Forms...

[Knifefighter]

Forms could potentially be beneficial to a training program if:

- You don't spend more than about 10-15% of your time on them.

- They aren't "pre-set" in terms of having more than one or two techniques following one another in the same order each time.

- You make sure you never pause and "strike the pose".

- The movements are very close to the same movements you do when you are actually fighting and not somehow magically reinterpreted when you have to use them against a resisting opponent who is fighting back.

- You aren't "searching for hidden techniques" in them.

- You make them more like boxing type shadow boxing with feints, fakes, and set-up movements.

[Rockwood]

Hi knife.

Good ideas.

I talked to an IMA teacher who told me something very eyeopening.

He said that:
Forms are NOT choreographed fights. They are NOT, grab, punch, kick in that order type of thing.

In IMA there are only short, simple forms, for the most part.

They are designed such that each form teaches only one idea or in CHinese "Jing", a "rhythm" a type of body motion. This type of body motion can be used in many different ways, spontaneously in fighting.

It's true that each form also happens to contain the signature fighting moves of the style, but this is not the point. The point is to train Jing, rhythm, body movement.

For instance, in Ba Gua there is single palm change. If you think of it as turn, chop, grab, sweep you are doing it wrong.

The point is to learn a certain type of horizontal body rotation and how to keep the body alive and powerful thruought this type of movement. HOw it is specifically applied is all done spur the moment, spontaneous. Double palm change is concerned with power on a vertical axis, etc.

THis is very different from karate or tkd forms which are supposed to mimic a fight. This is absurd and has no use in real fighting, except perhaps as a way to remember your teacher's favorite moves.

IMA forms are NOT meant to be a mock fight and should never be used as such.

Made sense to me.

-Jess O

[MonkeySlap Too]

Forms are most useful for:

Training repetitive actions that used across a multitude of application. Making gross motions readily usable under stress.

training specific body mechanics, and training your self to make a more efficient method of moving an everyday occurence.

Neither of which can sit by themselves.

I practice 'form' constantly, in everything I do.

[Ai Lek Ou Seun]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
[]Forms could potentially be beneficial to a training program if:

- You don't spend more than about 10-15% of your time on them.

I think that's an individual thing. What I can agree on is that forms shouldn't be the ONLY way that you train.


- They aren't "pre-set" in terms of having more than one or two techniques following one another in the same order each time.

Why the restriction? I think it depends on the style. For styles that try to "barrage" their opponents, like CLF, you want to work on linking as many movements as possible together into a continous flow.


You make sure you never pause and "strike the pose".

Definitely.




- The movements are very close to the same movements you do when you are actually fighting and not somehow magically reinterpreted when you have to use them against a resisting opponent who is fighting back.

Think of long forms as .zip files. The information they contain is compressed into smaller and easier to work with format than the huge uncompressed file. It's distilled. Its up to the individual user to uncompress the information contained inside them. And thats what is referred to in Cantonese as Che Kuen or "tearing apart the fist."



- You aren't "searching for hidden techniques" in them.


That's stuff that needs to be done IN ADDITION to the form.



- You make them more like boxing type shadow boxing with feints, fakes, and set-up movements. [/B]

That's like uncompressing the .zip file, discarding half the information and then repacking it as if it contained all the information.

[Ai Lek Ou Seun]

Originally posted by Rockwood
[B]

He said that:
Forms are NOT choreographed fights. They are NOT, grab, punch, kick in that order type of thing.

In IMA there are only short, simple forms, for the most part.

The length of forms is style dependent but you are right about the first part.




They are designed such that each form teaches only one idea or in CHinese "Jing", a "rhythm" a type of body motion. This type of body motion can be used in many different ways, spontaneously in fighting.

That's the key, right there.....MANY different ways. Forms have to be unpacked to be used but they contain a lot of POTENTIAL ways to be used.




It's true that each form also happens to contain the signature fighting moves of the style, but this is not the point. The point is to train Jing, rhythm, body movement.

And those are things that you can't always get from practicing moves invidually on their own or in combos.




THis is very different from karate or tkd forms which are supposed to mimic a fight. This is absurd and has no use in real fighting, except perhaps as a way to remember your teacher's favorite moves.

IMA forms are NOT meant to be a mock fight and should never be used as such.

Even karate and Tae Kwon Do forms are not meant to mimic a fight. They train a certain kind of JING that can be used in many different situations.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ai Lek Ou Seun
The length of forms is style dependent but you are right about the first part. The longer the forms, the less likely any of it will be able to be used in a pressure situation

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ai Lek Ou Seun
That's stuff that needs to be done IN ADDITION to the form. If you are looking for hidden applications in a form, you would be better just making up your own stuff.

