teacher/student relationship

[bung bo]

There is a thread about this on the main forum, but I consider this one more mature and would like to hear what people of the mantis community have to say about this. I know non-mantis people browse this forum and you are welcome to respond. Just keep it serious and on-topic. This is something I think about a lot. What do some of you consider good, bad, unacceptable?

[Chief Fox]

I also think about this stuff a lot. My sifu works full time at another job and runs his kung fu school part time. I respect his dedication to his art.

We both keep our relationship as Student/Teacher. We exchange videos sometimes and I try to set a good example in class for the other students.

His school is in need of help in the area of marketing. I'm a graphic designer/web designer so I have a certain amount of experience in this area. I try to help where I can but I think he is reluctant to ask because he would not be able to pay me. I try to tell him that I don't require payment.

I have helped him on a few projects but that is it. He also knows that I have a full time job and a family so this is also a reason for him not to ask.

[unixfudotnet]

We have a common respect and willingness to help each other. Someone I can talk to openly and I believe it is the other way around, though like friends, I am not as close as students who have just been around longer.

Seems it is like a family, we have each other's phone numbers and get along great. If he can not do class sometime, I understand, life does happen. I feel happy that he is willing to teach me. He also understands if I am not able to make it in, yet jokes around about it when I come in next, hehe.

I love going to class, even if the work is hard sometimes :)

Class is more one on one instruction, with no question too small or rejected. As long as I am willing to learn and put forth the effort, then he will keep teaching me :D Plus I seem to be a fast learner and get things quickly (most the time), heh.

I love my teacher/student relationship. He runs the school as a side job and spends time there away from his family for the art and students, as he has for many many years. Just wish I was a senior student so I could pick up a class or two to help him out sometimes :-D

[WanderingMonk]

expectation

what is acceptable expectation?

Chinese culturally has one set of expectation.
1. very traditional: father and son type relationship
2. less traditional: senior to junior relationship; i.e. mentor/apprentice

American culturally has a different set of expectation.
1. more traditional: senior to junior; i.e.,coach/student
2. less traditional: friends.

depending on their expectation, it determine what they view as acceptable and unacceptable.

[devout]

a teacher leaves a mark. good, ill, its there. its yours to keep, and that being so, treat him or her with regards to that

[shang wu]

This is as varied as people. There is no set relationship, and relationships change with time. It’s easy to control people by setting out all the rules of conduct bow here bow there, yes sir no sir, jump! how hi sir? But I ask what kind of relationship is this. At the heart of a good relationship at first there is respect, then trust then over time attachment & love. Am I getting to touchy feely , I think anyone that has had a long term relationship w/ a teacher knows this , but as a student and a teacher I must say that freedom and letting go so the student can grow is the true test of the relationship.

[bung bo]

devout--you're still out there?!?! Drop in anytime! I've dropped many'a reference in class that no one would get but you.

Chief Fox--My shrfu has a full-time job as well. He has a family. He has a slew of other responsibilities to attend to. But he's there 4 times a week teaching class. Sick, injured, you name it, but he's there putting up with slow learners like me. If you put the effort forward, he will teach till the cows come home.

unixfudonet--Good answer. I love going to class, too. Even when I'm injured and I know I am going to hurt some, it's really great to be with my friends. We hang out some outside of class, but I live far from all of them.

shang wu--I would like to meet you. My shrfu has said good things about you.

Great stuff, dudes. Thanks for reponding. Keep it coming.

[yu shan]

Nice thread, I wonder if this has been brought up here before? This is a subject that is dear to my heart. Because in my little history of living the kung fu life, I have had many teachers. Not all of them do I hold close, but the few that I do, they have found a place in my soul. I think of these men often. True, the "mark" Devout speaks of can be ill or good, Shifu`s are human beings. I reflect back on training with teachers all the time. I share these stories with students, I feel this is important. I never bad mouth a teacher... I`ll take the "ill mark" and make it a learning and positive experience. I feel lucky to have had the experiences with these men, good or bad... I learned! Men who took the time out of there lives to share KF with me did leave a mark! And I`m trying my best to leave mine. And yes, as sad as it is, we do have to let students go to explore, they know my door will always be open.

