Tai Chi Punching

[houstonwriter.c]

I'm interested in hearing what various people think is similar or different between punching in Chen or Yang Tai Chi and punching in some other kung fu styles, or other arts in general. Chen or Yang power generation, theory, practice methods, anything. What are the basic concepts and keys to real power?

[shang wu]

As far as punching goes in IMO punching is punching. What is different is that in most Taiji training in the US that I have been exposed to you don’t do the amount of focused training on this one specific skill as you do in other arts. Until you are hitting something all discussion of power generation is purely academic, as you don’t have any real feedback to work with. We all know the path of root theory, power generates in the feet develops in the legs directed by the waist ect,ect. But this is something that needs to be experienced and distilled with practice and if you’re talking about punching then you need to hit something.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Art is correct in that without contact we have no feedback as to what actually occurs when the punch is delivered.. having trained in several external styles and finally focusing on the internal, i notice a big difference in punches.. much of the external is concerned with arm power and secondly twisting power (waist/legs).. Taiji also focuses on waist/legs but also uses simple kinetic energy of the whole body moving forward as the weight is shifted into the punch.. the shifting of the weight from a rear weighted stance to a front weighted stance is loaded with kinetic energy (like putting your feet under the heavy bag then pushing it away and letting it hit you full-force).. then, as your weight shifts forward, you also twist the waist accelerating the striking hand.. just as the punch nears its target, the front leg brakes the (let's assume a left foot forward stance) left side of the pelvis while the rear (right) leg pushes the right side of the pelvis forward, rotating the spine and shoulders in a whipping action.. the arm is relaxed but with substance and is whipped toward the target.. here, correct timing is crucial, the frame (skeleton) very briefly locks into place to add support to the impact of the punch.. then, just as quickly, the frame relaxes and prepares for the next technique.. this only addresses the physical movement of the punch, involving Qi is a seperate issue, too long for this post..

Practice on a heavy bag is very useful in adjusting timing and frame for maximum effect.. ultimately, you should see the heavy bag (Muay Thai type, long and sort of narrow) bulge substantially from the whipping impact but not much overall movement.. big overall movement, like huge swings of the bag are commonly associated with external energies.. while huge bulges, almost folding the heavy bag with little swing, are commonly associated with internal energies..... or, at least, that's how i have been taught.. and it works well for me..

Be well..

[unixfudotnet]

like was said, a punch is a punch :) just we use exact body mechanics and internal energy, which hard styles use as well, just later on in their training where we get it from the get-go.

chi development also has a side effect of proper body mechanics. so really any punch or strike will have proper body mechanics that has chi power behind it, because it is the foundation in all we do :)

[scotty1]

To be honest I don't think I've ever been told how to punch by my teacher, "just hit it", lol.

I have been instructed in how to do the conditioning we do for our punching though.

And I wasn't a complete beginner when I started.

But I don't know, we've never really gone into the mechanics of it REALLY deeply.

I think the correct mechanics are supposed to be manifested through correct training.

[unixfudotnet]

maybe you have a bad teacher, or probably they just want to you just do the movement without thinking too much about it yet *shrug* hard to tell. different teachers teach differently, some are better than others. hard to tell online :)

[scotty1]

lol, I'm not concerned about my teacher.

"or probably they just want to you just do the movement without thinking too much about it yet "

I think that's it. :)

As I said before, "I think the correct mechanics are supposed to be manifested through correct training."

Maybe it's not deemed to be something you need to think too much about. Just through doing the conditioning training I can punch harder than I could when I kickboxed. So something's working, and it didn't require an explanation.

But like you say, different teachers do it different ways, and different students need different things, so as long as we're all punching hard, it doesn't matter, lol

[SPJ]

The secrets are actually in your feet. It is called the root Jin.

There are 2 types: Deng and Ta.

Deng is to use your 5 toes to push and grab on to the ground. There is a counter energy produced. You then use the rest of your body structure (Shen Fa) to transmit or relay.

Ta is to your heel side to "step" or "stomp" on the ground.

You may watch the feet of a practitioner of Tai Ji or other style. If there is no Deng or Ta, there is no root. The rest is a fake.

In Tai Ji, you use your whole body to move your arm or Yi Shen Dai Bei.

In Tong Bei, you Deng when you sway your arm up and you Ta when you sway your arm down. The steps are called Ta La Bu. You move your front foot forward and drag the rear foot.

In Tang Lang, it is called Tuo La Bu.

In Hidden punch (Yen Shou Gong Zui), your weight is on your right foot at first. When you punch your right fist forward at the shoulder level and shift your weight to your left front foot; you have Deng Jin on your right foot and Ta Jin on your left foot.

[SPJ]

On Tang Do Jin;

If you do a circular punch, or a sudden jerking strike with the back of your fist,

Such as Ban Lan Zui in Yang Tai Ji. Yang Lu Chan used it a lot to defeat punchs and kicks. This move made him unbeatable.

You still watch for your Deng and Ta in your feet.

The 10 toes need to grab on the ground. The rest of the body has to be relaxed all the way.

[houstonwriter.c]

SPJ, Thx!

Ta is to your heel side to "step" or "stomp" on the ground.

This is one thing that prompted my interest. I see the instructors and seniors at my school punching and hear the little stomp but it's so fast it's hard to tell what's happening. Then when they slow it down and explain it to me I get it intellectually but then mine still sucks ;)

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

The stomp, as i understand it, bounces your internal energy off the ground while at the same time accumulating earth energy.. the result is a ripple of energy, both physical and Qi, that very rapidly flows along the "proper alignment" to manifest great power at the application.. There is a great video of Cheng Man Cheng pushing where he launches an opponent quite a distance with a barely noticable rear heel stomp just as his arms seem to only twitch.. it seems that he lifted his heel less than 1/2 inch and thrust it downward with perceivable force.. i've been working on that for years and it's no easy feat.. timing, intention, alignment, and opportunity rarely intersect for the full effect, for me anyhow..

Be well..

[Ray Pina]

If there's one thing I learned in 2004 is that punching is not punching.

My teacher taught me a type of wave punching which comes from taiji. The theory behind it is that staight punching is easy to cut, or chop if the guy is taller.

In this punching the hangs are held close in a guard and the firsts go out but the power is generated from a wave-like motion from the elbow but fueld by the shoulder and of course the foot.

It is multi-directional and can be a hook, uppercut, cross, ect. but it tends to land on the incoming strike from underneath.

For Hsing-I guys, you can say its striking going into Tiger Heads.... kind of hard to explian, but easy to understand once its shown, and so so in picking it up.... one or two classes.

[Happykiwi]

There are no punches in Taiji, in the way we understand a punch to mean a strike at great force. However, there are the eight methods of power- peng, lu, ji, an, cai, lei, zou, and kao. If you were to punch how can you be using listening (ting) energy?
To use ting jing, you must first be in touch with your opponent. Force is normally issued at the point of contact. If you are already in contact, why use a punch?

[shang wu]

Are you saying there is no punching in a Taiji player’s arsenal of fighting options?
Drilling punches off of contact is easily done. Why would a martial art not retain this option? It is plainly seen in Yi Lu and Pao Choi from Chen style. I will agree that it is not the same as western boxing or even punching from outer ranges that you see in other Chinese martial arts, but it is still nonetheless punching.
. As for ting jen, listening energy has no distance, sensing your partner must start before contact and remain active after.

[SPJ]

How to sense the opponent's Jin;

1. If without contact, it is called "seeing". You may estimate by the opponent's posture and moves.

2. To listen, you have to use a small Peng Jin to contact and test the opponent's Jin and then you know. It is called "listening" or Ting Jin.

You circularly move up your forearm to contact that of the opponent, and you also rotate a little around the forearm once in contact. You use a small circular Jin to merge into the opponent's Jin. Since the direction of a circular Jin changes all the time, at the moment of contact, you have a Jin that is in the same direction as that of the opponent. You have to use a light Jin to contact or touch (Zhan).

Since your posture and circular momemtum is still going, you may redirect the opponent's Jin into a different direction. This is how a circle beats a line.

[SPJ]

1) Yes, A Tai Ji practitioner may punch or strike (Kao) with all of his or her bodypart with a sudden jerking and outward bouncing energy. (Tang Do Jin)

2) A straight punch is done in a circular way with body mechanics, too. It is called striving to be straight in curves (Qu Zhong Qio Zi).

Such as Yen Shou Gong Zui or hidden punch at the shoulder level. Zi Dong Zui hitting the groin and Ji Di Zui hitting the knee, etc.

3) A circular punch, you swing your arms circularly, upon contact, you then generate the boucing and jerking Jin or Tang Do Jin to hit. The most famous is Ban Lan Zui, Yang Lu Chan used this move a lot to defeat a lot of people.

[Happykiwi]

Originally posted by shang wu
[B]Are you saying there is no punching in a Taiji player’s arsenal of fighting options? ]
Punching necessitates tensing of the muscles combined with locking of the joints. This is not in accord with the Taiji principle of "song". Secondly, conventional punches are linear, not circular. Thirdly, in conventional puncing, there is issuing (of force) but no receiving. Consequently, there is no yin and yang simultaneously.
A clenched fist in the form does not necessarily imply a punch but could be a grasping or a consolidation/focusing of power at the point of contact.


Drilling punches off of contact is easily done. Why would a martial art not retain this option? It is plainly seen in Yi Lu and Pao Choi from Chen style. I will agree that it is not the same as western boxing or even punching from outer ranges that you see in other Chinese martial arts, but it is still nonetheless punching.

Sorry, I don't consider Chen style to be Taiji but Pao Chui. Therefore I do not follow this style's prescribed method of training.


As for ting jen, listening energy has no distance, sensing your partner must start before contact and remain active after.
As I understand it, one can only develop ting jing through pushing hands, hence it is a most important part of the Taiji syllabus. I cannot see how else one can apply ting jing other than through direct contact. It is only through ting jing that one can have tong (understanding) jing.

[Happykiwi]

Originally posted by SPJ
[B]How to sense the opponent's Jin;

1. If without contact, it is called "seeing". You may estimate by the opponent's posture and moves.

I'm not sure it is a good idea to "estimate" as the "balancing" of the forces must be at least 99.999% precise. Please also refer to my previous reply to Shang Wu above.



2. To listen, you have to use a small Peng Jin to contact and test the opponent's Jin and then you know. It is called "listening" or Ting Jin.
Peng jin must be CONTINUOUSLY present at all times as a defensive mechanism. Furthermore, the essence of peng jin is to "ward-off".



You circularly move up your forearm to contact that of the opponent, and you also rotate a little around the forearm once in contact. You use a small circular Jin to merge into the opponent's Jin. Since the direction of a circular Jin changes all the time, at the moment of contact, you have a Jin that is in the same direction as that of the opponent. You have to use a light Jin to contact or touch (Zhan).

Since your posture and circular momemtum is still going, you may redirect the opponent's Jin into a different direction. This is how a circle beats a line.

Any response must be INSTANTANEOUS, not laborious or "prefabricated". The smallest possible circle will suffice, and the smallest is a "dot".

[shang wu]

1.) Yes, A Tai Ji practitioner may punch or strike (Kao) with all of his or her bodypart with a sudden jerking and bouncing outward energy. (Tang Do Jin)

Spj
From your post I see that you do recognize that there are a variety of punch references in Taiji, and thank you for the eloquent elucidation of them.

[QUOTE]
Punching necessitates tensing of the muscles combined with locking of the joints. This is not in accord with the Taiji principle of "song". Secondly, conventional punches are linear, not circular. Thirdly, in conventional puncing, there is issuing (of force) but no receiving. Consequently, there is no yin and yang simultaneously

Happykiwi

Punching, as any movement requires you to flex your muscles this is basic bio mechanics with out flexing nothing moves.
You can move in anyway with out tension if it is fast twitch or a graduated flexion in other words only using enough strength but not too much and not sustained contraction.

As for not recognizing Chen style as Taiji would you expound on this, I have never come across this notion?

[Happykiwi]

Punching, as any movement requires you to flex your muscles this is basic bio mechanics with out flexing nothing moves.
You can move in anyway with out tension if it is fast twitch or a graduated flexion in other words only using enough strength but not too much and not sustained contraction.

As for not recognizing Chen style as Taiji would you expound on this, I have never come across this notion?

In conventional punching, the full force is focused in the knuckles. Hence, to break a brick, the knuckles must be as hard or close to as hard, as the brick itself. At the point of impact, all the muscles must tense up to deliver maximum force. I doubt if any of us here who had not toughen their knuckles before could break a kiln brick. We therefore see fist figthers use sandbags to condition/harden/toughen their fists. I am not aware of any form of Taiji training prescribing this method because Taiji is about using 4 ounces to defeat 1,000 pounds. In other words, the MINIMUM force needed. A Taiji opponent gets hurt not because of the force of impact received but the result of his own force/tension being redirected back at him causing him to be thrown back, or trip over, or slip, when he loses his balance and then landing awkwardly on hard surfaces such as walls, concrete floors, rough ground, rocks, etc.
In the posture, sidle parry and punch, the jin dian (energy point) is actually in the wrist and not the fist, meaning it is never intended to be a punch in the first place. If one has not toughen his fists beforehand, I would not recommend anyone to use the punch because there is a good chance he will break his fingers or knuckles in a real fight.

