ATTN: New Authentic Shaolin Kung Fu School

[wiseman299]

ATTN: New Authentic Shaolin Kung Fu School

Hello,
My name is Marcus and i'm a ambassordor for my Kung Fu school. We've just open and i'm promoting our school as well trying to pass on some knowledge and tradition.

Bio of the Grandmaster

Eighteen Degree Red/Black Sash
World Gold Medalist
Certified in Tibet fo China
Acupuncture & Acupressure Specialist

The school is located in Richmond, Virginia
He teaches and specailizes in the teaching of Kung fu (12 animal based Nothern style), Wing Chung, Tai Chi, Kick boxing and Yoga

We work only on appoinments.
If you need any further information or would like to set up an appointment you can reach me at Wiseman299@hotmail.com and once again my name is Marcus

Thank you for your time

[Bob8]

>Eighteen Degree Red/Black Sash

In what? From which lineage is his wing chun?

>World Gold Medalist

Which tournament?

>He teaches and specailizes in the teaching of Kung
>fu (12 animal based Nothern style), Wing Chung,
>Tai Chi, Kick boxing and Yoga

Busy dude...

BTW good luck with the school, I think.... :-P


Bob

[reneritchie]

And I would like to point out that I am still not teaching inauthentic non Shaolin out north of nowhere...

Carry on.

[KPM]

Does this "Grandmaster", "18thdegree Red sash", "World Gold Medalist" have a name? :-)

Keith

[planetwc]

It took only 3 years to get that 18th degree as well as learn multiple martial arts AND yoga? Sign me up!!!

Afghan emigre goes home (http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/2003/06/06/news/local/states/pennsylvania/counties/montgomery_county/6024384.htm?1c)

Posted on Fri, Jun. 06, 2003
During a two-month-long trip, a Phila. businessman will assess the situation at cleaned up fields for a U.S. nonprofit.

By Maria Panaritis

Philadelphia Inquirer Staff Writer

Qader Noorzad leaves for Afghanistan today. The 32-year-old expatriate will show off his newborn to in-laws. His wife will catch up with family. He will gauge the possibility of running for office next year in his newly democratic homeland.


But the martial arts instructor with studios in Berwyn and Philadelphia also will squeeze in a task that binds him to a cadre of Philadelphia-area strangers: He will visit six minefields cleared of explosives.


Noorzad will snap photos, interview locals and, much like a newspaper reporter, send dispatches to the United Nations Association's Adopt-A-Minefield fund-raising program.

Noorzad says he was 13 when he took up arms. By day he went to high school in Bamiyan; by night he was a U.S.-backed rebel, he said.

It was "a very harsh life," he said.

In 1989, with Afghan warlords turning on one another, a dispirited Noorzad went to Pakistan. The next three years, he studied Buddhism and the martial arts in Tibet, founding a martial arts academy in Peshawar.

In 1992, eager for a higher education, he immigrated to Philadelphia on a visa issued by the U.S. embassy in return for having fought the Soviets, he said.

Noorzad earned a bachelor's in environmental health and sciences from Hahnemann University Hospital and a master's in occupational health and science from the University of Delaware. He became a naturalized citizen in 1996.

In 1998 he returned to Afghanistan and wed. Eight months ago, his first child was born, a boy. This is Noorzad's first trip to Afghanistan since Taliban rule.

Noorzad, who is entrusting his Berwyn and Wissinoming martial arts academies to associates while he is gone for two months, said he may begin campaigning for a nomination for the 2004 regional elections in Afghanistan.

[Firehawk4]

Sounds like McKwoon .

[wiseman299]

planetwc


that's him

[wiseman299]

planetwc

he's been practicing for over 32 years

[CFT]

Originally posted by wiseman299
he's been practicing for over 32 years Practising what, martial arts? From the age of 2?

[wiseman299]

I think since he started training when he was six or seven, but I will ask today in class. His son is now 2, he knows how to kick, punch, flip. His third word was "Tao." My Master starts teaching students at the age of three so why do you think it's impossible for him to have begun that early? Also survival is a way of life for many, in other countries there's a constant threat so they have to learn to protect themselves a lot early then us in the USA.