[sayloc]

I agree with yushan. You can benefit from the good and bad experiences with an instructor. My father taught me how to make a bad situation work in your favor. That is one of the most valuble lessons I have learned and try to pass it on to my students. This is also very important in fighting.

I agreee with yushan again, Insturctors are just human beings like everyone else (Although I have known many that think they are much higher beings than the rest of us walking the earth).

I teach my students that the reason for the high levels of control (the yes sirs, no sirs and standing at attention when a technique is being desribed) is because the techniques being taught were used at one point in time as killing techniques on the battle field. They are still lethal. I have many things happening in my class at one time and it is important that everyone understands exactly what they are to do. I have found that it is ussually the slacker that hurts the other people who are attentive.

This safety issue is another reason why only one person is in charge of a class. People get hurt when the instructor is teaching somthing one way and the hot shot student comes behind your back and says "no I saw it this way" . Ths is very dangerous especially when doing partner drills.

If I have a senior student running a class for me, I will walk up and ask HIM if there is anything he needs help with. If I see him doing somthing that is not right, I will approach him in private and make the corection, not in front of thestudents.

I know my school would not be doing as well as it is if it were not for the things my students have taught me. Things like business aspects,computers, marketing,........the list goes on.

[BebopBelt]

At my school things are pretty traditional yes/no sir/mam bowing to black belts etc. But I think the most important thing and something I really value that my Sifu implements is a good balance between formality and relaxed atmosphere. We are respectful and know to follow the rules, else we'll be doing pushups but at the same time it's okay to mess up we won't be ridiculed or looked down on. Respect is a mutal thing.

I would say as one person suggested it is more like a father/child relationship. He knows best he has been training for a very long time so I have alot of respect for him. I know that as long as I try hard and practice then that is enough. I'm not the most coordinated person in the world but he lets me know that's okay and works with me without making me feel foolish. At the same time I have seen him give out hugs and when I asked him about the flag on our wall he took the time to look at it with me and point out what it means and what the colors of the sashes on our swords symbolize. I haven't really had a father figure in my life and I would say my Sifu is a male figure I can say that I truly respect, ALOT.

[yu shan]

I have been told, these treasures our Teachers share with us... are GOLD! I happen to agree with this. Gold thrown at our feet!

My folks do not have to do the push up thing, it never gets to that point. One thing that I worry about is, students that come and go! I mean quality men that train for a month or so and then leave for about the same amount of time. And then want to come back, and yes my door is open to them. In my history with KF, I never left, took time off, just kept plugging away. I get frustrated with these type of students. They get alot of my energy and time, I do not understand this behavior.

Bebop

It is refreshing to here how you feel about your Shifu.

[sayloc]

yushan

I agree...Gold....pure Gold!!


I think the problem is that we take the art as a serious way of life. 99% of the people who walk in the door do not have that kind of interest. They are the ones who just want to get some exercise or tell people "Yeah...Im a kung fu guy". Many people are talkers. I came across a post two weeks ago on the main forum from one of my x students. The kid trained for about 3 months (once a week when he wasnt at play practice) and even then he could only get half way through class without being to the point of throwing up. You should have heard him post...sounded like he had trained for 20 years! You guessed it. He didnt have the respect to tell me he could not attend class anymore.

I do hope I touched his life in a positive way.

I see teaching kung fu like mining for diamonds. You have to go through alot of fill dirt just to get to a good diamond.

The old saying goes if you have a good sifu you should take care of him. I think it goes the other way also, if you have a good student you have to take care of them.

