a parable

[dfl]

Disclaimer: the events and characters depicted herein are fictional. Any resemblance to any event or person, living or dead, is purely coincidental.

Thus I have heard:
;-)
Once upon a time there was a driver who owned a Porsche 911. He could drive it pretty much everywhere he wanted to go, swiftly and without fuss. And life was good.
Then one day he heard on the radio that 95% of the cars on the road are front-engined, and he began to worry. In a moment of panic he opened up the front hood, and found (gasp!) there was no engine there. He ran around like a headless chicken until he remembered the Porsche had its engine in the back. But the panic did not go away and the idea that he was missing something important in life began to gnaw at him. He continued to drive his Porsche but the fun went out of it.
And then he heard on the radio the even more disturbing story that "real" drivers race. Those who don't race are sissy "dry land swimmers".
He began to imagine all the insulting stares he received from the
surrounding drivers whenever he stopped at a red light. "How could I ever go out and face the V12 stopped next to me at the light" was his constant nightmare.
Then one day the idea popped into his head that he could use the empty space in the front of the Porsche to drop in a V8 engine. With both front and rear engines revving he would have a total of 14 cylinders working at once! Even a V12 wouldn't be able to beat that! So with power tools in hand he proceeded to perform the grafting of a V8 engine into the Porsche. When the dust settled, his creation looked like nothing Ferdinand Porsche ever dreamt of.
We are not sure how the car handled or whether it had maintenance issues, but the sound of 2 engines running at once was supposed to be great. The last thing we heard from our hero was he was thinking of jacking up the chassis and adding monster tires so it could go where humvees fear to tread.
The moral to this story? I'm not sure there is any.
And now we return you back to your regularly scheduled programming.
;-)

[Ernie]

great story

but the funniest part is that you considered Wing chun on the level of a 911 :D

and that it was driving down the road of life doing just fine ,

let me edit in

once the so called 911 [ more like VW thing ]

had the nerve to leave it safe drive way were it spent most of the time practicing how to start , and go in gear and back one foot go forward 2 feet

it came up on the freeway on ramp and lacked the ability to get up to speed with the rest of the modern cars just zipping by

so our sad little Zoloft VW Thing went back to the drive way in front of it's home and made itself feel better by saying how wrong those modern cars were

and one day they will break down and how they would work so much better if they study the model T

and all the little VW things Gathered and formed groups and convinced themselves that they never needed to drive on that silly freeway

but yet they had so may oppinions about it hmmmm ?

the moral of the story is

there are always 3 sides to every story , yours, mine and the truth

sorry just couldn't help myself

back to water cooler talk on the local drive way :cool:

[yylee]

Great story Dan!

With that V14 engine, just the first gear with have enough brute strength to conqour the road. No need to learn clutching either, just floor the throttle and let go of the clutch, the 911 will run just fine. ;)

No need to worry about maintenance, it will be a while before all 14 cylinders broke down.

[YongChun]

Originally posted by Ernie

it came up on the freeway on ramp and lacked the ability to get up to speed with the rest of the modern cars just zipping by

:

Then there is the guy who gets himself an armored car and just drives onto the freeway whether anyone is coming or not all the while saying how those drivers that are careful and wait and pick the perfect timing are just fools.

Ray

[t_niehoff]

Stories are great, and a person can find one or create one to present any "moral" they want.

Instead of stories, a more productive way to approach things is to look for evidence. In medicine, there are all kinds of "stories" about this or that remedy, this or that treatment, etc. You can trust the stories, the anecdotes, theory, etc. ("this crystal will cure my headaches") and take your chances or you can put your trust in evidence, genuinely tested results. Same with weight-loss methods, physical training methods, etc.

[reneritchie]

Hey Dan,

Happy holidays to you and yours!

[Ernie]

Originally posted by YongChun
Then there is the guy who gets himself an armored car and just drives onto the freeway whether anyone is coming or not all the while saying how those drivers that are careful and wait and pick the perfect timing are just fools.

Ray

ahhhh iron body vw thing hmmmm instead of learning how to drive and avoid damage , just make yourself a crash test dummy got it :D

[SAAMAG]

It's obvious people don't like being told that what they're doing is a not enough (in terms of fighting). It's not that it's a waste of time persay, but not enough for the totality of fighting. In time people learn, or they don't. It only matters to the individual.

I've kinda taken a step back to look at things as a whole, and see that people here do what they do for different reasons, some prioritize the comradery, some prioritize physical fitness, some fighting, and others enlightenment of the person (mind, body and soul). Some don't care to think about whether or not they can fight, and some simply don't want to come to the realization of it. In either case truth is truth, no matter what people think. And like I said already, it only matters to the individual.

No sense in beating a dead horse right?

My dai sihing said the other day "You're training is YOUR training, you set your pace, and how hard you train. Because when it comes down to it, you're going to be the one fighting alone, and however you trained will dictate how well you do."

Happy holidays everyone!

[Ernie]

Van,
no worries , and your right not everyone wants to fight [ though every one seems to have a oppinion on fighting :D ]

i for one am glad most people don't fight , be a nasty world everybody did

this is a fun thread . nice change of pace

so why not poke a the ones who take things to serious a little :D

[SAAMAG]

True, this is a much lighter way of having the same ol argument!