My view on Chen style is just my opinion and I mean no disrespect to anyone. In fact, I have deep respect for all forms of Chinese martial art.
Pao Chui is based on Shaolin Hong Quan and Taizu Nan Quan. Taiji is based on the Daoist philosophy of using the soft (yin) to overcome the hard (yang). In Taiji terms, it is "si liang ta qian jin" or 4 ounces to defeat 1,000 pounds.

Below is a website with some research articles by Peter Lim about the origin of Taijiquan. I do not know Peter Lim and do not agree with everything he said in his articles.

http://sunflower.singnet.com.sg/~limttk/


Yours in martial art,
Happy

[SPJ]

The idea of Tai Ji was from the Daoist view of nature. It may be dated back to 4200 years ago or more.

The book of Change or Zhou Yi is the text. There were many interpretations by many over the periods of 3000 years.

True, Tai Ji fist existed in many schools, Shaolin, Wu Dang and many others.

Chen Tai Ji some said evolved from Tai Tzu Chan Quan and other. Some even linked Ba Ji.

Peng Lu Ji An Cai Lie Zhou Kao are old terms used by many.

But all in all, most would still agreed that Chen Tai Ji was refined enough and distinct enough to be called Tai Ji.

There are also many other fist sets naming Tai Ji as the theory and practice.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Taiji is a martial art.. punching, regardless of its composition, is prevalent in every style of Taiji i am familiar with.. too often the literal translation of Taiji manuscripts is favored over the simple common-sense intentions of the authors.. much of the mistaken translations are based on analogies that are culture specific.. ie: "eye follows hand", where hand represents "intention" not the literal hand (considering we have two hands it could get confusing).. "focus on nose", where nose represents "breath", unlike some instructors that would have you cross your eyes during Wuji.. "avoid double-weighting", where double weighting represents force against force (weight against weight).. "4 ounces deflect 1000 pounds" represents a skill potential, if you stand in front of a 1000 pound charging bull and apply four ounces of deflection, well, you get the picture..

To assert that Taiji doesn't utilize punches is to be detached from its potential and lost in the mental exercises of trying to itellectualize it.. Taiji is known by doing, by testing the principles in controlled and uncontrolled situations.. here, you will find the correct interpretation of the classics because the experience is universal, the writings are cultural..

Be well..

[Happykiwi]

I thought some of you might find this article interesting. It is about palm versus a fist strike:

http://www.mwarrior.com/punch.htm

[shang wu]

I don’t see the point. We are not talking about what is better punch or palm; it was about punching in Taiji. As far as the set up for the articles case on punching, most police are not trained in Taiji, and in Taiji there is no punch too the skull that I now off. Most of this impulse to punch someone in the head comes from the fact that most westerners growing up with Boxing where your hands are taped and inside gloves and still they break their hands, and that most police are not very well trained boxers either. and as the artical said mike broke his hand Lets just say it’s not martial art and that it is martial sport at best, body punches work great, hit something soft and vulnerable. To the point of using palms, I agree that this is an awesome striking weapon, but as I said before you should hit something to get the right feel, because if you just do form and expect it to translate to martial skill you are in for a big surprise. I have yet to meet a forms only practitioner that can really make it work as well as a person with a more complete martial training approach .

[Ray Pina]

There's plenty of punching in there. The opening move is punching!

As for tensing, someone has to do the job. Even when doing your non-punching form, you telling me you're not using muscle? They're not contracting? B.S. Let me give you a needle and numb all your muscle and we'll see what the chi moves alone.

I view punching like a nunchuku. My first is one pice of wood, my body another, but the arm and shoulder are the chain.

My car has a lot of parts in there that I don't know about, don't know what they're called, haven't seen them and wouldn't know what they were if someone pointed them out to me .... doesn't mean they're not in there.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Happykiwi
There are no punches in Taiji,


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[unixfudotnet]

yeah, obviously he doesn't know what he is talking about.

[Happykiwi]

Originally posted by shang wu
I don’t see the point. We are not talking about what is better punch or palm; it was about punching in Taiji. As far as the set up for the articles case on punching, most police are not trained in Taiji, and in Taiji there is no punch too the skull that I now off. Most of this impulse to punch someone in the head comes from the fact that most westerners growing up with Boxing where your hands are taped and inside gloves and still they break their hands, and that most police are not very well trained boxers either. and as the artical said mike broke his hand Lets just say it’s not martial art and that it is martial sport at best, body punches work great, hit something soft and vulnerable. To the point of using palms, I agree that this is an awesome striking weapon, but as I said before you should hit something to get the right feel, because if you just do form and expect it to translate to martial skill you are in for a big surprise. I have yet to meet a forms only practitioner that can really make it work as well as a person with a more complete martial training approach .

If you read the article more carefully, you will see the point. The doctor, who himself is a martial artist, argued that he cannot see any punch stikes which cannot be just as effectively replaced by a palm strike.
A palm strike will be able to be changed rapidly into a grab, or a ward, or a deflection, etc. A closed fist cannot be easily converted into any of those.
There is at least another form of martial art that used almost exclusively the palm and that is Bagua Zhang (PALM). In the more advanced techniques in Wing Chun, the palm strike is used almost exclusively.
Punches are used in Taiji not as a strike in the way that western boxers do but to focus the force onto the wrist, or forearm or elbow. A clenched fist in the Taiji form also often mean a "grasp" and not necessarily a punching strike as most westerners would understand it.
There is nothing wrong with using punching strikes but before people choose to do so, I would advise them to ensure that they have taken the proper training to harden their fingers and hands first. However, if they are doing Taiji, then I'm not aware of any punching strikes in the Taiji that I have studied. The eight methods of power in Taiji are ward off, roll back, press, push, pluck, split, elbow, and shoulder. The "punch" or "fist" is clearly missing.

[Happykiwi]

[i]Originally posted by EvolutionFist
There's plenty of punching in there. The opening move is punching!

In the principles of Taiji, the 8 methods of power are ward-off, roll-back, press, push, pluck, split, elbow, and shoulder. Why is there no "punch" or 'fist" included? If you are punching in the opening move, would you be doing this in accordance with the Taiji principles or are you adding something that is not Taiji?



As for tensing, someone has to do the job. Even when doing your non-punching form, you telling me you're not using muscle? They're not contracting? B.S. Let me give you a needle and numb all your muscle and we'll see what the chi moves alone.

Different muscle groups must contract (yang) and relax (yin) for the body parts to move and it is by the action of relaxing that enegry is released into the muscles as electric impluses. Unfortunately, not all muscle fibres within a group release the energy at the same time. By using the principle of "song" and "yi" in Taiji, more muscle fibres could be harnessed to release the energy simultaneously. Hence, the old Taiji saying, "Yong yi bu yong li".

[Happykiwi]

Originally posted by unkokusai
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Please reveal to me where the punch or fist strike is described in the eight methods of power in Taiji?

"ward-off, roll-back, press, push, pluck, split, elbow, and shoulder."

If you are using a punch strike, is this in accordance with the Taiji principles? Why practise "push hands" and not "punching hands" with clenched fists?

[shang wu]

I think if you would stay focused on the post you would see that the discussion is Taiji punching and its place in Taiji, not would a palm work better.

To that point of palm striking I love them and as you have said or the Dr they are a wise option for smacking someone up side the head, but that is not the topic.

If Taiji theory says you can issue power with any part of the body why not a fist.

And why would a daosist one who embraces the universe as a whole. Yin and Yang and all its manifestations not embrace a fist?

As far as push hands goes it is “A “just one training exercise not the whole of Taiji.

On muscle contraction agonistic and antagonistic work together all the time. Power generation is enhanced when the relaxing muscles do not interfere with the contracting muscles. It is the speed of the contraction and the amount of fibers engaged in that contraction minus the drag from tension / contraction of the opposing muscle that generates the power so Song or relaxation is only ½ the equation.

As for Yi, intent / mind /body. if there is no separation and yin / yang are one Tao we are moving naturally with no doing and nothing is out of harmony not even a punch , how is this not Taiji?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings...


Please reveal to me where the punch or fist strike is described in the eight methods of power in Taiji? Words and writings are abstractions of the process they describe.. observe the form(s), what do you see preserved over centuries of practice.. repetitive use of the punch. 8 this, 5 that 13 other.. just someone's musings regarding the Art itself.. truth is in the experience, not in the words describing it. Way too often students and some noted teachers are deceived by flowing words, grand theories and fanciful notions, but.. truth is in the forms themselves.. fist forms abounded at the conception of Taiji forms, Taiji accepted the existing knowledge of the fist and set about the task of supporting it with appropriate body mechanics and alignment.

So, in asking me to "reveal" where the punch is described, i am asking you to practice your forms and explain where you don't see punches.. teachers only point the way to the experience, it is the student that teaches themselves by accepting the experience as part of their knowing. the forms will reveal the principles, and.. unless i'm mistaken, the prevalent use of fists in every form i am familiar with is a clear indication of the intention of the form and its most basic principle.. that a fist is common knowledge, already refined by many systems, it has already displayed its effective usefulness..

There are those that "tilt at windmills", that cry for the ambiguous alternatives, that find their own interpretations superior to centuries of refined practice.. and, they rage against the obvious with a religious passion. Read the classics, do the forms, feel the energy fill your flesh, and.. the fist will reveal itself, as it has for centuries. Put the art to the test, spar with a competent fighter from another style, the fist will reveal itself.. again.. why?.. because it is there, in the form.. for a reason, it works.. and, Taiji refines its usefulness.. Curb your eagerness to be "right", let the forms be right and you will naturally follow..

Be well..

[Ray Pina]

You'll have to forgive me, because I am not learning the Taiji form so to say.

The opening up down move, the arms, that's punching and pretty advanced punching at that.

Straight punching is dangerous. If you are shorter/shorter arm, how can you dare to trade straight punching with the taller man?

So the wave like motion, with the fist and NUCKLES leading, coming from underneath, componsates.

But more important than the physical strike is the principle. Most fighters fight what my master calls "captital to captial" .... trying to go right for the head right away. Again, how can you do this against the taller man?

So instead, this wave like punching is meant to intercept the incoming strike, strike the incoming troops first. Ask for the hand (or strike it), ask for the other hand, then hit from there.

This is the first punching in taiji that I learned. Hard to expalin the wave like pattern. But hold your arms in the "fence position", close to you. Don't strike out too far. Use the elbow to create the movement but he's powered by the shoulder. It is not too disimiliar from Hsing-I's Horse. Of course, after you train punching your training partners shield and have it, then add foot power and its a nice aproaching punching.

Then there is also what we call "Dragon Punching." The silly looking move you guys do when you bring both forearms over your head and to the front that looks like you are smashing an invisible gong in the air.

This is great punching. From the side, it looks like a regular reverse punch. From the front it looks like a hook. This is very powerful punching, used to collapse someone's guard.

Also, it comes in the same way as the other punch. So you band the guys guard from the front a few times and then he goes to cover and it changes to a hook.

Taiji to me is an ideal, a goal to be striving for. A style has been named after it, but some of it is, well, asking a lot. At least for me. Also, my personality is to take or steal your power, not go around asking and borrowing for it. But this can also be due to the fact that I'm still a wise-a$$ 30-year old.

Good stuff in there though.

[Happykiwi]

Originally posted by shang wu
I think if you would stay focused on the post you would see that the discussion is Taiji punching and its place in Taiji, not would a palm work better.

To that point of palm striking I love them and as you have said or the Dr they are a wise option for smacking someone up side the head, but that is not the topic.

My apology if I failed to make my point clear. Let me perhaps try and explain in a different way. Taiji, just like Bagua, is a unique form of CMA. Unlike Shaolin based art like Hung-gar, or Nanquan, etc. where the emphasis may be on striking out with the fist, the hallmark of Taiji is the eight methods of power. Hence, the emphasis on pushing hands to develop and refine the skills inherent in these eight methods. Note also that pushing hands denote close contact and the requirement is "bu tiu, bu ding"; never to lose contact and at the same time never to resist. In a conventional punching strike, you begin from NO contact to (HOPEFULLY) full contact. In contrast, in Taiji you only issue force AFTER you have contact. For this reason I have argued that there is NO punching strike in taiji.



If Taiji theory says you can issue power with any part of the body why not a fist.

My point is there is no punching strike in Taiji because you only issue force when you have contact, NOT before. (If you have no contact, how can you use ting jing in Taiji?) To do otherwise would be to negate the purpose of pushing hands, which is fundamental to the art.



And why would a daosist one who embraces the universe as a whole. Yin and Yang and all its manifestations not embrace a fist?

If you are referring to Daoism in general then yes, everything in the universe is part of the Dao. If you are referring to Taiji specifically then I think I have answered your question above. In the same way, you may also want to ask the same question as to why Bagua does not use the punching strike but the palm strike instead, or why there is a "Tie Sha Zhang" (Iron Sand PALM) but not an Iron Sand Fist. Sorry, I cannot give you a full answer to them because I have not practised either of those art.



As far as push hands goes it is “A “just one training exercise not the whole of Taiji.