By the way, I have alot of people who still owe me for December. Do you think that may have somthing to do with christmas?:)

I hope thier friends enjoy the gifts I bought for

[shang wu]

Hey guys
For as long as I have been teaching this for a living (some time in the late seventies) it has always been this way, for me anyway and many I talk to. The best cure is clear expectations in regards to all things, training, attendance, and protocol; we experience most of our challenge in the gray zone. Be clear. Our suffering comes from a desire for things to be other than they are. All in all teaching martial art is about as good as it gets in my view, what else would I rather be doing? When I was a kid I knew what I wanted to do, and I have had the GOOD fortune to be able to do it. Smooth seas don’t make good sailors. I mean look at us we are a different breed; all we have been talking about comes with it. There is no business, or relationship that dose not have it’s challenge, this is a fact of life, and this lifestyle is awesome.

[sayloc]

Shang Wu

I agree the best theing to do is make things clear. Even though I do this I still have some the problems. Usually thhose people weed themselves out and are not a problem for long.

I still do not do the contracts or belt system. I know that this works for many people, I cant sell it if I dont believe in it. I dont have what it takes to be the pushy "Karate salesman". If I wanted to do that I would go into "sales" and make some real money.

Keeping to the student instructor relashionship:

I do find it harder not to try to get as much $$ out of a student while he/she is with me as I can. I see them buying cd's, $60 jeans, taking expensive vacations, slamming $50 worth of booze in one night, and I think "why should I feel guilty about trying to get just a little extra for somthing that is good for them"?

All that being said i have to agree, it is one of the best jobs going. I have spent 15 years in the corp world and have been doing this full time for a number years. I could not imagine going back and working for someone again. Although I try to keep the attitude that my students are my costumers and I work for them evry day. It is still a little different.

I have seen you in a demo about 12 years ago. All I have to say about it is MAN, YOU ARE GOOD!

[yu shan]

Yes Sir we are differant. I have to say, I see men my age and most of them look terrible. I believe Kung Fu has been good to me, mind, body and spirit. It has also introduced me to some of the most noble and talented men/women. There is something about our kung fu, that seems to attract quality.

After reading the info provided here by most competent Teachers, I have learned yet again. Maybe I do have to spell things out a little more clear. Sometimes I assume that this is being shared by older brothers and sisters in the club. One thing that causes discontent with me is, attendance. For myself, I was not allowed to miss class, nuff said. I only have four classes a week, students need to take advantage of this. What do you do about students that do this train for a month or so and take a hiatus. Then come back and do all over again... this burns me out. Gentlemen, are my expectations too high? I know how Shifu`s taught me, and I am trying my best to pass this on. All I expect is, show up and train, pay me, and be the best person they possible can be. I try to teach the "goodness" of KF thru gradual and persistent efforts. I try to lead by example, whether I`m doing Beng Bu, talking about keeping good credit, or chivalry. This generation seem very self centered and babied. Oh well, what do you do!

[-N-]

Originally posted by yu shan
What do you do about students that do this train for a month or so and take a hiatus. Then come back and do all over again... this burns me out. If this was becoming a problem for me, and it was disrupting the rest of the class, I would tell them to find another school... one that could accomodate their schedule, and doesn't mind just taking their money. I teach serious students without charge. Non serious students don't get in the group, no matter how much money they have.

When my senior classmate moved to LA, he would drive up to SF every week to attend class. I had 2 people in my own group for several years that would drive 90 minutes each way to come to work out. (Try driving a stick shift back home with leg cramps after a 4-5 hour workout ;) )

That said, sometimes you have a student that just can't attend class as often as you both would like. I have one person who is 75 miles away at College. He comes to work out during breaks, and when his course load permits. He's not making much progress right now, so I have him use his time to focus on quality basics.

When he attends class, I have everybody review some basic material that is suitable for the person who has been away. Then I have the ongoing students work on advanced details and variations of the basics, while the returning student stays with the simpler things. He gets to see a little of the next level material, and he gets to work on stuff that needs work.

