Prepping for tradtional forms comp.

[omarthefish]

The discussion on the other thread where Knifefighters trashing forms again incidentally reminded me that I have been meaning to start this topic.

Any suggestions, ideas, bits of advice on prepping for a traditional forms competition?

I've never really paid attention to that sort of thing before but lately I've started doing public performances and next week I will be entered in a formal competition. But the goal is really not so much to win as to make my Sifu look good in front of his peers. ie. we want to win but more imprtant than that is that all the old timers in attendence nod their heads in approval . . .

I've heard bad things about these events. Who knows, maybe there really ARE competitions in China where they give credit to traditional forms values.

Anyways...I could use some thoughts on how to keep my training fresh. I am used to somewhat different goals in my forms training. It's an interesting experience.

[lkfmdc]

Forms competitions are in my opinion the biggest waste of time...

1. Who are the judges? How can they judge YOUR style? We remember our students getting judged by all Hung Ga judes. They said our footwork was wrong! Our footwork isn't wrong, it is just darn different than Hung Ga!

That's a mild case of bad judging

2. Little guys are gonna move quicker than big guys. When I took 4th at NACMAF event, in biggest division in country, southern long hand, the three guys who were 1, 2 and 3 were all like 140's, almost 50 lbs lighter than I was then... of course, in a REAL FIGHT, who would have the advantage?

3. I've seen guys get judged badly because their lineage does the set different than the judges' lineage, not even a Lama person doing a set a Hung ga guy can't understand, but a Hung ga judge giving a bad score because in HIS tradition the stance is THIS way...

[yu shan]

know your stuff, make your Shifu proud, hopefully for you the old timers will nod their heads w/approval, screw winning. I`d much rather impress the elders present.

[norther practitioner]

That aside, I usually will do a form a few different ways.

1.) Flow walk through-
Go through the form ~1/2 speed working on flow and lines.

2.) Stance walk through-
Go through the form ~1/2 speed working on stances and power
(it's sort of like when you first are learning forms, and do the MOVE full power into a full stance, but sort of hold it an extra second), I also break down sequences like this.

3.) Full all out form-
Just do the form all out so to speak, break it down into sections then the whole thing.

Thats how I do it.

[norther practitioner]

Look at how contemporary wushu peeps do it too. Thats what they DO.. I'm sure that they have a good way to put things all together for talou.

[TAO YIN]

Lkfmdc typed the brutally honest; however, a "good" judge will notice a good kuen, regardless of his "ways." Now remember I said, a good judge. Needles in haystacks.

As far as advice, do your form blindfolded, with ankle weights, iron rings, and a weight vest, with full relaxed power and speed and all of that. See how your balance is. Then do it one hudred more times as above. After that take off the blindfold, the ankle weights, the iron rings, and the weight vest and do your form again. You will notice a difference or three.

[bamboo_ leaf]

(Any suggestions, ideas, bits of advice on prepping for a traditional forms competition?)

I participated in some many yrs back.
I participated but I didn¡¯t compete and yet in some I took first in all I placed. My advice would be don¡¯t compete, just show or demo your set to who ever is watching as you would a freind and really enjoy it. weather you win or lose dosnt mean anything
Have fun :cool:

[Ai Lek Ou Seun]

Here are some keys to doing well:

-Where a bright shiny unusual looking uniform

-Make a lot of noise and grimace like you are going to the bathroom when you stick your poses

-Kip ups, cartwheels and flips can only get you bonus points

-Be buff: The stronger you look the more points

-Be small: As lkmdfc has pointed out big guys rarely win

-Have a nifty haircut and gel up your hair for style points

-When you approach the judges behave as though you are in the military and they are your superior officer

-If you are doing a weapon go for the lightest, fastest weapon possible. (The swords that klang as you strike seem to be favorites.)

-When you finish the form be sure you are out of breath but wear a subdued grin like this was the best form you ever did in your life.

BTW, I'm not joking about any of this. "Traditional" forms competition is kind of a joke, its one step up from wushu...and quickly becoming wushu.