To the contrary, I believe pushing hands is a very important part of the Taiji curriculum, beacuse it is the crucial link between the form and free fighting. In pushing hands, you learn many things unique only to Taiji, for example:
- Learn to properly apply the eight methods of power;
- Learn to stick and follow and not loose contact or resist;
- Learn to blend in with the opponent's movement so that there is no separation between you and him;
- Develop sensitivity of touch and balance;
- Learn to interpret and understand the opponent's force (ting jin and tong jin);
etc., etc.



On muscle contraction agonistic and antagonistic work together all the time. Power generation is enhanced when the relaxing muscles do not interfere with the contracting muscles. It is the speed of the contraction and the amount of fibers engaged in that contraction minus the drag from tension / contraction of the opposing muscle that generates the power so Song or relaxation is only ½ the equation.

Different groups of muscles contract and relax but as I understand it (sorry, I'm not a doctor), based on a doctor friend of mine, only muscles that are RELAXING release energy; contracting muscles do not. Consequently, cramps arise because muscles could only contract at that stage and NOT RELAX. Anyway, I stand corrected on this point.



As for Yi, intent / mind /body. if there is no separation and yin / yang are one Tao we are moving naturally with no doing and nothing is out of harmony not even a punch , how is this not Taiji?

Sorry, I don't quite understand what you mean here. Certainly everything manifest themselves as yin and yang in different proportions and is indeed Taiji. But if you are referring to Taiji as a TCMA, then there are certain characteristics that make it unique and different from all other martial arts.

I have enjoyed this discussion. I see it as two individuals expressing different views on an aspect of Taiji. There is nothing personal in it. No one is right or wrong but merely a case of how each perceive things from his perspective, that's all. In the end, as in any debate, we can always agree to disgree. But the good thing that came out of this is at least we have an exchange of views without being personal. I wish to thank you for contributing to this debate.

[Happykiwi]

Originally posted by TaiChiBob
[B]Greetings...

Words and writings are abstractions of the process they describe.. observe the form(s), what do you see preserved over centuries of practice.. repetitive use of the punch. 8 this, 5 that 13 other.. just someone's musings regarding the Art itself.. truth is in the experience, not in the words describing it. Way too often students and some noted teachers are deceived by flowing words, grand theories and fanciful notions, but.. truth is in the forms themselves.. fist forms abounded at the conception of Taiji forms, Taiji accepted the existing knowledge of the fist and set about the task of supporting it with appropriate body mechanics and alignment.

Greetings to you too, Bob. I wish you well for 2005.

As I have mentioned to Shang Wu, it is good to hear different views, particularly when we are from different ends of the world. If everyone agrees then this forum would be very boring indeed! Thank God that freedom of expression is STILL permitted, at least in this forum that Gene Ching has provided.

I beg to differ from your view. The whole civilisation is based on words, without which we will not be communicating to each other now. Every form of CMA of substance has its codified form of principles and quotes which make it unique from the rest. Contrary to what you said above, forms may differ greatly within a particular syle of martial art but it is the principles that underpinned their commonality.

Sure, the truth is in the experience but in the experience of what? If you want to practise and experience how Taiji is done then you have to follow the principles. I once went to a Taiji class and the teacher turn on some soothing music and ask the participants to float around like butterflies. After an hour, she said thank you for participating in a free style Taiji class, and promptly left. Then I went to a prominent Muay Thai boxing club that teaches Taiji Muay Thai. It was just like any Muay Thai boxing. The Taiji was just a name to attract people who are more health orientated. People just spent more time knee-ing the sand bags and bashed out their frustrations.

In the 1950's I used to observed many forms of CMA being practised in many parts of Asia and the pre-dominant strike by far, was the palm. Hence, I mentioned Iron Sand Palm because it was very popular at that time, so was Bagua and Taiji. I watched practitioners sparred with one another and not once did I see a punch thrown in the way western boxers do. In all the old wuxia movies (pre 1960) I saw, the palm strike was used almost exclusively, even in the old Kwan Tak Hing movies about Huang Feihong. Around the mid 1960s, Jimmy Wang Yu starred in the very first Chinese martial art movie set in the early 1900s. Jimmy was a Karate exponent and he used the fist and edge of palm strikes almost exclusively. This movie became very popular, smashing all box office records. Other movies followed Jimmy's lead and then in 1969 Bruce Lee came along, with his western style of boxing and Korean/Japanese style high kicks. The rest is history. My point is martial art today is driven by the media and bears little or no resemblance to the traditional Chinese martial art. As a case in point, look at modern Wushu today. It has no practical function other than to look good. I believe punching became prevalent due to media influence, and led to a different interpretation in the Taiji form.

Gene Ching did an interesting interview with Ma Xianda which was published in the Kungfu magazine last year. He talked about when he participated in a full contact CMA competition in the early 1950s. He knew exactly what his opponent practised because a Xingyi exponent would fight like Xingyi, Bagua like Bagua, Taiji like Taiji etc. Later, in the early 1990s,he was asked to lead a national Chinese Wushu team to compete in a Wushu Sanshou competition in Hawaii. He could not tell what form of CMA each competitor specialised in because everyone kicked (or attempt to) like Bruce Lee. Every one punched like a western boxer. There was no attempt whatsoever to use any of the Wushu or CMA techniques. The "book" just got thrown away so to speak. What a waste of time practising CMA in the first place.

Ma's point was nobody now practise CMA in the traditional way, by undestanding and applying the principles. Times have changed, true, people are no longer as dedicated in developing real skills like the good old days.



So, in asking me to "reveal" where the punch is described, i am asking you to practice your forms and explain where you don't see punches.. teachers only point the way to the experience, it is the student that teaches themselves by accepting the experience as part of their knowing. the forms will reveal the principles, and.. unless i'm mistaken, the prevalent use of fists in every form i am familiar with is a clear indication of the intention of the form and its most basic principle.. that a fist is common knowledge, already refined by many systems, it has already displayed its effective usefulness..

I practise the form alot and when my teacher was still alive, he would observe every tiny movement I made and correct the most minute of errors. I asked him specifically about punching in Taiji, which is the same answer I have now given you. In all the time I had known him, I have never seen him thrown a single punch (as in a strike) whether in push hands or free sparring.



There are those that "tilt at windmills", that cry for the ambiguous alternatives, that find their own interpretations superior to centuries of refined practice.. and, they rage against the obvious with a religious passion. Read the classics, do the forms, feel the energy fill your flesh, and.. the fist will reveal itself, as it has for centuries. Put the art to the test, spar with a competent fighter from another style, the fist will reveal itself.. again.. why?.. because it is there, in the form.. for a reason, it works.. and, Taiji refines its usefulness.. Curb your eagerness to be "right", let the forms be right and you will naturally follow..

Be well..

Sorry, not once did I say that my "method" is superior. I'm merely expressing a view different from yours. ( I trust this is still permissible in a free world!) I have read the classics and have not found the "fist" in the 8 methods of power. I have sparred with other style fighters and have never resorted to punching. I have seen competent Taiji exponents take down competent boxers/fighters without a single punch being thrown.

Just my view....cheers!

[bamboo_ leaf]

Interesting thread.

On different occasions I too have been asked about punching in taiji and weather I practice it. Usually this is in reference to bag work and so on. My answer is no, and no I don¡¯t work on heavy bags. this is usaly not understood online but quite clear in person.

The essence to me is in the idea of empty, full, open and close. The shape this takes really depends on the level and ability of a persons taiji. Are you getting there to practice it, or are you there and practicing to deepen it?

I ask this because until you get to apoint where your understanding and practice is there, nothing that anyone says will make sense if there speaking from a differnt place.


(The smallest possible circle will suffice, and the smallest is a "dot") nicely put ;) there is one smaller if you think about it.

(Punching, as any movement requires you to flex your muscles this is basic bio mechanics with out flexing nothing moves.
You can move in anyway with out tension if it is fast twitch or a graduated flexion in other words only using enough strength but not too much and not sustained contraction.)

this is hard to talk about on line, and hard to grasp for most people. In one sense its true in another it is not. If true for the art one practices is means that the body itself is the generator of the force delivered, hence the tensing of muscle groups to unify and maximize the force generated by the body pushing off the ground.

In another sense when talking about taiji, this way of delivering power would be very bad. In taiji what is sought is to be a conduit for energy to express itself. In this thinking the body needs to be very, very soft. In the beginning stages one can see and feel a wave in the body at a later level things start to get smaller. Its more of the interplay of empty and full. The use of overt muscle to move the body is very, very limited. To get an idea sometime watch how a baby walks.

The mind is fixed on some point (the place the baby wants to go), the dantian (stomach) tends to move first the baby then steps and follows this. taiji is like that only the shape is takes is more complicated, more consciously directed.

(your muscles this is basic bio mechanics with out flexing nothing moves.)

sometime just stand, sink and relax. Let the body wt. Fall through the feet though whats called the bubbling wells. If some was to push you at this stage chances are that your body would compress and absorb the force. If your center was not locked or fixed at one point the one pushing would probably fall as they would find nothing to push against.

Now try the same thing with flexing your legs, doing this you have just cut your self off from sinking and connecting with the ground. You have locked your center into a fixed point. Only by bracing your self against the ground would you be able to with stand a force applied as from a push.

Depending on ones art, either on could be correct depending on the practice.

Yes taiji has no punching, the smallest dot is a circle, the body is the hand.:cool:

[Happykiwi]

Originally posted by bamboo_ leaf
[B]Interesting thread.

(The smallest possible circle will suffice, and the smallest is a "dot") nicely put ;) there is one smaller if you think about it.

Bamboo Leaf, thank you for your post. Ah, I think you are alot more erudite with your explantion than I am.
A circle smaller than a dot? Obviously, your knowledge is deeper than mine. Please elaborate.



In another sense when talking about taiji, this way of delivering power would be very bad. In taiji what is sought is to be a conduit for energy to express itself. In this thinking the body needs to be very, very soft....

Okay, reminds me of the saying, "The force springs from the foot, channelled through the legs, controlled by the waist and expressed in the hands and fingers." I guess somebody will just say another mere rhetoric but truly, one needs to experience it to understand what this means. The body must relax to be a good conductor of energy from the foot. Why the foot/leg? Because it is several times stronger than the hand and the lowest possible center of gravity, in other words, better leverage.



Yes taiji has no punching, the smallest dot is a circle, the body is the hand.:cool:

I'm pleased that someone agrees with me and I'm not alone out there...

[Happykiwi]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
So instead, this wave like punching is meant to intercept the incoming strike, strike the incoming troops first. Ask for the hand (or strike it), ask for the other hand, then hit from there.

This is the first punching in taiji that I learned. Hard to expalin the wave like pattern. But hold your arms in the "fence position", close to you. Don't strike out too far. Use the elbow to create the movement but he's powered by the shoulder. It is not too disimiliar from Hsing-I's Horse. Of course, after you train punching your training partners shield and have it, then add foot power and its a nice aproaching punching.

Thank you for your post. Sorry, I don't fully understand your wave-like punching. However, one question I do have is how you can interpret (ting jin) and intercept (hua jin) or neutralize without first having made contact with the opponent in accordance to Taiji techniques? I think eye observation is deceptive and it further gives no indication of the magnitude, source and even direction, of the force.



Then there is also what we call "Dragon Punching." The silly looking move you guys do when you bring both forearms over your head and to the front that looks like you are smashing an invisible gong in the air....

I can only take a guess that you meant "Punch the opponent's ears". A completely different explanation is as follows:

Grasping the opponent's wrists I pull down suddenly (eyes of the tiger pointing toward me) to un-root. When he resists by tensing his arms and leaning backwards, I suddenyly push upwards in the direction of the tension/resistance, in a slight arc using "Punch the Opponent's ears" and he will be thrown a great distance away. If he doesn't resist I will just simply pull him to the ground. If he evades to the left or right then I will use the posture "Hit the Tiger to the Left or Right" as appropriate, still grasping his wrists. From this explanation, it can be clearly seen that understanding the opponent's force and intention is paramount.
Prior to the grasp (making of the fists) there is a gesture where my palms lightly touch each of the opponent's elbow on each side and the lifting motion (ti jin or lifting energy) from the palms will throw the opponent up into the air (force is in the foot, of course). My late teacher used to do this effortlessly on me and I could be tossed as much as 2 metres up into the air.

[bamboo_ leaf]

a little off topic sorry


No dot, no circle, only emptiness :cool:



(Okay, reminds me of the saying, "The force springs from the foot, channelled through the legs, controlled by the waist and expressed in the hands and fingers." I guess somebody will just say another mere rhetoric but truly, one needs to experience it to understand what this means. The body must relax to be a good conductor of energy from the foot. Why the foot/leg? Because it is several times stronger than the hand and the lowest possible center of gravity, in other words, better leverage.)

This is one way of looking at it, another way might be for one to be empty. the fullness of the body has to have some where to go. the legs act as condits to and into the ground, for this they must be relaxed. Before the legs can relax they must first be strong. its not easy.

I go down you go up. This means that your force has been emptied through the other into the earth. For most people the reaction is to jump back as they feel like their falling. Jumping back at the loss of balance is an instinctive reaction. So in this sense taiji is about change empty and full, open and close. Its called transformation

Its not about being hard or soft, this describes a separation, a gap. Taiji has no gaps this is one the things that make it very unique among CMA

(the lowest possible center of gravity, in other words, better leverage.)

the lowest point is the where the mind is, in one sense it has nothing to do with stance or leg strength, (look at pics of the old masters) in another sense to reach this point where it is true, one really has to eat bitter (practice hard) to know it.


every body finds a differnt point in our case we have found the same points :)


(one question I do have is how you can interpret (ting jin) and intercept (hua jin) or neutralize without first having made contact with the opponent in accordance to Taiji techniques?)