Each time before he leaves for school, I give him some kung fu homework. I show him just one or two things. By that time, he has seen the advanced version of how to do the technique. And while he's away, he's supposed to work on the detailed breakdown of the basics that build into the advanced application. The next time he comes back, he's supposed to show me that he can do exactly as I've shown him.

Since he doesn't have much time for working out, last time I gave him just 2 things to work on. Jumping down from a chair in a specific way, and a single advancing footwork, done in a very specific way. Sometimes the secret technique is just to practice something the right way, 10,000 times.

Yu Shan, I think you and I are of the mind that students earn the right to learn new things from the teacher. The teacher doesn't have to show anyone anything. The occasional student can stay on what he needs work on. The rest of the class can work on something that they ready to learn.

I'll tell the people in my group about how it was with my own teacher so they can learn the "proper" kung fu values and attitude. So they heard about the new student that my teacher liked, because he practiced circle entering footwork for 2 hours straight until his legs were shaking, and he was soaking wet. They heard about the students that my teacher ignored because they stood around and talked instead of practicing. They heard about how we practiced the same application over and over and over, because we knew that if our teacher saw us doing so, eventually he would come over and show us some special advanced detail or technique related to what we were practicing.

N.

[yu shan]

Sir I like the way you think. Your students are lucky to have a Shifu like you. I like to think students earn their "new" material. But I should explain more about these that take the hiatus. Some are serious students that seem to drop off the face of the earth, then re-appear. A very few, are very dedicated but seem to have to take time off when-ever they have a life crisis, girlfriend breakup or girlfriend something... etc etc. Some of my young bucks have not learned how to handle females in their lives. Again, I have loads of experience to share. Sometimes they listen. It is the serious student that suddenly leaves that I wonder about. Why can`t they talk to me? I`m a laid back kind of guy. I could never leave my Shifu... period! I guess this generation lacks in their communication skills. FWIW, I have made it known, I will be giving people the boot, for not showing proper respect. Whether it is paying or leaving without speaking to me or even missing training. I feel that I deserve professional students, God knows what I went thru to earn and learn the jewels of KF. This needs to be passed down.

[sayloc]

Yushan

I hav e had serious students leave also. People I thoght would never leave or would only for a good reason after they told me. Not the case.

I had another student tell me why he thought these few dedicated students left with out a word. He said that these people knew that I trained all day, taught in the evenings and trained more when I got home. They knew it was my whole life besides the family. He thinks that they were to ashamed to face me and tell me that they quit.

I think that is how the guys who sell the contracts make the money. People would rather pay for 6 months and not go to class than face someone and tell them they quit.

I tried calling a guy who stopped showing up that I thoght was dedicated and loved kung fu. He acted like I was trying to sell him a cedit card. I will NEVER call a student again. If my seniors like them they usully call. If the person was not well liked they wont get a call.

[shang wu]

Yu Shan
I am gray and balding, and have found that impermanence is a reality. We must teach because this is what we have chosen to do, like a fish must swim, birds fly. People mature at different times and in different ways, and then some never seem too. Your measure is what you give. You will have these trials as long as your doors are open. Keep your attention on those that carry the truth of our way. There is a difference between martial arts and the way, they do not always coexist, the latter is much harder to grasp than any technique. You keep saying that you can’t understand this behavior; it is not a mater of understanding, but one of acceptance and non-attachment that will lead to your feeling better. Keep up the good work the arts need dedicated teachers like you.
Peace man

[bung bo]

sayloc--You're theory is the same as mine about seniors flaking off without a word. There have been students who were around before me who I thought were really into gong fu and they just...stop coming to class. They might be ashamed to call.

I REALLY believe communication is key. I recently had to take a large amount of time off because of an injury, but I kept my shifu updated on my condition and how things were going. Every induvidual time I've had to skip class(school, work, sick)I called my shifu and he says "thanks for calling." Too many students don't do this.