[wiseman299]

Guys I'm not trying to start anything like some of you, I'm just trying to pass on the knowledge that has been bestowed upon me. I'm just trying to point you guys in the direction of a great teacher, that not only teaches your the philosophy behind everything he teaches but also the application that is greatly missing from numerous teachers that I have seen teach.

For the non believers that think he couldn't possibly reach that level, I'm sure your also the people that swore on life that the world was flat. Hope you guys get my point

[planetwc]

Your teacher probably does have fighting experience and background coming from Afghanistan and the environment that was present there.

What rings strange is the use of terms like:

World Gold Medalist
18th degree red belt

1. Since when would Afghanistan be a hotbed for Shaolin teachers, or Wing Chun for that matter?

2. During the period of Soviet occupation and then followed by the Taliban, where would there be formal or informal martial arts training?

Activities such as those would have been outlawed by both regimes.
Who would have been in place in Afghanistan of all places to teach such diverse mainstream arts to the general populace or to mujahadeen?
Training for insurgents would more involve AK47s, RPGs, and stinger missle use, not push hands, chi sao or shaolin forms.

What world class event was the gold medal achieved from?

Why an 18th degree? Most belt ranking systems derive from Japanese Judo and Karate and stop at a 10th degree level.

People like Joe Lewis, the greatest US Kickboxer doesn't have an 18th degree, nor does Helio Gracie or any of his sons (like Rickson Gracie) or relatives. The highest belt rank in Judo is a 10th degree and is normally held by very very old distinguished Judo players, not 32 year old men.

More likely of course, your teacher created his own ranking system within his own organization. As a style founder that is certainly his own right.

And often times the "history" portion is more "marketing" for those people unfamiliar with martial arts in general. It has often been like that. It just raises questions among those folks in the marital arts community with a passing familiarity with martial history and what sounds credible in terms of historical credentials.

That is why you are getting the questioning here. You've listed the credentials and they sound rather strange. It's good marketing to the unwashed masses--but expect to get called on it by folks with experience.

Again, the bottom line is, if your teacher can fight, can teach others to fight well, then more power to him. Lineage isn't going to save your b*tt in a fight, skill and experience will.

Good luck with your school and enjoy your studies and training.

[wiseman299]

he trained in tibet and was also i monk. I will post the answers to your question tommorrow. I haven't went to class due to an injury the other day practicing my weapon in the snow.

[reneritchie]

Dave,

I recently saw a flyer at a local store for a guy teaching Bujinkan Ninjutsu. It said he was an 8th degree, and his teacher in Ontario was 12th or 13th degree or something.

And hey, wasn't there some 21 year old dude in NY who claimed to have learned at some SEA Shaolin temple and mastered 300 styles or something? Maybe he had classmates...

[wiseman299]

300 styles that's pushing it maybe he got the chair and computer program from the Matrix. Can you even break it down to 300 styles? I think by that point it would be a variation of something else which shouldn't count as another.

[anerlich]

We work only on appoinments.

And I'm sure the phone's ringing off the hook.

FWIW, my instructor won "world kung fu championships" in HK in 1982/83. He's only a 7th Level master, not 18th, but that's as far as the grading system goes.

One of my sidais was a Gold Medallist in the World Masters Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Championships in Rio this year.

We don't work on appointments, but maybe we've not reached the same exalted level yet.

BTW, what's this "Wing Chung" stuff?

I'm sure this guy's done it tough and has skills, but the cult of personality type advertising tends to insult the intelligence.

Good luck.

[wiseman299]

To all the people who had question I'll answer them as I try to remember.

There's only one style of Wing Chung

Karate belt really only goes up to 8 the 9th and 10 was just implemented for lets say business.

In Kung Fu there's really no belts but you have to equate to another system for business reason.

He's in the 18th chamber out of 36 which for business means 18th degree actually really higher though
@ our blue belt we should be were a black belt in another system

He started training at 4

He has also trained for several years (sorry is i miss spell there names) but people you would/should know

Maurice Smith
Johnny Pere


He won a gold medal in 1987 in Singapore



Any other questions?

