how to properly perform the technical aspects of Wu Sau

[whippinghand]

let it begin.

[Watchman]

Where to begin? I need to get out my slide rule. :rolleyes: :D

[Jeff Brown]

this knowledge comes from much training and tuition fees, must not be revealed for free!

[Martial Joe]

Well lets see...

You dont want it to be to close to you so it doesnt get pinned to you.
You want the fingers strait,and the thumb in so your fingers will have a less chance of being broken.
You want it in the center ofcourse!
And you want the energy there...always...

If anyone else knows more then that...lets hope they share...

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif IXIJoe KaveyIXIhttp://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif
I am Sharky's main man...

[whippinghand]

Wu sau does not always have to be in centre.

[reneritchie]

If you mean in terms of shape, then pretty much what applies to other bridges-elbow in, wrist aligned, intention directed, etc. but with fingers drawn up. If you mean in terms of application, usually covering what's exposed by the actions of the other hand, often by occupying the most direct path between an opponent's weapons and my center.

What do you think?

Rgds,

RR

[EmptyCup]

If wu sau is not in the center then the centerline is not being protected/occupied by your hand. Therefore you are open to having an attack pin your bridge and go through.

[whippinghand]

How far up?

[whippinghand]

You are always open one way or another. I believe that I wrote that it is not ALWAYS in centre.

[EmptyCup]

I know.

I agree that one is always open one way or another but I believe that wu sau is always in center...even with shifting...

please explain your comment that it is not ALWAYS in center...in what situation would it not be in center?

[whippinghand]

Sometimes it is at the shoulder line. Perhaps it is call something else when it gets there.

[EmptyCup]

pak sau?

[whippinghand]

I learned Pak Sau, in kindergarten.

[Martial Joe]

I did not say always...I said you want it there,not always want it there...
That is where I would like my wu sau to be while entering.I wont have it at my shoulders :rolleyes:

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif IXIJoe KaveyIXIhttp://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif
I am Sharky's main man...

[EmptyCup]

hmmm...aren't we a little cocky? :cool:

i know non Yip Man lineages have it at shoulder level...and even some from Yip Man lineages. The reason being if it is already at one end, you only have to protect the other...

That's ridiculous...in that case why don't you just throw the rest of wing chun's principles out the door? :)

[whippinghand]

Sometimes, not ALWAYS, you DON'T want it there, you WANT it somewhere else.

[sunkuen]

how do you explain the 2nd section of the dummy form

[EmptyCup]

that's three pak saus...

[EmptyCup]

...and while one hand paks, the other is doing wu in the CENTER...

[sunkuen]

?

[Martial Joe]

Whipping Hand~The only one I can think of is at your shoulder,but isnt that a cross pak sua.

Other then that it should be in the center.
Maybe not your center but your oponants...

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif IXIJoe KaveyIXIhttp://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif
I am Sharky's main man...

[EmptyCup]

man sau? maybe my 2nd section is not your 2nd section then...

hmmm...what kind of kick? In my 2nd section the kick is after pak/fak to ribs combination which was after a low bong...

[sunkuen]

slight difference,we dont strike ribs in that part

[EmptyCup]

where do you strike? do you mind telling me your teacher?

[sunkuen]

strike under the armpit.......i prefer anonymity or i'd be using my real name. :)

[EmptyCup]

sorry...must be tired...I meant under the armpit

the ribs are much lower :)

[S.Teebas]

Sink the elbow and close the angle (at elbow). It is important to protect your centre, but all this talk about what it looks like is secondary to HOW you do it in relation to the incoming force.

S.Teebas

[panos]

i would lkek to add two more things, to talk about. First your wu sao must not be too far away from your face because when you are doind a bon sao, an opponent can catch grab both your hands with one of his. But then again not to close to your face as already told. Second, when your wu sao goes backwards, you move your arm without changing your elbow angle. Still trying to do this

[S.Teebas]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Second, when your wu sao goes backwards, you move your arm without changing your elbow angle...[/quote]

Why?