[yu shan]

We were posting at the same time. After reading what my superior had to say, I cancelled my post, it did not matter anymore. What you say has much more meaning to me, thank you. I will learn to accept but to learn non-attachment? These students are like my children. I have bonded spiritually and take these individuals serious. This is why it hurts. How does a teacher become non-attached? Thank you in advance. And I am grey in the dome also, wisdom I only hope! Peace back to you Sir.

Jim

[sayloc]

Bung Bo

It sounds like you are a responsible person and value the training that you Instructor shares with you.

All I ask from my students is to do what they say. If they say they can only come two times a week I can accept that. If they say they are going to be there they had better show up. I take the time to develop a lesson plan for each class according to who is going to be there. If they dont show up or show up late it drives me crazy.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I would just like to say for you instructors not to overlay your beliefs on your students. By that I mean just because Kung Fu is everything in your life don't assume your students feel the same way. That might tell you it is but they could be telling you what they think (by your words and actions) you want to hear.

One of the problems I've seen in the past is teachers who have given up everything in their lives for Kung Fu and expect their students to do the same. Then they get angry and disappointed when the student doesn't feel the same way.

My first Kenpo teacher had a student that I only met once when I started. He wanted to be a singer and he trained in MA. He was a brown belt about to test for black. When the casinos opened up in Atlantic City he landed a singing job there. He quit the school to focus on his career. My teacher got extremely angry at him, kicked him out and said bad things about him.

As it turned out my teacher was the bass player (and good too) in a band when he was younger. He was also training MA and would miss band practice to train. Finally the rest of the band told him he choose one or the other. He chose MA. Because that was his choice he expected all his students to make the same choice. Most of them didn't. When I left it was the same.

If you run a commercial school or are charging for lessons you need to let everyone decide their level of participation. That's why they don't contact you about leaving. They're afraid you won't understand. There is such a thing (believe it or not) as being too hard core. What might be a weak excuse to you could be very important to your student.

[Frogman]

I consider myself a hobbyist at best. I truly love KF but I have a life that does not offer me the luxury of training more then I do. The American dream. I make it to class two to three times a week and generally work out at home once or twice a week to make up for time. I always call when I’m not going to be in, or am going to be late. Have to agree with BungBo open lines of communication is the key. I think that the Sifu student relation is much more then retailer customer relationship, it’s more personal. You pay but your not really a customer, if you are, you need a new Sifu. It may be hard for people to face the fact that they can’t or don’t want to train anymore. Maybe they found something else, PM isn’t for everyone. I don’t understand that myself but I guess we can chalk it up with acceptance. Thing is, it’s hard to tell a MA instructor you want to quit after they train you to never give up. So to speak. I remember reading that it takes about 2000 students to get one good Sifu. So what is the ratio of serious to hobbyist? I know when I left my previous schools I only talk to the one instructor about it and he did put a guilt trip on me. The other schools I just stop going and that was it, no calls, no worries.

46 You plan your class around your students?



May your holidays be grand.

RibHit,
fm

[sayloc]

Frogman

How did you know I was 46 years old?

What is a serious student?

A serious student is the student who tells me what they want out of the arts and what thier priorities are. Or at least what they think they want. I have people who tell me that they can only come two times a week. I am fine with that. Just try to show up two time a week. Thats all. Let me know if you are going to be missing a week. If they tell me what there priorities are then I can give them the education that they want. I dont believe in trying to teach two person sets to a guy who will only be there two times a week. I will just teach them apps.

Yes I plan for every class I teach. I see my students as customers. They are paying $$ and deserve the best that I can give them. I sometimes get annoyed when the advanced level guys dont show if I have planned something for them. I dont get that upset though. I just use the prepared class for the next night.

[isol8d]

Yu Shan/Say Loc/Shing Wu

I was just wondering how large your student base is?

You make me feel bad about all the times I've missed classes! 4 years ago, I would miss class because I was too lazy to go. Now I miss class only if life supercedes my ability to make it there.


But I never thought to call unless I was sick or injured.