If I held a tournament, I'd require sparring to enter. The forms would be more of a exhibition than a competition.

But good luck to you.

;)

[Shooter]

Omar. you accent things really well and your stepping is precise. Your teacher must be pleased with the fact that you can move through that form with so much speed and precision.

If the judges don't see the power you carry from comencement to closure, they're blind. You're ready for that sh!t.

What the leaf said.

[GLW]

First off…READ, UNDERSTAND, and KNOW the RULES.

This includes knowing what divisions there are, what styles go into what divisions, what are the criteria for judging, what are deductions, time limits, ring limits, etc…

While you may not agree with all of the rules in a competition, but they are the rules. When you get to the ring to compete, it is too late to tell the judges that a rule sucks. If everyone were to do that, the competition would never happen.

So, if you enter, be prepared to follow the rules. If the rules are NOT being followed, KNOW how to go about complaints.

Now, when you get there, it is OK to walk through your routine. It is also OK to do some parts with speed and power before you compete. However, NEVER do your entire routine full bore in the open EXCEPT for when you are on the carpet. Judges are human. Some ARE capable of viewing your performance as a fresh thing. Others will see what you are practicing. They will look at it and then remember and look for errors more closely when you compete. Make it an even playing field so that they only see you do it once (and hopefully that one time is your best).

If you need to practice full out, do it away from eyes…it is better to be an enigma.

When you are called, KNOW how to greet in. Some events require you to greet all judges. Others require only to greet the head judge and may have deductions for greeting incorrectly. Don’t do dumb things that cost you points for no reason.

When you walk out on the carpet, KNOW where you are going and where you need to be to fit your form into the area. It is a bad impression if you walk out and then have to move around – it is as if you are not confident and don’t know what you are about.

When you walk out, do so with good posture and pride….that is different from arrogance. Let the judges know from the first that you KNOW what you are doing.

You are still being looked at until you are out of view. So, when you finish your form, if you are to stand for score, do so with good posture and confidence. If you are to leave the carpet, do so with good posture and confidence. Bow appropriately at the end as well.

Even if you have gotten your score, as long as you are in view of the judges, act like you are being scored. You may very well have to be in front of them again (for a weapon set or something) very soon. Give them NO reason to remember anything but good about you.

As a competitor, you WILL see bad performances. Do NOT make fun of them at the event. It is simply bad manners. You will also probably see questionable judging or questionable behavior from a judge or two. There are proper ways to deal with this. How you do these things reflect as much on your character and your teacher as how you perform.

Above all, it is a learning experience. Do your best but don’t forget to have a bit of fun as well.

[SPJ]

There are many forms.

In a modern Wushu competition, there are also composite forms and compulsatory forms.

They judge the stances, the hand moves, the eyes, the spirits (Shen). Do not know the details.

But Shou Yen Shen Fa Bu. Hands, eyes, body structure, spirits, and steps.

Your weight shifting and balance. When you have to be fast, you are fast. When you have to be slow, you are slow. The tempo or pace or rythm. The smoothness or flow of everything. The transition. The high and the low. Your left, right, front, rear, on and on.

There are detailed rules for each move and posture (Shi).

Whatever, they judge gym, figure skating, etc.

There are requirements for the perfect score.

Best of luck.

[omarthefish]

hmm....

Kind of a grab bag of many of the standard responses I was expecting. . .I'm actually kind of hoping Sifu Able will show up. He generally bugs the **** out of me but I got to admit he is one of those rare traditional type guys who values and emphasise sparring but has excelled in the past at this sort of thing.

I had originally typed out responses to everyone individually but I hate it when other peoples posts are that so long so I'l just say thanks all for the moment and try to sum up my thoughts better.

[omarthefish]

Shooter and Bamboo Leaf:

Thank for your more thoughtfull responses. You guys have a better idea of where I'm coming from than the rest.

SPG and GLW:

Thank you for your very practical points. Many I thought of but not all and they are still good to be reminded of.

The "brutally" honest response from Lkfmdc was IMO just plain "honest" not "brutal" at all. It's pretty much my own exact opinion on this sort of thing yet here I am...for some reasons that I never would have dreamed of in the past.....entering in a forms comp. Why?