[kungfu cowboy]

Probably because structural stability is maintained that way.

"If do right, no can defense!"----Mr. Miyagi

[Ish]

why move your wu sau backwards

[S.Teebas]

So you are saying that you don't change the angle in your elbow while doing Wu sau ?

If this is the case how does your arm move backwards? ...not changing the angle, what would you say is the difference between a Wu sau and a Gan Sau?


S.Teebas

[Ish]

I thought a gan sau is a low block used against kicks or uppercuts.

[S.Teebas]

Mechanics are mechanics. And if dont change the angle in you arm (i.e only pivot at shoulder joint) whats going to happen? You will replicate the same mechanics that a gaun sau (spelling??) dictates. (lower arm)

[Ish]

So why would you want to move your wu sau backwards.

[Jeff Brown]

wu sao (defending/protecting hand) has to be defending something, right? isn't it there often to back up mun sao (questioning hand)? my understanding is wu sao moves from centre to upper gate as mun sao becomes fully extended.

[kungfu cowboy]

If your elbow pops up while in Wu Sao, your arm will collapse from much less pressure than if the elbow is down, thus maybe a strike will penetrate. Maybe a slow backwards Wu Sao trains you to keep your elbow sunk under pressure, increasing the chance of successful deflection.

"If do right, no can defense!"----Mr. Miyagi

[hunt1]

Can not the wu sao be used in offense?If used with with powerfull forward energy does the elbow have to be down?If the wu makes contact with the incoming punch on the underside of the punch will it collapse under the pressure or will it displace the space the punch occupies?Is the backwards moving wu sao a wu or a jut sao?

[reneritchie]

WC- The question answers itself. How about you sharing your views as well? It's always easier in conversation. WRT shoulder line and being called something else, it might still be Wu Sao if protecting/guarding, or something else if no longer so.

EC- I'm from Sum Nung lineage and Wu Sao is typically at sternum level, the way I learned, but can move within its Chek Chuen.

Ish- In my experience, when the Wu Sao moves back, its usually because other things are moving forward, so relatively, it's stable.

Hunt1- I think all bridges are at least, in part, offensive and even passive ones are usually part of a greater offense 8)

Rgds,

RR

[kungfu cowboy]

If the Wu moves forward to strike, wouldn't it be a change of intent and become a strike, therefore no longer Wu, or at least no longer just Wu? I think the idea is to have a few basic weapons and deflections coupled to the principle/energy/structure, which change as the situation warrants.

"If do right, no can defense!"----Mr. Miyagi

[Ish]

instead of moving the wu sau backwards would it be safer to turn into a bong or a tan. I know you would have to move the wu sau back a bit due to the time it would take to react.

[Watchman]

Is it already up 40 responses? Do I hear 50? 60?

[Jeff Brown]

It depends!!

What do I win?

[kungfu cowboy]

http://www.utexas.edu/cc/vislab/gallery/ArmModel/SkeletonUpper-icon.gif
Begin with hands at Dantien

http://www.utexas.edu/cc/vislab/gallery/ArmModel/ObstacleSide-icon.gif

Begin Wu Sao. Relax the shoulder.

http://www.utexas.edu/cc/vislab/gallery/ArmModel/ModelSide-icon.gif

Now begin to bring the Wu Sao into position.

This lesson will continue after these opening movements have been mastered.

"If do right, no can defense!"----Mr. Miyagi

[Sleepflower]

Moving forwards will become too much like a Tan Sau.

Moving Back (not directly back)will be just be as efficient.

[sunkuen]

of course wu sau moves backwards...siu lim tao cant be wrong! was that too easy of an answer,perhaps,but its right there in the form.

[chu yun]

It's about time someone posted that.

[[Censored]]

As the hand moves backwards, the mind remains forwards.

