BartChamDao - substitute

[VingDragon]

I just think about to purchase something like that:

double batons as a substitute of double wingchun knives

what do you think, guys?

check attachment or click on link here:

http://img65.exs.cx/img65/5525/502840nd.th.jpg

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by VingDragon
I just think about to purchase something like that:

double batons as a substitute of double wingchun knives

what do you think, guys?

check attachment or click on link here:

http://img65.exs.cx/img65/5525/502840nd.th.jpg
Baat Jaam Do---accept no substitutes. I'm taught the purpose of the knife set is to improve the hands. I'd be leery of changing the training so substantially. Why not try wooden or composite knives made to simulate the baat jaam do?

How does a baton simulate the weight and balance as well as the edge of the real deal? Does the baton turn in the hand as a blade does?

You could, however, substitute a couple of butcher knives or cleavers instead and work on perfecting the ultimate prime rib.

Regards,

[VingDragon]

I agree with you, that double knives are the best for training etc... (heavy, turns on hand)

but

as a security worker and regular person on the street I'm not walking armed with bartchamdao knives in my pocket. who does?

Nowa days is 21 century, I think :)

[anerlich]

I've been doing BJD training with two sticks for years. As well as the blades.

While it is a knife set, it is ALLEGEDLY supposed to be transferable to any short weapon. Otherwise, IMO it has little practical application and thus is a waste of time.

It's illegal to carry BJD for self defense where I live, or any other weapon for that matter as a private citizen.

I'm looking at improvised weapons, and you're much more likely to find a car antenna/tire iron/stick etc. i don't look in gutters that much, bit I haven't seen many paired hooked swords lying around for use by the innocent WC person under duress.

Clawhammers are a good substitute for weight and grip/forearm strength training effect. Plus legally valid in a toolbox, etc. in the boot of your car.

"How does a baton simulate the weight and balance as well as the edge of the real deal?"

How does the weight and balance of the 'real deal' stack up to those of the real world objects you are likely to have on hand and maybe have to use in a defense situation?

"Does the baton turn in the hand as a blade does?"

Pretty much IMO. Too long a stick, though, you cannot circle it inside your arm like the BJD, though there are possibilities to adapt this.

"Nowa days is 21 century, I think "

Bingo!

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I agree with you, that double knives are the best for training etc... (heavy, turns on hand)...but...as a security worker and regular person on the street I'm not walking armed with bartchamdao knives in my pocket. who does?" (Ving Dragon)


Derek:

I don't know if they have changed the laws here in NYC (where you and I both live)....but back in November, 1980....I was stopped by a policeman for having an expired inspection sticker on my windshied...he wanted to give me a ticket (which he did)...but guess what else happened?

I had two of the exact same weapon you posted a picture of underneath the front seat of my car - and when I opened my door...he saw them...and immediately arrested me for having them. I didn't know this at the time - but they were considered to be a concealed weapon because of the pop-up factor at the end of it.

Spent about 6 hours in jail....got in front of a judge about midnight..and he let me go with just a warning.

I remember the date so clearly because it was election day...when Ronald Reagan won his first term in office.

[VingDragon]

hoo, hoo :confused:

[Tydive]

VingDragon,

For street use I really liked my straight night stick. I used it on several occasions but was mainly using Escrema techniques. There are quite a few things you can do with a stick that you just should never do with a blade (and visa versa) so I don't consider it a good idea to confuse the two.

There are some good training classes out there that can show you how to use a stick properly to take people down or hold them without doing too much damage. Most officers seem to prefer a tonfa but don't train properly with them IMHO. A straight club is far easier to use and less likely to be taken from you in hand to hand combat (in my experience).

The main thing to keep in mind is that good blade work is about being fast and smooth but you don't want too much power behind the strikes, while with sticks you want to generate a great deal of power. What people miss is that it takes very little pressure for a blade to do it's work.

Also you won't be arrested for having a 24" wooden dowl.

[VingDragon]

great, thanks for good advises, but I don't mix wingchun techniques with other martial arts like escrima, BJJ etc...

Im trying to find everything in system, so if we have a knives techniques why not to use a baton for training, too? Principles and main idea of using that kind of weapon is the same as BartChamDo, its a short range weapon, I think.

BTW, possess of gun doesnt mean, that I'm killer, right?

troubles will beggin when I'll start to hurt people. that's a problem and reason to arrest me.

[anerlich]

There are quite a few things you can do with a stick that you just should never do with a blade (and visa versa) so I don't consider it a good idea to confuse the two.

I dunno. Most Filipino systems use the same angles and similar drills for knife and stick. I'm not totally ignorant or inexperienced in this area either. One of the advantages often touted with FMA is that the same technical base can be adapted to any weapon, including empty hands.