[Vash]

Yes,

is the Kool-Aid that good?

[Redd]

Eventually he will figure it out.

[KPM]

Originally posted by wiseman299

Any other questions?


Where does his "Wing Chung" come from? What is his lineage? Where did he train? This is after all, a Wing Chun forum. I don't think he learned it in Tibet.

Keith

[Ernie]

Originally posted by wiseman299
.

He's in the 18th chamber out of 36


I think I remember that one , is that were he has to run across the floating logs and not fall in the water so he can have his bowl of rice :p

[l@zylee]

I have to register the shaking of my head at what I just read at the beginning of this thread :(

I hope Wiseman299, gets wise to the lies :)

[Merryprankster]

Maurice Smith

You provide proof of this, and I won't call bull****. Otherwise, smells suspiciously of poo.

[Vajramusti]

MP- A question.

Maurice Smith in his match with Coleman was taken to the ground by Coleman and later Smith turned the tables with devastating MT type of knee kicks.

While on the ground Smith was successful in preventing Coleman's choke with a little hand move used as a wedge. Till then I had not seen any UFC types use that move.The move came very naturally to him and dint seem to be a mainstay NT or JJ move.

What is Smith's complete background including his early years?

PS. Merry Christmas to you Merryprankster and all folks on this forum.

[Merryprankster]

Joy,

Not sure what his total background is. I do know he trained extensively on ground defense and how to get back up.

Using your hand as a block on a choke is fairly common, and one of the first things taught in any submission-type training. Coleman is also not the world's greatest submission artist.

Wow, that UFC was a long time ago....

[Ultimatewingchun]

Was ignoring this thread until about ten minutes ago. Just read through it.

And it's hilarious.

And MP's quote of Maurice Smith about "smells of poo" made me fall off my chair !!!

Oh...man....There's nothing like Christmas/New Year's comedy!

Really puts a smile on my face.

[Nick Forrer]

Mo smith used to corner frank shamrock. I think Shamrock taught him sub wrestling and he taught Frank S Muay thai. Both benefited from the others help methinks.

[planetwc]

Spent a lot of time training with the Lion's Den, either Ken or Frank Shamrock to learn about "staying alive" if he was taken down and getting back up again to use his primary skills.

That is what helped him in his first NHB fight at the EFC against Conan Silveria. Mo was taken down, survived there, got back up and HAMMERED Conan with his Muay Thai skills.

Crosstraining in grappling saves the day yet again. Gave Mo the ability to survive in that range and get back to his primary skillset and use them at opportune time.

[t_niehoff]

planetwc wrote:

Crosstraining in grappling saves the day yet again. Gave Mo the ability to survive in that range and get back to his primary skillset and use them at opportune time.

**A few observations -- first, every single person who actually fights/trains with trained MMAists has found it necessary to train in ground defense regardless of their style; second, every single person who actually fights/trains with MMAists has found it necessary to train in BJJ regardless of their style (even champoin wrestlers train BJJ to be able to deal with it); third, one doesn't need to become a highly skilled groundfighter to adequately deal with a groundfighter just as one doesn't need to become a highly skilled boxer to adequately deal with a boxer in stand-up (lots of BJJ practitioners train boxing, not to become good boxers but to learn how to deal with the boxer -- avoid their punches and get the shoot).

[GeneChing]

...we've been discussing this spam ad over on this Shaolin forum thread (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=34427&perpage=15&pagenumber=1) - check it out. It's poo-free so far. :D

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Every single person who actually fights/trains with MMAists has found it necessary to train in BJJ regardless of their style (even champion wrestlers train BJJ to be able to deal with it)" (Terence)

Not true.

The Catch wrestlers that I know (including myself) spend some time working against BJJ moves - but they don't train "IN" BJJ.