That is part of the whole point. ;)

[EmptyCup]

my wu sau is at sternum level too...with one fist's distance away from body

[Sihing73]

Hello,

While it is true that most Wing Chun do the Wu in the form drawing back there is at least one Wing Chun teacher who has reversed the method. Chung Kwok Chow moves the Wu forward and draws the Fook back in the form.

I believe that in application one may withdraw the Wu however only to point at which time it must convert to something else, NG Jut Sau or Taun Sau etc. You certainly would not want to withdraw your Wu too far, well maybe you would and I would thank you for it :D . If you think about it, even if withdrawing the energy in Wu is still going forward. In Fook, you can withdraw the elbow and use the energy to draw in or suck in the opponent.

As to height of Wu; mine starts around sternum level and progresses slightly higher as it moves out. At completion it is not uncommon for my Wu to be at chin level or even slightly higher.

Try this, take up your Wu at Sternum level and have someone exert pressure on it. Feel the energy and how well you can resist or guide their force. Now, place the Wu higher at Chin level and try the same thing. Which provides more support with less strength used?

Everyone will do things slightly different but nobody is necessarily wrong per se. Don't wear blinders but keep teh eyes open and always question things ;)

Peace,

Dave

[reneritchie]

I like to think the sets have a pretty good balance. For example, in SLT, as I learned it, the Wu Sao withdraws, but in CK there are at least 2 kinds of Wu Sao that extend. So, the flexibility might already be built in (and you could switch and swap, take apart and explore for variety and experience 8).

Rgds,

RR

[Sihing73]

Hi Rene,

You do raise a valid point, in many cases there are different ways to do things found in the different forms. If you were to apply the Wu with the Dummy it would have to be "extended" :p

I think that Sifu Chow, and this is my opinion only, made the change based on the more prevalent use of the Wu. By teaching the "extending" Wu first, or earlier, students are exposed to it sooner and this is the way it would most likely be used. To be able to effectively us a "withdrawing" Wu I think one may need a bit more skill or sensitivity than the reverse, again my opinion alone ;).

This kind of leads us back to the idea of using concepts rather than techniques. If one understands the different ways of exerting and receving energy then the shape becomes more fluid and it is not necessary to be as strict. If you choose to use an exerting type of energy then you can do so whether it is with Wu, Taun, Bong or whatever. Likewise if you should use more of a withdrawing energy. As long as you grasp what the energy can do, and base it on what is being given by the opponent, then the shape is less important. The other thing is that some shapes will only allow so much flexibility based on their design. For example if you withdraw the Wu too far back then it will become a detriment rather than a help regardless of how well shaped it is. Although there are always exceptions to the rule :D

In performing a Wu Sau, it is far easier and safer, IMHO, to train to exert the force towards the opponent. Even in the traditional manner of doing the form the energy in Wu is still forward even when pulling back. Being able to perform this is a great asset. Still, it is easier and more immediately applicable to extend the Wu forward. When I look at the Fook Sau I view it and use it more as, what Sifu likes to refer to as, a "stalking" hand. No real energy being given instead it is used to "listen" to the opponent and react according to what they do. Viewed in this context I find it easy to see how it would be more withdrawing as it would "follow" the opponent in and stay with him/her. In doing so you may choose to collapse and go downward using a Jut Sau or you may choose to go forward and slighlty downward using a Jum Sau. Still, in both of these techniques the energy is accepting of what is given and would still tend to follow rather than lead.

Peace,

Dave

[wingchunalex]

wu sau should be chest level, hand on center, fingers pointing up. fist distance between elbow and body. when doing wu sau relax the hand as it comes out then contract/flex/flinch it up into wu sau, this will give it a spring forward. because of the flexing of the wrist in doing wu sau this way it can also be a strike with the outer edge of the hand, almost like a 1 inch punch.

know yourself don't show yourself, think well of yorself don't tell of yourself. lao tzu

[sunkuen]

Your missing the whole point of the wu sau withdrawing (in slt)! When the wu sau is returning you obviously do not bring it right back to the chest because the hand and the elbow would clearly be collapsed ( chuk kiu).So when withdrawing the wu sau you bring it back as far as you can till you are just at the point of your "structure" being compromised, then it turns to fook sau again to go forward.Sunkuen :)