Kinda like smiling while you insult someone!! :D Which I sooo love to do while Im driving on the highway. People drive so stupid around the holidays.

[Ernie]

Yep you’re right again

I look at it this way, [when the time comes then you will know]

Every one has there own timing, I have seen this allot while I was training through out the years, some people are just sick and train with killer intent from jump [I have been accused of that]
Others just like going some place and being part of some thing

But then something happens, they spar a boxer or get punked or loss a fight some form of reality check kicks in and suddenly they wake up.

Like the blinders have been removed and the get honest about themselves and there training

But until then they’re just living a dream and there is nothing wrong with that, some people are lucky and get to live in a dream UN checked forever.

So it does us no good to keep ‘beating a dead horse ‘ or using a dead horse =)

Just let them be, and experience will be the teacher

All we can do is recommend they go out and get some experience.

Problem is wing Chun lineage and Sifu are very good at the David karish thing [other martial arts as well]

A lot of Sifu worship and lineage worship and fictional story worship going on

Only thing that can snap you out of that dream, is a bad experience, that causes you to evaluate thing based on you the individual

But this is the holiday season no need to wish bad experiences on anyone, go out stuff a red envelope with lucky money send it to your super sifu, get a new tattoo with yip mans face on your butt, and be merry
:D :D :D :D

[AndrewS]

Parable aside- there are a few reasons this dichotomy between the fighting and non-fighting camps run so deep. Speaking as someone on the 'you've gotta fight' side, of the 'escalating progressive live drill' faction here are the reasons for my rancor towards those who worship the theory:

<'Non-fighting sorts' please note, these are the reasons you p*ss me off, not the reasons you're wrong>

1). One reasons I love fighting is its essential truth. In the moment of application, you're hit or you get hit, in control or out of control. It's real and it's true, and to claim that some contrived shell is that moment is a lie and an abomination. I think this is the core of why a number of people here speak pretty sharply about the need for fighting. To us, it is truth, and I, for one, deeply love the truth.

2). The truth is painful. To claim another thing which lacks that pain is the same truth is to discount the pain one endures and enjoys in pursuing that truth.

3). I see training as a means of imparting skills which can save your life and being. I care about the people I have taught and think that real impact, real energy are the best ways to gauge and enhance their progress. To me, to say you're teaching self-defense but never put someone under pressure is a lie which can get someone badly hurt.

Later,

Andrew

[YongChun]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
Stories are great, and a person can find one or create one to present any "moral" they want.

Instead of stories, a more productive way to approach things is to look for evidence. In medicine, there are all kinds of "stories" about this or that remedy, this or that treatment, etc. You can trust the stories, the anecdotes, theory, etc. ("this crystal will cure my headaches") and take your chances or you can put your trust in evidence, genuinely tested results. Same with weight-loss methods, physical training methods, etc.

If you read articles in any field then you will have scientists on both sides of the fence, each making claims about how something according to their scientific proven methods studies. Both will cite hundreds of real studies to back up their claims. There is controversy about global warming, the effect of tobacco, the negative effects of drinking milk, the benefit of the war in Iraq, and thousands of other such topics.

The real world is not a simple model with a few well known factors. Fighting is the same. You can find dry land swimmers that can take out seasoned fighters because some of the former might just be tough and mentally bad guys with very short fuses, no fear of death and a hatred for all. From evidence you can only conclude something about your own performance fighting the particular type of people you fought. You can't draw a valid conclusion from that to prove that you can handle a different class of fighter or that someone else who doesn't do what you do will have worse or better results.

All one can do is report actual experiences where each experience serves as just one data point. The lifetime experiences of one individual don't add up to much and don't mean anything for anyone else and that's why ALL stories of past masters results are not given credibility by most.

There are the dryland swimmers who do forms, drills, sparring, weights, fitness etc. Then there are the real fighters who really fight. Then there are the sports fighters who fight with rules to maximum intensity within those rules against known opponents of a known skill level such as in Pride/Ulimate/K1 etc. A fourth category is people who only talk big, talk tough but don't belong to the fighter group or the sports fighter group. They are fighter wanabees who can't hang out with the big boys in Pride/Ultimate/K1/Boxing because they have little of relevance to say there. These people are bathtub swimmers and can make lots of big waves to impress the others who are in the same bathtub as them.

[old jong]

"Bathtub swimmers"!....Great!...I also know people who drink from the toilet!...(really!)

[YongChun]

Originally posted by old jong
"Bathtub swimmers"!....Great!...I also know people who drink from the toilet!...(really!)

Now we just have to relate the toilet drinkers to some type of fighter category.

[old jong]

If it's water related!...;)

[t_niehoff]

Hey Andrew,

Thought you might enjoy this -- from an article on what it takes to be a good boxer

"The science of boxing (and I think this applies to any fighitng method) requires the following;

First, that the boxer enjoy fighting. ("To begin with, you enjoy the fight itself," Rocky Marciano wrote in his autobiography.)

Second, that the boxer be ready to receive as much pain as he gave. ("You gotta enjoy the ones you take, just like the ones you give out," Larry Holmes told Ralph Wiley of Sports Illustrated.)