First in mind, if you know what intent is YI, and can use this in your practice then this is possible. Relying on only on presser from the touch is to slow, it is a starting point that we all must work from, we talk of ting, listening.

Listening to what? first the bones, then the skin and finely the mind. Using this its possible to lead the mind into emptiness before the touch. The person will fall or stumble. Its not so strange. While going up some stairs either miss a step or step on a step where you think none is. You will find out very quickly how much the mind determines what is real for the body.

http://www.imperialtaichi.com/whatisit.htm

look under the REV link i think you might find it interesting.

I hesitate to list this link for fear of the confusion it seems to cause from the many who view it, but I find that the examples shown, and explanations given illustrate many of the points talked about here rather well.

[Happykiwi]

Originally posted by bamboo_ leaf
No dot, no circle, only emptiness :cool:

Hey, that's cheating. Emptiness did cross my mind (no pun intended) but I think from a dot to emptiness is a huge quantum leap.



This is one way of looking at it, another way might be for one to be empty. the fullness of the body has to have some where to go. the legs act as condits to and into the ground, for this they must be relaxed. Before the legs can relax they must first be strong. its not easy.

I go down you go up. This means that your force has been emptied through the other into the earth. For most people the reaction is to jump back as they feel like their falling. Jumping back at the loss of balance is an instinctive reaction. So in this sense taiji is about change empty and full, open and close. Its called transformation

Its not about being hard or soft, this describes a separation, a gap. Taiji has no gaps this is one the things that make it very unique among CMA.

Great explanation, thank you! You have cleared up some questions I had for a long time.



the lowest point is the where the mind is, in one sense it has nothing to do with stance or leg strength, (look at pics of the old masters) in another sense to reach this point where it is true, one really has to eat bitter (practice hard) to know it.

My late teacher always said, "You want to learn, you must know how to eat bitter (zhi ku)."



First in mind, if you know what intent is YI, and can use this in your practice then this is possible. Relying on only on presser from the touch is to slow, it is a starting point that we all must work from, we talk of ting, listening.

Remember, I'm only a beginner.



Listening to what? first the bones, then the skin and finely the mind. Using this its possible to lead the mind into emptiness before the touch. The person will fall or stumble. Its not so strange. While going up some stairs either miss a step or step on a step where you think none is. You will find out very quickly how much the mind determines what is real for the body.


Funny, I desribed pushing hands with my late teacher as akin to walking around blind folded and suddenly the next step I take, there is no floor! Try walking on uneven ground blind-folded and you will know exactly what I mean!
Li Yiyu talked about the instant a Taiji expert touches an opponent and his listening jin has penetrated his bones. I guess the next highest stage is his the mind. Scary!

Thanks for the website. It is interesting. BTW, is your teacher Master Wei?

[bamboo_ leaf]

no, the teacher is in beijing, the thoughts on the link are very much in accordance with my own exprinences.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings,

Happykiwi: I respect your perspective, but humbly disagree..
The whole civilisation is based on words, without which we will not be communicating to each other now. Every form of CMA of substance has its codified form of principles and quotes which make it unique from the rest. Contrary to what you said above, forms may differ greatly within a particular syle of martial art but it is the principles that underpinned their commonality. Civilization is based on experience.. which is communicated by words.. words elicit a similar memory of a similar experience for comparison between the communicators.. no common experiences render words useless.. one cannot successfully describe the taste of an orange to another that has no experience with similar tastes.. A "codified form of principles and quotes"?, again we differ.. particularly in the art of Taiji.. the "principles that underpin" Taiji do not exclude a punch, they simply don't include its specific shape.. they do, however, support alignment and mechanics that enhance the punches effectiveness..

I practise the form alot and when my teacher was still alive, he would observe every tiny movement I made and correct the most minute of errors. I asked him specifically about punching in Taiji, which is the same answer I have now given you. In all the time I had known him, I have never seen him thrown a single punch (as in a strike) whether in push hands or free sparring With respect for your teacher i must ask if it is possible that his personal experience and its transmission to you comprises the totality of Taiji? I, too, have had teachers (some of the most respected authorities today) instruct me on the value and exquisite detail of the Taiji punch.. who is right and who is wrong? I sense Taiji to "be without limitation", an Art that applies principles to situations.. if the principles enhance the punch and the punch satisfies a situation, where is the contradiction? Moreover, to have a tool of observable value and to train it out of ones range of options seems counter-productive..

My point is there is no punching strike in Taiji because you only issue force when you have contact, NOT before. (If you have no contact, how can you use ting jing in Taiji?) To do otherwise would be to negate the purpose of pushing hands, which is fundamental to the art. Have you never deflected with your forearm and slid a push over your opponent's guard while maintaining contact forearm to forearm? the same push can equally be manifested as a punch, fully in contact and controlling the opponent's guard.. not unlike many Wing Chung or JKD techniques..

I sense an artificial confinement in striving to eliminate the punch from Taiji. Admittedly, it is my personal "last resort", but it is an essential element in my understanding of the Art and as taught by very notable Masters.. The "Quan" in Taijiquan, is routinely translated as "fist" (please, the debate over translations is another story), regardless of the implied meaning(s) the use of this term in naming a "style" hints at its place in the style.. To declare Taiji a "martial art" and then remove the most basic of martial tools, the fist, seems contradictory. I agree with and practice without any dedication to the fist as a primary function of Taiji, but.. similarly, i educate myself and my students according to the elements apparent in the form.. i hope that you can at least admit the presence of fist strikes in the forms, at least the forms i am familiar with, Yang and Chen.. how would you address the question of a student that practices a movement that, by all outward appearances, is a punch.. what are the applications.. like "downward punch", or "strike the tiger's ears", or "cannon fist"..

On a philosophical note, there is only the situation and our training.. if the situation calls for impact with a clenched hand should Taiji avoid that in order to adhere to interpretations of "principles"? is anyone's interpretations superior to the system itself? We may simply agree to diasgree without compromising either perspective.. because in the end, the art will survive independent of our personal beliefs, and.. with or without a "punch" it is still Taiji.. no limits.. "Grand Ultimate"

Be well..

[Ray Pina]

I understand what you gentlemen are saying, and the way you are saying it you are right. But it can be very, very misleading to a newbie interested in taiji reading this type of thing.

The internal martial arts I am training, and taiji is a part of that, is more concerned about quality than technique. Taiji, Hsing-I .... the focus, to me, is on the quality of the movement.

My master set this idea home last night when he said, no matter what surfing ability or technique I have, can I surf the tsunami? It's so fast (600mph) and deep .... even at 10 or 15 feet, it's quality is much more than an average wave.

Yes, taiji is about how to absorb, redirect and issue force. How to generate power from the foot, etc. BUT, and this is a BIG BUT, if all you are doing is stationary push hands, you are being robbed by your teacher or deliberately robbing yourself.

If all you do is push hands, you are also being robbed or robbing yourself..... it is Sticking Hand, Pushing Hand and HITTING Hand. Taiji has striking, locking and throwing. It's all in there.

...

I also only hit the light bag. I have a very small bad filled with beans that I use for punching .... teaches you to throw, not push a punch, and also chase the moving target. I argue wing chun guys are not fully hitting the wooden man, just kind of shake/pushing it, etc.

I have a 40 or 50 lbs bag that I use for elbows and kicks. Same thing, want the feeling of throwing the weapon out.

[Happykiwi]

Originally posted by TaiChiBob
[B]Greetings,

Happykiwi: I respect your perspective, but humbly disagree.. Civilization is based on experience.. which is communicated by words.. words elicit a similar memory of a similar experience for comparison between the communicators.. no common experiences render words useless.. one cannot successfully describe the taste of an orange to another that has no experience with similar tastes.. A "codified form of principles and quotes"?, again we differ.. particularly in the art of Taiji.. the "principles that underpin" Taiji do not exclude a punch, they simply don't include its specific shape.. they do, however, support alignment and mechanics that enhance the punches effectiveness..

Bob, thank you for your reply. Words and reality are two different things. The word is not the thing. This I understand very well, as Zhuangzi once said, "Wisdom is knowing when to stop speaking, because language is inadequate." But I think you have forgotten one thing. You are still using words to communicate with me! LOL
So you must not deny that you are using something that you know is faulty! Oh, if you feel limited, don't forget that the same goes for me. At least we are then on even par. Why would I want you to tell me to describe the taste of orange when I can taste it myself? This is an old religious argument, "No one can speak to or experience God other than through me."

A codified set of principles is important because it distinguishes one form of martial art from another. You are using the old "Jeet Kune Do" argument; no rules no principles. If it works, it is Taiji or JKD, or whatever you may decide to call it. If I flap my hands every morning for 10 seconds every morning in the park, can you deny that I am not doing Taiji? You can't. My body is properly aligned and I can still push people round, so how is it not Taiji? There was a 300lb Australian guy (former wrestler) who went to two Taiji classes and became the Taiji push hands champion in a major competition in China. So, does that make him a Taiji expert?

I once asked my teacher, how do you judge if someone is a good Taiji fighter. He simply replied, "If he uses solely what he practises to defeat an opponent." And what does a Taiji practitioner practises? The 8 methods of power (among other things). If one cannot apply the techniques that one practises day in day out for twenty years, then he is not practising correctly. It is as simple as that.



With respect for your teacher i must ask if it is possible that his personal experience and its transmission to you comprises the totality of Taiji? I, too, have had teachers (some of the most respected authorities today) instruct me on the value and exquisite detail of the Taiji punch.. who is right and who is wrong? I sense Taiji to "be without limitation", an Art that applies principles to situations.. if the principles enhance the punch and the punch satisfies a situation, where is the contradiction? Moreover, to have a tool of observable value and to train it out of ones range of options seems counter-productive..



Whether you practise Yang, old Wu, new Wu, Hao, Sun, Li, Zhang Sanfeng, etc. styles of Taiji (exclude Chen syle because I view that as Pao Chui), you will learn and practise the 8 methods of power. Within this 8 methods of power there is no punching strike. In all the stories I have heard about the Taiji old masters, I have never heard one where the master used a punching strike to knock out an opponent. Isn't it strange given that the punching strike, according to you, would be one of the most important techniques. Surely, the odds have to be stacked in your favor, if your argument is true.

The variations within the 8 methods contain LIMITLESS change. As my teacher once said, with just peng, lu, chi, an, he could defend against any attack.

Lastly, would you argue that Bagua Zhang (PALM) or Iron Sand Palm are incomplete martial art systems simply because they don't use the striking fist?



Have you never deflected with your forearm and slid a push over your opponent's guard while maintaining contact forearm to forearm? the same push can equally be manifested as a punch, fully in contact and controlling the opponent's guard.. not unlike many Wing Chung or JKD techniques..

Deflection is in the nature of a ward-off. A ward-off in Taiji would have thrown the opponent off balance. Striking to deflect will not achieve that but following the opponent's force and leading him to emptiness will.
Why not replace the punch with a palm strike, which I believe a Wing Chun practitioner would use, especially when sliding along the opponent's forearm?



I sense an artificial confinement in striving to eliminate the punch from Taiji.

No, there is no conspiracy here, Bob. Trust me. There just wasn't a need for it, along with the Karate chop or the high TKD kicks, spinning round house kicks, the quick jab, or the poke to the eyes, etc. If we try and add in everything there is in martial art then it would no longer be Taiji, but JEET KUNE DO.



To declare Taiji a "martial art" and then remove the most basic of martial tools, the fist, seems contradictory.

Would you then deny Bagua Zhang or Iron Sand Palm its status as a martial art? If you care to research into the ancient Chinese martial arts, you will find that the palm strike is more prevalent, not the fist. If you look at old documentary CMA clips (pre-1960), you will find the same thing.



how would you address the question of a student that practices a movement that, by all outward appearances, is a punch.. what are the applications.. like "downward punch", or "strike the tiger's ears", or "cannon fist"..

I have already given an explanation for "Strike the Tiger's ears" = "Punch the opponent's ears" in my earlier post. Here are two explanations for "downward punch":

The opponent grasp my wrist firmly so I circle and pull down down (cai or to pluck) as in the posture "Needle in the Ocean", . If the opponent follows, his face will hit my head. If he pulls back, I will step in, make a loose fist to focus my energy to my wrist (point of contact) and FOLLOW by pushing in horizontally at around groin level and he will be thrown out of balance by my ti jin (lifting energy).
Another application, the opponent grasp my wrist and pull me towards him. Following his movement and not resisting, I will sink and drop my hand in an arc like motion, making a loose fist at the same time, and press into his inner thigh using zhen jin or sinking energy (simultaneously stretching the wrist) and he will collapse to the ground.



On a philosophical note, there is only the situation and our training.. if the situation calls for impact with a clenched hand should Taiji avoid that in order to adhere to interpretations of "principles"? is anyone's interpretations superior to the system itself? We may simply agree to diasgree without compromising either perspective.. because in the end, the art will survive independent of our personal beliefs, and.. with or without a "punch" it is still Taiji.. no limits.. "Grand Ultimate"
Be well..