[Sihing73]

Hello sunkuen,

Thanks for the insight. I am however more concerned with applicaiton rather than form.
In application, the Wu will withdraw only to form something else, a Ng jut or a Taun etc. The form serves as a guide not set in stone. However, in actual use what is the intent and form of Wu will it really withdraw to a point only to change to Fook or will it exert forward pressure only to become something more striking :)

BTW, when I was taught the "traditional" way Wu never moved back to be any closer than a little over a fist distance from the chest. I hope that I did not miss the point completly, it is simply that I am now working on another approach of using Wu.

Peace,

Dave

[sunkuen]

hey dave

Application wise,sure you can turn it into jut,tan,why not lop da.The only things set in stone as far as the forms are concerned are the principles.BTW not only does the hand stay a fist and a thumb length away form the trunk don't forget the elbow as well.

P.S. The fook sau is a good punch dave but against other wing chun guy's i prefer the punch from the heart.

Piece

Sunkuen :cool:

[Roy D. Anthony]

Well if people understood the use of the wu sao coming back, no one would change the form at all.

[Sihing73]

Hello Roy,

You make an interesting statement. I am sure what you meant to say was:
If you did Wu Sau like me it would be okay

I find your post a little insulting to me and my Sifu. He has been teaching in NYC for over 30 years and was one of the first to teach Wing Chun openly. He is always willing to question things and do what he can to improve the art for himself and his students. He and I discussed the change in form over 5 years ago, it was not done overnight. We feel there is some benefit to it. Of course, I don't expect you to understand. If there is, as Rene pointed out, examples of extending Wu's in the Chum Kui, then it does not seem to violate any principles, only introduce a little earlier another way of performing Wu.

I would like to extend an offer for you to visit either NY or Philly so you could examine first hand what I am talking about. If time and finances permit, I would love to visit Canada but am not sure when I could arrange that. Unfortunately, it is an easy thing to make all sorts of comments behind the safety of posting on the internet. It is a shame really that so much distance lies between some of the members on this board, there are some whom I would really enjoy meeting.

I am curious, if and when you teach do you instill the same narrowminded self serving attitude in your students that you have shown here? I mean you were doing good for a short time posting things of interest and which actually edified the art and those in it. What happened, could'nt stomach the idea that you could post here and be an asset? Or is your ego too fragile to allow the idea that anyone deviating from your methods could be right, too?

As always, Roy, you could e-mail me the address is below:
dmcknight@rcn.com
sihing73@juno.com

Peace,

Dave

[reneritchie]

Roy - What application(s) are you referring to? Maybe Dave's sifu's experiences have already considered that and still believe the way they do.

Dave - Once Roy has elaborated, maybe you could comment on whether or not his points have been considered.

For me, I think the close body methods (especially throws) work very well off the withdrawing Wu Sao. Dave's point about the extending one being stressed for new students is good as well. The way I learned, we did that before the SLT in our San Sik, so I felt it covered. In another teaching approach, however, it may need address (anyone?).

Rgds,

RR

[sunkuen]

hey dave

In reference to c.k.chow teaching for thirty years at least half of those years he hadn't even learned the whole system himself.I know this because when my sihing was in n.y., c.k. chow asked him to teach some of the more advanced parts of the system because his students were nearing completion of the system as he "knew" it and he was becoming nervous about having to tell them he taught them everything he knows.I post this because it really makes me question the authority of c.k. chow to make changes to any form in the wing chun system.

[Sihing73]

Hello sunkuen,

You are welcome to question all you like. For me, I have seen first hand several different Wing Chun people and am confident that I can learn from Sifu Chow.

Who, may I ask was your "Sihing" and what did he teach to Sifu Chow? I know that Sifu has sought out various others in Wing Chun and taken what he liked and "integrated" it with what he was taught originally but, to my knowledge he only added things he already knew. For example, he did take soem things from Yip Chun for the knife but he already knew the knife first.