Third, that the boxer enjoys training. ("The teacher can only show you how to box," says Benjamin P. J. Lo. "The rest is all your work. The secret is to practice.")

Fourth, good sparring partners and opponents. As Joe Louis’ sparring partner George Nicholson told the New Yorker’s A. J. Liebling in 1939, "You can hire any kind of cheap help to get theirself hit. What you got to pay good money for is somebody that is not going to get hisself hit."

Can you imagine any boxer training like the theoreticians do and expect to really gain any significant performance benefits?

[t_niehoff]

Yongchun wrote:

If you read articles in any field then you will have scientists on both sides of the fence, each making claims about how something according to their scientific proven methods studies. Both will cite hundreds of real studies to back up their claims. There is controversy about global warming, the effect of tobacco, the negative effects of drinking milk, the benefit of the war in Iraq, and thousands of other such topics.

**Oh, please. So what do you think, that there exists no real knowledge, everything is just up in the air? I'm sorry, but you're really stretching with your rationalizations.

The real world is not a simple model with a few well known factors. Fighting is the same. You can find dry land swimmers that can take out seasoned fighters because some of the former might just be tough and mentally bad guys with very short fuses, no fear of death and a hatred for all.

**You're living in a fantasy world. Sure some nut can suckerpunch a good fighter, use a weapon, or something along the same vein, but in those cases no amount of marital arts training is going to help. In any other situation, no dry land swimmer is ever going to beat a good seasoned fighter.

From evidence you can only conclude something about your own performance fighting the particular type of people you fought. You can't draw a valid conclusion from that to prove that you can handle a different class of fighter or that someone else who doesn't do what you do will have worse or better results.

**More nonsense. People are able to tell their general performance level in all fields of athletics from their past performances, and that goes for martial arts. That's why they have rankings in boxing, belts in BJJ, etc. Keep rationalizing. As they say, "Denial isn't just a river in Egypt."

All one can do is report actual experiences where each experience serves as just one data point. The lifetime experiences of one individual don't add up to much and don't mean anything for anyone else and that's why ALL stories of past masters results are not given credibility by most.

**It is easy to tell what training methods work and which ones don't by the results produced by those trainees. Stories of past masters are just that -- stories.

There are the dryland swimmers who do forms, drills, sparring, weights, fitness etc. Then there are the real fighters who really fight.

**You just don't get it. Look -- the object goal of a martial art, regardless of the "style", is to increase one's fighting performance. There are many sytlistic approaches to do that. The only way -- ONLY -- to get significantly better at any -- ANY -- physical activity is to actually do the activity, and do it a lot. You can see this in every area of life. Only in martial arts, particularly Asian martial arts, do we see a reliance on magical thinking. Certainly one can do supplemental things, you can do things to aid in your development, but you absolutely must do the activity itself. The activity involved in marital arts is fighting (using that approach), not forms or drills. So, if one doesn't do the activity, and do it a lot -- that is regularly fight and do a great deal of it, they will never develop significant skills. Never. If you haven't done this, you haven't any significant fighting skills. If your sifu hasn't done it, he hasn't any significant fighting skills. Wake up and smell the coffee.

Then there are the sports fighters who fight with rules to maximum intensity within those rules against known opponents of a known skill level such as in Pride/Ulimate/K1 etc. A fourth category is people who only talk big, talk tough but don't belong to the fighter group or the sports fighter group. They are fighter wanabees who can't hang out with the big boys in Pride/Ultimate/K1/Boxing because they have little of relevance to say there. These people are bathtub swimmers and can make lots of big waves to impress the others who are in the same bathtub as them.

**Yup, keep rationalizing. And btw, it's not tough talk to say to become a good swimmer you've got to get into the pool and swim a lot (actually do the activity). It's hard work. I may have barely learned to swim and still can recognize that. Am I a "tough talker" to tell folks by the side of the pool that unless they get in the water, they'll never develop any genuine swimming skills? That's not chest-beating, Ray. It's simply the plain, honest-to-God truth. A truth you apparently don't want to hear.

[YongChun]

Hi Terrence,

I'm just trying to get you to show something as opposed to all your hot air and condescending opinions of people you know nothing about. But you dare not do it because you know you will get criticized to death for your so called reality approach which likely is no different than anyone else's. Despite what you say, we will be able to judge something about your performance and see if all your great training has paid off or not or if you are just another dreamer too. But again you hate to get criticized and so don't dare to show. It would be great if you have more to say then real fighters fight and that people should go all out 100% all of the time. That gets pretty boring don't you think? People aren't as stupid as you may think, nor are they as unexperienced as you may think. By the videos you posted of good fighting, I really wonder about your standards of Wing Chun or even if you do Wing Chun?

Fighters don't listen to non-fighters. we have established that. But we haven't established if you are a fighter or a non-fighter. There is no evidence so far, just talk. If you competed in Pride/K1/Ulitmate fighting and did a good job using your Wing Chun then someone might listen to some of what you have to say although you say little about training anyway other than that a 90 pound woman should be able to stop a 250 pound tackle who is running at her with an air shield with a punch. I've got to see that. Maybe you can post a clip.