[David Jamieson]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Forms could potentially be beneficial to a training program if:

- You don't spend more than about 10-15% of your time on them.

- They aren't "pre-set" in terms of having more than one or two techniques following one another in the same order each time.

- You make sure you never pause and "strike the pose".

- The movements are very close to the same movements you do when you are actually fighting and not somehow magically reinterpreted when you have to use them against a resisting opponent who is fighting back.

- You aren't "searching for hidden techniques" in them.

- You make them more like boxing type shadow boxing with feints, fakes, and set-up movements.

1- i think the amount of time you spend on forms is dependent on where you're at and how you are being taught. period. a system that is only forms and devoid of other augmentation and conditioning methods is virtually unheard of in tcma.

2 - forms are like combos strung together. they generally are two or three moves that work with each other, then another set of movements etc etc. In my opinion, effective forms that can be readily extrapolated from usually are sets of 2 - 4 moves in a row much along the same lines as when you drill with set ups and biggies, or destructions and counters. example: jab jab hook, or jab, hook, cross, uppercut sequence. forms also include stepping or footwork techniques for entry, crossing, etc etc. They include a lot of the things you need physically to move as a fighter.

3 - stop and pose is performance wushu or musical karate which are artistic expression of martiality. it is a ritualized form of martial arts.

4- textbook vs for real is like that in anything. the forms represent the signature characteristics of how one should move while fighting. I agree that the point of the form is to be able to use the shape effectively. I would also add that this is not the easiest thing to do when it comes to the complexity of some styles of kungfu. There are within forms the most basic of techniques such as straight punches and kicks and the basics are bread and butter. The form only makes your basics better anyway.

5-there aren't any hidden techniques, but in time you can start finding other uses for any number of things. most of the uses of teh techniques in kungfu are readily apparent. Is it all effective? It depends on the practitioner.

6- who says that isn't done? that is what extrapolation and free hands is all about. Once again the time practiced is reflected in the expression of the "style" in a fight. But the basic skills are there.

Doing forms isn't going to hinder fighting spirit. It isn't going to decrease skill in the art either. Doing forms is an exercise like any other. It is an efficient way of learning mostly. It gives a lot of information in chunked strings that progressively build from the last towards the next.

I agree that fighting isn't about forms. But neither is skipping rope and running.

[yenhoi]

No one skips rope or runs more then 10-15% of the time they train. That would be crazy no matter what "level" someone is.

Any method of training will be limited to only attribute development without a real-live-partner involved.

;)

[SiuHung]

CMA forms are mostly conceptual, training movement patterns and energies in accordance to the strategies and strengths of the system they belong to. Also, many forms contain some of the supplementary training for strength, power, and conditioning that should also be extracted and practiced outside of the confines of form.

Speaking of which, the fighting techniques within the forms should also be extracted and practiced separately and in free flow. I do agree that forms should not be the emphasis of training. There's a balance between basic/foundational skills, conditioning type work, solo practice/forms, and contact work with partners. Contact work with partners should take priority whenever possible in a progressive fashion.

Mike

[TAO YIN]

Forms are actually not that bad. Everything is inside them. It is your responsibility to pull the everythings out of the forms. Forms teach auto kinematic response, which is a good thing for any martial artist to know.

This thread should be, again, in relation to two martial artists or two fighters, or whatever, fighting.

It is normal to teach a beginner the idea of block and punch. It is normal to have said beginner try this on a resisting opponent once he understands the concept. It is normal to teach a beginner the idea of jab and shoot. It is normal to have said beginner try this on a resisting opponent once he understands the concept.

[David Jamieson]

No one skips rope or runs more then 10-15% of the time they train. That would be crazy no matter what "level" someone is.
yen hoi, i'm gonna call you on that. running is a huge part of an actual fighters training regimen. certainly far more than 10 - 15%.

I would bet that it is over 25% of the routine.

I would also say (actually reiterate) that you will find it hard to find any professional fighter who does not run and who does not run a lot.

guys will argu about this, but I find it to be pointless. Fighters run to gain endurance.

kungfu peeps do forms to learn their body, amongst other things.

if you are going to be an actual pro-fighter, you have to train like an athlete.