As to your reason for raising this question; lets just say I am dubious of your good intentions ;)

Peace,

Dave

[reneritchie]

Sunkuen raises an interesting point but then who did learn the "whole system"? And was it even a static target? When the answer to that comes back, and makes it an almost impossible criteria, what else is left to determine if someone can change something?

Rgds,

RR

[Roy D. Anthony]

I would very much like to meet your Sifu. He and I are more on the same wavelength. I would love to exchange Ideas and research notes with him as I know he is open minded. I have witnessed this already. :)

[sunkuen]

What i meant by the whole system was simply knowing all the forms.If you didn't stick around long enuff to learn all the forms then perhaps you didn't receive all the knowledge your sifu had to share with you.

Dave, your being a little paranoid don't you think? I raised the question because it was completely in line with the remarks you made about your present sifu making changes in the slt.

btw, This sihing of mine and your sifu dont have any quarrels that i know of so i will chose to keep his name anonymous.Should you decide that you really need to know ask your sifu.Furthermore it's really no big deal that a sihing of mine taught your sifu something,is it dave? We all have to learn from somebody. :)

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I kind of figured you would not want to name anyone specific. Could you at least relay what was taught, or should I take your word for it?

The tone I got in your post was that Sifu Chow was not qualified to make any changes. If I missunderstand the tone of your post then please forgive me.

As to whether or not one of your Sihings had anything to offer to Sifu Chow, no, that really is no big deal to me. As I already said, Sifu Chow has openly sought out others who do Wing Chun in order to further his own understanding of the art. Knowledge can be found in even the most unlikely of places, as some on this board can attest ;)

Peace,

Dave

[reneritchie]

Sure, but many of the most famous teachers in modern times haven't known all the forms (some may have everything but the knives, or pole, or part of the dummy, etc.) when they started out. Some have cross-referenced, some have filled in, and some have changed.

Maybe there are other criteria?

Rgds,

RR

[sunkuen]

Dave, dont take my word for it ask c.k. chow if it upsets you that much (this wasn't an attack on sifu chow). If the tone you got from my post was that sifu chow was not qualified to make any changes to the forms then you understood it correctly. ;) LaiD BacK ;)

[sunkuen]

rene your absolutly right many famous sifu's have not learned the entire system...take emin boztepe for e.g. do you think he qualifies to make changes to the siu lim tao,your famous rene,do you think you qualify (and i get the idea that you actually know all the forms in your system)?This again is not an attack but for the sake of argument.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I think we both understand each other. I respect your right to your own view just as I have the right to my view.

I would never presume to make a judgement of someones ability to do Wing Chun or change the manner in which they do it without meeting that person in person. Nor would I do it based on second or third hand information. But hey, that's just me ;)

When you think about each and every one of us makes changes to Wing Chun as it was taught to us. We incorporate the teachings and then learn to apply it from the perspective of our bodies and needs. I highly doubt that Wing Chun today looks exactly the same as it did 150 years ago. You and I could be taught by the same Sifu and I am willing to bet each of us will do things slightly differently. Then when we apply these movements into Chi Sau or sparring I may concentrate on a certain type of approach while you take another road. The changes made by Sifu Chow, if you agree that an extending Wu is found later in the system, were not changes in the systme but kind of in the order in which they were presented. So, the system was not changed only the order in which some things were presented.

Further discussion of this subject will likley do nothing to serve either of us or the art of Wing Chun. Therefore I suggest we drop the subject of specific people being qualified nor not and ocncentrate on the movement in question.

How about discussing the proper shape or form and energy of the Wu Sau?