There is no situation in Taiji that calls for a punching strike because it would be going from no contact to full contact. Taiji relies on sensing, evaluating, listening, interpreting of the opponent's energy through CONTACT. (That is why push hands is such an integral part of Taiji which no other form of martial art uses). Taiji uses 4 ounces to defeat 1,000 pounds by following the opponent's path of tension within his body or limbs and applying a small force to throw him out of balance. Taiji is not about delivering a knock-out punch because this technique is best left to a trained boxer who uses his fists as his weapons.

Of course, Taiji will survive longer than you and I would, but in what form? I believe strongly in understanding the principles and applying them to our practice. The ten principles passed down through the Yang family, the 8 methods of power and the 5 directions are to me fundamental to the art. To ignore them would be like practising JKD; no principles, no form, no mind, in which case it might as well be Zen Buddhism.

Cheers!

[Happykiwi]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
If all you do is push hands, you are also being robbed or robbing yourself..... it is Sticking Hand, Pushing Hand and HITTING Hand. Taiji has striking, locking and throwing. It's all in there.



Thanks EvolutionFist for your post. I see your point but isn't Taiji about using 4 ounces to defeat 1,000 pounds? Surely, hitting and striking entail using "li" or brute force. The nature of Taiji is to yield, follow, and draw him into emptiness. The Taiji principles say, "Yong yi bu yong li" or "Use the mind and not physical strength." How do you reconcile these with your understanding?

To me, my measure of a good martial artist is someone who can overcome a physically stronger opponent with the MINIMUM of force. Hence, Pride or K1 or WWF don't interest me at all. (Remember Yang Luchan's comment to Yang Banhou about his torn sleeves?)

[bamboo_ leaf]

(Remember, I'm only a beginner)


It seems there are many points we share in common
Haha, we all beginners :cool:

[Happykiwi]

Originally posted by bamboo_ leaf
(Remember, I'm only a beginner)


It seems there are many points we share in common
Haha, we all beginners :cool:

Truly, I'm not been modest or anything, I am a beginner. If I am an expert, then I wouldn't be in this forum. Because I am still asking questions, therefore I am learning from everyone in this forum.

I just viewed the video clips in the website you referred me to and they all seemed too contrived. With all due respect to Doctor Fung, I think he is way below even my first Taiji teacher, Huang Xiangxian. Teacher Huang could push off ten people (all in line) and you can see one by one, they all get "peeled" off the rank. He could push hands with me while sitting down and still throw me off. In a bow stance, he would have four people pushing into him from four different directions, front, back and two sides, and all four will be thrown off simultaneously. If I have time I will post some of his photos showing all of these. I also have some videos of his demonstrations and training sessions.

Sorry, as to the VEC or VER, I couldn't make any sense of it. My physics sucks, that's all I can say. :(

[bamboo_ leaf]

(I think he is way below even my first Taiji teacher)

doesn¡¯t matter what ones teacher could or can do only what one can do themselves.:cool:

I posted the site only to illustrate some points that I happen to agree with and seemed illustrative of some points brought up.

Ones level of practice is relative, weather one wants to post here or not is a personal matter regardless of skill level. Some ask questions others give advice.

Its always interesting reading different points of view.

[Happykiwi]

Originally posted by bamboo_ leaf
(I think he is way below even my first Taiji teacher)

doesn¡¯t matter what ones teacher could or can do only what one can do themselves.:cool:

I posted the site only to illustrate some points that I happen to agree with and seemed illustrative of some points brought up.

Ones level of practice is relative, weather one wants to post here or not is a personal matter regardless of skill level. Some ask questions others give advice.

Its always interesting reading different points of view.

Yes, you are right. We can learn from people at all levels. I do not mean to offend anyone. Any views expressed are just simply my humble opinion and may or may not be true.
Thank you for pointing this out.

[shang wu]

Hey guys this is getting a bit long winded. But lets try this again, I hear a lot about your preference to use palms but that’s not the point!! Is it?

You can punch from contact.You may not think that it holds to your ideal of Taiji but nonetheless it can and is done.

As for Chen being out side the scope of Taiji where did yang come from? Chen follows all the principals of Taiji from my understanding that’s there source of origin. 8 energies five directions are all present and used.

From a martial arts point of view all this chi stuff has to be expressed within a physical context.( I’m not a big qi guy out side TCM or Qigong )this is not to say that you can’t and I don’t use qigong in Taiji practice .

Complete relaxation is not an accurate physical description. Moving without resistance would better describe this. wuji standing requires flexion , absorbing requires flexion snake creeps down requires strong legs thus flex.

It is moving with out resistance resistance and having a structure that is the source of your perceived strength that is the desire and goal. I say perceived because the strength comes from structure not muscle.

developing proper neurology and structure is the essence of practice then you can free your mind and let your sensing take over and your natural reactions (neurology & structure) will be one with your partner and all things will be happening in the present state of Dao

[Happykiwi]

Originally posted by shang wu
[B]Hey guys this is getting a bit long winded. But lets try this again, I hear a lot about your preference to use palms but that’s not the point!! Is it?

You can punch from contact.You may not think that it holds to your ideal of Taiji but nonetheless it can and is done.

As for Chen being out side the scope of Taiji where did yang come from? Chen follows all the principals of Taiji from my understanding that’s there source of origin. 8 energies five directions are all present and used.



Thanks Shang wu for your comments, which I have taken on board.

I don't personally do any palm strikes per se. I mentioned it as an alternative to the punch. In other words, if I really, really, really, have no choice but to strike with my hand I would rather use the palm than the punch. That is all I meant. In essence, I don't or try not to strike with the palm either.

I think the origin of Taiji is a very complex topic. I have given you Peter Lim's website because he raised some interesting questions about the origin of Taiji. It is best that we leave it as that or if you really want to, you can start a new thread.

As to the rest of your comments, I have nothing more to add other than what I have already said in my previous posts. So I guess I will leave it as that, but hey, I do appreciate your comments and I wish to thank you for participating in this most amicable debate I have been in for a long time! Cheers!

[unixfudotnet]

is your only knowledge of tai chi from reading? the only real way to know tai chi is to just do it.

[bamboo_ leaf]

unixfudotnet,

please be sure to let us know when you start.

[Ray Pina]

"how you can interpret (ting jin) and intercept (hua jin) or neutralize without first having made contact with the opponent in accordance to Taiji techniques?"

The first punching, wave like punching, is meant exactly for this. Strike the incoming blow but don't reach out, it's more of an uppercut so I have a strong structure NOW that we have contact.

"Grasping the opponent's wrists I pull down suddenly "

In our style, there is no Left or Right movement of the hands, and no Up or Down, though the elbows can go there to block. The hands have one job, they tend to go for the neck/chin.

As you spend your energy pulling down, could you not load the other guy to run his hand around and hook you in the head? I welcome this type of thing, because I block with my elbows. But if you're pulling down like that, you open yourself and welcome a running hook.

"isn't Taiji about using 4 ounces to defeat 1,000 pounds?"

In principle, this is a great ideal and should be strived for. But can you do it?

Taiji, to me, is like the ultimate destination, what I'm striving for. But I don't use it as the road map, I use it as a refference of where I want to be.

If you're starting out and you think you can just magically throw people here and there ..... how do you think you get to that position? Do you expect people on the street , who want to kick your a$$ and probbaly have more street experience than you, are just going to walk up to you and give you there hands?

You must deal with their full-power, full-intention punching. The wave punching I wrote about is used to soften up the enemy at this stage so then you can get inside.

My master also hates UFC, KI, Pride, ect, and I understand what he means. I let his borrow my "Smashing Machine" DVD and he said, "They named that right, he's just a machine." Meaning, look at the guy half the time, he's a beaten mess with more muscle than technique.

At the same time, where's taiji? Of all the practitioners -- there's got to be hundreds of thousands, no? -- not one is willing or able to compete in that venue.

I understand, long term, taiji offers great benefits and is a great fighting art if you're lucky enough to have the combination of A) good teacher, B) Good student and C) Good student with a fighting mind.

But don't confuse doing the form according to taiji principles and no-contact push hands with free fighting. You'll find quite often the other guy doesn't quite care about those rules and principles and will more than welcome you using only 4 oz. of pressure and no punching.... I'll fight the Hulk if he promises not to punch me.

[bamboo_ leaf]

(not one is willing or able to compete in that venue.)

Including your teacher or does he compete? what or why would some one want to compete in that venue? For what? Money, fame ? ah must be the testing of ones self that many mention.

If people think that others do not test it out, this is good, I think running into some one competent in taiji they would soon understand that this is not true. peopel test things in ways that make sense to them, not the peanut gallery. :cool:

[Ray Pina]

Well, my master is rich, has his name and is 64 years old ... so I don't see him jumping into a cage any time soon. But I have seen first hand what he can do. There is a UFC fighter with a school less than 2 miles away from where I write this, but yet I travel 30 miles (60 minutes) into Chinatown to train with my master.

I do understand what you are saying though, and certainly, one does what one likes.

But as a writer, I can't measure my success against some high school freshman's book report, I have to look towards the masters if I really want to see how I compare. It's a matter of standard.

My standard is, "Compete with anyone under any conditions." I'm not saying I am there yet, but that is certainly the goal.

Otherwise, it's like a kid who studies Wing Chun from time to time fighting against a kid who studies Hung Gar from time to time and then the winner claiming their style reigns supreme. How would they stack up against the ametuer Tai Boxer? Against the amatuer MMA? Against just a regular tough kid from around the way?

There is no doubt that Taiji, in the proper hands, is very effective.
But the typewriter in my hands and Hemmingway's hands .... that's two different things.

[Happykiwi]

Originally posted by shang wu
[B]You can punch from contact.You may not think that it holds to your ideal of Taiji but nonetheless it can and is done.


Shang wu, there is one point I would like to raise which I hope you will find of interest or useful. Taiji issues or receives force at the point of contact. If it is the forearm than the energy transfer will be on the forearm, if the shoulder then it will be from the shoulder. To respond with the punch would be too slow because you have to first remove your hand from contact and then for the fist to travel a distance.
To further illustrate my point, I had three different teachers at different times who would invite me to snatch or grab an object in their hands. This could be a basketball, soccer ball, walking cane, umbrella, or even a sweat towel (this was held by the teacher at each end). The rule is if I can hang on to the object for more than 10 seconds without losing contact or fall over then I am the winner. Their listening jin was so good that they could easily and CONTINUALLY lead me to emptiness. As a result, I was continually losing my balance and a slight force would send me sprawling on the ground because I was already out of balance in the first place. All three different teachers who themselves studied with three different teachers. Coincidence or common skills derived from one set of Taiji principles?
The point is there must be contact and the contact point could be an object (which is just an extension of the hand) and force or energy is transferred at that point of contact. No striking using any limb is necessary. This to me is Taiji.

[Ray Pina]

"The point is there must be contact and the contact point could be an object (which is just an extension of the hand) and force or energy is transferred at that point of contact."

Why can't that point be the fist?


"To respond with the punch would be too slow because you HAVE TO FIRST remove your hand from contact"

"because you HAVE TO FIRST remove your hand from contact"

"because you HAVE TO FIRST remove your hand from contact"

You should be able to hit right from where you are without drawing back if you understand the shoulder and foot.

[Happykiwi]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
"isn't Taiji about using 4 ounces to defeat 1,000 pounds?"

In principle, this is a great ideal and should be strived for. But can you do it?

Taiji, to me, is like the ultimate destination, what I'm striving for. But I don't use it as the road map, I use it as a refference of where I want to be.

If you're starting out and you think you can just magically throw people here and there ..... how do you think you get to that position? Do you expect people on the street , who want to kick your a$$ and probbaly have more street experience than you, are just going to walk up to you and give you there hands?

You must deal with their full-power, full-intention punching. The wave punching I wrote about is used to soften up the enemy at this stage so then you can get inside.

EvolutionFist, thank you for your post. You may have misquoted me in a few places but this is not important.

I don't see how using force against force will help you realise the principle of using 4 ounces to defeat 1,000 pounds. I also don't see how your wave punch will help you determine what amount of (minimum) energy, in what direction and most importantly, help you align your force to his center of gravity so that you can unbalance him all at the same time. Otherwise, why practise push hands then?
Push hands is the FIRST step to developing sensitivity to your opponent's incoming force, no matter what the direction. You start off lightly and then as you become more skillful, your opponent can increase his force and speed. Developing good push hands skill is about INVESTING IN LOSS and not about inflating your ego. It is about been able to willingly accept being thrown around and landing on your bum. Every fall is a lesson, why did I fall, did I relax and try and neutralize his force?, etc. You must continually learn from each fall. You must continually learn not to resist but to follow and yet not lose contact. It is about learning to yield to his force as in to neutralize, and lead him to emptiness, all using the minimum amount of your own energy.
When you have good mastery of push hands then you can practise san shou where the opponent can come in from long range and try and strike you with his fist and leg. You use the same technique you have mastered in push hands. The key is to pracise how to close the gap and make contact. Ask the question, why are grapplers winning most of the free fighting contests? Grapplers are close contact fighters, just as much as are Taiji fighters.



At the same time, where's taiji? Of all the practitioners -- there's got to be hundreds of thousands, no? -- not one is willing or able to compete in that venue.