[t_niehoff]

If these guys fight with good MMAists -- folks that fight other skilled fighters -- then they'll train some BJJ, because they'll need to. Training against "some BJJ moves" won't enable one to deal with a good BJJ practitioners (like training against some WCK moves won't enable a person to deal with a good WCK person). Every top MMAist/NHB fighter has trained with some good BJJ practitioners; there is a reason for it. This isn't meant to take anything away from "Catch" or Sambo or wrestling or or judo or whatever; they're all good.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Okay...let me be more specific, Terence.

I have worked (and still do upon occasion) against some people trained in BJJ...who have tried to use virtually ALL their moves against what I was doing during the training sessions. (Whether it be against the Wing Chun striking...or the Catch wrestling...or against both simultaneously).

But when I said "some time working against BJJ moves"...I meant that, in addition to what I just said above, I also occasionally just isolate certain BJJ moves to work against (ie.- Catch vs. the BJJ guard).

[l@zylee]

I wish people wouldn't talk about MMA and UFC its all bollocks! :o

bollocks I tell ya!

[t_niehoff]

Victor,

I don't know what "some people trained in BJJ" means -- how skilled are they? While it's great that you train against some "BJJ postitions", IMHE a much more important issue is the level of skill of the person working that "position"; it's easy to pass a white belt's guard or remain safe while in it but with a purple belt it's an entirely different matter.

Moreover, there are some aspects of groundfighting that BJJ seems to have more full addressed. If you look at evidence -- the performance of persons trained in these various groundfighting methods in various grappling events (Abu Dhabi) or NHB fights -- as opposed to theory (what we believe they should provide), you'll see that no one reached the higher levels on Catch alone. Again, that's not to say Catch is bad or inferior, just that groundfighting has continued to evolve (even BJJ is different than it was 20 years ago).

[Nick Forrer]

To me the defining characteristics of BJJ qua BJJ (at least in a sportive context) are the use of the GI and a lack of Leg and spine locks. Once you take away the GI and allow these locks it becomes IMO 'submission wrestling' which from what I have seen is pretty much indistinguishable from catch, certainly in terms of technique although maybe not in strategy. The rebirth of catch is still in its infancy which may explain the lack of competitive success. Also Tony C is I think on record as saying the reason he doesnt compete himself is because of a back injury and also his age. Cynics might say its also because he wouldnt want catch to suffer a public loss. OTOH there is Sakuraba (whose lineage is from Karl Gotch) who has beaten a number of Gracies.

A hundred years ago there were lots of matches between catch and jiu jitsu/judo.

Check out this document esp. chapter 12:

farmer burns manuscript (http://www.sandowplus.co.uk/Competition/Burns/lessons/lesson01.htm)

[reneritchie]

Sak is not a catch-wrestler. He's a pro-wrestler, and if catch were really the secret of his success, the rest of Takada Dojo would be a lot more successful (which they are profoundly not).

Don't forget Japanese children train Judo pretty much from youth, and while Sak has shown excellent freestyle wrestling (some of the best shoots in MMA), his submission wins have come pretty much from very basic Judo like Ude Garami (kimura) and Juji Gatame (straight armbar).

There is really only 1 (incredibly important) advantage to bjj (and american sub grappling which picked it up from bjj) to catch, and it's the same thing Judo had over jujijitsu, and WCK had over previous local systems -- teaching and training methodology.

It's been demostrated that, using the teaching and training methods, BJJ can produce literally hundreds of successful sport (be it grappling or MMA) fighters. Catch has not demonstrated that. BJJ also has generation experience in producing these types of people in great numbers, and seems to be smart enough to grow and adapt (adding Sambo leglocks, adding freestyle wrestling shoots and defenses, etc. nevermind boxing and MT) which many other arts will not do.

On a side note, looks like injury will be preventing Sak from completing his suicide via Vanderlais. That is a good thing :)

Victor - Have you ever trained with Renzo, Almeida, or Serra? I had a chance to train with Serra a couple years ago, he was awesome.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Sakuraba comes from Japanese pro wrestling (which is very heavily influenced by Catch)...and he's also been influenced by shootfighting...which is a mix of catch/judo/ju-jitsu and some striking systems.