Peace,

Dave

[sunkuen]

How do you know who's hands i've touched...ASSUME=ASS/U/ME! Please don't assume anything about me dave. I do agree we should let this part of the thread close. What do you think wing chun looked like 150 years ago? :cool:

[Jeff Brown]

Dave said:
"I would never presume to make a judgement of someones ability to do Wing Chun or change the manner in which they do it without meeting that person in person."
Dave also said to Roy D. Anthony:
"Hi Roy,
First let me thank you for your sterling advice. I will heed you advice and try to look at life through the eyes of someone who has nothing better to do but post vague comments at various sites throughout the internet. I will try to think about what such a life must be like, most likley few friends, afraid to openly share any knowledge I may have becuase it may show my true level of skill whihc is suffereing because I spend all of my time at the computer rather than in training."
Have you met Roy, Dave, or are you too busy deleting posts you don't like to actually get out there and meet people? I try to imagine what your life is like....
LMFAO!!

[Sihing73]

Hello Meng Shuo,

No I have not met Roy. I also don't remember naming any names in that post. Of course, since you were so kind as to copy it into your last post perhaps you could point our where I mention Roys name :) Kind of like the old adage "If the shoe fits...." :P

Read the post, I stated and gave my opinion of people who post at several different places on the Internet when they could rather spend that time more constructively. What happened, did I touch a nerve? :D

Why don't you post something of substance rather than petty slights? I have conversed with Roy and am confident of his ability to defend himself and state his views, when he wishes.

BTW; I will be meeting several people tomorrow in Teaneck, NJ. I have also met and trained with such people as Samual Kwok, Yip Chun, Steve Swift, Leo Fong, Emin Boztepe, Keith Kernsprecht, Leung Ting, Joe Grepo and many others, and had a good time doing so. Your opinion of me does not make me lose any sleep at night, I am secure in my ability.

I realize that distance can be a factor in meeting people. However, there is an upcomming Friendship Seminar which I believe will be held in Chicago. Perhaps we could meet there. Of course, if you ever visit Philly or NY I am sure we could meet as well. And of course, you are welcome to attend the Tourney in NJ as well.

Hey, if you want to split the cost of my airfare I will be glad to fly up to Canada and visit with you as well. Or conversly we could discuss the possibility of sharing the cost of you traveling to Philly. Rest assured though that sooner or later I will make it up to Canada, most likely not this year, as there are several people I would like to meet, Rene, Pat Gordon, Roy, Whipping Hand and of course, You. What are the chances of you visiting me???

Peace,

Dave

[Jeff Brown]

Please let us quaint neighbours to the North know of your arrival plans. I'd be happy to meet you.

As for trivial posts, I don't think I have posted many. Check back and see just how many of my posts on things like form, stance, punches, and so on, don't seem to warrant the attention of the good people on this board who, obviously, are way too talented at Wing Chun to lower themselves with a reply.

The egos out here are truly remarkable, and I hope that all Sifus around the world take note of just how NOT to behave toward those who have little more than a genuine interest in martial arts to offer, lest people decide Wing Chun is just another elitist group of grandstanding boors to be avoided like the plague.

Anyway Dave, one last comment (you may find it trivial): I think a moderator should be more in the background, rather than trying to dominate every single thread with his pearls of wisdom.

Take care.

Meng Shuo

[reneritchie]

I think I'm more infamous, unfortunately 8( Personally, though, I don't think my analysis is far enough along to pass on what I know yet, nevermind change it. Changes have occured, however, over the generations. Yip Man made some to his system, Yuen Kay-San and Sum Nung made some to theirs. Others have done the same. The way I learned, any changes were passed down, explained, tested, and both old and new versions tried out. When things are upfront like that, I have no problem with them, because students can make informed choices about what they're learning.

Rgds,

RR

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Should I ever be fortunate enough to visit Canada I will be glad to meet with anyone wishing to do so. I inquired from Rene and Whipping Hand about how far the Falls are from where they are located. Rene replied that it was some distance and WH did not reply as of yet. I am trying to talk my wife into visiting, but she suspects my motivation as I seem to bring WC or the MA in general into many of our travels, LOL.

Perhaps some type of Canadian Friendship seminar could be arranged, RENE?? I am sure you, and others, could show me some good places to eat. Also, I believe Ho Kam Ming is located in Canada as well.