[sayloc]

Not enough. About 75

[bung bo]

sayloc--Wow, 75 seems like a lot to me. But you do this full-time. I value the instruction I have recieved very much. I completely agree what said about pure gold. If I say I'm coming in to class, I will make a very big effort to do what I said. Who knows, someone might be depending on me for something; and if I don't show, they are stood up. Anyway, I don't want the reputation people like that get. I like to be early for class. I think it says a lot about someone if they are late all the time.

[yu shan]

Kung Fu is not everything to me. I have a full time job and I teach KF at night and on the weekends. I am a husband and father. I have alot of irons in the fire, kung fu is just a hobby. But I do take this hobby very serious, and my students.

[devout]

A thousand apologies in advance for my signature verbosity….

I at no time would want to purport myself as any kind of scholarly pundit on the subject of Eastern martial culture, and count myself as chief amongst the rankest of amateurs of pugilist, as well as a troubling student. However, on the subject of the Western counterpart, and its myriad of letters and methodologies, this I can speak of with less fear of misstep, and herein I think lies a convergence of contradictions that beset the Teacher and Student in this arena.

Admittedly, fewer people ascribe as many historical and philosophical precepts to their daily life as I do, and this is to their better, as they probably have better social and sex lives than I, owing greatly to this fact. That having been said, I think that chief amongst the pantheon of problems beleaguering the modern Eastern Combative instructor is the philosophical/cultural antithesis that is in play in the structure of martial arts, and the acrimony of thought that is to sub sequentially follow.

In the notion of the West, that is until more recent times, the combat instructor was akin to a servant, hired out in the same manner as a mercenary, to impart and instruct the people of consequence who would have the where with all to access such learning. It was one of many things that was expected of the upper class, and was given its place in a myriad of disciplines. In fact, the thralls of ancient Rome were more often than not freed slaves with the blood of many on their hands from the sand arena of the gladiatorial games. The master at arms, the war fighter, the duelist, were all relegated to these places, necessary elements, and though lifted higher than the assassin or executioner, they were to be functionaries of the whole society and its various hierarchies.

Granted, this seldom enters the mind of the average student, however just as in all things that we involve are self in, our ancestors thoughts are carried with us. We live out the bedrock of culture founded before the time of out modern nations.

The art becomes part of a larger construct of things that we are encouraged to be mindful of, the notion of success, civics, duty, family all these things reaching back far into our Western heritage back to the times of the Caesars, regardless of our European or American addresses. It is a time of social and economical glut that virtually all of us, the conformist and iconoclast alike, are working in concert to unconscious and sleeping social machinations that are as intractable as we are incapable of extricating ourselves from.

Now conversely, the Eastern combat instructor is operating from a diametrically opposed paradigm, where the notion of singularity of purpose, unfettered attention, and total meditative attention to perfection is the key element. How then does one rectify itself with the other? The problem becomes doubly confounding when the instructors themselves are of Western origin, and are themselves at war with their conditioned nature, as we all are despite our relative levels of understanding.

True, the general ennui and lack of tenacity is something of a generational peculiarity, a frustrating one to boot, but the root of that is less found in the individual, and more in his sociology. This would account for the dichotomy of the student who says one thing and does another. The conflict is self evident.

This more than any other reason is the need for the injection of Eastern thought into Western culture. Without the hybrid vigor of this most tenuous of marriages both cultures could slide into their own respective atavistic quagmires.

The teacher is as important as the priest.

And at the end of the day, we are all human

oh and by the way... my main reason for posting this was to make a grand excuse for myself being a truly crappy student (yu shan is a saint, don't let anyone say otherwise), so please just let the geek kid ramble. pay me no mind, and for the love of G-d don't go find any online resources (lexicons, concordances, any such thing) to make me seem like a ripe piker. collegiate philosophy and AP high school Latin was so far in the past for me
that I'm sure my Socratic method is for the dogs. I really don't want to be pwn3d, so be nice.