Try this simple Taiji exercise. Take a bow stance with your weight in the front foot, knee bent to the toe line, your thigh parallel to the floor (in other words, sit into the hip joint such that it is lower than your knee) and the knee MUST NOT go past your knee (vertical line). Back leg is straight. Keep your back straight and try stepping forward with your back leg WITHOUT changing the height of your body. This is a basic ROOTING exercise. Remember the Taiji saying, "The force springs from the foot, chanelled through the legs..." Now, how strong are your legs?
(In the old days, practitioners practise under a low table, no more than 4 and a half to 5 feet high, for HOURS.)

Note that this is just a BASIC exercise. I have not even talked about the really hard stuff yet. If practitioners today cannot even do a BASIC Taiji exercise, how do you expect them to be able to fight using Taiji techniques? If teachers demand that students perfect this exercise first, would they expect to have any students left after say, three days?



But don't confuse doing the form according to taiji principles and no-contact push hands with free fighting. You'll find quite often the other guy doesn't quite care about those rules and principles and will more than welcome you using only 4 oz. of pressure and no punching.... I'll fight the Hulk if he promises not to punch me.

By the same token, how can you expect a Taiji prctitioner to fight full contact USING Taiji techniques if he has not even mastered the basic technique of rooting, or "bu diu bu ding" (not losing contact and not resisting), just to name two?

[Happykiwi]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
Why can't that point <of contact> be a fist?
You should be able to hit right from where you are without drawing back if you understand the shoulder and foot. [/B]

How can you hold or touch something with a clenched fist? The tactile sensory nerves are most concentrated on the skin of the palms and fingers, not on the knuckles. That is why you test something hot with your fingers and not with your knuckles. Similarly, a doctor takes a patient's pulse using his fingers, not his knuckles.
Why don't people practise Taiji push hands with clenched fists? If you practise push hands with open palms but fight with a clenched fist then aren't you not utilising what you practised? When you practise the saber, why do you have an open palm with the non-weapon hand? Why not a fist? Just some questions I have.

[Happykiwi]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist

Why can't that point be the fist?



Sorry, to draw another example, I would like to recount a story about about Yang Luchan. This story can be verified independently by searching the net yourself. It is a well known story and not something obscure that im have dreamed up.

Once YLC had a visitor who was a Shaolin monk. They bowed and greeted each other but without warning, the monk suddenly strike with a punch at YLC's chest. YLC had little time to react. He depressed his chest (han xiong ba bei) and gently patted the monk's rapidly approaching fist (as in the opening move of the Taiji form) with his PALM. The monk was instantly thrown off the ground. When he hit the wall behind him, he was still holding his fist in exactly the same position as at the moment YLC's palm made contact with his fist.

Now, question. Irrespective of whether the story is true or not, why was it not reported that YLC used a wave punch or a fancy block or even a peng jin but precisely and very "unlikely" a PALM? Wouldn't his natural reaction or instinct (per Bob) be to use a deflecting punch or a block with his forearm?

[omarthefish]

why was it not reported that YLC used a wave punch...

Because "wave punch" is a funny made up term that only just started surfacing recently.

...or a fancy block or even a peng jin but precisely and very "unlikely" a PALM?

Beacause that's how normal people talk when they are telling stories. I have a source on what specific technique Han Mu Xia used to defeat the Russian wrestler but if you look for the story online or in a bookstore most will just say, "...and he hit him...."

But just for ****s and giggles, I wan't to hear how you explain why "Brush, step forward and Punch" is actually not a punch. Your explanation of "shuang gou" aka "shuang feng gui er" was not bad actually although a little misguided in my opinion.

[Happykiwi]

Originally posted by omarthefish
Beacause that's how normal people talk when they are telling stories. I have a source on what specific technique Han Mu Xia used to defeat the Russian wrestler but if you look for the story online or in a bookstore most will just say, "...and he hit him...."

Uhm, no. I don't think normal people would care to report such an incident. I don't know Han Mu Xia so I can't comment. But how do you know your version is more accurate than the rest? As in the case of the story I have recounted, there is only one version. You may also refer to the Chronicles of Yongnian County to verify for yourself. I would be very interested if you can direct me to another source showing a different version of the story.

You know, there is an old Chinese saying, "When there is no trust no proof is necessary; when there is none no proof is POSSIBLE." If you WANT to believe something, then everything is true.



But just for ****s and giggles, ....

Just for everyone's entertainment, why don't you explain? Isn't what is good enough for one just as good for another?



wan't to hear how you explain why "Brush, step forward and Punch" is actually not a punch. Your explanation of "shuang gou" aka "shuang feng gui er" was not bad actually

I have already explained, within the eight methods of power peng, lu, chi, an, cai, lei, zhou, kao; there is no punching strike. Cui was used in the description of the posture to make it easy for people to understand that a soft loose fist was made. The jin dian is in the wrist, not the fist.



...although a little misguided in my opinion.

It is good that we are here sharing opinions and not universal truths. Thank you for noting that.

[shang wu]

happy kiwi

I’ve been looking at Peter lim’s site, wow! This guy has put some work into putting all this together, fascinating stuff. I love to read this and think about how things were and who did what and when. I have always known of the shao Lin connection to Chen’s pow choi and its connection to red fist. I think it’s what they did with it that makes Taiji, and as for yi Lu a connection to yang its plane to see. Although fa jing is in the form and that there is rapid and vigorous combined with the smooth and continuous in yi lu it is working all aspects of Taiji. Thanks for all the insight and even if we don’t agree it would be nice to push some time so I could punch you just for fun lol. Hope you have a great year….. Art

[Happykiwi]

Originally posted by shang wu
happy kiwi

I’ve been looking at Peter lim’s site, wow! This guy has put some work into putting all this together, fascinating stuff. I love to read this and think about how things were and who did what and when. I have always known of the shao Lin connection to Chen’s pow choi and its connection to red fist. I think it’s what they did with it that makes Taiji, and as for yi Lu a connection to yang its plane to see. Although fa jing is in the form and that there is rapid and vigorous combined with the smooth and continuous in yi lu it is working all aspects of Taiji. Thanks for all the insight and even if we don’t agree it would be nice to push some time so I could punch you just for fun lol. Hope you have a great year….. Art

Thanks Shang Wu, I also learned alot from you. Take care of yourself and see you around! :)

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by Happykiwi
[B]Uhm, no. I don't think normal people would care to report such an incident.

Sure they do, that's how they become legends. Who was there to witness the event? What was abnormal about him?


I don't know Han Mu Xia so I can't comment. But how do you know your version is more accurate than the rest?

It's not more accurate, only more detailed.


As in the case of the story I have recounted, there is only one version. You may also refer to the Chronicles of Yongnian County to verify for yourself. I would be very interested if you can direct me to another source showing a different version of the story.

Your version sums it up just fine. In ordinary speech, he used his palm to deflect the punch. It doesn't imply anything at all about punching being used or not used in Taijiquan. That's just a silly idea. You have made up a bunch of fantasy garbage about what is or is not a punch but it's just playing semantics. If you fa jin and the point of contact is a closed fist....ta dah...you just punched someone.


You know, there is an old Chinese saying, "When there is no trust no proof is necessary; when there is none no proof is POSSIBLE." If you WANT to believe something, then everything is true.

Except for the typo that's good advice. Relevence?


Just for everyone's entertainment, why don't you explain? Isn't what is good enough for one just as good for another?

Sure: It is commonly used to punch someone. Here's the sequence:

bo 拨 --〉jin bu 进步 --〉bo 拗 --〉juan 卷 --〉fu zhang 伏掌 --〉chong quan 冲拳

chong quan means "straight punch". In application it is used to punch someone.....straightly. And I laughed at your explanation of "punching to the ears" because it was in fact a valid enough application. But a nice one. Throwing people away in that fasion is being nice. You can jsut as easily use it to smash them on either side of the head. My teacher, to be nice, instead of throwing you off like you described likes to bring his hands together with a loud *smash* in front of your face sometimes just clpping the tip of your nose and then sonce his palms are already together in front he will take a little bow and say, "amituofo....", with a little smile.

The whole argument jsut stinks of heybrow "we are special"ness. You can punch or you can not punch. The choice is up to you. Tell me where in the classics it says anything else. You already tried that once in mentioning "4 oz. deflect 1000 lbs." Irrelevent. You deflect the attack and PUNCH and you are in full accordance with that principle.

ti, da, shuia and na.

These are the 4 cornerstones of CMA including Taijiquan.

Do you even know what the verb "to punch" is in Chinese?

[RAF]

Originally posted by Happykiwi
How can you hold or touch something with a clenched fist? The tactile sensory nerves are most concentrated on the skin of the palms and fingers, not on the knuckles. That is why you test something hot with your fingers and not with your knuckles. Similarly, a doctor takes a patient's pulse using his fingers, not his knuckles.
Why don't people practise Taiji push hands with clenched fists? If you practise push hands with open palms but fight with a clenched fist then aren't you not utilising what you practised? When you practise the saber, why do you have an open palm with the non-weapon hand? Why not a fist? Just some questions I have.

You don't hold a clenched fist. The fist is held such that a pencil can be dropped through it. At the point of contact, the knuckle serves as the initial delivery and the fist collapses delivering power from the legs, through the waist, shoulder, arm etc.etc..

It follows the same principle as ta zhang, collapsing palm, where the finger tips make the initial contact and followed up by the heel of the hand. This follows the same principle path of power transformation.

In the taiji dao, some movement do indeed require the same held fist.

There is nothing magical about taijiquan.

[Happykiwi]

Originally posted by omarthefish
It's not more accurate, only more detailed.

More detailed doesn't make it more accurate. BTW, green shirt or yellow skirt?



Your version sums it up just fine. In ordinary speech, he used his palm to deflect the punch.

Did I say "deflect"?



chong quan means "straight punch".

I think not because it is a punch into emptiness.



ti, da, shuia and na.
These are the 4 cornerstones of CMA including Taijiquan.


Aren't you limiting what CMA is? How can you say these are the cornerstones when you have not listed all the CMAs, known and unknown? Shouldn't you first learn all the martial arts before attempting to summarise? Isn't it much like saying, "Oh, I know by sitting on a chair somewhere in China."

[Happykiwi]

Originally posted by RAF
You don't hold a clenched fist. The fist is held such that a pencil can be dropped through it. At the point of contact, the knuckle serves as the initial delivery and the fist collapses delivering power from the legs, through the waist, shoulder, arm etc.etc..

It follows the same principle as ta zhang, collapsing palm, where the finger tips make the initial contact and followed up by the heel of the hand. This follows the same principle path of power transformation.

In the taiji dao, some movement do indeed require the same held fist.

There is nothing magical about taijiquan.

Thanks RAF, interesting explanation.

[Happykiwi]

Originally posted by omarthefish
My teacher, to be nice, instead of throwing you off like you described likes to bring his hands together with a loud *smash* in front of your face sometimes just clpping the tip of your nose and then sonce his palms are already together in front he will take a little bow and say, "amituofo....", with a little smile.

Sounds good but unfortunately it does not fit in with the saying, "4 ounces to defeat 1,000 pounds", so it cannot be Taiji.



Do you even know what the verb "to punch" is in Chinese?

No, because there is no verb in Chinese unless you are a westerner trying to learn Chinese.

[omarthefish]

4 oz vs. 1000lb...

Sure it does. That's a reference to hua jin or the appropriate use of deflection. If you can only put out 4oz of pressure than all you can do is a massage and a wimpy one at that. Even if you are "borrowing force" then you are still delivering a hell of a lot more than 4 oz.

Second,

That was a trick question about the verb for "punch" but you are wrong. Of course Chinese has verbs.

I bring it up because you are trying to make a point about what does or does not define a punch based on striking surface or levels of relaxation or power generation and the fact of the matter is, there's just hitting mentioned. No mention of "punching" per se because there's no word for it. You can use your hand, fist, elbow, forehead, shoulder or even your nose if you are so inclined it's still "da" and there most definately IS "da" in taijiquan.

I also selected the sequence "step forward cover and punch" because unlike the "punch to ears" the original Chinese terminology is far less abiguous. "chong quan" means "punch" pretty much any way you look at it.

"chong" = to charge forth; to blast out
"quan" = fist.
"chongquan" = to throw a punch.


No, because there is no verb in Chinese unless you are a westerner trying to learn Chinese.

It makes me wonder why Chinese dictionaries and even the Chinese textbooks they give to Chinese kids in China still classify Chinese words as verbs, nouns, adjectives etc.
Furthermore, I am not a westerner "trying to learn Chinese" I speak it. Not perfectly but I am past the stage of struggling with it and carrying a dictionary around with me. My GF tells me I even sometimes speak it in my sleep.

Second of all, on linguistic questions like that one I generally check with the natives before I post. My "local expert" when asked if there was any specific verb for "punch" said she couldn't think of any at the time. Maybe later she'll come up with one.

I'll be happy to be corrected by any native speakers here who want to tell me that Chinese actually only has verbs if you are a westerner.

[Ray Pina]

HappyKiwi,

I think we are just taking a different aproach. Just because I choose to use my fist, does not mean that I employ techniques of force against force. In fact, at 200lbs, most of my apponants tend to be bigger, because the weight in competition tends to be 198lbs. and up. I'm also 30 years old and most of the guys I fight with are in their low 20s.