Ray

[kj]

Originally posted by AndrewS
Parable aside- there are a few reasons this dichotomy between the fighting and non-fighting camps run so deep. Speaking as someone on the 'you've gotta fight' side, of the 'escalating progressive live drill' faction here are the reasons for my rancor towards those who worship the theory:

<'Non-fighting sorts' please note, these are the reasons you p*ss me off, not the reasons you're wrong>

1). One reasons I love fighting is its essential truth. In the moment of application, you're hit or you get hit, in control or out of control. It's real and it's true, and to claim that some contrived shell is that moment is a lie and an abomination. I think this is the core of why a number of people here speak pretty sharply about the need for fighting. To us, it is truth, and I, for one, deeply love the truth.

2). The truth is painful. To claim another thing which lacks that pain is the same truth is to discount the pain one endures and enjoys in pursuing that truth.

3). I see training as a means of imparting skills which can save your life and being. I care about the people I have taught and think that real impact, real energy are the best ways to gauge and enhance their progress. To me, to say you're teaching self-defense but never put someone under pressure is a lie which can get someone badly hurt.

Later,

Andrew

Andrew, I for one can never be you, yet I deeply respect your honesty and feelings on this subject. I have seen, albeit indirectly and intangibly, serious evidence over the years of your hard work, dedication, relentless critical analysis, introspection, and a sincere caring for others (even if expressed in an offbeat way now and again :)).

I have no doubts that you are a man who is truly and honestly earning his kung fu. I really respect that. I earnestly enjoy and look forward to your thoughtful posts, and find them insightful and provocative. I'm even willing to entertain the "darker moments," LOL, for the benefit of the real treasures you reveal now and again.

Everything in context. Given that, your perspective seems quite reasonable to me. I'm not so deluded as to think that my own perspectives or penchants are the only reasonable ones.

I am one who is necessarily in a different place, with different needs and constraints. The same will of course be true for others; though circumstances vary, I'm not unique in that. I deeply regret if my situation, my journey, my perspective, or my own stubborn pursuit of Wing Chun has somehow offended you, or anyone. Situations like mine don't take anything away from your hard earned efforts. Thankfully, none of us are carbon copies of each other, not to mention there'd be a certain imprudence in aspiring to it. (Heaven forbid there should be more than one of me! I am certain I for one couldn't tolerate it, LOL.)

Just lots of different ways of looking at things I guess, and so many different things to see.

Thanks for your post, and the pause for reflection.

Regards,
- kj

P.S. FWLIW, I cannot remember the last time you PO'd me. ;)

[YongChun]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
Hey Andrew,

Thought you might enjoy this -- from an article on what it takes to be a good boxer

"The science of boxing (and I think this applies to any fighitng method) requires the following;

First, that the boxer enjoy fighting. ("To begin with, you enjoy the fight itself," Rocky Marciano wrote in his autobiography.)


You think Andrew doesn't know these things? Or is this a secret message to Kathy-Jo? I am sure Andrew knows these things so you must be trying to impress someone else?

Ray

[YongChun]

Originally posted by kj
Andrew, I for one can never be you, yet I deeply respect your honesty and feelings on this subject. I have seen, albeit indirectly and intangibly, serious evidence over the years of your hard work, dedication, relentless critical analysis, introspection, and a sincere caring for others (even if expressed in an offbeat way now and again :)). )

There are warriors and there are scholars. I put the scholar ahead of the warrior as far as benefiting the human race goes. If a warrior is also a scholar then that's a plus that separates him from an animal.

[AndrewS]

Hey Terence,

Nice article. I especially like the Holmes quote as definately 'resemble that remark' and it strikes a real chord with me.

As to your final question- it's an interesting one. I don't think it's fair to say all "theoretician's" train the same way- I would rather say the mark of the 'theoretician' is that they *don't* train, and if you don't train you get nothing. If you train unrealistically and improperly but in a dedicated manner you may get something or you may instill some bad and dangerous habits. Ultimately, if you don't use what you have, you'll never know if you have it- kinda Shroedinger's tan dar.

To be an effective athlete you need three things- skills work, conditioning, and experience in your sport. If you aren't doing all three, you're not in the game. That being said, the proportions and periodization of the above are up for debate as the difference between the elite and their peers often comes from the first two, not the third- the heavyweight champion of the world often has less than 30 pro fights while there are lots of palookas out there with 100+ on their records.

Hey Kathy,

to make things clear from my perspective, I have no issue with you or your approach. While I disagree with you, you've always acknowleged your background and been honest about them. I've never heard you claiming to generate full-contact fighters, just that you teach and learn a system of motion from a good line which you work hard at, and which will improve your odds in a confrontation. You work with what you learned and what you have to the best of your ability. As long as you approach this from that perspective and keep your students realisitic, I'm ok with that. The thing which fundamentally pushes my buttons is dishonesty.

My problem is, and remains, with that in the press for 'Wing Chun being for everyone', it *stopped* being for the fighters and the people for whom a few pints of blood and lengths of suture from training are a good trade. My training partner has a 17 year old barrio kid he's working with now- 6 months in he's going with serious contact in all ranges. That's the person I care most about, not the people who're doing this for a fun past-time, some fitness, and self-esteem. If you want self-esteem do community service or a bump of blow, I could care less which.