-This is a formal introduction of 'me' to 'eveyone else' in the Xi'an MA community. These things are one of the only places you are ever likely to see so many of the experts in Xi'an all assembled in one place. It is like a coming out party of sorts. The demos I have already done and the competition I will do declare me publically and indisputable to all: "An Official 'Tu Di' of Mr. Li Sui Yin....blah blah blah...." After yesderdays demo I had lunch with a TON of guys with 30-50 years experience. I met with coach who had trained national Sanda Champions. The national forms champions' teacher sat to my left. I met with about a half dozen of my own "uncles" who I had never met before....all guys in their 60's or older.

-Someone mentioned how fighting should be a pre-requisite for forms. Well many traditionalists feel it in reverse..my teacher included...forms are a pre-req for fighting. If I want to compete in a Sanda ring, I will have to prove myself doing forms first. Otherwise, how can I claim to "represent" my teacher or his style?

-I have made it clear that I intend to open a school and teach in the future. My teacher feels that one of the steps to doing that is getting recognition for your form. For instance....even if I don't win, I will very likely appear in the paper. (especially when you consider the novelty aspect)

The only thing is...hardly any of you actually had any thoughts on TRAINING. My usage of forms training in the past has never really been performance oriented.

[stimulant]

Traditional forms competitions are not always wastes of time....but as previsoulsy said....the judging really stinks. I've seen 'Traditional' competitions where the guy keeps throwing and catching his spear wins....

for advice......know the small details about where to look on the techniques, It can make all the difference....but most importantly...try and capture the flavour and spirit of the style.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Ai Lek Ou Seun
BTW, I'm not joking about any of this. "Traditional" forms competition is kind of a joke, its one step up from wushu...and quickly becoming wushu.;) You've never been to Taiji Legacy. They weigh the weapons. They disqualify you for doing non-traditional moves. They don't give you extra points for yelling.

Jimmy Wong runs a well-judged tournament.

[GLW]

Training...

OK....

Be aware that a lot of competitions are basically a "Hurry up and wait..." You need to work at being able to warm up and go in 5 minutes...so, you work on warming up and getting loose...and staying loose.

Next, train for distractions. You need to practice where there ARE jerks and get to where you do not notice them. Have classmates blast music or make noises. Have them walk across your area while you are doing a form. That type of thing. While the head judge is supposed to make sure the ring does not get overrun, there ARE children (and some of them can be in their 40's) that are oblivious to the world and WILL walk across the ring while a weapon form is being done.

Stamina...Do your routines back to back...barehand 3 times in a row and then run around the room and do your weapon set. Then do the same thing going back to barehand. This is not at all uncommon. You could be in one ring doing one form and then find out you are on deck clear across the competition area...and have only 2 or 3 minutes to catch your breath.

Drill sections but for the last week, do only the entire form. If you are going to have problems, it will be in connecting things, stamina, or forgetfulness due to nerves. So, you train the entire form for connections, stamina, and the ability to go by body memory...removing the nerves and memory as much as possible (autopilot as it were).

Work with HEAVIER weapons than you perform with. If you are using a Lungchuan weapon, for example, they are heavier than, say a wushu type...., so you bump it up to a combat steel weapon or add weights. You want to do this until the last few days... Then alternate between that and the weapon you perform with. By then, your competition weapon will feel light and all you need to do is get comfortable with its balance.

NEVER go to compete and use a weapon that you have not trained with. It will mess you up and could get you disqualified. I had a competitor one time do this with a spear. He WOULD have won the division. However, he borrowed the spear from a classmate because he left his at the hotel. Toward the end of the set, he did a tapping move with the spear tip on the floor...a normal move contained in many traditional sets....and the spear head dropped off. That was enough of a deduction to cost him 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place.

Train in your performance uniform. Sometimes you find out the hard way that things catch or the sleeves are too flowing, whatever.

Make sure your uniform is clean and pressed. It is not too attractive to have a guy come out looking like he slept in a dirty uniform.