I agree that the mechanics of cutting with a blade are different with using an impact weapon - indeed, Hock Hockheim warns of confusing the stick with a blade on one of his tapes - but I do not agree that you can't or shouldn't adapt a BJD or any other blade-oriented technical base to impact weapons.


BTW, possess of gun doesnt mean, that I'm killer, right?

Right. Doesn't mean you won't get arrested for possession thereof in a number of locales, though. Being an honourable outlaw is good in the movies but IMO less so in the real world.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"BTW, possess of gun doesnt mean, that I'm killer, right?...troubles will begin when I'll start to hurt people. that's a problem and reason to arrest me."

Derek:

Here in NYC...you have to have a license to own a gun...and a SPECIAL license to carry a gun in public.

And if you don't have the proper license(s)...

THEN THEY WILL ARREST YOU - whether or not you've hurt anybody or you haven't.

It doesn't matter...either way...they will arrest you if they find you with an unlicensed gun.

[VingDragon]

I know, I know - a gun possesing requires a license but dont know nothing about batons licences - especially for MA training

:D

[Tydive]

Anerlich, Good point about the Filipino MA's they do translate pretty well between stick, knife and hand. I was thinking more about seeing security people do stupid things with weapons that land them in jail or the hospital.

VD,
If you want to adapt the BJD to stick I suggest you get sticks about the same length as the weapons you are used to working with. Change any slashes to direct impacts. Change stabs to quick thrusts but only to soft tissue areas or control points. You may also need a hand guard on the weapon from what I have seen of BJD.

Depending on the law in your area you could be in serious trouble for using a stick, knife or gun. In most places if you escilate the level of force you better have a solid legal reason to do so.

[anerlich]

Tydive, fair enough.

VingDragon, things are no doubt different in NYC but here in Australia you basically are not allowed to carry ANY sort of weapon (stick, knife, gun, etc.) for self defence as a private citizen (cops, security personel and armed forces are different). You can only have guns for sporting purposes or for eradicating vermin in rural areas, and there are tight restrictions on how they are to be stored and transported.

People have been charged for carrying sharpened nail files. One woman who had been sexually assaulted and was terrified of any further attack was busted for carrying a home made chemical spray in your purse.

OTOH, if your tools of trade include knives, crowbars (you can really damage someone badly with one of those), hammers, chisels, etc., and you are attacked with them in hand, you are allowed to use them for defense provided the level of violence justifies an armed response (which, a local barrister told me is probably three unarmed attackers or one with a weapon, though there are no hard and fast rules).

Basically, if you have a reason to carry something other than for self defense and you use it to defend yourself at an appropriate level of response, the law will probably say you're OK, but if you don't have a reason to carry it around, or it has been specially modified to be used as a weapon, you're probably going to be charged if caught.

Right or wrong, that's the way it is here.

[VingDragon]

I think, the same rules and restrictions are everywhere, no matter what country

we are danger people itself, because of skills. Propably possesing of doble knives and sticks for training will be prohibited, too

last accident from queens - a week ago: a guy killed another one with a martial arts japanese sword

so what remains?

only weapon, to protect your-self I got, is
- hit of the seson:

a 'poo-freezer'

hahahaha :D

[Redd]

Originally posted by VingDragon
I think, the same rules and restrictions are everywhere, no matter what country

Uh, no.

[lawrenceofidaho]

Originally posted by VingDragon
I just think about to purchase something like that:

double batons as a substitute of double wingchun knives

what do you think, guys?

check attachment or click on link here:

http://img65.exs.cx/img65/5525/502840nd.th.jpg

I bought one of those things in the picture several years ago, and I really disliked it. The "trigger" on the handle is very large, and makes it difficult to get a good grip on the weapon. I found it very awkward to handle. IMO, a regular expandable baton is much better.

-Lawrence

[VingDragon]

lawrence:

thx for good advise, this is what I needed

someone said:
brainwashed...

I prefer better words: open minded person ;)

[Vajramusti]

VingDragon sez:

I prefer better words: open minded person
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((of course- there is no sensible reason for being uncivil.
Best to ignore the troller's remark))

[Ultimatewingchun]

Back to the original intent of this thread...

I have two pairs of poly carbonate tonfa (the exact same material that the NYPD use)...that I bought in a martial arts store some years ago. (You can still buy hard plastic tonfa now - but I haven't seen the poly carbonate for sale lately - other than in stores where the police can buy their equipment).

VERY HARD material...and since the shape of the tonfa (and the length) is similar to the Butterfly Swords - I have adapted the sword techniques to the tonfa.

It works well.

[Theorb]

mr. VD say:I prefer better words: open minded person


open mind good but not too open you brain fall out get dirty then you need wash before put back that how people get brainwash


:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[VingDragon]

HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO ALL!!! :D