But the Catch influence on him is clearly evident when you watch his grappling game - much more so than the BJJ influence...and Sak HAS NEVER BEEN SUBMITTED by a BJJ fighter...his losses have come by way of strikes...as well as the fact that he has beaten 4 different Gracies. (At least 2 out of the four were by submission - the double wristlock...which is done differently in some subtle but important ways than the BJJ "kimura" - and from more positions than what are used in BJJ.)

And yes - the strategy, principles, and techniques used in Catch are different in a number of ways than BJJ. As for the present and future of Catch in NHB events - it's in the works. Just stay tuned.

(Ex-heavyweight UFC champion Josh Barnett has already started working with Catch - both from training with some Japanese pro wrestlers and from studying Tony Cecchine's Lost Art Of Hooking tapes...though Josh still has a ways to go).

He spent some time communicating with Tony and some others on Tony's private website forum about 4 months ago. (I was witness to it - and actually communicated a bit with Josh myself).

Also...I have nothing on tape to back this up - but as a student of Catch Wrestling's Tony Cecchine I have heard first hand from one of his best (and oldest) students that more than one BJJ blackbelt has either come to Tony's school in Chicago or gone to one of his seminars and have been submitted by Tony. (Tony's never been submitted by any BJJ fighter).


Now as for this.......

"Moreover, there are some aspects of groundfighting that BJJ seems to have more full addressed. If you look at evidence -- the performance of persons..." (Terence)

I presume you meant to say..."more fully addressed than CATCH."

NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH.

Without getting into all the nitty-gritty details about what moves, strategies, techniques, principles, and submissions (hooks) that Catch uses - and how they differ from BJJ - much of which was covered on the thread I'm about to mention....let me just say this:

You really need to go back to the archives and read the "Why Catch Wrestling is NOT inferior" thread. (I just decided a moment ago to put in the word..."NOT"...as that is clearly what the thread eventually came to mean).

But for now...here is one of the last posts I made on that thread...from the website of a jiu jitsu blackbelt, Russ St. Hilaire (and there are a number of both jiu-jitsu and catch websites that give out the same and other related material). St Hilaire wrote the article, which can be found at:

www.kobukaijujitsu.com/sensei6.html

WHAT FOLLOWS IS AN EXCERPT FROM THE ARTICLE - BUT PAY STRICT ATTENTION TO WHAT THE LAST PARAGRAPH SAYS ABOUT THE HISTORY AND RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN CATCH AND BJJ:

After having several of his top students become newaza experts, Kano thought it a good idea to use this type of Judo in the school system. As the matches ended in submission instead of serious injury, it would be seen more in a sportive way. So in 1914 he organized the All Japan High School championships at Kyoto Imperial University. He called this sportive style Kosen. By 1925 so much emphasis was on newaza - because of its success in contest that Kano had to make some new Judo rules limiting the amount of time the Judoka could stay on the ground. This "Kosen Rule" continued into the 1940's, stating Shiai had to be 70% standing and 30% ground fighting

This led to an early split in the Kodokan Judo movement. Many of those Judoka whom Kano had set to master newaza, had spent time inventing new series of movements, escapes, and submissions. They and their students were now dominating even the Kodokan contests. There was so much negativity with this, that Kano sent many of them abroad to teach Judo elsewhere. He was very aware that they would not be easily defeated no matter where they went, and he also smartly removed the challenge they presented in Japan'. Some of the known Kosen Judoka were Yama****a, Hirata, Tomita, Yokoyama and Maeda.
The ancient Jujutsu styles also had ground fighting, but not so much in the sense of wrestling or newaza as it is today. Ryu such as Takenouchi-Ryu and Yoshin-Ryu had disarming techniques (kansetsu) which focused on breaking the bones in the arm so that the soldier could no longer wield a sword or spear. There were also techniques resembling modern Hadake Jime (naked choke) which attacked the Kobuto (helmet) in order to break the neck.