I'll leave this with a line from Mike Adams back when I started training (for those of you who remember him)- roughly- you can be good at this stuff in three ways- as a technician, fighter, or teacher. Few are good at all three, but you'll need experience in each.

Later,

Andrew

[Ernie]

andrew if your listen real hard ------------------------ you can hear me clapping :D great post man

Ray

I make it a habit to knock so called scholars on their snobby opinionated intellectual no flight time having butts ;)

how can one be a scholar of something they have never experienced ?

yet there are plenty of them out there :p :p :p :p

d amn those word nerds :cool:

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I see training as a means of imparting skills which can save your life and being. I care about the people I have taught and think that real impact, real energy are the best ways to gauge and enhance their progress. To me, to say you're teaching self-defense but never put someone under pressure is a lie which can get someone badly hurt."

Excellent thoughts, Andrew.


Also....got to comment on Terence's Marciano/Holmes post...

1) Enjoy the fighting....if you don't - you'll never be dedicated enough to ever excel at it.

2) Be willing to take it as well as give it....Had an uncle who used to say that the toughest guys (his way of saying "the best fighters")...are not the ones who can dish out the most punishment - the toughest guys (best fighters) are the ones who can get up off the floor and come back to beat you.

3) Enjoy the training...a corollary to #1...but more important - because the fighting is the gravy - and the training is the steak. Got to be willing to do the hard work on a consistent basis.

4) Work with good sparring partners and opponents...otherwise you'll never reach your potential.

And as to this from Andrew...

"...a line from Mike Adams back when I started training (for those of you who remember him)- roughly- you can be good at this stuff in three ways- as a technician, fighter, or teacher. Few are good at all three, but you'll need experience in each.

PERFECT.

[YongChun]

Originally posted by Ernie
andrew if your listen real hard ------------------------ you can hear me clapping :D great post man

Ray

I make it a habit to knock so called scholars on their snobby opinionated intellectual no flight time having butts ;)

how can one be a scholar of something they have never experienced ?

yet there are plenty of them out there :p :p :p :p

d amn those word nerds :cool:

I'm not relating scholars to fighers Ernie but the so called fighters seem to despise anyone who likes to have an intelligent discussion about anything. Since that's the case why participate in a forum of opinion. Just hit the bag and fight. Try a few real fights every once in awhile to keep real honest. We are all training for what? Some train for sport, some for fighting. The people who talk about training 100% don't seem to participate in the MMA sport or in real fighting. I think real 100% fighting is good but I also think your fighting career won't really last that long and if it does then you are not being honest about 100% fighting.

Ray

[t_niehoff]

Andrew, you have tan da'ed correctness.

Ernie, I like that attitude.

Ray, fighters don't despise "intelligent" discussions, it's just when the topic is fighting or training methods they recognize BS when they see it.

I don't compete in MMA competitions, but I fight everytime I go to BJJ -- so does everyone there. Why? Because they know there is no other way to get skilled but by sparring. None. When I go to the boxing gym, I fight. So does everyone else because they know there is no other way to get skill other than getting in the ring. But I don't box in tournaments. There are older men (in their 60s) at both gyms, still mixing it up (fighting is a part of the training; if you continue to train, then you've got to continue to fight). If boxers or BJJists "trained" like most WCK people do, they'd have little to no genuine fighting skill.

[kj]

Originally posted by AndrewS
Hey Terence,

Nice article. I especially like the Holmes quote as definately 'resemble that remark' and it strikes a real chord with me.

As to your final question- it's an interesting one. I don't think it's fair to say all "theoretician's" train the same way- I would rather say the mark of the 'theoretician' is that they *don't* train, and if you don't train you get nothing. If you train unrealistically and improperly but in a dedicated manner you may get something or you may instill some bad and dangerous habits. Ultimately, if you don't use what you have, you'll never know if you have it- kinda Shroedinger's tan dar.

To be an effective athlete you need three things- skills work, conditioning, and experience in your sport. If you aren't doing all three, you're not in the game. That being said, the proportions and periodization of the above are up for debate as the difference between the elite and their peers often comes from the first two, not the third- the heavyweight champion of the world often has less than 30 pro fights while there are lots of palookas out there with 100+ on their records.


Another astute observation.



Hey Kathy,

to make things clear from my perspective, I have no issue with you or your approach.


I didn't really think otherwise, though given the "air" around here of late a reality check didn't seem altogether unreasonable.



While I disagree with you,


I appreciate that disagreement and disrespect are not the same thing. Even disagreement has boundaries ... for example, while I disagree with your training approach for me, I don't disagree with it for you. What's my point? Who in Hades knows, LOL.

[Just to make sure it doesn't get entirely lost in the clutter of other dialog, it is only the hairy edge and attempts at discrete definition of "fight" that makes me hedge as I do. I am fully on board with the importance and practice of increasing intensity with seriously resisting opponents - regardless of one's circumstances. It is rather debate and definition on the cut-off point and context (or lack thereof) that seems to trigger such a perpetual fracas around here.]


you've always acknowledged your background and been honest about them. I've never heard you claiming to generate full-contact fighters, just that you teach and learn a system of motion from a good line which you work hard at, and which will improve your odds in a confrontation. You work with what you learned and what you have to the best of your ability.