[bamboo_ leaf]

(The only thing is...hardly any of you actually had any thoughts on TRAINING. My usage of forms training in the past has never really been performance oriented)

forms are not supposed to be for performance, they indicate a certain understanding of body movement carrying the flavor of the style and teachers training. The judges will or should know. Getting out in front of people is enough.

(For instance....even if I don't win, I will very likely appear in the paper. (especially when you consider the novelty aspect)

A small story this happened in tainjin at a taiji comp.

It was yang style 24step; they had 4 people performing at the same time while a panel of judges 7 I think watching and judging. Any way one guy obviously forgot his movements and was kind of watching the others copying their movements. The audience picked up on this and started laughing which made it worse.

The others finished first, when he finished every one clapped for him just making it through it.

(If I want to compete in a Sanda ring, I will have to prove myself doing forms first. Otherwise, how can I claim to "represent" my teacher or his style?) not to sidetrack your post but I feel this often over looked, by many favoring a win at all cost attitude.

At some point for those teaching, I think you have to find some way of introducing your self, some are a little more public and formal then others. In anycase its not really about the wining, it is very much about your character, looks like you made some good impressions. Which only reading your posting is not surprising. You seem like a sincere and dedicated practitioner who will make some lucky people a good teacher. good luck in this endever ;)

[SPJ]

It is always important to be social.

Have lots of pictures taken with friends and as many teachers as you can.

These are important. You may treasure them later.

Guang Xi or relationships.

Know who is who and why.

You would know where to place yourself in your style or school.

Watch other performing as well.

How and why they are good or bad. What is the move and app or interpretation by other student or teacher?

Take notes of people and form execution. Exchange ideas. etc.

In short, get to know the people. Make friends with them. the more you do, the more friends you have and the more support you will gain in your future and career.



:cool:

[omarthefish]

GLW:

Thank you for more practical suggestions. You haven't really corresponded with me before so it's kind of scattershot but I really like hearing some varied ideas on training. I'm afraid of getting stale in my solo training. "Classmates" blasting music or distracting me is a bit unpractical as I basically have none. I train in a park..mostly before sunrise. Lessons are semi-private. And "the last week" started yesterday. I compete next sunday (pending approval from a board of local big shots who saw me last Saturday.)

But I may really think about going back to more running the form in it's entirety for the last several days. Lately I've been breaking it down quite a bit, especially the opening and closeing of course.

Masterkiller:

That's a relief to hear decent comps DO exist. I haven't seen any before. I am somewhat reassured by the comments I overheard from my demos though. At least SOME people around here bemoan the loss of "real" forms jsut like we do. I hope those are the guys judging but of course my Sifu is the most important "judge" anyways.

Bamboo Leaf:

Looks like that "ting jin" works through the internet. You picked up better on the parts that really concern me than most. Thanks again. Perceptive comments. Your "sidetrack" was right on target. I'm both nervous as hell and also really hoping to be able to reconcile the conflict between "winning" and doing well.

One side note though...I've been a bit uneasy trying to reconcile the fact that local Chinese LOVE to support me for the novelty with the fact that their support does not really mean that I am not really that good. . . or at least it is not evidence to that effect. ie. it seems like a wierd trap to fall into thinking that I actually suck just because they are clapping extra loud because I am a foreigner. It seems to me like I should be able to get something extra out of the warm welcome instead of thinking "Ah...it's just because I am a white dude..." I did NOT make any mistakes in my last demo. My Sifu's comments were basically, "Good, but not enough... you just need MORE of that..." If there's any native speakers listening, his main summary was that it was all basically their but "bu dao wei" in many part. (I'm doing it right but just not enough)


Thanks all.

This thread, to me, is really wierd. Bamboo picked up on what I am trying to make the event about but still....wierd.

[ShaolinTiger00]

I've always thought that traditional forms judging was the bigest crock as the judges were all biased to their own style and everything was always so subjective.

Wushu's standardization makes for a much better competition.

[MasterKiller]

I guess if you take it that seriously it can seem like a waste when judges don't appreciate your flavor. I just like to get in there and show my stuff and see what everyone else has. I've never won an open-hand forms event. I'm just not that purty. I do alright with weapons, though.

[bamboo_ leaf]

(It seems to me like I should be able to get something extra out of the warm welcome instead of thinking "Ah...it's just because I am a white dude..." I did NOT make any mistakes in my last demo. My Sifu's comments were basically, "Good, but not enough... you just need MORE of that..." If there's any native speakers listening, his main summary was that it was all basically their but "bu dao wei" in many part. (I'm doing it right but just not enough)

if the welcome was warm and not just a formality then it was enough, its hard being the only one or one of the very few. For others reading, the comp. In China are judged by people who know what they¡¯re looking for, while at the same time promoting their national sport. In taiji events it¡¯s a series of eliminations starting at local levels moving on up. The comp. Level is quite intense if you¡¯re into it. I am not but can appreciate all the work that goes into it.

If you allow the pressure of being one of his foreign students instead of just one of his students to influence you this can be a problem. If you were accepted by the people watching just as another student instead of his foreign student then this says a lot about your ability and the trust and confidence your teacher has in you.

(You need more of that) could mean many things but I take it to mean sprit, and naturalness. All the people probably are pretty good and doing the same things. Things that set people apart aside from technical execution (an expectation or given) is the sprit or flavor of their movements. To draw this out means that you really know and understand what its about, its something that comes of itself and cannot be forced.

(Good, but not enough) most teachers don¡¯t say good to often, getting a good is not to bad. ;)

(or at least it is not evidence to that effect. ie. it seems like a wierd trap to fall into thinking that I actually suck just because they are clapping extra loud because I am a foreigner.)

don¡¯t cut your self short, true they would clap anyway just for the fact that you are a foreigner, clapping a little louder shows that they feel this foreigner is not so foreign and has managed to get some of it.


For those reading, the comp. In china and in the US are very different. The overall level of execution is pretty high even with the basic divisions. The fact that some or many things are standardized just makes it a little harder with people who know what their looking at. I hope this is not taken as an us verses them but just simply as fact that its really different ball game.

[Ai Lek Ou Seun]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
You've never been to Taiji Legacy. They weigh the weapons. They disqualify you for doing non-traditional moves. They don't give you extra points for yelling.

Jimmy Wong runs a well-judged tournament.

Nice a$$-umption. You happened to be correct this time I've never been to Taiji legacy. My comments were "in general." Not tournament specific.

As always, the exception proves the rule.

[omarthefish]

Good morning....

Interesting contrast between the US and PRC circuits. I'm ignorant of all that. Like I said, I've never done this before here or back home.

..a series of eliminations starting at local levels moving on up...

If I do well, then the next step is not to move up the circuit but to head out to Cangzhou and perform for a guy who is Li Shuwen's grandson. Pretty cool. :cool:

If you allow the pressure of being one of his foreign students...

Not "one of"...his only. But I don't feel any pressure from that...lucky maybe...but not pressured. I think the audience response IS influencing me and I can't help it so I'm thinking about ways to redirect that influence in a positive way. (hear--->neutraliize--->redirect?)

All the people probably are pretty good and doing the same things....

Actually, he often says...in not so many words...mostly everyone out there are doing the same things like you said but they really suck. He means in the way that previous people have talked about Wushu. They look good, crisp, sharp, low stances but no internal harmonies, no jing..

You mentioned "the sprit or flavor of their movements". That's one part of it. The other thing he wants more of is jing. That's the primary measuring rod for Baji....fa jin. The other things are just basic prerequisites to get on the stage. The balance, speed, a really good salute, technical accuracy. The thing his peers will be looking to see in me is if he has been able to teach me any of the Baji fa jin.

To draw this out means that you really know and understand what its about, its something that comes of itself and cannot be forced.

A coupel weeks ago he started giving me some of the "songs". Really cools stuff. Of course they are kind of open secrets that only make sense if you allready are doing a touch of what they describe but still..they are inspirational and I think the really do help to go over them in my head during training.