The kenjutsu (sword) schools often practiced positions like "open guard" and do shime (guard) and mijne gatame (chest lock) when the fight went to the ground, although they were more focused on how not to get stabbed with a katana (sword) or tanto (knife). After the dissolution of the Samurai class in the 1800's, schools began to focus more on empty hand arts - and two schools in particular had a large body of newaza techniques - namely Fusen-Ryu and Jikishin-Ryu.

Jikishin-Ryu Jujutsu was founded by Terada Kanemon Masashige in the mid 1600's. Masashige was born in 1616, and he studied Teishin-Ryu with his father and grandfather who were masters. There were already ground techniques in this art. Later he studied Kito-Ryu, which focuses on throwing from Ibaraki Sensai, and Ryoi Shinto-Ryu with Fukuno Masakatsu. Masashige and following generations developed many techniques that resemble sequences from modern Judo - grapple, throw, ground position, and submission. Jikishin-Ryu actually called its art Judo 168 years before Kano used the term for his art.

Kosen Judo has only continued in a few places. One example is Hirata Kanae's dojo is in Japan. He died in 1998, but the dojo still continues. Then there is Brazil, which started with Maeda. Mitsuyo Maeda who began training in Judo in 1897, and became one of the troublesome Kosen Judoka who was sent abroad with Tsunejiro Tomita. Traveling in the US, Maeda outshone his senior Tomita, defeating wrestlers and fighters that had beaten Tomita. Tomita and Maeda went their separate ways - with Maeda going onto the early "fighting circuit" for money. He even travelled to Europe where he lost the only two matches of his life against a Catch Wrestler. He spent extra time with the wrestler learning some of those techniques. Finally in 1915 Maeda settled in Brazil where he taught Carlos Gracie, the son of a local politician. Carlos Gracie and his brothers adopted the Kosen Judo techniques and developed them further during the 20th century into what came to be known as Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.

[Merryprankster]

And yes - the strategy, principles, and techniques used in Catch are different in a number of ways than BJJ.


Having cross trained in BJJ, Judo, Wrestling and Sambo, I can safely say that this is at the very least an overstatement and at the very worst, not true.

The strategy is somewhat different, this I grant - largely because of the way rules influence development.

However, the principles and techniques (when comparing oranges to oranges) are basically the same. The principles of grappling don't change from art to art or place to place.

Technique-wise, there is a preference for certain things in each style, largely from rule based origins. For example, straight sambo players are notorious for getting caught in collar chokes in non-sambo gi tournaments, because they are illegal in sportive Sambo. BJJers often have poor takedown skills. Judoka will attempt throws with wild abandon that expose their back or leave them vulnerable upon landing. Wrestlers leave limbs laying around to get snatched up. Generalities, mind you, generalities.

But the principles are the same. And the techniques are the same because they flow from those principles. There are variations, of course - the russians like to do Ura Nage on one leg, for instance, but an armbar is an armbar is an armbar. A sprawl is a sprawl is a sprawl - just because one guy uses underhooks and the other a crossface, doesn't make it a "different" technique.

Basically, there are techniques that apply principles correctly, regardless of origin, and there is everything else. Of course, if you want to compare apples and oranges - like arguing that straight-up wrestlers don't know submissions, so the techniques aren't the same, then you can do that. But that's not very useful or good analysis to my mind, since it's just an outgrowth of rule-based preferences.

Do these different players feel different on the mat? You bet - because of the rules they train under. Judoka come at you and never stop attacking (the good ones) because stalling is strictly enforced. A BJJer may stall you out. Wrestlers hurt and are very physical (a "head tap" in wrestling is a polite euphamism for "Knocked upside the head with a palm). Sambo goes for submissions from all kinds of crazy spots in a frantic, albeit controlled way because position isn't scored. Pace and roughness change without a doubt...but the principles and techniques? Nah.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Nick Forrer
Once you take away the GI and allow these locks it becomes IMO 'submission wrestling' which from what I have seen is pretty much indistinguishable from catch, certainly in terms of technique although maybe not in strategy. Modern submission wrestling is different than Catch. The former utilizes a lot of guard work. The latter frowns upon using the guard.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"And yes - the strategy, principles, and techniques used in Catch are different in a number of ways than BJJ. " (UWC)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Having cross trained in BJJ, Judo, Wrestling and Sambo, I can safely say that this is at the very least an overstatement and at the very worst, not true.