Good "listening" skills.


As long as you approach this from that perspective and keep your students realistic, I'm ok with that. The thing which fundamentally pushes my buttons is dishonesty.


I hear you on the dishonesty thing. Sometimes there is real and intended dishonesty, and it really tees me off too. Sometimes there is ignorant dishonesty, and I also find that very frustrating and when serious enough even angering because of the irresponsibility involved. Avoiding our own dishonesty of ignorance is an endless effort. When people's well-being is involved or affected - as when talking about self-defense - this really is important stuff.

When it comes to something being labeled as dishonest but which is actually a misunderstanding about meaning, different communication styles, differing abilities to understand, etc., that's where it starts to get hairier for me in assigning blame. I'll leave it at that, as I don't want to digress too much.

FWIW, we make it abundantly clear to the members in our group that they are personally responsible for managing their own training as well as the risks relevant to training. That includes inside and outside of the studio. They must necessarily assume the risks of avoiding intensive training every bit as much as the risks of intensive training or fighting by whatever definition. They need to know their own limits, and they are responsible for themselves to push or exceed those limits. We do have firm rules for studio conduct which are largely for liability management, but practitioners are naturally free and encouraged to pursue whatever they wish outside the studio. As long as their pursuits are legitimate and ethical, they are supported in them. If they are fit, if they have health problems or injuries, if there are family or career considerations, whatever ... it's up to them as mature adults to find the right balance in training and risk taking for themselves. We don't claim anything more than simply sharing what we know of Wing Chun with whoever is interested. What each person makes of it beyond that, is entirely up to them. We fully support anyone who chooses to pursue other training avenues to fulfill their needs, and in fact frequently volunteer recommendations to help them. There are too many variables, and IMHO, it is wholly unreasonable to offer guarantees or pretend that our training approach is a panacea. There are ways to increase "probabilities," but in the end it is still up to each individual to do and become what they will.


My problem is, and remains, with that in the press for 'Wing Chun being for everyone', it *stopped* being for the fighters and the people for whom a few pints of blood and lengths of suture from training are a good trade. <snip>

That does seem to be a more general concern; not just yours. IMHO, a legitimate question.

I myself reserve qualms about voluntarily injuring others or being injured without good cause. That's just me, LOL. Naturally, "good cause" will be debatable as long as there exists a human species. I fully realize there are people with their own very good reasons to routinely risk the blood and sutures. Were my circumstances different than they are, I might very well be one of them. As my life isn't over yet, who knows where the right balance will be someday down the road, and I'm not inclined to limit my options. ;)

Back to your point and concern though. I concede that it often isn't easy to find the right type of training environment to suit our individual needs. That's true regardless which angle we're attacking the problem from. Certainly I haven't had an easy time of it, and I sense you've had to work pretty darn hard for yours too. On this count, I think the notion that Wing Chun 'isn't for fighters anymore' deserves to be challenged. Cases in point: you are making your way, Ernie (fighter or no - labels don't stick, LOL) is making his, Terence his, Dhira his, Victor his, the 17 year old you described, his, etc. And that is just people we know of from this petty little forum. In the whole wide world there are certainly many more "fighters" making their way and utilizing Wing Chun to do so.

With certain exceptions, there are few instances where people are truly precluded from whatever they need to do, other than by a shortfall in "perception" or lack of sufficient determination and follow through to do it. In other words, if someone wants something badly enough, and as long as they can refrain from hopelessness, they'll find a way. Just as you and I do in our respective ways. I'm sure we both know there is not a teacher in the world who can hand us what we need. They can sure help a lot along the way, but in the end we still have to make our way and earn it for ourselves.

The place where I see the most efforts to shove each other out - fighters and non-fighters alike - is in places like this forum. <sigh> And most of that (not all, but most), is due to the inherent limitations, and lack of "richness" in this medium of communication, combined with our own shortcomings in mastering it.

I think the largest contributor to appearances of wedging each other out is that we (mere humans that we are) tend to both write and read with too wide a paint brush. This is compounded by limitations of the medium, as well as our own carelessness.

We generalize too broadly. And when someone else does likewise, we fall right into it by aligning our identities with those we agree with, and alienate ourselves from those we don't agree with on whatever topic at hand. We start thinking odd things like "the enemy of my enemy must be my friend" or worse, "the friend of my enemy must also be my enemy." <sigh> We confuse disagreement with disrespect, and we each perceive ourselves as bastions of some universal truth. We make judgements about people we don't even know. How the Heavens must be amused by our inherently human silliness.

FWIW, and naive as I may be, I earnestly believe there is indeed room for all of us - both on forums like this, and in live training.


I'll leave this with a line from Mike Adams back when I started training (for those of you who remember him)- roughly- you can be good at this stuff in three ways- as a technician, fighter, or teacher. Few are good at all three, but you'll need experience in each.

Good one.