As to egos, there is some truth to that statement. There are some on this board who truly think highly of themselves and feel that anyone not in their sphere has little, if anything, to offer. I am sure that you and I would not have the same names come to mind though. ;)

As to remaining in the background; I post when I feel I have something relevant to offer. If you look around you will see I am not on every post and on some I responded days later wishing to give others an opportunity. However, you will rarely see me posting negative comments directed at any group or lineage although, being human, I am still working on my responses to some individuals :p

Feel free to discuss the art of Wing Chun. As to whether others on the board respond or not, that is their perogative. If you compare this board to others, say like the Ving Tsun Forum that several here frequent ;) you will notice a difference. While we do have some egos and petty bickering here at least the art of Wing Chun is being discussed. While on that board, it seems little more than a group of name calling children. Any attempt to discuss the subject of Wing Chun is met with ridicule and insults. I am sure that someone with a genuine interest in martial arts would prefer a place where the topics of the art can be discussed.

We do not live in a perferct world and as time progresses we each, hopefully, learn. Sometimes we learn to change things and other times we realize things should have been done the original way after all.

In any event I look forward to reading some substantial posts from you, and others, in the near future.

Peace,

Dave

[Jeff Brown]

I look forward to reading something intelligent from you too, Dave. Take care.

[EmptyCup]

Yes, Ho Kam Ming is in Canada, specifically Toronto but he is very critical of "outside" wing chun...he has a very sharp tongue and if you are one to get offended if your wing chun sifus are slighted, don't visit the old man :)

Just a prior warning...

and please don't flame me here guys...i'm sure Ho himself will admit that he thinks his methods are superior to other wing chun sifus...

[mun hung]

Can you really blame him?

[EmptyCup]

Because you think he's justified in thinking he is good? Just to clarify I know people who learn from him AND people who don't and visited him. His students have some pretty weird techniques that I think leave them vulnerable...my friends who visited him are very good practioners...something I rarely see...

Ho's critiques were just differences in approach. The whole his method versus my method thing. I don't think one way was necessarily better than the other...

[Roy D. Anthony]

I'm Sorry but I didn't understand your last post. could you clarify that a bit more? especially about who is vulnerable and the weird techniques?
I would appreciate that sincerely. TY.

[wongfeilung809]

i was taught that the wu sau should always have forward intent, and should never get closer than a fist length from your own chest, you should have moved way before then, if you find yourself in the situation, the some techniques out of the third form "come out"...
simpleangles

[whippinghand]

If the Wu sau is supposed to be a fist away from the body, as posted above, how does it get there if it is to have "forward intent"?

[kj]

Your questions begs another. Do you believe that forward intent can be present without motion, or not?

[whippinghand]

Yours poses another ...

Can you have forward intention in both hands?

[kj]

"Can you have forward intention in both hands?"

Intention begins in the mind. Yes, I can express it in both hands [and more] at the same time. Can you?

I can also express it with or without obvious motion. Can you?

I can have and express forward intention even when my wu sau hand is moving toward my body. Can you?

Many questions have mounted. I hope you will be generous in answering as I have been.

Regards and thanks,
- Kathy Jo

[wongfeilung809]

Can you have forward intention in both hands?

yeah, i thought that was chi sao???? forward intention is in my whole frickin body...i am held back, all the time....even in sil lim tao...like a snake ready to strike...oh and your answer whipping hand is in the message that you question.
simpleangles

[reneritchie]

Well said, KJ. I tend to look at it like this - if you mount a spring on a wall and begin to compress it, even though the end looks like its going back towards the wall, the force of the spring is still going forward away from it. Of course, the difference between Yee and the spring is that the spring can't choose when to release its potential 8)

Rgds,

RR

[joy chaudhuri]

"Because you think he's justified in thinking he is good? Just to clarify I know people who learn from him AND people who don't and visited him. His students have some pretty weird techniques that I think leave them vulnerable...my friends who visited him are very good practioners...something I rarely see...
Ho's critiques were just differences in approach. The whole his method versus my method thing. I don't think one way was necessarily better than the other...".
--------------------------------------
Vulnerable? Depends on who you are talking about. Every teacher has people who have spent long quality time with him amd others who name drop
with less of an association.You have to compare A students with A students. There are Bs, Cs, Ds and Es in every crowd. Yes he has confidence in his teaching methods and yes you understandably have a different opinion.No offense intended.