The strategy is somewhat different, this I grant - largely because of the way rules influence development..." (MP)

.................................................. ....................................

It's not about rules in "hooking"....which is what true historical Catch wrestling is about.

There are no rules - and it's not about pinfalls...it's about submissions (hooks) - and the use of rips at any given moment (ie.- eye gouges, fish hooks, elbows, knuckle attacks on the temple and numerous other types of hand, elbow, and finger attacks on parts of the face, head, and body while holding a man down as a setup for submissions, as well as knee strikes (even kicks at certain times)...

And one of the most basic Catch PRINCIPLES is that it's NOT about gaining one of a few SPECIFIC positions first - before going for a submission - it's about CONTROLLING the opponent's body - from WHATEVER position - and then going for a submission. (Catch Principle: use your whole body as a weapon - use his whole body as a target).

So even though being on top is considered dominant in Catch wrestling - CONTROL of the opponent's body takes precedence over attaining any specific "position"...a big philosophical difference in basic Principle than what is espoused in BJJ)...

So the frequently used guard position in BJJ is frowned upon not only because certain "types" of positions in Catch ARE considered - like I said - dominant (ie. - being on TOP)...but even more importantly - from the Catch point of view - not enough CONTROL over the opponent can be exercised from the guard.

So in Catch the man "caught" in someone's guard is therefore considered to be in the superior CONTROLLING position...and when Catch uses the guard (the front body scissors) - if an immediate submission is not there for the taking (ie- the double wristlock) - then the idea is to escape from the bottom as quickly as you can - which utilizes certain techniques not used in BJJ as an escape from the guard, for example...a hip heist with a whi//er (zz)...

And the use of the lowered hips when holding a man down is also a different principle than what is done in BJJ - thereby always riding very heavy by making the opponent carry more of your weight...a much more frequent use of the head and arm position than what is used in BJJ...and there are a number of different strategies and techniques in terms of takedowns, (ie. - the front headlock takedown...the leg dive takedown - and some others).

Another strategic difference is the use of standing double wristlocks (known as the kimura in BJJ) into takedowns and throws (sometimes even accompanied by a kick)..and the willingness to go for many different kinds of hooks (submissions) - and to do so from many other positions than what would be used in BJJ...certain hip and spine locks, as well as neck cranks and facelocks that aren't used in BJJ...

and also - there are some very subtle but real differences in HOW Catch goes about certain submissions that are also used in BJJ (the double wrist lock...the top wristlock (known as the keylock in BJJ)...the figure four chokes and neck cranks (that are used instead of the guillotine choke)...certain different wrist pinches and twists that are used in conjunction with some armlocks (the same principle applies to a number of Catch leg and ankle locks as well (including toeholds) - to be used with various joint, ankle and toe manipulations not used in BJJ...

as well as certain multiple simultaneous submissions (ie. stepover toehold with a cross face)...numerous uses of the nelson series of holds (ie. - the full nelson)...a multitude of moves that are used to break out of the guard and into submissions - as well as a number of ways to simply pass the guard that are not utilized in BJJ, etc.

[Merryprankster]

Victor,

Nothing you've written is very convincing. I could address it point by point, but, no pun intended, there's no point since I know where you stand on the issue.

My only purpose is to show that catch is not special and unique. A slightly different approach using the same principles to guide a person to a solution set to the grappling "problem."

Most of the stuff you have written are generalities. I could extract Catch, and insert BJJ/Judo/Sambo and come up with an equally correct statement. This points to universality vice specificity.

As far as rule based preferences, here's an example:


So in Catch the man "caught" in someone's guard is therefore considered to be in the superior CONTROLLING position...

That is a Catch rule based preference. There is a "rule" in catch, perhaps not formalized, but extant naetheless, that the man on the bottom is in an inferior position. The guard is thus an inferior position and to be used only in extremis.


CONTROL of the opponent's body takes precedence over attaining any specific "position".