[Royal Dragon]

Alot of Kung Fu guys run in addition to thier forms too though

[David Jamieson]

true dat

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
I would bet that it is over 25% of the routine. I don't think that's correct. It's my understanding that most pro fighters only run twice a week. Of course, they also skip rope in addition to running.

Their sparring and bagwork also provides sport-specific conditioning levels.

So while they are working on conditioning a lot, running isn't 1/4 of their routine.

But what do I know?

[Ford Prefect]

I don't think that's correct. It's my understanding that most pro fighters only run twice a week. Of course, they also skip rope in addition to running.

You, sir, are correct. I didn't train extensively with any pro's, but on my college boxing team days, we trained 2-3 hours day for practice. That practice consisted of line drills, bag drills, mitt work, sparring, partner drills, etc. "After" practice was the only time we ran. That was generally only 30 minutes. Maybe 45 depending on how we were feeling after training for so long. Thing is we'd practice 5 days a week, but we rarely ran every day after practice. Nowhere near 25%. 10-15% is even pushing it.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Alot of Kung Fu guys run in addition to thier forms too though

it can't really be quantified though. I know far more who don't run than who do. That's where the school's training methods come in. sure, it's up to the individual to do these things, but if the school instututes it, you can ensure that every student is doing it. When that becomes recognized as being an integral part of the systems training, that's when you can quantify it.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
You, sir, are correct. I didn't train extensively with any pro's, but on my college boxing team days, we trained 2-3 hours day for practice. That practice consisted of line drills, bag drills, mitt work, sparring, partner drills, etc. "After" practice was the only time we ran. That was generally only 30 minutes. Maybe 45 depending on how we were feeling after training for so long. Thing is we'd practice 5 days a week, but we rarely ran every day after practice. Nowhere near 25%. 10-15% is even pushing it.

that's similar to what I've encountered. When training for fights, we run two days per week, no more than three.

[Ai Lek Ou Seun]

Running is good training for whatever athletic pursuit. I used to run a few times a week on a variable incline treadmill with 3 lb hand weights.

I had to stop because I started to develop plantar fascitis.

Now I jump rope, do forms, spar and bag work.

It is hard to match the aerobic intensity and duration doing these other things but they keep me in reasonably good shape.

Good enough shape to go a few rounds. :D

[red5angel]

No one skips rope or runs more then 10-15% of the time they train

actually I beg to differ, runners spend more time running then on anything else. That underlines KF's point, however, I also spend quite a bit of time, something more like 30-40% would be my guess, because 1- I enjoy it and 2 - I get alot of benefit from it. Other then actually doing my art, it is the only real aerobic exercise I do except for the occasional scrapper routine.

[WinterPalm]

I think this really depends on the level of skill that the student or Sifu has. I am still a beginner, been about four years, and I practice the forms a lot. I'd say they make up close to forty% of my training. The reason being that I am new and need to develop my body though the core forms and basics so that I can move as specified in the form.
Next to this I practice footwork pretty much every time I work out for fifteen to twenty minutes.
Conditioning, depending on where I'm at for Iron Palm usually takes about half an hour. Right now I hit the steel shot for about twenty minutes.
The things I mix up into my workout consist of heavy bag and wave master hitting, shadow sparring, double end bag, wall bag, and all sorts of basically whatever I feel like doing. I exercise with a sandbag for additional strength and conditioning.
I would say forms usually take up anywhere from thirty to ninety percent depending on the day. If I have a class that night I'll usually just practice a form for an hour before hand.
Other days I do one form once and then shadow spar and hit things, footwork, and always, always, the ever imperative meditation. Got to get that aggression and ego down! Down boy!

[ZIM]

Originally posted by red5angel
runners spend more time running then on anything else. Considering how bad my kung fu is, this is what I should do. :D

[yenhoi]

Runners? wtf??

40% of your training time on running? Thats crazy.

:eek: :rolleyes: :eek:

[yenhoi]

"Runners" would have different goals and objectives then "fighters" or "martial artists" would.

Goals and Objectives are how individuals, coaches, teachers, schools, systems, methods decide what and which training methods are best (or not best) for training specific attributes and skills or sets of attributes and skills.

Lets ask some fighters about how much time they spend running and how it ranks on their list of goals and objectives and effectiveness.

40% of training time spent running? 40% is a boatload of wasted drills, sparring, bagwork, etc for a "fighter" or "martial artist." Probably not enough time running for a "runner."

imo.... ;)

[yenhoi]

25% maybe. Still crazy, but only a maybe. Smart fighters dont run that much anymore, its 2004.

:eek: