self defence

[packard]

Hand on heart – can you honestly say you can use your art for self defence?

One of my issues with training in martial arts is the amount of people I have met who train believing they can defend themselves with ridiculous techniques that have no practical value in the street.

This more often than not is not the fault of the practitioner, but the teacher. I saw recently a Karate guy teaching self defence to his class explaining how an X block in horse stance would work if some one front kick you. I just felt that this was so irresponsible of the teacher. I can only assume he had never been in a confrontation before or had little or no understanding of a street confrontation. I feel that it just give students of martial arts a false sense of security that may get them hurt one day.


Your thoughts……………

[l@zylee]

Hello Packard,

Personally and hand on heart I feel I probably could use my arts in the street in a real fight (Hsing Yi/Wing Chun), although I have never had to, I just feel I have enough experience and have been training long enough to defend myself much more effectively than your average person in the street.

As for the Karate teacher, from what I have seen of what is taught in my area these dojo's are a joke! but, its 2004 and most Karate/kickboxing/TKD dojo's are indeed conning people into believing that if they turn up to the lessons and pay every week they'll be hard as f**k! Its just another con! one of many in todays society,
Infact in my area there is a Karate organisation that actually goes knocking on doors recruiting members!, I couln't f**kng believe it, like they were selling windows! they were young lads with a brochure and a pre - organised salutation to greet you with when you opened the door.

The fact that they are fooling people into believing certain ridiculous techniques will be effective in the street doesn't really bother me to be honest, I would hope that the serious practioner would find that common sense out for themselves eventually anyway, after all a martial art should be part of your life just like brushing your teeth, anyone who trains only once a week at a mcdojo is a fool.

Lee

[packard]

quote "I would hope that the serious practioner would find that common sense out for themselves eventually anyway, after all a martial art should be part of your life just like brushing your teeth, anyone who trains only once a week at a mcdojo is a fool. "

I agree totally with your opinion.

Here lies my problem with it all though. Many people out there are not "serious practitioners" and it is those people that are the most vulnerable to the type of conmen you refered too.

I too have had people knock at my door selling Karate. The sad thing about that is I was out at the time and my wife answered. I can't wait for another opportunity to quiz these guys. Anyone else had karate door to door being sold to them?

[rogue]

Packard

I saw recently a Karate guy teaching self defence to his class explaining how an X block in horse stance would work if some one front kick you. Why wouldn't it work? I've caught kicks using a x block and taken the person down. Not a favorite method of mine or one that I show but it can still work against some kicks. I know it's major faults but I'd like to hear from you what they are.

l@zylee

Personally and hand on heart I feel I probably could use my arts in the street in a real fight (Hsing Yi/Wing Chun), although I have never had to, I just feel I have enough experience and have been training long enough to defend myself much more effectively than your average person in the street. You sound doubtful of your skills. So why do you feel that you can use and win with what you've studied?

What makes you two different from the door to door salesmen?

For me, I have used my karate training to defend myself. That doesn't mean that I can go into a BJJ or MMA school and defeat anybody in there. I know my limits.

[packard]

Just so you are clear about what I was saying. I am not critising Karate - and I appologise if it came across as that.

I am critising all teachers, regardless of style, who teach impratical techniques selling them as self defence.

Why do i think an X block in a horse stance will not work in a confrontation?

simple. It is too big, you drop both hands to block with and have no gaurd, moving into a horse stance in a club may not be possible, you may have tight clothing that restricts movement, you open yourself up to further attacks.....the list could go on.

The point is confrontations happen fast and are violent and the gap closes very quickly. Please do not confuse a X block in a horse stance working in a spar to it working on the street. If you believe that and teach it then you are exactly what I am talking about.

"What makes you two different from the door to door salesmen?"

I'll tell you exactly what makes me different. I do not sell on the door. People come to me because I have a reputation as a good teacher, teaching sound techniques that if used, will work on the street. my art is self defence first and that is what people get!

[Dark Knight]

Here lies my problem with it all though. Many people out there are not "serious practitioners" and it is those people that are the most vulnerable to the type of conmen you refered too.

Most people who train are not seriuous. So even if they are at a school that teaches good technique, they may not have the skills to use it.

Lead a horse to water.....


I have been in a couple simple fights. The average guy on the street is untrained and not hard to beat.

I have fought with many people from different styles, it gives me a better understanding of what works and what doesnt. Also it gives me an idea of what hurts ;)

[packard]

good point. thank you.

[rogue]

I'll tell you exactly what makes me different. I do not sell on the door. People come to me because I have a reputation as a good teacher, teaching sound techniques that if used, will work on the street. my art is self defence first and that is what people get!
I have no problem with someone marketing their school by mail, door to door or with a coupon, as long as they teach honestly. Now since you are marketing your school as self defense first, how do you guarantee that your techniques will work on the street? What happens if they don't?

I agree with you on the x block horsestance combo, but the the technique does work. It may not be the best for most situations but it's a workable technique that can catch a kick. I like other methods for the same thing.

[packard]

I can't guarantee that the techniques will work. What I teach with any technique is situational difference and awareness. I openly and honestly talk to my students about the strengths and limitations of a technique and then let them decide.

a good basic jab or cross for example can be a fight finisher but only in the right circumstance or situation. What I give my students is a tool bag of basics and let them decide the efficiency of each given each situation. everyones tool bag is different depending on many factors such as age, gender and experience.

[l@zylee]

You sound doubtful of your skills. So why do you feel that you can use and win with what you've studied?

Hi Rogue,

Firstly like Packard I'm sorry if I came across as being critical of Karate, I didn't mean to, its just probably unfortunate that its the most popular MA, at least in the UK, therefore there are more Karate cowboys than other MA's.

I'm not quite sure how what I said could come across as being doubtful of my skills, at the end of day they seem to serve me well when I spar, so no I can't be 100% sure that I am going to pull it off on the street if I find myself in that situation because its never happened.


"What makes you two different from the door to door salesmen?"

What makes me different to the door to door salesman is my experience and reasons for studying Kung Fu, the boys that come knocking in my area are all teenagers who have recently started training, and I have seen the advert in the newspaper myself, "full training to black belt in 2 years" I think the problem lies is in that sentence.

Cheers
Lee

[rogue]

Originally posted by packard
I can't guarantee that the techniques will work. What I teach with any technique is situational difference and awareness. I openly and honestly talk to my students about the strengths and limitations of a technique and then let them decide.

a good basic jab or cross for example can be a fight finisher but only in the right circumstance or situation. What I give my students is a tool bag of basics and let them decide the efficiency of each given each situation. everyones tool bag is different depending on many factors such as age, gender and experience.
Let me tell you where I'm coming from. If someone says that they teach karate, kung fu or whatever as an art and not self defense that's fine. If the student gets into a scrap and comes out OK because of the training then so much the better. If someone says that they teach a sport and not self defense and the student gets into a scrap and comes out OK because of the training then that's fine. But to me for someone to say that they teach self defense then the importance of what is trained gets raised. If someone is telling people that they can defend themselves then they better be able to.


I openly and honestly talk to my students about the strengths and limitations of a technique and then let them decide. That's good that you are honest about the techniques, but by what process do you enable your students to decide for themselves what would work for them and what won't?


I'm not quite sure how what I said could come across as being doubtful of my skills, at the end of day they seem to serve me well when I spar, so no I can't be 100% sure that I am going to pull it off on the street if I find myself in that situation because its never happened. Sorry Lee, I lumped you in with what Packard said. My apologies.:o

[packard]

great question, thanks.

I am really lucky to have most of my students training with me over 2 years. Most of them understand what will work well because of their experience. I teach doormen, police officers, security gaurds, and a customs guy. They are great at sharing what works in different confrontations they have had.

As for beginners, I have to empart the basics. We do however practice a lot of role play type training where they can test out as much of what they know under some pressure.

There are of course limitations to this. There is no real pressure in the training hall compared to out side but it is the closest I can get to it with out people getting too hurt during training.

[rogue]

Thanks Packard, as soon as I hear the words "self defense" I see a warning flag and tend to jump. A few more questions, but non-hostile this time.


As for beginners, I have to empart the basics. We do however practice a lot of role play type training where they can test out as much of what they know under some pressure. Could you go into this more? How do you put the pressure on?

Also what art or arts are you basing your instruction on?

[Ray Pina]

Hand on heart .... have .... and am sure will again.

The great thing though is recently, I've gotten much better control of my body, so even recently I had some guy get rediculous with me at an after hours club and he tried pushing me and I just aborbed and tossed him to the side. He didn't want to play after that and I was kind of drunk (not a drinker but special occassion) and just laughed the whole thing off. A few friends were like "what happened" and I was like, "I don't know. Let's do another shot."

Those type of things are more common for me now than actual fisticuffs.

[MasterKiller]

We teach variations of the "X block down" as a defense against the shoot. Try it against a kick and you'll get punched in the nose.

[packard]

quote "Could you go into this more? How do you put the pressure on?

Also what art or arts are you basing your instruction on?"

I teach the basics of centre line in that it is the weakest part of the body, so hit it hard and fast. I use boxing techniques as my punching base and only low line kicking. I stand and grapple using knees and elbows as a base as well.

I believe that an understanding of the ranges work well, from verbal throuch to touch.

I pressure train using a number of students agaist one, both in testing the techniques and with pad work. I like to physically tire the students and then pile the pressure on as well. this works great.

I like the idea of pre - emtive striking and use this situationally.

I do a lot of focus agression work and mental training too. Controlled agression is great, but you have to dig deep and find agression first.

hope that helps with a few ideas.

[l@zylee]

Hi Packard,

What martial art do you teach if you don't mind me asking?

Cheers

Lee

[packard]

broadly - kung fu.

The style is based on anumber of principles. the main one is use what works well for you. Given where I am at in my life, i have taken a number of ideas from different aspects of martial arts and put together what works well for me. I also share those aspects with others for them to make a style individual to them.

[SimonM]

I am confident that the martial arts I have learned would be sufficient for self defense. As I am not a sifu, I will not comment on the teaching-related isues in this thread.