Control is the ultimate goal of any grappling style. Hardly unique. I must have control over my opponent throughout the entire period of movement. I didn't magically pass guard and wind up in a hold-down. I got there by having control throughout. "Positions" are used as short hand for certain types of control because they are common and effective. It is an especially useful way to teach beginners. As you develop, it is all a continuum...if you watch good matches, the submissions never happen "in the position." They happen in the transition between "positions," because the submitter has control over the submitee. There is no need (or desire because of pace and response from the opponent) to "settle out" into a position by necessity.

Further, Catch clearly has its own notions of positional hierarchy - or they would make no distinction between top and bottom. Or is the fellow in the front headlock just as well off as the one applying it?

More extensive use of certain techniques certainly changes the flavor, but not the principles - or the basic strategy of winning through controlling the opponent.

As far as the specific locks, when you take off the gi and stop playing by BJJ rules all kinds of interesting stuff comes out of the woodwork. But are these somehow fundamentally different? The answer has to be no. All are based on control of the opponent and isolation of the body part to be attacked.

The only real difference is going to be how good you are relative to the opponent, regardless of which style you happen to train.

For the record, just because it particularly irks me, this statement:


And the use of the lowered hips when holding a man down is also a different principle than what is done in BJJ - thereby always riding very heavy by making the opponent carry more of your weight

Is just flat out wrong. Lowered hips is the only way to effectively apply pressure from the top and it is always better than available alternatives. It is absolutely not a "different principle." If there is anything that is common across grappling arts with a ground component it is this.

I mentioned it before after I saw the tape you sent, and I'll say it again - Leo Dalla, a 3rd Degree BJJ black belt, uses lowered hips to pass guard. It's quite frustrating - but again, not unique or a key difference.

The only key differences within a grappling context are:

Regarding the guard as inherently inferior (vice NEUTRAL)
Willingness to attack submissions from spots BJJers might not
Greater emphasis on takedown skills.

And that's not much. We're all doing the same things, just with different degrees of emphasis.

Anyway, there's no point in having this argument. I'm not attacking catch. I'm just trying to solidify that it's not different in any fundamental way. As long as you've got a good (great) instructor in any art like this and are willing to apply yourself diligently, you're all set.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Anyway, there's no point in having this argument."

I agree. We've had too many interesting and positive communications in the past to get into a pi**ing match now about about Catch vs. BJJ.

[Merryprankster]

Well I didn't exactly feel we were in a ****ing contest. I was more stating that the differences you believe to exist, I don't believe do. At least, certainly not in the magnitude or meaningful way you perceive they do. However, I also know that you genuinely believe them to exist, so my perceptions on the issue won't change your mind, nor yours, mine.

To me, style is a shorthand word that connotes particular emphases and training preferences....it has little to do, IMO with principles and techniques.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"To me, style is a shorthand word that connotes particular emphases and training preferences....it has little to do, IMO with principles and techniques." (MP)

Let's look at wing chun and at boxing, for example.

Both are standup striking systems...but certain differences in TECHNIQUE do exist, ie. - boxing doesn't use a pak da or a lop da technique (simultaneous slap block and punch using two hands at the same time...and simultaneous grab and pull while punching with the other hand).

While wing chun doesn't use the bob and weave type of footwork and body motion - by way of a few examples.

By way of PRINCIPLES...while certain boxers talk of a centerline - it's different than the how the concept is used in wing chun. The same with round strikes...it's part of wing chun principles that straight line striking is almost always used...whereas boxing principles call for hooks quite frequently.

Now disregarding some crosstraining that boxers and wing chun fighters might perhaps do upon occasion - and borrow from each other...the two systems DO HAVE differences both in principles and techniques. (And differences in strategies of attack and defense as well).

I believe the same kinds of differences exist between Catch Wrestling and BJJ...(while recognizing that there is some overlap - the same way there's overlap between boxing and wing chun, ie. - both systems try to create/find openings so as to be able to punch their opponent's in the face).

You don't believe that the differences are significant - and I do.

That's all.