As for "sensitivity", you most certainly can "read" a person's weight distribution, center and intent from striking their bridge with your fist. Your implication that you can't, and then the martial arts 101 example of knees never going over the toes (I have 26 years of MA experience, believe me, I've done that and many more "stance" drills) leaves me scratching my head (what the hell is he talking about?)

I sometimes have difficulty maintaining these debates, because they can go back and forth forever. And for some reason in internal martial arts, you can throw someone from wall to wall and they'll still have the nerve to tell you you were doing it wrong (scratches head again).

If you have worked these principles out for yourself and have made them work against a fully resisting apponant, then that's awesome. You found what works for you. If you haven't, you should say, "I think" or "My teacher says" blah, blah, blah.

I read a sign at the deli (they post insperational stuff daily) that said: When you talk about something you really don't know, it's hard to know when to stop talking.

[Liokault]

So your saying that if you apply more than 4oz its not ati chi?

Then you say that your teacher can send 4 guys flying in differant directions......there standing still so hes not borrowing there force.

So the average guy weighs 170 pounds (say), to get a 170 pound guy to move from a standing start requires 170 lb + of force.....to send the flying requires 170lb times what ever.

Sounds like your teachers not doing tai chi.

Or hes teaching bullshiit.

Or more likely both.

[bamboo_ leaf]

(So the average guy weighs 170 pounds (say), to get a 170 pound guy to move from a standing start requires 170 lb + of force.....to send the flying requires 170lb times what ever.)

yes this is true but it is also true that the mind weighs nothing, one just needs to lead it the rest will follow. Do not confuse borrowing something with possessing it.

(But as a writer, I can't measure my success against some high school freshman's book report, I have to look towards the masters if I really want to see how I compare. It's a matter of standard.)

this is not directed at anyone in particular, I would say sorry for being off topic but I think we all lost it a little while back.

The masters, present and past. If one reads the accounts of many of the past masters it wasn¡¯t so much that they beat someone but the way in which it was done was important. It defined the style and their ability with it. In my own experience all of the people that I have met whom I consider high level can do most if not all the things that one would associate with taiji abilities.

Happykiwi (In the 1950's I used to observed many forms of CMA being practised in many parts of Asia)

Has seen many things and had some unique experiences, some of which i can relate to.

(Their listening jin was so good that they could easily and CONTINUALLY lead me to emptiness. As a result, I was continually losing my balance and a slight force would send me sprawling on the ground because I was already out of balance in the first place. All three different teachers who themselves studied with three different teachers. Coincidence or common skills derived from one set of Taiji principles?)

My point being that talking of standards is relative to ones experiences and expectations.

[Liokault]

Originally posted by bamboo_ leaf

yes this is true but it is also true that the mind weighs nothing, one just needs to lead it the rest will follow.








Ah I understand.....your saying that the guy convinces students to fly back?

I belive that this is done when students have invested so much time in a teacher (of bullshiit) that they can not bring them selvs to belive that there teacher can be wrong.....so when he says 'fly back' they do!

I saw a demo once by a guy who threw about 15 of his students around once.....at the end of his demo 2 of them had forgotten to fall over, so he looked at them and clicked his fingers......down they go. LOL they were not even close to him.


Bullshiit like most of this thread is killing tai chi

[bamboo_ leaf]

(Ah I understand.....your saying that the guy convinces students to fly back?)

next time you site in a chair that some has pulled out really think of why you fell down even if you noticed in time it would be to late.

(I saw a demo once by a guy who threw about 15 of his students around)

next time call him on it, you or he may be surprised
:cool:

[Liokault]

ok, so with the chair, im putting 14 (lol i gained a bit) stone onto somthing which suddenly is not there.

Ok i understand the physics there.

Now 4 guys surounding 1 man......all fly back .....hmmmmm odd that.

I'm betting they were his students.

Now dont get me wrong, I have made guys 'fly across the room' but only wshen they have been stupid enough to put alot of weight forwards at a time when they were not expecting me to remove my resistance.

[kung fu fighter]

Hi,
Does the tai chi punching mechanics produced the same power as the punching mechanics of western boxing. It seems to me that you get more hip rotation power with the western boxing method by raising the rear heel. Does tai chi also raise the rear heel in advance levels when punching? Can someone discribe the the tai chi punching body mechanics as well as how internal power (chi) in integrated into it to produce fa jing. How can you transfer this power through 16oz boxing gloves like in a san shou competition.
I studied Chen style tai chi for just over a year and would like to understand the science behind "fa jing" in this system instead of all the mysticism that you normally hear.

thanks
kung fu fighter

[Ray Pina]

Well, my understanding of lifting the back heel is this. When I train, I drive off the back leg and focus on keeping the heel on the ground to train and reinforce the idea that the foot supplies the power and so make the most of it.

When I fight, the heel comes off the ground because I'm not worried about it. I drive hard off the leg to put my body behind the punch and to close the distance so the heel comes up. This is more powerful than if I forced myself to adhere to a training principle, like "Keep the heal on the ground."

Of course the boxing glove takes some off, but the palm of the glove has no padding, and when you're punchign well a good shot to the forearm becomes annoying after one or two. I just had a rough lesson in this about a year ago, and have spent the 12 months trying to find a middle ground between what I like to do and what is allowed, or point worthy in San Da. Just a little fine tuning. Mostly worked on my clinch skills so not to get thrown. Usually I'd prefer to go down on my own and keep fighting that resist and get thrown badly.
....

"it wasn't so much that they beat someone but the way in which it was done "

I agree with you on the main point, but disagree in another area:

I could look **** good while getting my a$$ kicked, what matters in combat first and foremost is selfpreservation and then victory.

At the same time, relying on brute strenght for victory ... sooner or later you'll get got. The US experienced this in Vietnam, is experiencing it in Iraq and the small Gracies proved this a while ago.

You have to find a way that lasts, so the old can beat the young, the small the big, the slow the fast.

[Happykiwi]

Originally posted by omarthefish
[B]4 oz vs. 1000lb...

Sure it does. That's a reference to hua jin or the appropriate use of deflection. If you can only put out 4oz of pressure than all you can do is a massage and a wimpy one at that. Even if you are "borrowing force" then you are still delivering a hell of a lot more than 4 oz.

Thank you omarfish. A serious answer deserves a serious response.
Of course, a 4oz force is a metaphorical description. It depends on how the 4oz is applied. If you were to STRIKE someone with 4oz then you are right it would be a wimpy massage. However, if one is finely balanced on a 4oz tightrope even a gentle breeze can make him loose his balance.
Going to your example of "Punch the Opponent's ears", the chances of hitting the opponent with such a move is very remote unless (a)he has no hands and (b) his head is perfectly stationary.
Taiji does not use the same techniques of hitting and striking an opponent in the way that Shaolin fighting arts do. The essence of Taiji is in the 13 postures (peng, lu, ji, an, cai, lie, zhou, kao, jin, tui, gu, pan, and ding). When the opponent is hard I am soft, this is called "zhou" (yield). When I follow harmoniously and the opponent gets backed up, this is called "can" (adhere). I must not lose contact or resist (bu tiu bu ding) but use "nian jing" (sticking). I must utilise "listening" (ting jing) to detect the oppopnent's strength and its source. When I understand this (dong jing) then I can apply the technique of "sui ren zhi shi, jie ren zhi li" (following his movement and borrowing his strength). This then is using 4 ounces to defeat 1,000 pounds.



Second,
That was a trick question about the verb for "punch" but you are wrong. Of course Chinese has verbs....
Second of all, on linguistic questions like that one I generally check with the natives before I post. My "local expert" when asked if there was any specific verb for "punch" said she couldn't think of any at the time. Maybe later she'll come up with one.

If a native speaker cannot think of it how do you expect me to?

"Verb" is a western word not originally used by the Chinese to learn Chinese. A single word in Chinese means nothing because it gives no intention to what you are trying to describe. Hence "da" CAN mean hit and "sanda" means "free fighting"- a NOUN but "dazhiji" is a typewriter- another NOUN. Then, "da ban" means to "make up" and "dazhu yi" means to "plan"; both have nothing to do with to "hit". Neither has "da shui" which means to fetch water (from the well).



I bring it up because you are trying to make a point about what does or does not define a punch based on striking surface or levels of relaxation or power generation and the fact of the matter is, there's just hitting mentioned. No mention of "punching" per se because there's no word for it. You can use your hand, fist, elbow, forehead, shoulder or even your nose if you are so inclined it's still "da" and there most definately IS "da" in taijiquan.

"Da" can mean to fight ("Hao, wo men lai da kan sui ying"= Let us fight and see who wins). "Ta da wo" means he 'hit" (for lack of a better equivalent word in English) me but it does not NECESSARILY tell you how or what technique he used to "hit" me. (I once pushed someone and knocked him against the wall and he later complained to the school teacher that I "da" or hit him). It could be a grapple and not necessarily a punch. Westerners tend to think of "punching and striking" because these concepts are ingrained in their thinking.




I also selected the sequence "step forward cover and punch" because unlike the "punch to ears" the original Chinese terminology is far less abiguous. "chong quan" means "punch" pretty much any way you look at it.

"chong" = to charge forth; to blast out
"quan" = fist.
"chongquan" = to throw a punch.

I have not encountered any of these in my understanding of the 13 postures in Taiji.

[Happykiwi]

Originally posted by Liokault
ok, so with the chair, im putting 14 (lol i gained a bit) stone onto somthing which suddenly is not there.

Ok i understand the physics there.

Now 4 guys surounding 1 man......all fly back .....hmmmmm odd that.

I'm betting they were his students.

Now dont get me wrong, I have made guys 'fly across the room' but only wshen they have been stupid enough to put alot of weight forwards at a time when they were not expecting me to remove my resistance.

Yes, odd. When Laozi spoke of the "dao" people laughed at him.

But on a more serious note, yes you can throw people off without using much of your own energy. It is called "yin jing ru kong" or "to attract the opponent into emptiness" and "jie ren zhi li" or "borrowing his strength". In other words, it is "jie jing" or receiving energy and applying "leng jing" or "cold energy".

Of course, "4oz" is a metaphorical expression. A better word is "MINIMUM" force. This then is matched according to one's ability not to use (excessive) brute force.

[Happykiwi]

Originally posted by Liokault
So your saying that if you apply more than 4oz its not ati chi?

Then you say that your teacher can send 4 guys flying in differant directions......there standing still so hes not borrowing there force.

So the average guy weighs 170 pounds (say), to get a 170 pound guy to move from a standing start requires 170 lb + of force.....to send the flying requires 170lb times what ever.

Sounds like your teachers not doing tai chi.

Or hes teaching bullshiit.

Or more likely both.

Oops, sorry I have overlooked this post! Please refer to my previous post above for my response.

[Happykiwi]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
[At the same time, relying on brute strenght for victory ... sooner or later you'll get got. The US experienced this in Vietnam, is experiencing it in Iraq and the small Gracies proved this a while ago.

You have to find a way that lasts, so the old can beat the young, the small the big, the slow the fast. [/B]

So true. When young, people do not know how to harness the energy they have. When old, they lament over what they no longer have.

[Happykiwi]

Okay, my last post. This is a joke and is not intended to offend anyone.

Objective: How to move a 1,000 pound ox.

Scenario A: Guy approaches ox by threatening with his fists. Ox looks at him with his little eyes and waves back with his two massive horns. Guy thinks the better of it. He approaches from the rear instead and throws a few punching strikes at the ox's rear end. The ox ignored his aggressive gestures. Guy got frustrated and moved round and stuck his hand up the ox's bum. Ox craps and presents him with a load of bull**** (no pun intended). Guy was getting really upset and drops his pants to reveal his secret weapon, the cannon fist. Ox flicks his tail and gave guy a mouthful of flies and a few lices to boot. Guy comes forward intending to do the dirty deed. Ox was disgusted and kicks the guy in the nuts with its hoof. Guy fell to the ground and was knocked out cold. So much for that.

Scenario B: Smart guy approaches ox with a calm, relaxed, and friendly demeanor. He offers some fresh grass to the ox and patted its nose. Next, he strings a 4oz string through the ox's nose. A gentle tug and the ox follows obediently behind him. Now, this is what I called good Taiji!

Thank you everyone for your contributions to this thread. My apology to Omarfish for losing my composure somewhat and thank you for gently leading me back to the discusssion at hand. This is my last post and I bid everyone a happy and prosperous year ahead. And oh, don't forget Chinese New Year on Feb 9, when the rooster crows...Ciao!:)

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by Happykiwi However, if one is finely balanced on a 4oz tightrope even a gentle breeze can make him loose his balance.

But there's more to Taijiquan than just unbalancing people. If it is TaijiQUAN then the unbalancing is just a setup. You let them fall into your strike or you joint lock or throw.


Going to your example of "Punch the Opponent's ears", the chances of hitting the opponent with such a move is very remote unless (a)he has no hands and (b) his head is perfectly stationery.

...or you have the ability to lead into emptiness and to listen, stick and follow. The set up is typically the same as the one you described. Only the ending is different. I know the chances aren't that slim because I've seen it applied countless times...on me...on other students....on martial artists who aren't his students. Granted he doesn't actually box their ears but he slams his palms together infront of your face so hard the wind blows your bangs back. Sometimes he clips the tip of your nose. Partly it's incredible speed but more than that the circles he describes with his hands end up leading your own arms out of the way. Another variation I have seen is to clap the hands together over your head bringing them down ina a 2 handed chop to the bai hui point.