[Roy D. Anthony]

Quote:
"Just because you train with the Best, doesn't mean YOU are the Best."
-Master Pan Qing Fu

[mun hung]

I think that Mr. Whip just threw the question out there just to see how many would answer correctly or incorrectly. No fault in that. Everyones so sensitive these days. Must be all the chi-sau! :D

Rene - I liked your "spring" explanation. At the moment; I'm going thru your book for the very first time. Maybe you can quiz me later. ;)

[Jeff Brown]

Leung Ting trained with the best, and he's the best... ;)

[reneritchie]

Thanks. In the old days, I think they would have used rattan to make their point. 8)

Rgds,

RR

[EmptyCup]

Dave, you don't need to censor the jokes. It's all fun and games...no personal attacks. There's alot of censorship going on here even though there's no foul language or sexually explicit content and no personal attacks such as "you are the biggest bleep that was ever born in the history of mankind"

If anything, censor those of us who deliberately come onto this forum with the single intent to antagonize other forumn members who just want to exchange information. Members who don't contribute beyond one-liners which 99% of the time are just thinly veiled attacks or inflammatory lines...

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Thanks for the input. I am trying to be fair. I have left several posts between some people alone. However, it is possible that I acted too hastily with some. With others, I think I have been correct as some of the one liners do seem derogatory with no real benefit to anyone.

Still, I do appreciate your input and comments. I also appreciate everyone elses as well. See how "politically correct" I can be. :D

Seriously, anyone wishing to contact me may always do so by e-mail at:
dmcknight@rcn.com
Sihing73@juno.com

Peace,

Dave

[whippinghand]

don't you mean politically biased?

[whippinghand]

Kathy Jo, your response begets yet another question: SHOULD you have forward intention in both arms?

[kj]

In what context, and from what frame of reference?

[EmptyCup]

I guess you see what I mean :D Some people never know when to stop...

[whippinghand]

In what context would YOU like to discuss it in?

[EmptyCup]

menace to society...sigh...I bet you're one of those 12 year olds who sits in front of the computer all day long going on kung fu forums pretending to be bruce lee. Acting like you ACTUALLY know what you're talking about but since you never say anything substantial enough for people to know you're a trash talker, you can fool some into thinking that you actually know jack. I bet you feel like a real man after asserting your all-encompassing knowledge and arrogance on net...you're impressing no one but yourself Whippy...grow up and act a little mature why don't you? There are babies out there that have more decency and class than you...

...and real men don't keep on picking on women...

[whippinghand]

You're right Empty Cup... I DO impress myself. And that's all that matters.

[EmptyCup]

I'm glad that you finally admitted that you are an arrogant, conceited and ego-centric person :D

I guess that leaves the question that many of us are dying to hear:

Why DO you come onlne? To SHARE information? You don't. To GAIN information? Why? You know everything already. To help newbies or those asking for advice? You only ridicule them. To impress others? You say you only care about impressing yourself. So what is the answer to the question, pray tell???

You have a problem with our moderator as well...so why in the name of Ng Mui do you still come here daily to stir the dung?

[whippinghand]

Why do YOU come here? To whine, obviously. Your contributions amount to an Empty Cup.

[Roy D. Anthony]

An empty cup suggests one who is willing to learn. SO far none of that seems to be true. perhaps as many do here, one is hiding behind false humility. Perhaps the term should be reconsidered.

[Watchman]

LOL @ WH's spin-off thread going over 100 posts.