FWIW, I remember Mike well. We kept in loose touch for a long time. I kept intending to connect with him sometime when in the Boston area. Remember all the old WC/WT/TWC wars? How history repeats itself in new and different forms, LOL. Amidst the usual noise, your and Mike's voices would rise from the din with something which, to me, was often intriguing and reasonable. I used to keep Mike informed of training opportunities our way too, especially when it involved a chance to work with Ken. I seem to recall that he moved or something - Texas perhaps? I lost track of him shortly after he took his sabbatical. Hope all's well with him. If you're still in touch, please send him my regards.

Forgive my pensive musings.

Regards,
- kj

[AndrewS]

Hey Kathy,

good talking to you. It's been what, 10-11 years since we met on rec.m-a?

You write:

>Back to your point and concern though. I concede that it often >isn't easy to find the right type of training environment to suit >our individual needs. That's true regardless which angle we're >attacking the problem from. Certainly I haven't had an easy time >of it, and I sense you've had to work pretty darn hard for yours >too. On this count, I think the notion that Wing Chun 'isn't for >fighters anymore' deserves to be challenged.

Here is a fundamental place of disagreement for us. The teaching structure of most Wing Chun which I have seen relies in the poon sao platform *far* too much. As useful as that platform is, to learn to actually do the basic roll as something more than horrid choereography is 1-2 years dedicated work. As such people don't have a way to work other Wing Chun elements live until much later. This results in a smaller pool of people to work with in any class, and part of what Terence, Ernie, and I are b*tch about is that people need to work live stuff early, not just to develop the technical side of their abilities, but to develop the spirit and intent of fighting from day one. In order to learn most Wing Chun, there's so much technical detail that people get sidetracked for their intro period, and often never come back to the fighting fold.

Put more simply, to develop fighters you need a gym full of people, not two guys at a school with an interest. We are pushing for a cultural change in Wing Chun. Each of us has our own teaching prejudices, but what we're getting into is a fundamental problem with many people in Wing Chun- to paraphrase my sifu 'The lazy b*st*rds have forgotten how to sweat'.

On Mike Adams- I lost track of him when sifu Emin and Leung Ting split. I understand he's still in Illinois, but haven't heard from him in 3 years or so.

Terence,

you've joined the grappling/Wing Chun darkside? Ya know, we should start a freakin newsgroup or something. A quicky but a goody- defending the neck when a guy has your back- get the hands in with tight elbows like a double tan- works beautifully compared with the elbow out position most BJJ guys use, 'cos you can slip out by kinda changing to a kup jarn doing a frame/kwan kinda thing if you can shed the hooks.


Take care,

Andrew

[planetwc]

Last I know his website was at:

dynamic wing tsun (http://www.dynamicwingtsun.com/)

[kj]

Originally posted by AndrewS
Hey Kathy,

good talking to you. It's been what, 10-11 years since we met on rec.m-a?


That's just about right. The years do fly.

Thanks for your thoughtful message. You clarified in two short paragraphs more than all the prior year's kibitzing combined.

There's tons of fruit for discussion in it, but that isn't my concern at the moment. "Seek first to understand, and then to be understood." With so many ramifications in what you wrote, you've given me plenty to contemplate for now.


We are pushing for a cultural change in Wing Chun.

Loud and clear.

I appreciate the opportunity to understand your perspective better. Best wishes to you guys in meeting your needs.

Regards,
- kj

[kj]

Thanks for the link, David. Glad to see Mike is still in action.

Regards,
- kj

[YongChun]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
Andrew, you have tan da'ed correctness.

Ernie, I like that attitude.

Ray, fighters don't despise "intelligent" discussions, it's just when the topic is fighting or training methods they recognize BS when they see it.

I don't compete in MMA competitions, but I fight everytime I go to BJJ -- so does everyone there. Why? Because they know there is no other way to get skilled but by sparring. None. When I go to the boxing gym, I fight. So does everyone else because they know there is no other way to get skill other than getting in the ring. But I don't box in tournaments. There are older men (in their 60s) at both gyms, still mixing it up (fighting is a part of the training; if you continue to train, then you've got to continue to fight). If boxers or BJJists "trained" like most WCK people do, they'd have little to no genuine fighting skill.

HI Terrence,

Too bad you have no idea how we train or anyone else not belonging to your school. Mixing it up means what? Are they trying to hit each other for the 100% knockout. Are you really trying to take out the knee of a 90 pound woman? Are you trying to punch a child as hard as you can? That's the kind of thing you imply and that's what's totally idiotic. It sounds to me like you are just sparring and wrestling like most of us do. We wrestle but we don't go 100% and really try to break each other's arms and necks. Rough and tough training in general in any club doesn't mean you try to really hurt your partner. I haven't seen any clips from anyone where they do that. The next level up for us would be to injure everyone. We take it to the maximum that is still safe. Taking it beyond that is totally stupid and as a lawyer you should understand that. Anyone who does that would be liable and irresponsible. One of our members trains in BJJ and another in Thai boxing. None take it to 100% level where major injury would result. They all have lives and need to work the next day and support a family. To me training 100% is different then what you imply. What you imply is nothing more than we do already. When we don't use protection we go lighter because serious injury will result. When a 250 pound guy fights a 90 pound high school girl he can't go anywhere close to 100% or she would be dead. I doubt you train like that? The video clips you showed were nothing special. That level of intensity is common and we are used to that. If that's all you mean by your 100% then say so. If you can do better than everyone then show us.