Taiji does not use the same techniques of hitting and striking an opponent in the way that Shaolin fighting arts do.

Sure. I'll give you that. But they still hit and strike, including punching...just differently.


The essence of Taiji is in the 13 postures. When the opponent is hard I am soft, this is called "zhou" (yield).
I know your trying to quote classics at me but "zhou" is the wrong word. I can't find any word that makes sense with that "spelling". In the 13 Postures "zhou" means "elbow".


When I follow harmoniously and the opponent gets backed up, this is called "can" (adhere). I must not lose contact or resist (bu tiu bu ding) but use "nian jing" (sticking). I must utilise "listening" (ting jing) to detect the oppopnent's strength and its source. When I understand this (dong jing) then I can apply the technique of "sui ren zhi shi, jie ren zhi li" (following his movement and borrowing his strength). This then is using 4 ounces to defeat 1,000 pounds.

Yeah, I've read that before too. I'm not really so interested in matching quotes with you. Standard "spelling" for "adhering" jsut for your notes, is "zhan" not "can". But really, that's not what "13 Postures" refers to. A quick web search and you should be able to find them. It's actually pretty specific. The ramifications and applications are deep but of the 13, you didn't even list one of them.



If a native speaker cannot think of it how do you expect me to?

I didn't. I was trying to make a point about getting hung up on defining what makes one guy hitting you "a punch" and the Taiji guy hitting you not "a punch".


"Verb" is a western word not originally used by the Chinese to learn Chinese.

Maybe not "originally" as the methods probably don't go back to the fuedal period but as long as they have had modern schools they had studied grammar much like we do. Verbs, nouns, subject, predicate blah blah blah . . .


A single word in Chinese means nothing because it gives no intention to what you are trying to describe.

A single character often has a vague meaning but "words" are specific. Also, this is not an absolute rule just an interesting trait of MANY but not ALL Chinese characters.


Hence "da" CAN mean hit and "sanda" means "free fighting"- a NOUN but "dazhiji" is a typewriter- another NOUN. Then, "da ban" means to "make up" and "dazhu yi" means to "plan"; both have nothing to do with to "hit".

This just points up the difference I alluded to earlier about the difference between "words" and "characters". "da" can be used as a word on it's own or combined with other characters to make different words just like we do with greek and latin in English.


"Da" can mean to fight. But it does not tell you how or what technique you use to fight. It could be a grapple and not necessarily a punch.

Not really. daJIA means "fight". You combine "da" with another character to make the word for fight. When my students complain, "Teacher...he HIT me!!!" It means hit. They are fully capable of and sometimes DO tell me that their classmate grabbed them, kicked them, pulled their hair or any other horrible thing that horrible little kids do. :D


I have not encountered any of these in my understanding of the 13 postures in Taiji.

I think Shooter put the reason why best why when he has said something to the effect of striking in Taijiquan being incidental to good tactical movement. . . . but it still occurs.

p.s. I looked back at one of my earlier posts and it was not very friendly but you came back unruffled by the rude bits. Kudos.

[SPJ]

I had a bad cold for 2 weeks.

I started my first week of work for this year.

Some good discussions.

Ban may also mean to move.

Lan means to intercept.

They both are carried out with circular moves or Jin (Chan Si) in Tai Ji.

And yes, striking or fa jin is incidental when the opportunity and timing occur (De Ji De Shi). For the most part, you and your opponent are maneuvering with steps in and out of positions and arms movements shadowing each other.

4 Oz thing is all about leverage.

How much you may leverage is in your positioning. It is a Jin from walking, thus the name (Zhou Jin) or walking Jin.

[SPJ]

There are 9 sections of the body and 5 bows.

They may all produce Jin to hit.

Qi is sinking in the Dan Tian. Use the will/intent (Yi) to guide the Qi. Use the Qi to mobilize Li or Jin.

The upper limb: end or root section (Gen Jie) is the shoulder, the mid section is the elbow, and the end section is the wrist.

Depends on the distance: the back of the hand or the wrist to hit, the forearm to Peng, the elbow to Zhou, the shoulder to Kao. etc.

Open and close: (Kai He).

How many ways I may hit you in Tai Ji?

:D

[SPJ]

Most of the moves in Tai Ji are to guide or lead.

Depends on the opponent's Jin, you follow and guide it into emptiness. (Yin Jin Luo Kong).

The opponent feels that his Jin is lost.

You guide it upward or laterally to your rear by Peng and Lu.

You guide it downward by Cai and Lu.

You guide it inward from outward by Cai.

You follow the opponent's pulling back by Ji and An.

So where do you want to go I follow.

:D

[SPJ]

Do I need to hit you on the way out?

Let me see--

----

There is a 9 section whip. It is a weapon made out of 9 sections of metal chain.

Which section of the body whip---

What is a Tai Ji punch?

:confused:

[SPJ]

I may talk about Tai Ji fightings all day and all nite long.

I was told to shut up in my college days.

:D

[SPJ]

There are 4 ways to fight in Tai Ji.

1. Neutralization of the opponent's Jin and release your own. (Hua Fa).

When you finish neutralization, you also finish Fa Jin.

2. Neutralization and hit (Hua Da).

3. Neutralization and Qin Na.

4. Neutralization and throw (Shuai).

[SPJ]

Why is it important to focus Qi on Dan Tian;

So that your Qi and Jin have an anchor or Zhong Cheng An Su.

So that you may not overwithdraw and over extend yourself. Wu Bu Gou Yu Bu Gi.

The Jin is rooted in the feet and mastered by the waist. You store your Jin and Qi in the waist and Dan Tian, or Shi Jin, you release them only when the opportunity and timing arrive or appropiate. De Gi De Shi.

When you practice Lao Jia Yi Lu, you have to focus on intent (Yi) and Qi, that is the only way to improve and progress.

When you do Qi Shi or start, people see you raise your arms to the shoulder level and lower them near waist or Dan Tian. They see the moves slowly.

Actually, you are elevating your Qi to Bai Hui and lower it to Hui Yin. You focus on Dan Tian and move your Qi along Ren Du Er Mai. These intent and Qi practice coornidate with your moves.

You may even practice the Qi mobilization and intent without even moving your limbs.

You are practicing how to sense your Qi and Jin flow smoothly to the limbs and back.

Dan Tian is the center. Everything is mastered by the waist.

You may neutralize the opponent Jin in all directions and in all amplitudes (magnitude).

You use a smaller force to deal with bigger ones.

You have a Tai Ji strategy and tactics.

You are practicing Tai Ji in your intent, Qi and moves.

Thus the name is Tai Ji Quan.

---

I shut up for now.

[unixfudotnet]

Originally posted by bamboo_ leaf
unixfudotnet,

please be sure to let us know when you start.

what is that supposed to mean?

i do it everyday.

i am trying to stay on topic. taijiquan has punches and punches are used.

we are all beginners, there is always someone better, yet how can anyone argue on another they do not know other than just reading.

one thing that is constant in cma, and others probably, is that the best way to know and understand them is to just do them, period.

like a sifu told me that a late master told him, the only way to get better and understand what you are doing is to just do it over and over.

debating about what is obvious from doing the forms and practicing your taijiquan seems silly to me. there would not be all this discussion if everyone did it everyday (at least once) and took it seriously.

yet something i know personally, it is easier to talk about cma than to stick to doing it everyday and not just for a couple minutes. if many people did, most of the threads in this forum would be a couple posts.

as for chen and yang styles, they are the same, they just start from different directions. yang has all the stuff you seen beginners do in chen, and chen has all the stuff you see beginners do in yang. many do not realize this (maybe from lack of good teachers *shrug*). the are all the same thing, their methods of reaching what taijiquan _is_ are different, yet after you get better after many of years, internally it is all the same. which is not obvious to beginners. taijiquan is all internal, the way your arms move in the air and stuff seems to take too much importance to many because they do not realize what taijiquan is... which is ok, but realize that there is more.

[SPJ]

Agreed.

There are 4 phases in the study of Tai Ji Quan.

1) Boxing or body structure. (Quan Jia Zi)

We have to study the posture by standing practices; how to move our hands and steps; how to maintain the waist, hip, elbow, knee, chest and back etc.

2) Familiarity (Zuo Su)

We have to practice so that the body structure is commited to the memory of our bodies and minds.

3) Understanding Jin (Dong Jin)

Study to master, how to sense and neutralize the opponent's Jin, in turn, mobilize and release your Jin.

4) Proficiency (Shen Ming)

Practice to be proficient.

In short; 2 parts, when you practice standing practices and drills, you learn to know yourself. (Zi Ji)

When you practice push hands and bag works etc, you learn to know the opponent or resistence. (Zi Bi)


:cool:

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Happykiwi
Please reveal to me where the punch or fist strike is described in the eight methods of power in Taiji?

"ward-off, roll-back, press, push, pluck, split, elbow, and shoulder."

If you are using a punch strike, is this in accordance with the Taiji principles? Why practise "push hands" and not "punching hands" with clenched fists?

You read a book. Good for you. You have no idea what you are really talking about.

[SPJ]

The answers are already there.

You may read as many books as you want.

Punches with all your body parts.

---

9 sections of the body.

--

Qi, Yi--

--

How to practice--

--

[SPJ]

If you are only doing vertical fist punch and nothing else, you miss the rest of the story or the 9 sections of body or--

[SPJ]

Sorry.

I think I posted too much too fast.

Excellent point. When you move, you move all of your body parts.

In considering Jin issueing, you still have the whole body Jin or complete Jin (Zhen Jin).

How your Jin would go is depending on the opponent's Jin.

Your practicing Qi and Yi will make your Jin precise, instantly fast and stronger.

When you Fa Jin or punch with fists or strikes with other body part, there is still a whole or complete Jin all over your body.

That is also called Nei Jin or Nei Gong.

You are right. Experiences are utmost important.

Words and descriptions may be difficult to elucidate.

Cheers.

:D

[hung-le]

Originally posted by unixfudotnet
like was said, a punch is a punch :) just we use exact body mechanics and internal energy, which hard styles use as well, just later on in their training where we get it from the get-go.

chi development also has a side effect of proper body mechanics. so really any punch or strike will have proper body mechanics that has chi power behind it, because it is the foundation in all we do :)

This thread should have stoped after this post!

[kung fu fighter]

Hi,
I was wondering how the chen tai chi exercises are performed that are used to develop fa jing. Can anyone discribe the intricate details involved and the concepts behind them?

Thanks
kung fu fighter

[scotty1]

Well, I got two sigs out of this thread, so thank EF and TCB.

If you want them yourself, or you're bothered about being quoted, let me know.

I have nothing further to add. :)

[crumble]

I read though this entire thread waiting for the punchline. Nope, nothing.

-c

p.s. no pun intended.

[Kaitain(UK)]

An exercise that I use - go through a punch movement and hold your position at the finish point where you would be delivering energy. Get a partner to lift a heavy bag back and let it swing into your structure - this replicates what should be happening when you deliver your strikes, your structure should be immovable.

I tend to use this on my own as well - I'll be doing some bag work, and then I might use An to push it away, then just stop the bag on it's return swing using my structure and root. It's good fun :)

When you get good at that, start issuing into the bag as it swings back - this builds the skill of delivering force to an incoming opponent without getting rocked out of position.

I recommend that you use some wrist strapping when you do this - if your alignment is even slightly out you can end up with some painful injuries.

I apply this with elbows, knees and kicks as well as shoulder and hip movements. It's a good exercise - just take it easy and dont swing the bag from too far back too early.

Also - dont let someone distract you when it's swinging back :)
*me hits bag, pushes it about 2 foot away and steps into a shoulder barge"
"Oi Paul!"
"What, Im train-"
*Bag hits my now static structure and sends me flying*
"Nice technique"

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


I was really interested in reading about people's direct experiences w/punches based on their personal practice, or at least their opinions in regards to my post: all I've read is some "correction" on translation (no disrespect, but who cares: I'll go read a Chinese dictionary if I think it's necessary) and then a quasi-cryptic regurgitation of a laundry list of general TCC principles, which, although obviously applicable to punching, don't really relate to the specific topic as it was initially set-up (I mean, again, if I want to hear all that stuff, I can pick up any number of TCC books); well, I hoped it would stimulate some additional discussion re: applications of the punches, but maybe everyone's played out on the whole thread... Well.. maybe i don't comprehend things the same way others do, but.. there is pretty good stuff in here.. aside from that, it has been said that doing is preferable to reading.. and i agree..

Applications, hmmmm.. "deflect downward and downward punch" (a rolling downward backfist).. the deflecting hand (left) intercepts an incoming opponent's right punch and deflects it downward, as the downward deflection passes the solar plexus it converts to cai (pluck), extending the opponents right arm and exposing the right side of the head/neck around the ear.. your right hand flips a rolling backfist inside, up, and over your left arm as your left plucks the opponents deflected right hand punch.. with power generated by twisting the waist and sinking into the impact you land a right-hand backfist just behind the exposed ear, knuckles striking the base of the skull and the rest of the hand impacts the ear/jaw.. i hope this more to topic as intended..

Be well..