Ray

Ray

[anerlich]

dfl,

Have you ever heard of the Porsche 917, a race car purpose built for the old Can Am series in the US?

It had a turbocharged 5.3 litre flat 12 - basically two normal Porsche engines welded together. Generated about 500 horsepower or something equally ridiculous, had a top speed about 240 mph, plus this aerodynamic body and superlightweight space frame chassis that meant the faster you cornered the harder you stuck to the road, until certain engineering limits were reached and the car got pushed into the road so hard at such a high speed it self destructed - some spectacular wipeouts. The Can Am series, according to some, was discontinued bacause this car just totally blew away the 8 litre MacLarens and their ilk which were their competition.

You water swimmers are a bunch of pansies. I've bodysurfed at both Point Panic and Sandy Beach, as well as some big days at Tamarama in Sydney. You people that swim in pools and rivers think you're the ant's pantaloons, but you don't know Jack. Rough water ocean swimming is the only type worthy of a man (or woman).

:p

[Matrix]

Originally posted by old jong
[BI also know people who drink from the toilet!...(really!) [/B] Please tell me these are some of your patients!! :eek:

[Matrix]

Originally posted by AndrewS
<'Non-fighting sorts' please note, these are the reasons you p*ss me off, not the reasons you're wrong> Bonus points for honesty.


1). One reasons I love fighting is its essential truth. Love is the essential truth. Not fighting. Unless you're trying to steal my parking spot at the mall. ;)


2). The truth is painful. Yes, Love hurts. A great idea for a song, don't you think? Maybe if I was huge physical specimen, such as yourself, I would feel the same way.


To me, to say you're teaching self-defense but never put someone under pressure is a lie which can get someone badly hurt. So true.... But fighting skills need to be developed in the proper progression. Throwing a couple of unskilled students into a sparring session has limited value. It teaches people bad habits, IMO. People crawl before they walk, and walk before they run.

[old jong]

Originally posted by Matrix
Please tell me these are some of your patients!! :eek:

Sure! And I did not mention those who occasionaly eat there but that would be out of topic!...;)

(I retire in 4 years,I retire in 4 years ,I retire in 4 years didn't I tell you I retire in 4 years?...) :D

[Matrix]

Originally posted by old jong
(I retire in 4 years,I retire in 4 years ,I retire in 4 years didn't I tell you I retire in 4 years?...) :D Thank goodness! :)

[old jong]

...And bon appétit!...:D

[YongChun]

Originally posted by anerlich
dfl,



You water swimmers are a bunch of pansies. I've bodysurfed at both Point Panic and Sandy Beach, as well as some big days at Tamarama in Sydney. You people that swim in pools and rivers think you're the ant's pantaloons, but you don't know Jack. Rough water ocean swimming is the only type worthy of a man (or woman).

:p

The only real swimming is swimming with the sharks like that guy in Australia last week. Real men do that and nothing less.

Ray

[anerlich]

Sorry Ray, but the sharks don't come near REAL men. Too scared.

(No disrespect meant to the family and friends of the guy that was tragically killed).

[AndrewS]

Matrix writes:



> Yes, Love hurts.

>A great idea for a song, don't you think? Maybe if I was huge physical specimen, such as yourself, I would feel the same way.

People can learn to take contact. Toughness and ability to take pain have nothing to do with size- as any dedicated female dancer or gymnast proves.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To me, to say you're teaching self-defense but never put someone under pressure is a lie which can get someone badly hurt.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>So true.... But fighting skills need to be developed in the proper progression. Throwing a couple of unskilled students into a sparring session has limited value. It teaches people bad habits, IMO. People crawl before they walk, and walk before they run.


I wasn't talking about how to get there, that's a different discussion.

Andrew

[Matrix]

Originally posted by AndrewS
People can learn to take contact. Toughness and ability to take pain have nothing to do with size- as any dedicated female dancer or gymnast proves. True, but skill being equal, a bigger, stronger person can take and give more punishment.


I wasn't talking about how to get there, that's a different discussion Fair enough......

[AndrewS]

Matrix writes:

>True, but skill being equal, a bigger, stronger person can take and give more punishment.

Dropping flyweights into the front line of a pro american football team is probably a bit of overkill, yeah. That being said, the level of contact the average 15 year old tomgirl takes when in a pit or stage-diving with little ill effect is far beyond what most healthy adult males of good size will take in their Wing Chun classes.

I mean people *skie* and you worry about a little contact in a fighting class? For god's sake, there are trees out there!

Later,

Andrew

[Theorb]

YongChun say:Fighters don't listen to non-fighters. we have established that. But we haven't established if you are a fighter or a non-fighter


do fighter walk around keep repeat rain man style "dry-land definitly dryland" ? if yes then mr.t could be fighter

i thinking mr.t very much lawyer and not much else because alway try to not give wrong answer but answer still no good


lost guy: scuse me where am i?

mr t answer: you in front of me.

Answer true but USELESS

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[Matrix]

Originally posted by AndrewS
I mean people *skie* and you worry about a little contact in a fighting class? For god's sake, there are trees out there! Me? Worried? :eek: