Video Footage [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

martyg

12-21-2004, 01:32 PM

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
Hiya Marty!

How are you?

Hi Jim, pretty good. Just getting together money to get the old car fixed, it's on it's last leg. Your self?

Good point!

But! I think it is going to be hard enough to get people to participate so for now lets just send in any footage

"""EXCEPT FORMS"""

NO FOOTAGE OF FORMS DEMO"S PAAAALEASE!!!!!!

If all goes well we can can move forward with different ideas, like yours, and stuff in the future.

Just my thoughts for now which is based on the how difficult it is to get any large group of people to do anything together! hehe

Are you up for it?

Regards,

Sure, I'm up for it. I already have some "slide" sets taken from action (not choreographed) up on my site that I had been sharing.

I guess my next question is - what method of sharing the videos did you have in mind? Participants put it up on their own sites, is there someone offering to host, or did you have an actual physical video in mind?

Jim Roselando

12-21-2004, 01:43 PM

Hey Marty,

Hi Jim, pretty good. Just getting together money to get the old car fixed, it's on it's last leg. Your self?

Hangin in there. Holiday! Nothing like them! hehehe

Sure, I'm up for it. I already have some "slide" sets taken from action (not choreographed) up on my site that I had been sharing.

Ah! Thats cool! Didn't know that. Will check them out.

I guess my next question is - what method of sharing the videos did you have in mind? Participants put it up on their own sites, is there someone offering to host, or did you have an actual physical video in mind?

Someone said there is a site in the UK that will post the stuff for free. I have zero computer skills so I cant really help on that end but since there is a site that will already place it for us then why not start there.

Seems like the easiest option for now.

Take care!

Ernie

12-21-2004, 01:53 PM

"""EXCEPT FORMS"""

NO FOOTAGE OF FORMS DEMO"S PAAAALEASE!!!!!!

LOL perfect :D

well , i already share alot of video via email with people and i have been shooting video for the last few months [ crippled arm and all ]

but it's for my new website alot of reference material

so i'll pop stuff on the site

James , i have free sparring and timing light sparring stuff on video , if you really want to see me move , but the wing chun police will go nuts ;)

same with stick and knife sparring and helmet work

these are all methods i'm researching and playing around with for the pure fun of it

but again all the arm chair robots will flip there cpu's

so down the line maybe i'll just email you some clips

i also have alot of new Gary video he is helping me with my site as well so there will be a section for him

i have a digital camera that shots video with me at ever training session so there will be alot of stuff in the future

who do i want to see , i would love to see anyone in a live enviroment , working off a boxer or kick boxer

no need to go all out just to see how people transend the training system in to live application

that would be fun and honest , dudes doing chi sau are well dudes doing chi sau :eek:

planetwc

12-21-2004, 02:21 PM

you b@st*rd you have footage of you sparring etc and you have not hooked me up?

No egg nogg for you!

At best I'm going to have footage of either free for all chi-sao (not just poon sau rolling)--but no challenge match or hard core sparring stuff.

That would only happen when we finally meet and we get video of you handing me my b^tt. :D :p :D

Geezers gone wild sort of thang.

Just funnin. But hook me up on the training stuff man!

Ernie

12-21-2004, 02:26 PM

Originally posted by planetwc
you b@st*rd you have footage of you sparring etc and you have not hooked me up?

No egg nogg for you!

At best I'm going to have footage of either free for all chi-sao (not just poon sau rolling)--but no challenge match or hard core sparring stuff.

That would only happen when we finally meet and we get video of you handing me my b^tt. :D :p :D

Geezers gone wild sort of thang.

Just funnin. But hook me up on the training stuff man!

first of all who you calling a geezer i'm a very young slightly balding 37 year old with a bad arm :D

second , hey it might be me on by back looking up at you with a big $hit eating grin saying good job , now pick me up and buy me sushi :D

as for the video stuff man hit me on a email i might send a something your way ;)

old jong

12-21-2004, 02:26 PM

Yeah!...The Wing Chun "police(s)" and armchair robots would really like to see what our tough forum fighters can do!...Let us see at last that savage fighting vs agressive and resisting opponents in a live and dynamic environment.No more forum noise.Time to show the world the stuff and how special a breed you are.
We...(the wing chun "police(s)") and robotoids out there are ready to be amazed but we all have seen a lot of boxing,grappling and kickboxing already so try to surprise us a little bit!...;)

Ernie

12-21-2004, 02:29 PM

well officer Jong

i would love to well um,,,,,,,,,,,, see anything from the this is good wing chun camp

so that i might be saved from my wrong and evil ways :D

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D

edit in --- i got it i'll sit in my SLT for an hour and blow your socks off

old jong

12-21-2004, 02:33 PM

The "good wing chun camp" is not the one who started all this noise!...You (generic term) dressed the table!...;) Time to eat!...:D :D :D

martyg

12-21-2004, 02:42 PM

Originally posted by Ernie

edit in --- i got it i'll sit in my SLT for an hour and blow your socks off

Well you at least have to make it interesting then. ;) How about a rule that if people want to do forms they have to do it in interesting locations and such? I'd love to see someone do their SNT in hurricane winds, or at the running of the bulls in Barcelona. :D

Ernie

12-21-2004, 02:43 PM

Originally posted by old jong
The "good wing chun camp" is not the one who started all this noise!...You (generic term) dressed the table!...;) Time to eat!...:D :D :D

Not my table bro
i walk my own path owe nothing to no person , lineage,art or historical figure

i leave that for the crazy [ limited]people:p

but since this is a video sharing link since you opened your mouth i guess you will be contributing to express your views or are we just making noise again:rolleyes:

Ernie

12-21-2004, 02:45 PM

Originally posted by martyg
Well you at least have to make it interesting then. ;) How about a rule that if people want to do forms they have to do it in interesting locations and such? I'd love to see someone do their SNT in hurricane winds, or at the running of the bulls in Barcelona. :D

i would love to see it in the middle of a boxing ring while a boxer walks up and just knocks the dude out , how funny would that be :D

or for the adventure types on a surf board carving a big wave

martyg

12-21-2004, 02:48 PM

Originally posted by Ernie

or for the adventure types on a surf board carving a big wave

And just what did you think tan sao was for? :D

old jong

12-21-2004, 02:59 PM

Ernie!
It would be the perfect opportunity to show us how you actually "drop" people!...But I will respect your table choice.I will also respect any of our "fighters" if they produce a real fighting clip,but I doubt it will happen.The loudest they talk,you know!...
As for fighting,anybody can do it.The only thing not garranteed is winning.A martial art is a tool to be used if needed (But it can be a lot more!).I don't treat fighting lightly and I don't need to show off a big persona or ego character on the internet.
I'll shut my mouth now.

PaulH

12-21-2004, 03:03 PM

http://www.chez.com/baseweb/chisao.htm

If you like to spar, this could happen to you...
I posted this link of my old french coaches two years ago in this forum. Consider this my first offering! =)

Ernie

12-21-2004, 03:22 PM

Originally posted by old jong
Ernie!
It would be the perfect opportunity to show us how you actually "drop" people!...But I will respect your table choice.I will also respect any of our "fighters" if they produce a real fighting clip,but I doubt it will happen.The loudest they talk,you know!...
As for fighting,anybody can do it.The only thing not garranteed is winning.A martial art is a tool to be used if needed (But it can be a lot more!).I don't treat fighting lightly and I don't need to show off a big persona or ego character on the internet.
I'll shut my mouth now.

Droping people is no big deal any ounch or kick from any art or non art can do this , hell bumping your head into a wall could do it

being dropped is not a big deal either unless you have an ego , i still get dropped , locked , choked all the time

But jong i only care for training methods , funny i just got off the phone with Andrew S and like every conversation we have we share training methods and results , both for ourselves and the people we train

now mind you we are from different [ lineage :eek: ]

and have different idea's on how to use wing chun , we have sparred each other pretty hard and both been better for it

he has shown me things i use and i hope to have done the same for him

this is all about sharing and being honest , not some back seat arm chair know it all but never experienced much wing chun zombie that just sounds like a sifu says parrot [ i'm being general ]

If , Andrew , Dhira , You were prepping for a fight i would do everything in my power to help in some way , no lineage lines

or if some one needed to research something i do or have learned , dude i'm down to help no strings attached

this is how my world works

the fighter non fighter wing chun police world is just a Reality TV show i watch

a game of words and self importance :cool:

Ultimatewingchun

12-21-2004, 03:33 PM

"Yeah!...The Wing Chun "police(s)" and armchair robots would really like to see what our tough forum fighters can do!...Let us see at last that savage fighting vs agressive and resisting opponents in a live and dynamic environment.No more forum noise.Time to show the world the stuff and how special a breed you are." (OJ)

Oh yeah....I forgot to mention....

13) Michel (Old Jong)

Even if Number 13 is an unlucky number...

I still want to see what one of the most vocal members of the wing chun police can do!

Who knows....maybe I'll join the force.

Yeah....right! LOL.

PaulH

12-21-2004, 04:55 PM

I know that there have been some bad rep between our Tom and Jerry Camps, but I did see quite a few times on Ernie's private clips how he can drop people quite impressively! This thread is interesting and I look forward to see other people's stuffs! =D

Ernie

12-21-2004, 05:11 PM

Originally posted by PaulH
I know that there have been some bad rep between our Tom and Jerry Camps, but I did see quite a few times on Ernie's private clips how he can drop people quite impressively! This thread is interesting and I look forward to see other people's stuffs! =D

Hey Paul thanks for the kind words, but this really is not about me, I don't consider myself all billybada$$ or the keeper of the holy wing Chun grail

I just love to train and investigate

It really trips me out how finite some people get like what are they so worried about

Don’t see what the big deal is

I respect if you want to keep your stuff to yourself not everybody can look good on film, and wing chun is such a compact art and quick something sometimes felt more then seen

Even when I put my stuff out it’s more for the fun and excitement, my personal expression, how I use my training not how my training uses me

But if I were to demo something specific from the training system then I would have to be correct in my motion for that particular idea

If I’m just playing then that is what is represented

And if I am fighting then that will have a different look

As long as people can separate the different expressions

Personal use
Demo
Playing
Fighting

Then it can be fun

Problem happens when people have a limited filter and try and use one view to represent all things

PaulH

12-21-2004, 05:21 PM

I agree. I think the thread is more of a taste of the others. Hopefully, the clips will be fun, playful, and interesting. =)

old jong

12-21-2004, 05:47 PM

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
"Yeah!...The Wing Chun "police(s)" and armchair robots would really like to see what our tough forum fighters can do!...Let us see at last that savage fighting vs agressive and resisting opponents in a live and dynamic environment.No more forum noise.Time to show the world the stuff and how special a breed you are." (OJ)

Oh yeah....I forgot to mention....

13) Michel (Old Jong)

Even if Number 13 is an unlucky number...

I still want to see what one of the most vocal members of the wing chun police can do!

Who knows....maybe I'll join the force.

Yeah....right! LOL.

LOL! Why should I do something like that?...I'm not among those talking the big tough guy talk around here!...I'm not among those with something to prove around here!...Don't you think?...

BTW,I have my own reasons to be "vocal". As one of the most "vocal" of the tough talk category you must understand that this is not your personal forum...I hope!

Ultimatewingchun

12-21-2004, 07:57 PM

And because I recognize that it's not my own personal forum - I'm inviting you to participate in the video montage.

Come on now...don't be shy!

Jim Roselando

12-22-2004, 07:40 AM

Ok!

Is this everyone? Where are the rest of the KFO keyboard warriors? Tisk Tisk!

Newbies willing to participate:

Me, David W., Victor, Marty, Kieth

Others willing to send in more footage:

Ernie, James

Is everyone going to send in footage to that site in the UK for Jan 1, 2005?

Is that agreed upon?

Regards,

Knifefighter

12-22-2004, 11:20 AM

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
Someone from Leung Ting's group. Knifefighter
Umm... I'm not from this group.

Knifefighter

12-22-2004, 11:25 AM

Originally posted by old jong
The "good wing chun camp" is not the one who started all this noise!... Actually, the "good WC camp" were the ones who started the noise by yelling around about how the people in the kong sao video had crappy WC.

You were one of the most vocal.

Knifefighter

12-22-2004, 11:30 AM

Originally posted by Ernie
i have free sparring and timing light sparring stuff on video , if you really want to see me move , but the wing chun police will go nuts ;)

...but again all the arm chair robots will flip there cpu's Of course they will.
That's because you will actually be going hard.
Of course you won't see any of them posting any fighting clips.

Knifefighter

12-22-2004, 11:41 AM

My list (no forms or demos- hard sparring or fight footage only):

Sihing
Yong Chun
Matrix
Old Jong
Vajramusti
UltWC
Ali Hamad Rahim (both WC and BJJ footage)
Hendrik
Curtis
AZVingTsun

old jong

12-22-2004, 12:12 PM

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Actually, the "good WC camp" were the ones who started the noise by yelling around about how the people in the kong sao video had crappy WC.

You were one of the most vocal.

Hey! this argument was on a long time before these crappy clips were posted. In fact it was on before you started trolling here.

Knifefighter

12-22-2004, 12:22 PM

Originally posted by old jong
We...(the wing chun "police(s)") and robotoids out there are ready to be amazed but we all have seen a lot of boxing,grappling and kickboxing already so try to surprise us a little bit!...;) Sorry, OJ, that's about what your going to see when you see real fighting.

old jong

12-22-2004, 12:24 PM

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
And because I recognize that it's not my own personal forum - I'm inviting you to participate in the video montage.

Come on now...don't be shy!

You should try to find another argument twist.I never played internet warrior and I'm not about to begin.

old jong

12-22-2004, 12:43 PM

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Sorry, OJ, that's about what your going to see when you see real fighting.

You may not know KF but there is a "inside wing chun" layer of discussion going on between two wing chun philosophies on this forum.You mostly intrude in discussions like a fly in the soup.I may sometimes not agree with some of my wing chun fellows ideas on training or something but I respect them for being at their place witch is hard to say about yourself.

PaulH

12-22-2004, 01:13 PM

(Yim Wing Chun) pretends to examine the goods on the counter.

(The Non Wingchunist)
Why did you come back? To tell me
why you ran out on me at the railway
station?

(WC)
Yes.

(NWC)
Well, you can tell me now. I'm
reasonably sober.

(WC)
I don't think I will, Rick.

NWC
Why not? After all, I got stuck with
a railway ticket. I think I'm entitled
to know.

WC
Last night I saw what has happened
to you. The Rick I knew in Paris, I
could tell him. He'd understand. But
the one who looked at me with such
hatred... well, I'll be leaving
(Kwoonblanca) soon and we'll never see
each other again. We knew very little
about each other when we were in
love in Paris. If we leave it that
way, maybe we'll remember those days
and not (Kwoonblanca), not last night.

NWC
Did you run out on me because you
couldn't take it? Because you knew
what it would be like, hiding from
the police, running away all the
time?

WC
You can believe that if you want to.

NWC
Well, I'm not running away any more.
I'm settled now, above a (gym),
it's true, but... walk up a flight.
I'll be expecting you.

YWC turns her head away.

NWC
All the same, someday you'll lie to
(Sifu). You'll be there.

YWC
No, Rick. No, you see, (Wing Chun)
is ... and was, even when
I knew you in Paris.

She walks away into the cafe as Rick stares after her in
stunned disbelief.

old jong

12-22-2004, 01:16 PM

OK OK! here's a video! (http://s86982250.onlinehome.us/video/howmenfight.wmv)
It is really brutal

Thanks FngSaiYuk! ;)

Ernie

12-22-2004, 01:21 PM

you play the best woman i have ever seen true to old school chinese opera

were the man plays the female role

and might i add you look good in a dress :D

old jong

12-22-2004, 01:33 PM

And I thank you for your help!...How could I have done this without the expertise and tricks of the trade by a real pro in the crossdressing field. Thanks again Ernie!...
BTW,could you PM me on makup?...I need more of your experience in that area.I hate to look like a *****! :)

Jim Roselando

12-22-2004, 01:52 PM

Hello!

Guys Guys! Calm down! hehe

Knifefighter! Sorry! I thought you trained with Emin! My Bad! Oooops!

:)

Ok! So, is this on or not? Are we all going to post on Jan 1, 2005 or not?

Hmmmmmmmm?????

Enough mouth boxing! Lets get this rolling!

:D

Jim Roselando

12-22-2004, 03:28 PM

HELLOOOOOOO?

ANYONE HOME?

:confused:

PaulH

12-22-2004, 03:29 PM

Ernie

12-22-2004, 04:15 PM

Originally posted by old jong
And I thank you for your help!...How could I have done this without the expertise and tricks of the trade by a real pro in the crossdressing field. Thanks again Ernie!...
BTW,could you PM me on makup?...I need more of your experience in that area.I hate to look like a *****! :)

hey stay away from red blush it doesn't go well with pale leather :D

can i borrow your silk slippers ;)

old jong

12-22-2004, 04:57 PM

Anytimes Ernie as long as you give me the brand of your mascara.BTW,I was wondering if I should get a hair transplant.I would like to be able to grow a Boztepe poney tail like your's!...
Ciao Cherie!...:)

Knifefighter

12-22-2004, 06:32 PM

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
HELLOOOOOOO?

ANYONE HOME? I'm in.

Ultimatewingchun

12-22-2004, 08:25 PM

Jim:

One of my students informed me tonight that she knows how to take a video and transfer it by way of an attachment to an email that will open up on QUICKTIME...so I'll be filming some fresh stuff on video and sending it in...competitive contact sparring with protective gear...and might even include a MMA flavor to it...(ie. - Traditional Wing Chun mixed with Catch Wrestling)...takedowns...ground/standing controls...submission holds...coming off standup Wing Chun.

Can't promise that it will be sent in by January 1, 2005...but hopefully shortly thereafter.

Let me know by pm exactly where I have to send it to.

VingDragon

12-22-2004, 08:58 PM

Victor: do you mix Wing Chun with other MA techniques? like: BJJ, Grappling, Tae Kwon Do, Aikido etc? Just asking...

Ultimatewingchun

12-22-2004, 09:07 PM

Derek:

Yes...I mix Wing Chun primarily with Catch-as-catch-can Wrestling...

and also with a few Western boxing moves...and a few Muay-Thai knees and elbows and judo throws from the clinch.

But about 90% of the standup I do is Traditional Wing Chun.

Knifefighter

12-22-2004, 10:04 PM

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
But about 90% of the standup I do is Traditional Wing Chun. So, this will probably be the unveiling of the first footage of WC being used in a hard sparring/fighting situation. Will you be sparring it against your student who was the golden gloves boxer?

Ultimatewingchun

12-22-2004, 11:11 PM

Rich Alvarado was taught boxing by his cousin - who fought Golden Gloves.

But Rich hasn't been to class in about 8 months; however, he did email me recently to say that he'll be returning to class after the holidays.

If so...then I might tape something with him. As of right now, I'm planning to tape with two other guys - one of whom is my most senior student - and has a better overall fight game than Rich...although Rich is very good at what he does.

VingDragon

12-23-2004, 07:02 AM

I thought that Wing Chun is so universal method of fighting, that we dont need to mix anything into.

My example: Im trying to find everything in system without mixing. I do not practise BJJ, Muai Thai, Aikido etc...

I belive that Wing/Weng Chun includes all techniques.

couch

12-23-2004, 08:49 AM

Originally posted by VingDragon
I thought that Wing Chun is so universal method of fighting, that we dont need to mix anything into.

My example: Im trying to find everything in system without mixing. I do not practise BJJ, Muai Thai, Aikido etc...

I belive that Wing/Weng Chun includes all techniques.

And I for one think that's totally valid. I think that it's up to everyone to grow as an individual. I too think that the door of the kwoon should always be open to let light (other knowledge) shine in.

I don't think that Wing Chun has every technique in every other system (I don't know if that was what you were saying...), but I would like to believe and I would like to take the time to find the answers to defending other systems solely with my Wing Chun. Huge endeavor.

Sincerely,
Kenton/Couch

Knifefighter

12-23-2004, 10:47 AM

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
If so...then I might tape something with him. As of right now, I'm planning to tape with two other guys - one of whom is my most senior student - and has a better overall fight game than Rich...although Rich is very good at what he does. So, it will be WC vs. WC? If that is the case, I guess that's better than nothing. However, what I would like to see from somebody is WC against a halfway skilled boxer or Muay Thai guy. If someone can pull that off, then I will be sold on the effectiveness of the system.

Knifefighter

12-23-2004, 10:49 AM

Originally posted by VingDragon
.I belive that Wing/Weng Chun includes all techniques. Somebody's been brainwashed.

Vajramusti

12-23-2004, 11:52 AM

then I will be sold on the effectiveness of the system.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Trolls again. Wing chun is not a collection of techniques and not merely theory. It has been tried and continues to evolve in good hands. All skeptics should do mma zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Jim Roselando

12-23-2004, 12:55 PM

Hey Joy!

Are you going to participate in the Video Clip event?

It would be nice if more of the senior members of this board would be willing to!

It will give us all a lot to chit chat about and fun to see everyone in action a bit!

:)

Knifefighter

12-23-2004, 05:52 PM

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
Are you going to participate in the Video Clip event? Of course he's not. That would expose him.

Vajramusti

12-23-2004, 09:30 PM

trolling knifefighter sez:

Of course he's not. That would expose him.

(((Exposing oneself to a juvenile is against the law and all morality))

Knifefighter

12-24-2004, 11:58 AM

BTW, here's the link to the site where you can send your stuff.

www.wck-media.co.uk/

This should be interesting.

Matrix

12-24-2004, 01:45 PM

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Of course he's not. That would expose him. Utter nonsense !! :rolleyes:

Knifefighter

12-27-2004, 10:56 AM

Originally posted by Matrix
Utter nonsense Then I guess we can eagerly await both his and your footage.

SAAMAG

12-28-2004, 09:16 PM

Is this going to be a thread full of people talking about their prospective footage or one with footage?

Ultimatewingchun

12-28-2004, 09:28 PM

Originally posted by Vankuen
Is this going to be a thread full of people talking about their prospective footage or one with footage?

Ha,ha,Ha,ha,Ha,ha.

Jim Roselando

12-29-2004, 03:52 AM

Hello,

When is everyone going to send in something?

Pick a date and we can all send it in the same time. Makes for lots of footage to check out and all who said they will participate can do it together.

Thoughts?

Regards,

sihing

12-29-2004, 10:18 AM

Just one piece of advice, the place that will take the clips, www.wck-media.co.uk his name is Garry Shoot and sometimes his email inbox is full so if you email him the clips all at once they may not all get in. I can email him for us and let him know that lots of clips will be coming his way soon...

James

Knifefighter

12-30-2004, 06:53 PM

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
When is everyone going to send in something?
Sent mine in.

Ultimatewingchun

12-30-2004, 09:01 PM

Something just ocurred to me.

Will this website put up KF's (Dale Frank's) video?

I assume he didn't label it as Wing Chun...but it's a WC website.

Do you know the answer to that one, Jim Roselando?

sihing

12-30-2004, 11:20 PM

I doubt it, since it is a listing of Wing Chun video's from different lines and families, so anything from Dale, since he is not a WC stylist would not be put on the site, I assume anyways.

James

Nick Forrer

12-31-2004, 02:29 AM

Can someone email him and ask him to put dales clip up. He can always take it down after a bit.

Ultimatewingchun

12-31-2004, 11:50 AM

Or Dale could just post it here.

Phil Redmond

12-31-2004, 06:29 PM

Since I consider myself a martial artist more than a WC person I'll put up any good MA footage. Just email the clip to sifupr@wingchunkwoon.com
PR

Phil Redmond

01-01-2005, 10:33 AM

Hi All. I got this from Van Kuen

>>"I've got this vid of me from like 00-01' messing around with the dummy, not exactly textbook wing chun, more like rumble in the bronx type stuff. I found some other vids as well from when I was training a couple guys while I was stationed in Florida (during that same time frame). Let me know if you'd be willing to post those up
for me as well. Thanks Sifu R'
Van(Kuen)"<<

Hey Van, I hope you didn't mind my changing the name of your mpeg from playing with the "wood" (muk) to playing with the "jong". I've had many Chinese friends laugh when they heard about Wing Chun people playing with the wood. I've used jong ever since. ;) Here's your mpeg.
http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/playing_with_the_jong.mpg
What branch of the service are/were you in?
PR

Phil Redmond

01-01-2005, 04:48 PM

More from Vankuen.
PR
http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/kwansau_to_gamda_to_jing_geuk.mpg

http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/lop_to_bong_da_to_punches.mpg

Knifefighter

01-02-2005, 10:51 PM

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Or Dale could just post it here. You can't just "post" a video clip. You have to have a server. If they don't post my clips, I'll send them to Phil.

Phil Redmond

01-03-2005, 06:10 AM

Originally posted by Knifefighter
You can't just "post" a video clip. You have to have a server. If they don't post my clips, I'll send them to Phil.
You know I'll post your clips :) Garry may take a while to post them. He's a pretty busy guy.
PR

Knifefighter

01-03-2005, 08:48 PM

Got an e-mail from Garry. He said he would post my fight clips in the "general" section. I've sent him three and will send one more.

Um... where are all the other talkers... er, I mean fighters?

Ultimatewingchun

01-03-2005, 09:49 PM

Spoke to my student tonight who has the cameras and all other necessary equipment - we might try to film something this coming Saturday.

SAAMAG

01-03-2005, 09:52 PM

I sent a couple in already...I will try to get more as time goes on....broken wrist eliminates a lot of the hard stuff.

Jim Roselando

01-04-2005, 06:01 AM

Hello,

Um... where are all the other talkers... er,

Ok! Been away from the computer over the holidays! Will send something! Actually! Its the only thing I have so take it or leave it! hehehe

I mean fighters?

C'mon man! Did you really expect them to send in footage? Look how many people are on this board and the ultra small % that are even willing to even "discuss" the possibility of sending in footage! Most wont even talk about the possiblity! Its laughable but the one thing I think should happen is all the "keyboard warriors" that run around telling everyone how nobody knows how to fight should give it a break as they had their chance to show everyone and yet still refuse! Just my opinion!

Will post it to him today!

Regards,

Phil Redmond

01-04-2005, 12:53 PM

Jim, if your clip isn't over 10MB send it to:
sifupr@wingchunkwoon.com and I'll have it up in a day guaranteed. I've just started a gmail account so I'll have up to 1GB storage. Then the size of the clip won't matter much.
PR

Jim Roselando

01-04-2005, 01:14 PM

Hey Phil!

Sent you an e-mail!

Hit me back!

Thanks!

VingDragon

01-04-2005, 01:35 PM

hi, here is a link to clip I put today on my website. it is wengchun sticky hands playing but I call that light sparring :D

light sparring (http://photos.imageevent.com/vingdragon/vid/light.wmv)

more on www.imageevent.com/vingdragon

:D

PS. I had to edit it, cause material is very big (transfer limit)

Phil Redmond

01-04-2005, 03:18 PM

"Ok! Its a small clip but its all I have so here is a description!
Basically I am doing some "common" straight body moves out of the Pin Sun 1st stage Circle Chi Sao. Its about 3 moves and only 15 seconds at best. Its not PSWC movement or action. I was just playing around with someone and a student had a camera rolling!"
http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/Movieedit3.avi

Jim Roselando

01-04-2005, 03:41 PM

Hi,

Thanks for the assistance Phil!

U Da Man!

:)

VingDragon

01-04-2005, 05:30 PM

Jim, thanks for sharing

good video and nice to see you in that clip,

more please

greetings

Ving

yellowpikachu

01-04-2005, 07:35 PM

Originally posted by VingDragon
hi, here is a link to clip I put today on my website. it is wengchun sticky hands playing but I call that light sparring :D

light sparring (http://photos.imageevent.com/vingdragon/vid/light.wmv)

more on www.imageevent.com/vingdragon

:D

PS. I had to edit it, cause material is very big (transfer limit)

Great sharing.

a question, if there is one important thing. what do you think your opponent has to have/train/do to be able to par with you?

thanks

VingDragon

01-04-2005, 08:00 PM

for me - it doesn't matter :D - experienced or not

I like to train/spar/exchange knowledge with anyone who wants to do the same with me;

Im open minded person and I don't bite ;)

why you asking :confused:

yellowpikachu

01-04-2005, 10:55 PM

Originally posted by VingDragon

why you asking :confused:

I am just curious on how you look at things.

yellowpikachu

01-05-2005, 11:23 AM

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
More from Vankuen.
PR
http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/kwansau_to_gamda_to_jing_geuk.mpg

http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/lop_to_bong_da_to_punches.mpg

Phil,

Same question. if there is one important thing. what do you think the gentlemen in black has to have/train/do to be able to par with the gentle men in white?

Jim Roselando

01-05-2005, 12:48 PM

Hello,

Well, so far we have what? 2 People who were willing to send in some stuff to share? Ugggg!

Well, should we lead by example and discuss the what we see and use it as a tool to better ourselves and for discussion?

:confused:

Regards,

Ernie

01-05-2005, 12:51 PM

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
Hello,

Well, so far we have what? 2 People who were willing to send in some stuff to share? Ugggg!

Well, should we lead by example and discuss the what we see and use it as a tool to better ourselves and for discussion?

:confused:

Regards,

my stuff will go up when my new site is ready , and i have sent clips to a few people

but need to lay low and fix the broken parts for now :mad:

will be having a large group sparring day in a month or so i will film it and see if anything is worth posting :D

yellowpikachu

01-05-2005, 12:51 PM

Jim Roselando

01-05-2005, 12:59 PM

Hey Ernie!

You have already shared a lot so you get a free pass!

Lets all talk about what we see from the rest of us!

We have me, ving & van that sent stuff in!

C'mon guys! Lets chat!

Regards,

Knifefighter

01-05-2005, 08:27 PM

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
We have me, ving & van that sent stuff in!

C'mon guys! Lets chat! So far, it's the same old stuff.
Playing chi sao "steering wheel games" against an unresisiting opponent.
Slappy backhanded hits that wouldn't do much in a real fighting environment.
Theoretical demonstrations of how fighting "should" look.

SAAMAG

01-05-2005, 09:53 PM

Just something to point out here on behalf of the people that have posted...

we at least posted something before talking....I suggest anyone who wants to critic...do the same. That's what this thread is all about.

Now Jim, I and Ving, have all stated that these clips were just things that we were messing around with at the time the camera was on...this isn't indicitive of one's all out potential. My last session progressed to an all out sparring match...bumps, bruises, cuts and all. We all had our times getting the good hits...we all had our times being hit. I doubt anyone is going to have clips of every fight session (or any for some)...give it some time...and POST something of your own before talking shiet.

Oh and one more thing knifey, no one said this is how fights "should" look, if anything...there is no "look" for a fight...it is what it is. Depending on skill levels of each individual, the fight can "look" many different ways. Besides none of the clips entered thus far have been said to be "fight" clips...so let's keep it in perspective.

VingDragon

01-05-2005, 10:19 PM

c'mon guys, we training wing/wengchun style. do you expect something different? a real fight caught on tape? even if, I don't think so any of us will spread it to internet.

who of you is a real street fighter? who fights everyday? who will be fight "on real" against his own students or friends and finally will record it?

I think a lot of you wants to see a diferences in systems, etc...

some of masters have "secrets" - so we'll never see it on video
some of them are shy or dont want to be fameus

finally, how many of us can applicate system techniques in a real fight situation?

:rolleyes:

ps. stop critisize, share your videos

Ultimatewingchun

01-05-2005, 10:48 PM

Hey Dale...

Maybe it's time to send your clips to Phil Redmond?

Garry hasn't posted them on the other website.

Phil Redmond

01-05-2005, 11:36 PM

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Hey Dale...

Maybe it's time to send your clips to Phil Redmond?

Garry hasn't posted them on the other website.
Yup, of cousre we should all appreciate what Garry is doing but he's pretty busy. It took him a while to correct the dates on some of the William Cheung footage I sent him. I can have a clip up in a day.
PR

Ernie

01-06-2005, 12:32 AM

funny i feel we will see good things from Dale

i don't think there will be any WC but that's not his game

he is in shape and a fighter with a good history and track record

so i'm sure we will some standing and ground work

no different then any good MMA guy

nothing new under the sun crosses hooks clinch , knees elbows may be a thigh kick

all the norm

but then again maybe he is tricking us all and he will show us video of him doing 1 hour of SLT :D

Matrix

01-06-2005, 06:12 AM

Ernie,

I too am expecting good things from Dale.
His previous comments seem to be meant to bait a knee-jerk response from others. Van and Ving seem to be willing to comply.

He must feel that he has something good to offer.
Should be interesting...........

Jim Roselando

01-06-2005, 06:56 AM

Dale,

How many people chat on this WC forum? LOTS! Right?

How many were willing to send in anything or show anything?

2-3!

So far your not one of those 2-3!

Yes! Its not fighting we are showing and we all know that! BUT! Its what we have and we shared it! Could have been worst right? We could have sent more footage of forms! (or no footage at all)

:D

So, those who sent in stuff or have stuff already posted on the net have every right to comment but those who have not should avoid commenting as they are not part of this IMO!

Send Phil a clip and he will have it up ASAP!

Look forward to seeing you!

Regards,

Nick Forrer

01-06-2005, 07:36 AM

I dont have a digital camera but ill try and do something this Weekend

Knifefighter

01-06-2005, 09:54 AM

Originally posted by Vankuen

Now Jim, I and Ving, have all stated that these clips were just things that we were messing around with at the time the camera was on...this isn't indicitive of one's all out potential. My last session progressed to an all out sparring match...bumps, bruises, cuts and all. We all had our times getting the good hits...we all had our times being hit. I doubt anyone is going to have clips of every fight session (or any for some)...give it some time...and POST something of your own before talking shiet.

Oh and one more thing knifey, no one said this is how fights "should" look, if anything...there is no "look" for a fight...it is what it is. Depending on skill levels of each individual, the fight can "look" many different ways. Besides none of the clips entered thus far have been said to be "fight" clips...so let's keep it in perspective. The whole idea of the videos is to show what you can do under pressure, not what you can do with a cooperative opponent. Just playing with a cooperative training partner shows nothing other than how fighting is "supposed" to be.

Knifefighter

01-06-2005, 09:57 AM

Originally posted by VingDragon
c'mon guys, we training wing/wengchun style. do you expect something different? a real fight caught on tape? No, but at least something along the lines of the intensity of the "kong sao" clips that so many people were criticizing as bad examples of WC fighting ability.

Knifefighter

01-06-2005, 10:06 AM

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Yup, of cousre we should all appreciate what Garry is doing but he's pretty busy. It took him a while to correct the dates on some of the William Cheung footage I sent him. I can have a clip up in a day.
PR I'll get to work on sending the clips to you.

Knifefighter

01-06-2005, 10:28 AM

Originally posted by VingDragon
finally, how many of us can applicate system techniques in a real fight situation? Isn't the whole idea of training in a combative MA system supposed to be to be able to use what you are practicing in a real situation?

Jim Roselando

01-06-2005, 10:34 AM

Knifefighter,

Send in a clip of you doing anything!

Hows that for a start?

It shouldn't be too hard. Just e-mail Phil and attach it. It will only take a few seconds!

Remember! This whole idea is about sharing and learning. If it turns out we can make this work then we can all do more stuff and send it in. For now! Send what you have except forms. Right now this idea is not working? Why? Nobody is participating! You have to start somewhere! I said that from the start!

Regards,

Knifefighter

01-06-2005, 11:37 AM

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
It shouldn't be too hard. Just e-mail Phil and attach it. It will only take a few seconds! Wrong!!! If it were just that simple. A 15 second clip takes me 45 minutes to attach and send. So far, I've sent two, but he can't open them because they are Mac Movie Player clips and don't have extensions.

Jim Roselando

01-06-2005, 12:06 PM

K.F.,

Wrong!!! If it were just that simple. A 15 second clip takes me 45 minutes to attach and send. So far, I've sent two, but he can't open them because they are Mac Movie Player clips and don't have extensions.

Ok! Then see if some of the computer masters that are on this board can assist. Phil? Its 05 and I am sure it can be done. Especially since we have been talking about doing this for weeks now.

Lets get this rolling!

Then we can see you do something. (and maybe others will join in) """DOUBT IT THO""" So far all of the people on the KFO board who tell everyone how they cannot fight or do WCK have yet to send in anything. I really really want to see some of the fighters demo's their WCK and see how it looks. I dont care what they are doing either! Someone can tell if they have decent structure or balance or move decent just from watching a little clip!

Its time for those who talk the game to show some of their game IMO. Especially since they are just soooooo vocal about telling everyone they dont know functional WCK.

Just my opinion!

Regards,

Shadowboxer

01-06-2005, 12:29 PM

KF,

You can FTP your clips to the host site(s) or you can burn them to a CD and send it, next day air if you wish. If your files do not have extensions, they will be very difficult to open if not impossible. If you are a Mac user save your file as (.mov) . The Quicktime player is free and the vids are excellent quality. Find somewhere with a fast connection so it doesn't take you 45 minutes for a 15 sec clip if you are still going to try to email them.

Jim Roselando

01-06-2005, 12:32 PM

There ya go!

Thanks Shadowboxer!

Phil Redmond

01-06-2005, 02:08 PM

Originally posted by Knifefighter
I'll get to work on sending the clips to you.
I got your clips but I can't open them. Can you make them mpegs?
PR

Ernie

01-06-2005, 02:12 PM

send them to me i will convert them and send them back

planetwc

01-06-2005, 02:52 PM

Phil,

Just rename them to have a .mov extenstion to their file name.
If you have quicktime on your pc they should open.

I think windows media player should open them as well at that point.

If you are running windows xp on your machine, you may have it configured not to show file extentions (which is what windows uses to determine the kind of file it is, and thereby what program to launch when you click on it).

To see the file types in windows.

1. Save the file to a folder.
2. Open the folder.
3. On the Folder menu, select Tools->Folder Options...
4. On Folder options dialog, click the tab View.
5. in the View tab, uncheck "Hide extentions for known file types."

Now you should be able to see what the extension (if any) the file has.
If Dale sent you a quicktime file, it should have .mov on it.

If so, you can just slam the file up to your webserver and we can all download it and view it.

If YOU don't have quicktime you can get it from Apple's website here:

Quicktime Standalone (no iTunes) (http://www.apple.com/quicktime/download/standalone/)

Let me know if you have other problems, or what the file type is for the files.

Phil Redmond

01-06-2005, 02:56 PM

Originally posted by Ernie
send them to me i will convert them and send them back
I'll send them right away. I keep getting a message that reads. Quicktime doesn't recognized this file or something like that. He said they were MacIntosh clips. I'm not a computer guy so don't laugh at me. :) I was getting really frustrated. Thanks for the offer. Please send any more clips to: sifupr@gmail.com
I have 1GB of space there.
PR

Phil Redmond

01-06-2005, 03:05 PM

Ernie,
I sent the cilps from my gmail account. Please send them back there. sifupr@gmail.com
PR

Ernie

01-06-2005, 03:44 PM

not looking good
tried to open it in all my programs and nothing i'll try changing the ext. see what happens

Phil Redmond

01-06-2005, 03:50 PM

Originally posted by Ernie
not looking good
tried to open it in all my programs and nothing i'll try changing the ext. see what happens
Whew, that's a relief. I thought it was me.
PR

Ernie

01-06-2005, 03:57 PM

nope they show up as DAT files
if they are mprg i can just change the ext.
tried all my converting programs
premiere , vegas,discreet
nothing

sorry :(

dale hit me up maybe i can send you a program to edit and or convert the files

i'm on pc

planetwc

01-06-2005, 04:14 PM

If we can find out what Dale used to create the files I can probably deal with them if all else fails.

Shadowboxer

01-06-2005, 04:18 PM

Strange...as I know it, DAT stands for Digital Audio Tape.

KF, can you make a Quicktime movie (.MOV) ? You should be able to since it's a Mac's native format.

Phil Redmond

01-06-2005, 04:59 PM

Originally posted by Ernie
nope they show up as DAT files
if they are mprg i can just change the ext.
tried all my converting programs
premiere , vegas,discreet
nothing
sorry :(
dale hit me up maybe i can send you a program to edit and or convert the files
i'm on pc
What bugs me is that I feel that Dale's clips are probably going to show some realistic stuff :) I can't wait to see them.
PR

Ernie

01-06-2005, 05:10 PM

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
What bugs me is that I feel that Dale's clips are probably going to show some realistic stuff :) I can't wait to see them.
PR

no doubt !

But all the chi sau geeks will just go blah blah blah
And in there little pre conceived what a ''fight ''is supposed to look like, yet they themselves can in no way shape or form produce the results of there own mental imagine
Will try and superimpose their robotic picture of prodigal son

And nit pic away,

I can just see it now ''well if that was me I would have used my lan sau from chum kui to crate space and then followed up with my proper rooted horse and then and then and then terminated my foe ''
:D :D :D
oops was that to harsh ha ha ha ha

Knifefighter

01-06-2005, 05:48 PM

Originally posted by planetwc
If we can find out what Dale used to create the files I can probably deal with them if all else fails. I captured them from videotape using a program called Dazzle VideoImpression.

Knifefighter

01-06-2005, 05:50 PM

Originally posted by Shadowboxer
Strange...as I know it, DAT stands for Digital Audio Tape.

KF, can you make a Quicktime movie (.MOV) ? You should be able to since it's a Mac's native format. When I play them on my computer, Quicktime runs them. My folder lists them as MoviePlayer movies.

Ernie

01-06-2005, 05:51 PM

then you will need to convert them this should also shrink the size

i don't know mac's
but i'm sure there some one out there that can point you in the right direction

hey do you have any stick fighting stuff would be cool to peep that out

Ernie

01-06-2005, 05:55 PM

http://www.freedownloadscenter.com/Multimedia_and_Graphics/Video_and_Animation_Tools/DivX_Video_Bundle_for_Mac_OSX.html

Phil Redmond

01-06-2005, 06:00 PM

Originally posted by Knifefighter
When I play them on my computer, Quicktime runs them. My folder lists them as MoviePlayer movies.
My Quicktime won't run them. I tried on two different computers.
PR

Matrix

01-06-2005, 07:19 PM

Originally posted by Knifefighter
When I play them on my computer, Quicktime runs them. My folder lists them as MoviePlayer movies. What file format did you save them as, when you captured them with Dazzle? Also, which compression codec did you use?

Matrix

01-06-2005, 07:22 PM

Originally posted by Shadowboxer
Strange...as I know it, DAT stands for Digital Audio Tape. Yes it can, but in this case it's just a data file. Outlook sends .dat files all the time in such files as winmail.dat.

Shadowboxer

01-07-2005, 09:37 AM

Did a quick search. Looks like Pinnacle bought Dazzle. I couldn't find anything about "Dazzle Video Impression".

KF, do you still have Dazzle's documentation? Anything about what formats you can encode to or creating PC compatible files?

Ultimatewingchun

01-07-2005, 01:35 PM

Bad news:

Spoke to my student, Janine, this morning. She's the one with all the cameras and equipment - her uncle is terminally ill and she won't make it to sparring class tomorrow...she's going to the hospital.

Good news:

My student Rich Alvarado, the one who's trained in boxing, will start coming back to class as of Monday (he's been absent for many months)...so next Saturday would be his first sparring class anyway.

So we're gonna try to film next Saturday, January 15th.

After that - all the video transfer stuff to the internet should be quick and easy...Janine actually administers over an entire film production department at Staten Island University.

AmanuJRY

01-07-2005, 05:18 PM

Originally posted by Shadowboxer
Did a quick search. Looks like Pinnacle bought Dazzle. I couldn't find anything about "Dazzle Video Impression".

KF, do you still have Dazzle's documentation? Anything about what formats you can encode to or creating PC compatible files?

Chances are that Dale sent the propriatary video capture files from dazzle as opposed to publishing them as .mpeg's and then sending them.

Dale,

You probably need to go into the software that you used to capture the video open the files and then 'save as' an .mpeg/.mov/.avi or whatever in order to publish them as such and send them out accordingly.

;)

Knifefighter

01-07-2005, 06:09 PM

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
You probably need to go into the software that you used to capture the video open the files and then 'save as' an .mpeg/.mov/.avi or whatever in order to publish them as such and send them out accordingly.I tried that. It didn't work either.

Knifefighter

01-07-2005, 07:02 PM

Until I figure the video thing out, I'll do this:

I've captured a series of stills from my clips. They are pretty representative of what is happening on the clips.

CLOSING TO THE CLINCH (http://fitech3000.tripod.com/clinch.html)
SACRIFICE TAKEDOWN (http://fitech3000.tripod.com/takedwn.html)
MOUNT & POUND (http://fitech3000.tripod.com/mount.html)
FINISH WITH A KEYLOCK (http://fitech3000.tripod.com/finish.html)

Ernie

01-07-2005, 07:43 PM

hey your a little guy:D

Phil Redmond

01-07-2005, 08:47 PM

KPM

01-08-2005, 06:04 AM

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Until I figure the video thing out, I'll do this:

I've captured a series of stills from my clips. They are pretty representative of what is happening on the clips.

CLOSING TO THE CLINCH (http://fitech3000.tripod.com/clinch.html)
SACRIFICE TAKEDOWN (http://fitech3000.tripod.com/takedwn.html)
MOUNT & POUND (http://fitech3000.tripod.com/mount.html)
FINISH WITH A KEYLOCK (http://fitech3000.tripod.com/finish.html)

---Looks good! Pretty standard MMA fare. But here I was thinking you were a WCK guy! I thought the goal was to show that WCK was more than just "patty-cakes chi sau." You've been criticising people and you don't even do WCK! Why do you care?

Keith

Nick Forrer

01-08-2005, 12:54 PM

Hello all. I got a friend to take some video footage today of me sparring (without gear). He said he'd try and digitise it and send it to me but it may take a bit of time (hes just learning the ropes at the moment). Ill post it when I get it.

Knifefighter

01-09-2005, 08:40 PM

Originally posted by KPM
---Looks good! Pretty standard MMA fare. But here I was thinking you were a WCK guy! I thought the goal was to show that WCK was more than just "patty-cakes chi sau." You've been criticising people and you don't even do WCK! Why do you care? I've always said I was a MMA guy. The goal of the videos is to show that what you practice can be used when you fight against an opponent who is actually fighting back. My point is that MMA fighters use of techniques in their fights is almost exactly used the same way it is in training. On the other hand, the majority of WC techniques that are practiced are almost never used when fighting.

Why do I care? I don't, really, rather than just for arguments sake. Just playing the devil's advocate.

Jim Roselando

01-10-2005, 07:44 AM

Dale,

I really appreciate what you are doing in those stills. Standard MMA. I did BJJ and Sambo for a while and think MMA is an effective vehicle for self defense.

I didn't realize you dont practice WCK? Funny but I really thought you did! I didn't know that! What I really dont get is how someone that does not practice WCK can hang around a WCK forum and comment on WCK all the time? Are you sure you dont like this art but because your are a MMA guy you feel the need to tell everyone its not very good!

hehehe

Wouldn't a MMA forum be more suitable for you? Lots more to chat about with your MMA bro's.

Regards,

Sandman2[Wing Chun]

01-10-2005, 08:44 AM

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
Wouldn't a MMA forum be more suitable for you? Lots more to chat about with your MMA bro's.

You know, I've never understood why people have a problem with non-wc'ers scrutinizing what we do. Even if you're not training for a competetive fight circuit of this sort, I'd imagine you're much more likely to run into someone who fights in a MMA vein then you are a seasoned WC practicioner. Shouldn't you be prepared for guys like this? And if you are, what's wrong with some scrutinty?

Knifefighter,
Are you fighting bare knuckle in those stills?

old jong

01-10-2005, 10:24 AM

Originally posted by Knifefighter

Why do I care? I don't, really, rather than just for arguments sake. Just playing the devil's advocate.

Funny because you always mentioned you are here because you enjoy watching a good trainwreck!...;)
But anyway: I agree with our moderator about the right to scrutiny but I doubt the educational value of reading some posts for possible future encounters with MMA guys.There are better sources.Practice is better.
Also: There is a line between "scrutiny" and trolling.This line is often crossed.Members may feel that and have a legitimate right to point that out.

Jim Roselando

01-10-2005, 02:03 PM

Sandman!

You know, I've never understood why people have a problem with non-wc'ers scrutinizing what we do.

There is nothing wrong with it and it very good for us but what good is it if we dont really add anything to the discussions? What if we went on a Taiji site and starting saying stuff like this but replace WC with Taiji or any other art:

Maybe the fact that no one seems to be able to fight halfway decently using WC shows the inherent weakness in the system?

Now, we can all learn from each other but unfortunately a lot of discussion has been replaced with:

You dont know how to train, The system is weak, You cant swim, I know how to fight, this or that.

What good does this do for any of us? NADA! Maybe its ok to give a bit of a wake up call but then it comes time to discuss a productive solution or ideas to help one progress. If the answer is get out there and Spar more (which is what many refer to as fight) then that is fine but if that was it then conversation would be pretty sad right? I tried to use this Video idea as a "productive" way to help us all grow and learn from each other but it has not turned out that well because NOBODY is willing to share or place themselves on the chop block for discussion. Not even the "so-called" fighters who look down on everyone! Then! The couple (yes "3 out of 100's) that do end up being told how whats being shown is not worth talking about or its the same old.

Even if you're not training for a competetive fight circuit of this sort, I'd imagine you're much more likely to run into someone who fights in a MMA vein then you are a seasoned WC practicioner. Shouldn't you be prepared for guys like this? And if you are, what's wrong with some scrutinty?

There is nothing wrong with it at all and yes! We are more likely to face someone who is closer to a boxing based artist versus anythign else in the street but lets really take a hard look at what I am going to ask everyone now! Ready!

WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME ANYONE HAS SEEN A MARTIAL ARTIST IN A FIGHT? HMMMMM?

Its good to train against all kinds of stuff and people but in the end its up to us to do the hard work and just telling people something is not good or effective is not going to do any good for anyone unless a "productive" discussion is part of it IMO.

Old Jong said;

Also: There is a line between "scrutiny" and trolling.This line is often crossed.

I believe its crossed only when people do not add anything productive to help try an help with the things they feel are poor.

Regards,

Sandman2[Wing Chun]

01-10-2005, 03:37 PM

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
Sandman!

You know, I've never understood why people have a problem with non-wc'ers scrutinizing what we do.

There is nothing wrong with it and it very good for us but what good is it if we dont really add anything to the discussions? What if we went on a Taiji site and starting saying stuff like this but replace WC with Taiji or any other art:

This is a value judgement, the idea of whether or not something is being added to the discussion. As such, I think it would behoove us all to not run people off just becuase they don't fit our value statement on what is or isn't "adding to the discussion". or else instead of replacing WC with Taiji, you might as well replace it with Ving Tzun, and have the same "we dont' want to talk about what you want to talk about" discussion. My advice is that if you don't like a particular thread, just don't bother posting on it or following it.

Maybe the fact that no one seems to be able to fight halfway decently using WC shows the inherent weakness in the system?

Now, we can all learn from each other but unfortunately a lot of discussion has been replaced with:

You dont know how to train, The system is weak, You cant swim, I know how to fight, this or that.

What good does this do for any of us? NADA! Maybe its ok to give a bit of a wake up call but then it comes time to discuss a productive solution or ideas to help one progress. If the answer is get out there and Spar more (which is what many refer to as fight) then that is fine but if that was it then conversation would be pretty sad right? I tried to use this Video idea as a "productive" way to help us all grow and learn from each other but it has not turned out that well because NOBODY is willing to share or place themselves on the chop block for discussion. Not even the "so-called" fighters who look down on everyone! Then! The couple (yes "3 out of 100's) that do end up being told how whats being shown is not worth talking about or its the same old.

And telling someone to go back to their MMA forum helps this how?

Even if you're not training for a competetive fight circuit of this sort, I'd imagine you're much more likely to run into someone who fights in a MMA vein then you are a seasoned WC practicioner. Shouldn't you be prepared for guys like this? And if you are, what's wrong with some scrutinty?

There is nothing wrong with it at all and yes! We are more likely to face someone who is closer to a boxing based artist versus anythign else in the street but lets really take a hard look at what I am going to ask everyone now! Ready!

WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME ANYONE HAS SEEN A MARTIAL ARTIST IN A FIGHT? HMMMMM?

I work nights as a bouncer at a violent, hip-hop nightclub. A few of the bouncers have studied something, and there's 1-3 fights there in an evening, on average, as we pack in 2000 people at max capacity. So I see them, have been in them, and have seen others in them pretty regularly. It's interesting to see how the specifics of the environment change what people do. There are two guys there that study BJJ, but they avoid the ground at all cost due to the sheer amount of broken glass everywhere ($1.69 longnecks every thursday). Both of them are extremely good at standing locks and chokes.

Its good to train against all kinds of stuff and people but in the end its up to us to do the hard work and just telling people something is not good or effective is not going to do any good for anyone unless a "productive" discussion is part of it IMO.

I agree, but once again, what is or isn't considered "productive" is a value judgement. If you don't feel a conversation is productive, insert something that you feel is or just choose not to participate. no reason to bar others from the discussion.

Old Jong said;

Also: There is a line between "scrutiny" and trolling.This line is often crossed.

I believe its crossed only when people do not add anything productive to help try an help with the things they feel are poor.

See above.

Regards,

Ultimately, I guess my point is that if someone is being critical of your method, they are under no more requirement to change their mind on what you're doing after you explain it then you are to change your mind after their criticism. And in a situation like that, why is the cry of "need to fight" more tedious than the constant repetitive "chi sau is the way" statement? I think the lack of videos does say alot. I can't make people have constructive conversations on here with each other, but running off dissenting opinions that are, from my point of view, no less repetative than anything else doesn't seem like much of an answer. Then again, I'm just the moderator, my goal is just to make sure people are reasonably polite with one another.

This isn't a general criticism of your postings Jim, I just have this pet peeve about the whole 'go back where you belong' mentality.

Jim Roselando

01-10-2005, 03:52 PM

Sandman!

This isn't a general criticism of your postings Jim, I just have this pet peeve about the whole 'go back where you belong' mentality.

Understood and an excellent post!

Gotta run!

Knifefighter

01-10-2005, 05:51 PM

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
but I really thought you did! I didn't know that! What I really dont get is how someone that does not practice WCK can hang around a WCK forum and comment on WCK all the time? Well, I used to train WC back in the 80's. Does that count?

Ernie

01-10-2005, 06:08 PM

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Well, I used to train WC back in the 80's. Does that count?

chi sau at the inasanto academy is not wing chun dale :D

hell int that case
i can grapple ,box,stickfight,thai box,etc with the best of them

hahahahaah just messing with you man :p :p

Phil Redmond

01-10-2005, 09:06 PM

I received this anonomously:
PR

"Hello, I am a lurker over at the Kung Fu Magazine forums (which is why I'm contacting you via e-mail rather than posting over at those boards). I noticed a thread on videos over at the Wing Chun forum and the fact that people are submitting "chi sao" and fighting clips. I thought that this might be of interest to you guys, since it is Wing Chun vs. Karate. Not only do these fighters do stand-up, but they also go to the ground and the fight ends with a submission. So it's not "pure" Wing Chun, but I thought it might be something to take a look at:"

http://www.perledalen.dk/wt/Video/wt%20vs%20karate.wmv

Phil Redmond

01-10-2005, 09:14 PM

Since it's slow here. I'll make some training clips by next week. If anyone has a digital camera that does mpegs send them to me and I'll get them up too. Email them to sifupr@gmail.com
PR

Knifefighter

01-10-2005, 09:22 PM

Originally posted by Ernie
chi sau at the inasanto academy is not wing chun dale :D How about with Hawkins? Does that count?

Ernie

01-10-2005, 09:27 PM

Originally posted by Knifefighter
How about with Hawkins? Does that count?

he is a hard guy to get stuff out of , how long were you working off him
i see him almost weekly if i ask him about you will he remember ?

and by the way i was just pulling your chain , you know i don't really give a rats a$$

i'm sure you have eating quite a few ''chi sau'' guys for lunch i would excpect no less ;)

Knifefighter

01-10-2005, 09:41 PM

I doubt he would remember me. I was just a snot-nosed kid taking his classes. Not sure exactly how long I worked with him. I used to try to get with all the guys who were hooked up with Dan- all the Filipino guys such a Villabrello and Canete, Art Saxell (who trained Rocky Graziano), one or two other WC guys, the Thai guys, and the Silat guys. During that time I also went and lived in Japan where trained at the Mejiro Dojo with the pros who trained there. What always impressed me the most were the boxing and Muay Thai.

Ernie

01-10-2005, 10:01 PM

Originally posted by Knifefighter
I doubt he would remember me. I was just a snot-nosed kid taking his classes. Not sure exactly how long I worked with him. I used to try to get with all the guys who were hooked up with Dan- all the Filipino guys such a Villabrello and Canete, Art Saxell (who trained Rocky Graziano), one or two other WC guys, the Thai guys, and the Silat guys. During that time I also went and lived in Japan where trained at the Mejiro Dojo with the pros who trained there. What always impressed me the most were the boxing and Muay Thai.

trip i was working with a kicboxer from japan about 2 years ago he wanted some help with his hands and footwork

remember him being one of the kindest most humble people i had ever met

he was from a very popular gym from what he told me , i'll see if i have his email and ask him what gym he trains at

remember him having a very strong thai influence , more thai then american style kickboxing

small world .

i have been to a few inasanto seminars and gone down and worked out at his place ,
to be honest didn't really run into any guys that had the [ trapping range dialed only dan and vu have really impressed me , more then like 90% of the wing chun guys i come across ]

seemed more like a MMA vibe

nothing wrong with that just a different mindset ;)

Ultimatewingchun

01-10-2005, 11:04 PM

Ernie:

This was a post I made on a thread some months ago in response to a question from Dale (KF) after I mentioned that I had met Dan Inosanto back in 1979. Don't know if you ever read this...

"What was your opinion of Dan's Wing Chun skills at that time?' (KF)

He didn't have much real wing chun knowledge at that time - just the basic principles that Bruce had adapted to the JKD style. Bruce had not taught much of the finer points of chi sao to him, for example. Which is not to say that Dan wasn't a good fighter...his knowledge of empty-hand JKD and the stick arts was very impressive.

But he was there because he wanted to learn Wing Chun from Moy Yat - which became something of a disappointing story.

Moy Yat's best student at that time was a guy named John Cheng. John had a black belt in kempo karate before joining Moy Yat - and was a big fan of Bruce Lee.

John and I were also good friends and worked out a lot together in the school - and since I was a big Bruce Lee and JKD fan myself - and since we both had some misgivings about certain parts of the Moy Yat curriculum (very little hard sparring and the classical wing chun footwork - the effectiveness of which both of us had doubts about)...

I suggested to John that we start working out privately....which we did once a week for a period of about maybe six months...gearing up with gloves, headgear, chest protrector, shin and knee pads...and tried to put Bruce's ideas about contact sparring, bridging-the-gap footwork (5 angles of attack), the low lead sidekick, etc...together with the infighting hands we were learning from Moy Yat at the closer range.

The results were very positive for both of us.

As fate would have it ...John worked for AT & T at the time - and they sent him on a business trip for a week to California - DIRECTLY ACROSS THE STREET from Inosanto's JKD school....and John being one of the most amiable of guys...simply walked into Dan's school at 6 pm that Monday night - introduced himself - and was invited by Dan to participate....which he did every night that week.

Dan was very impressed with John's skills - especially the infight wing chun hands that John brought to the table...long story short...Inosanto actually paid Moy Yat's planefare to come to California soon after John's visit.

Moy Yat went out for a week with John and some other guys (I was invited but didn't have the cash at the time)...and then when Moy Yat moved his school from Brooklyn to the Chinatown area of Manhattan a few months later (September, 1979)...Inosanto flew to NY for the grand opening of the school (it was myself, Moy Yat, and Mickey Chan who picked him up at JFK airport).

He spent a week here in New York.

Inosanto was paying $ to Moy Yat during this period - expecting to learn more details of what he saw JOHN doing...but in the end...was disappointed - learned very little from Moy Yat other than some basic chi sao and wing chun principles - with very little real fighting applications.

The relationship ended soon after the New York visit.

Ernie

01-10-2005, 11:35 PM

there are a few different levels to dan

his wing chun skills are not what i like i like his barbaric trapping range ability , this is something vunak has furthur investigated

i have yet to meet very many people that can really work that range with such a ballistic intent

but the dan most people see is the super nice for ever student and all around martial art encyclopedia

i have seen some real old video of the guy doing some very hardcore stuff , seems that he really doesn't and hasn't taught that way for a long time

he is one of the most inspirational guys i have had the pleasure to come across , i just wish when i was a higher skill level during the times i was around him , could have picked up so much more :(

Jim Roselando

01-11-2005, 04:48 AM

Hello KF,

Well, I used to train WC back in the 80's. Does that count?

Ah huh! There had to be some reason you spend so much time on a WCK board! Maybe its the memories! hehehehe

:D

See ya,

Phil Redmond

01-11-2005, 03:22 PM

Here is a beginner working on covering gates. The punches were thrown at medium force and were random so the covering isn't going to look "text book". I had more clips but they didn't come out good. I'll make some more classroom clips this weekend during sparring class.
http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/covering_gates.mpg

PR

old jong

01-11-2005, 03:27 PM

The guy is sparring with his glasses on?...:eek:

Matrix

01-11-2005, 03:39 PM

OJ,
I believe it's just a drill, not sparring. However, you're right to point out the potential danger there.

Phil Redmond

01-11-2005, 07:56 PM

Originally posted by old jong
The guy is sparring with his glasses on?...:eek:
Very good point OJ. Though it was supposed to be random with control, accidents do happen. There will be headgear when we start to pump it up.
PR

Phil Redmond

01-14-2005, 07:52 PM

Mike Harkless took over teaching the Yale University Wing Chun when I left New Haven, CT 7 years ago. I still do two seminars there twice yearly and when the the club president graduates someone else takes over the club. This is Mike working WC chi sau against Southern Mantis chi sau at Payne Whitney Gym at Yale. Mike is in the white shirt.

http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/mikeyale1.AVI
http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/mikeyale2.AVI
http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/mikeyale3.AVI

PR

Phil Redmond

01-14-2005, 08:01 PM

I plan on putting up some standup clips with headgear and gloves real soon. No ones going to see my ground work until I get it and that might be a while . . . grin.
PR

Phil Redmond

01-14-2005, 08:12 PM

This is Sifu Delroi Flood from Bermuda performing a TWC drill and
yes, this is a cooperative drill. ;)
http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/Delroi_Flood.MPG
PR

Phil Redmond

01-14-2005, 08:17 PM

Oh, in case there are questions about why there was no simultaneous strike hit. It's because in the next part of the drill the opponent throws a right left combo so the cheun sau is there to cover the second punch just in case. We always assume we'll be confronted with multiple punches, etc. Lin Siu Dai Da isn't always possible.
PR

Ultimatewingchun

01-14-2005, 08:51 PM

"Oh, in case there are questions about why there was no simultaneous strike hit. It's because..."

Ah.....but Phil....

THERE IS a simultaneous strike hit...

along with the left pak sao on the outside of the attacker's punch Delroi simultaneously hits with a low punch to the body with his right fist....

before coming back up on top for the other hits.

Guess he's just too fast for ya!

You didn't see it.

Phil Redmond

01-14-2005, 10:01 PM

You got me Victor. I'm just so used to some WC people saying that we do too many moves and I always explain that we are anticipating multple attacks. I should have looked more closely at the clip.
Phil

Phil Redmond

01-15-2005, 07:02 PM

Here's a sample of one of my BJJ classes. Tyrone Gooden is showing me a take down. Why?
Just in case I need to take someone down . . . lol.
BTW, anyone ever heard of Raulo Ribiera (sp)?
http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/BJJ1.MPG
PR

Knifefighter

01-15-2005, 07:51 PM

I'd like to see someone perform simultaneous hits against someone who is actually fighting back.

Ultimatewingchun

01-15-2005, 08:12 PM

Absolute simultaneous Wing Chun block and hit can be done occasionally - but usually the hit is done on the half-beat.

IN REAL FIGHTING.

Phil Redmond

01-15-2005, 08:39 PM

Originally posted by Knifefighter
I'd like to see someone perform simultaneous hits against someone who is actually fighting back.
'Ta Da' can be trained. I've used it in kickboxing and for real. Timing is essential.
Phil

sihing

01-15-2005, 08:39 PM

The ideal is to stop hit all the time, as soon as the realization of the fight is on and the opening is there, BANG.. I don't hit, it hit all by itself.....

JR

Mr Punch

01-15-2005, 08:41 PM

Originally posted by Knifefighter
I'd like to see someone perform simultaneous hits against someone who is actually fighting back. How about a slip-parry-straight in boxing if you've never seen one in wing chun? It's no big deal, though as UWC says usually on a half beat.

If you mean throwing out your hands to intercept a strike at the same time as striking, maybe your close to the mark, but as with the slip-parry-straight, it should be down to avoidance, timing, body positioning (inc just going slightly off-line) and having your hands in agood position... if you're trying to intercept, you're chasing hands.

Phil Redmond

01-15-2005, 08:47 PM

Originally posted by Knifefighter
I'd like to see someone perform simultaneous hits against someone who is actually fighting back.
Now that I think of it. Have you ever struck someone at the same time they struck at you. It happens lots in boxing. Or, did you mean simultaneous block and strike?
PR

Ultimatewingchun

01-15-2005, 08:49 PM

"The ideal is to stop hit all the time, as soon as the realization of the fight is on and the opening is there, BANG.. I don't hit, it hit all by itself....."

Sounds wonderful, James.

But as you said...it's the IDEAL.

The real..ity of the situation is this -

when you really spar all out against a skilled fighter with good, fast, elusive and mobile footwork, and who is also trying to hit or kick you with power...there is just no such thing as simultaneous
stop hit ALL THE TIME.

Phil Redmond

01-15-2005, 08:54 PM

Does anyone have any comments about the takedown shown in the clip? I'm a beginner at this and I can use all the input I can get. :)
http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/BJJ1.MPG
PR

Knifefighter

01-15-2005, 09:19 PM

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Absolute simultaneous Wing Chun block and hit can be done occasionally - but usually the hit is done on the half-beat. Sorry, my bad. I thought you were talking about two strikes at the same time.

sihing

01-15-2005, 09:56 PM

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
"The ideal is to stop hit all the time, as soon as the realization of the fight is on and the opening is there, BANG.. I don't hit, it hit all by itself....."

Sounds wonderful, James.

But as you said...it's the IDEAL.

The real..ity of the situation is this -

when you really spar all out against a skilled fighter with good, fast, elusive and mobile footwork, and who is also trying to hit or kick you with power...there is just no such thing as simultaneous
stop hit ALL THE TIME.

Yes agreed, when the skills reach more equal levels then things get more difficult, as logic would dictate. That's the grand question, how often does that happen and are skills ever equal when concerned with another practitioner, especially considering persons from another system or lineage? Lots of factors involved here, and simple equations like adding this or that, or trying this method of conditioning or that way of moving are complex. Master what you know best, improve upon that, and be aware of the methods of the other styles and systems and you should give most practitioners of any style/system problems. If for some reason you have problems with fighters from other systems, then maybe it is the individual that has the problem, therefore the blame is not the system being practiced but the person performing it.

James

sihing

01-15-2005, 10:00 PM

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Does anyone have any comments about the takedown shown in the clip? I'm a beginner at this and I can use all the input I can get. :)
http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/BJJ1.MPG
PR

Yeah, the instructor reminds me of Axel Foley (Eddie Murphy) from Beverly Hills Cop, lol.

The clips looks cool Phil, and since anything can happen in a fight the movements may work or not, depending totally on the situation and the skill of the practitioner performing it. Good luck to you in your future training of BJJ.

James

Knifefighter

01-15-2005, 10:53 PM

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Does anyone have any comments about the takedown shown in the clip? That's a kind of "running the pipe" type of takedown, usually done lower off a double or single leg as a follow up after your opponent counters your first takedown attempt. You will almost never get the kind of angle shown on that clip on your opponent, however. Usually, you will be more in front, and sometimes, more behind your opponent if you end up with an arm trapped in a body-lock type clinch.

That last submission on the ground is not very likely. Notice how he had to put the opponent's arm in front of his face. There are "reverse arm bar" finishes like this, but I don't think the one he showed is very high percentage.

Phil Redmond

01-15-2005, 11:30 PM

SiHing, KF, thanks for the input.
Phil

Ultimatewingchun

01-16-2005, 04:23 PM

Phil:

The takedown that he shows off the pak/da is exactly one of the takedown situations that I work on all the time - and the angle is definitely possible to get when coming off this kind of striking situation (because we're already working the blindside angle from the standup aspect of the scenario) - although I agree with Dale that sometimes you'll wind up behind him in a situation like this...and the first armlock that he showed after the takedown is a definite possibility - but it's not as easy as he made it look - as a good fighter (grappler) knows about that lock and will try to resist it - could require a lot more work to get it - such as an elbow shot to the body with the right elbow if he starts tightening up and resisting - the elbow softens him - and go back for the lock (all the while still framing it up with the left hand holding his left wrist/hand area - and with a left elbow shot to his face on the way down for the finishing lock)....pushing the face down and going for the head scissor with the legs is a good move - but the armlock finish that he describes at that point is VERY low percentage.

The only thing I'd change about the takedown is this, however: His hips were out, and his upper body was bent forward. I recommend locked hips right up against his body...makes for a tighter hold, more balance, and greater power and leverage when going for the takedown.

All in all...good stuff, Phil.

Nice transition from Wing Chun to a grappling finish.

.................................................. ..................................

By the way - we did some filming at yesterday's class - will put something up within the next week on this thread.

Phil Redmond

01-16-2005, 06:18 PM

Thanks Victor. That's the kind of critique I wanted to hear. I really want to be good at this. Email me the mpegs and I'll have them up usually within a day.
Phil

Phil Redmond

01-16-2005, 07:12 PM

Victor, I should mention that Tyrone did accomplish the technique WELL in real time. That's why I asked him to do it slow for the clip. It's easy to nitpick when you watch a technique done slow as ALL WC people know ;)
Phil

Ultimatewingchun

01-16-2005, 07:25 PM

I don't doubt that he did it WELL in real time.

My critique was nothing major - as there were no glaring holes in anything he did. He definitely looks like he's skilled.

Phil Redmond

01-18-2005, 11:39 AM

No one has anything to share? :(
PR

Jim Roselando

01-18-2005, 11:45 AM

Phil wrote:

No one has anything to share?

Yes! Helllooooooooo? Whats up with this lack of desire to demo your WCK?

C'mon guys and gals!

Send in the clips!

Regards,

AmanuJRY

01-18-2005, 11:47 AM

Phil,

I have some clips of stick-sparring (Escrima). But I have to clear it with everyone in them (don't want to post w/o approval). Give me a few days.

Phil Redmond

01-18-2005, 12:29 PM

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
Phil,

I have some clips of stick-sparring (Escrima). But I have to clear it with everyone in them (don't want to post w/o approval). Give me a few days.
Sweet, send them to sifupr@gmail.com
OK, who's next ? ? ?
Phil

mortal

01-18-2005, 01:17 PM

I am suprised that none of you could provide some footage of hard sparring at least. I have been following this for a while. I respect you guys, but lets see some resisting opponent stuff.
If you make this stuff your life by teaching it and you do it why don't any of you tape it? Everyone claims best lineage, best fighter, best teacher, but no clips. Then when I see one it sucks or doesn't represent wingchun. I know I sound like knifefighter but unfortunatly he has a point. If you teach the stuff you should tape some good stuff, being that you live it everyday. According to your posts anyway.

Phil Redmond

01-18-2005, 02:44 PM

Originally posted by mortal
I am suprised that none of you could provide some footage of hard sparring at least. I have been following this for a while. I respect you guys, but lets see some resisting opponent stuff.
If you make this stuff your life by teaching it and you do it why don't any of you tape it? Everyone claims best lineage, best fighter, best teacher, but no clips. Then when I see one it sucks or doesn't represent wingchun. I know I sound like knifefighter but unfortunatly he has a point. If you teach the stuff you should tape some good stuff, being that you live it everyday. According to your posts anyway.
Hey mortal, since there aren't too many it should be esy to point out which clips suck and why. Obviously, the BJJ clip doesn't represent WC.
PR

mortal

01-18-2005, 02:50 PM

Its not that they suck. They just aren't for the most part, hard sparring. That is when it is wingchun. They are mostly just playing or drilling. I thought this thread was going to produce some explosive stuff from you guys. I am just expressing my dissapointment. If I was teaching for ten years plus I would have hours of sparring on tape by now. It makes me wonder if knifefighter hasn't had a good point in his search for real wingchun skill. It shouldn't be so hard to find.

Ultimatewingchun

01-18-2005, 04:36 PM

Will be posting an attachment that shows some contact sparring with protective gear by the end of the week...as an opening installment.

Plan on posting at least one video clip...once-a-month...for at least 4-5-6 consecutive months.

They will all be unplanned, unrehearsed, competitive, contact sparring. And what I'll try to do is pick out certain spots within the sparring that show various types of fighting situations. For example - we had the camera rolling for at least one hour this past Saturday...but I just plan on posting one clip for now...because what happened at that moment covers some bases we've been all been talking about on this forum in recent weeks.

And I plan on posting not just myself vs. one of my students - but sometimes just a clip of two of them going at it.

And as I said recently - the fighting will also include more than Wing Chun...there will be some fighting-in-the-clinch and wrestling going on as well.

But this post is not really about MMA, per se.

It's about the fact that I believe a lot more of us should be posting fight clips of our Wing Chun - whether it be Wing Chun alone - or some sort of mixture of Wing Chun and something else...either way...more of us should do it.

I know Phil Redmond well enough to know that sooner-or-later he'll get some stuff posted...and I'm sure I can say the same for a handful of other people around here as well.

But what about the rest of you?

Besides Jim, Van, and Derek. And props to them for at least putting something up by now...and to Dale (KF), for at least trying to put something up.

WING CHUN SPARRING....

Where has it gone?

Time for a reincarnation of sorts.

VingDragon

01-18-2005, 05:28 PM

Victor,

I have friends which I training with, but we usually do that at evening in park. To record something is not a problem for me.

Only what I need is to find time during a day and someone willing to sparr, then I will record it

Who can help ? Brooklyn

Ultimatewingchun

01-18-2005, 07:00 PM

Ving Dragon:

Just sent you a private message.

Phil Redmond

01-18-2005, 07:41 PM

Originally posted by mortal
Its not that they suck. They just aren't for the most part, hard sparring. That is when it is wingchun. They are mostly just playing or drilling. I thought this thread was going to produce some explosive stuff from you guys. I am just expressing my dissapointment. If I was teaching for ten years plus I would have hours of sparring on tape by now. It makes me wonder if knifefighter hasn't had a good point in his search for real wingchun skill. It shouldn't be so hard to find.
Well I've been teaching for more than 'ten years plus' and have I don't have hours of sparring on tape. I don't even have my full contact fights on tape. I just recently started doing mpegs of my students. I do have a fight with one of Victor's students but he would have to give permission to post that one. BTW, do you have any clips of you sparring to contribute?
PR

woosow

01-18-2005, 09:34 PM

And then what?

Will you stop crosstraining and return to WC?

Gary Lam trained both Wing Chun and MT and his old school in Hong Kong still turns out guys who do both.

But are you Gary?

Gary Lam's Muay Thai Champions (http://www.garylamwingchun.com/photos_hk.html)

The Kamon WC guys in the UK train in BJJ as well. But are you Kevin Chan?

Kevin Chan, BJJ Purple Belt; WC instructor (http://www.kamonwingchun.com/Brazilian%20Jiu-Jitsu.asp)

Originally posted by Knifefighter
So, it will be WC vs. WC? If that is the case, I guess that's better than nothing. However, what I would like to see from somebody is WC against a halfway skilled boxer or Muay Thai guy. If someone can pull that off, then I will be sold on the effectiveness of the system.

Edmund

01-18-2005, 10:42 PM

Originally posted by mortal
Its not that they suck. They just aren't for the most part, hard sparring. That is when it is wingchun. They are mostly just playing or drilling. I thought this thread was going to produce some explosive stuff from you guys. I am just expressing my dissapointment. If I was teaching for ten years plus I would have hours of sparring on tape by now. It makes me wonder if knifefighter hasn't had a good point in his search for real wingchun skill. It shouldn't be so hard to find.

It's not hard to find at all. Just search further back on this forum I reckon.

I recall there were lots of clips posted of WT guys from Europe beating the bejesus out of each other. Plus there were some of a Scandanavian WT girl and guy winning their MT matches a long time ago.

But wasn't there something recently like 2 weeks ago from some Chinese amateur comp.

If you think it's going to get much better than that you're in for a shock. There's no magic inch punching kill shots coming. No Matrix moves where the opponent just gets completely crushed by the internal power of a single WC vertical fist and rushed off in an ambulance.

mortal

01-19-2005, 10:31 AM

At Grados they filmed me sparring three of his senior students in a row one after the other with no rest. They play it on the public access channel in NYC. I will try to get a copy.

I am saving up for a video camera. Once I buy it I will tape some and throw it on the forum.

My vid clips aren't the point. If I trained this stuff for years I would have something.

Don't you think it is suprising that no one posted anything like what knifefighter is talking about yet? Out of all the wingchun experts on here? I figured there would be dozens of clips.
It makes me question how much fighting are any of you really doing?

I just think it is strange. If someone in the brooklyn area wants to do some sparring on tape send me an e-mail. Then we can post it and I will show what I can do. Or you guys can just tape me when we all meet up.

mortal

01-19-2005, 10:35 AM

"If you think it's going to get much better than that you're in for a shock. There's no magic inch punching kill shots coming. No Matrix moves where the opponent just gets completely crushed by the internal power of a single WC vertical fist and rushed off in an ambulance."

You don't know my experiance. If you did you wouldn't make this statement. I don't beleive in any mystical crap. But from what I have seen on here there are no structured wingchun techniques. Just wild swining. For the record short punches do work and can easily take someone out.

Phil Redmond

01-19-2005, 11:00 AM

Hey Mortal, what's your real name? I'm from Brooklyn and I was just curious if you were from the WC circles I know. It's hard to tell who's who when people don't post their real names. My real name is Phillip Redmond. I was known as Bilal or WC Bilal in NYC.
PR

Knifefighter

01-19-2005, 11:01 AM

Originally posted by woosow

Gary Lam trained both Wing Chun and MT and his old school in Hong Kong still turns out guys who do both.
The Kamon WC guys in the UK train in BJJ as well. But are you Kevin Chan? But there is no evidence that any of of those people is actually using WC in any of their fighting. Every competition listed for Kevin Chan is for grappling only.

Knifefighter

01-19-2005, 11:06 AM

Originally posted by mortal

You don't know my experiance. If you did you wouldn't make this statement. If you truly do posses WC skills that can be demonstrated against a resisting opponent, I'll bet Phil will let you stop by his school with a sparring partner for a session in front of the camera.

Knifefighter

01-19-2005, 11:10 AM

Originally posted by Edmund

I recall there were lots of clips posted of WT guys from Europe beating the bejesus out of each other. Plus there were some of a Scandanavian WT girl and guy winning their MT matches a long time ago.

But wasn't there something recently like 2 weeks ago from some Chinese amateur comp. The majority of posters here said all of those guys sucked and were very low level WC practitioners. Funny how no one has of yet been able to demonstrate a higher quality, however.

Knifefighter

01-19-2005, 11:40 AM

***See above***

mortal

01-19-2005, 11:41 AM

***See above***

mortal

01-19-2005, 11:45 AM

I am not highly skilled. I don't remember claiming that.

I just have a ton of heart. That overcomes skill anyday.

Knifefighter

01-19-2005, 11:50 AM

Originally posted by mortal
I am not highly skilled. I don't remember claiming that. But haven't you been claiming all along that you could demonstrated "real WC skills" much better than all the people in those video clips?

mortal

01-19-2005, 11:53 AM

No I am saying their should be more clips of good actual wingchun and that I was suprised that there wasn't.

mortal

01-19-2005, 12:31 PM

***removed personal attack junk***

Ernie

01-19-2005, 01:13 PM

Originally posted by Knifefighter
But there is no evidence that any of of those people is actually using WC in any of their fighting. Every competition listed for Kevin Chan is for grappling only.

there are fight tapes of gary and his students floating around , but when i asked what they look like , he just laughed and said what else a fight ! more sloppy and wild then pretty

like most fights

if you looking for the perfect pak sau or tan da in the middle of a fight

then your only looking skin deep ,
more often then not it's the attributes you develop that are used , not so much which way your toe is pointing

and gary stated most wing chun guys get the a$$ kicked by MT
wing chun guys lack the conditioning
his guys had to impliment thai kicks and counters but kept WC hand and sesntivity training
but it's just a sport a game
in any game you must play by the rules
no big deal
:rolleyes:

mortal

01-19-2005, 01:41 PM

I am not saying I am the ultimate fighter.

I am not saying I am better than anyone.

I respect most of your opnions.

Phil Redmond

I am mainly a shaolin guy.(6 years)
I just started a couple of years ago with wingchun. But I practiced a hell of a lot in an intense environment. So you probably woudn't know me. I respect and know who you are though.

I am not on here to flame.

I am just truly suprised by the lack of good footage.

I thought there would be a ton of stuff on here by now.

Phil Redmond

01-19-2005, 02:33 PM

Originally posted by mortal
I am not saying I am the ultimate fighter.

I am not saying I am better than anyone.

I respect most of your opnions.

Phil Redmond

I am mainly a shaolin guy.(6 years)
I just started a couple of years ago with wingchun. But I practiced a hell of a lot in an intense environment. So you probably woudn't know me. I respect and know who you are though.

I am not on here to flame.

I am just truly suprised by the lack of good footage.

I thought there would be a ton of stuff on here by now.

Thanks for your reply Anthony. I hope we ALL can be friends or at least civil here. I do understand where you are coming from. I have had to deal with the fact that most other martial artist have little respect for WC. The general consensus is that WC attracts so called "intellectual" types that don't want to sweat in the Dojo and train hard and always talk about theory. I didn't make this up myself, I read it some where years ago. I know some really good WC fighters from Sifu Duncan Leungs's school and a few others. But at large in my personal experience I have seen too many WC people that can't apply all that theory they argue about in a real fight or even in sparring matches. That's why though I teach WC, I consider myself a martial artist over being simply a WC person. There are too many facets to fighting to depend on one system if one is to be a complete fighter. What can I say?
PR

mortal

01-19-2005, 03:05 PM

"The general consensus is that WC attracts so called "intellectual" types that don't want to sweat in the Dojo and train hard and always talk about theory. I didn't make this up myself, I read it some were years ago."

I couldn't agree with you more. On the other side of the coin is the guys who only train power with no fighting theory. Or all throws or groundwork but no standup. There is something to be taken from everything.

I am not on the kungfu forum with the purpose of making enemies. Kung fu is and always will be a major focus in my life. None of my friends train. So I never have anyone to chat with about kungfu.

Edmund

01-19-2005, 05:10 PM

Originally posted by Knifefighter
The majority of posters here said all of those guys sucked and were very low level WC practitioners. Funny how no one has of yet been able to demonstrate a higher quality, however.

Because they can't!
The magic WC moves that people demo just don't exist outside of kungfu movies. It can't be applied. Shocking isn't it.

All you could hope to see is what you already saw done slightly harder/quicker, maybe with tighter defence.

There's no way a WC guy is going to look better than a kickboxer in the ring. They generally can't kick. They don't want to use boxing gloves. They don't do a lot of pad work. They don't do a lot of clinching knees. They don't condition themselves for a ring fight. What chance have they got of looking even half decent without doing any of those things? (Apologies to those who do the above things.)

Put an experienced WC guy against a complete newbie and you can maybe see some fancy stuff. But against anyone who knows anything, the WC guy has to rely on the same simple moves as everyone else: punch, kick, elbow, knee, grabbing, footwork.

Even then, some of the ideas people have about making the simple moves more "WC-like" are completely hokey. Don't hold your breath waiting to see any of those ideas working on video.

Edmund

01-19-2005, 05:14 PM

Originally posted by mortal
"If you think it's going to get much better than that you're in for a shock. There's no magic inch punching kill shots coming. No Matrix moves where the opponent just gets completely crushed by the internal power of a single WC vertical fist and rushed off in an ambulance."

You don't know my experiance. If you did you wouldn't make this statement. I don't beleive in any mystical crap. But from what I have seen on here there are no structured wingchun techniques. Just wild swining. For the record short punches do work and can easily take someone out.

I await your video.

Knifefighter

01-19-2005, 06:49 PM

Originally posted by Ernie
...what else a fight ! more sloppy and wild then pretty
if you looking for the perfect pak sau or tan da in the middle of a fight then your only looking skin deep ,
more often then not it's the attributes you develop that are used , not so much which way your toe is pointing

Originally posted by Edmund
Because they can't!
The magic WC moves that people demo just don't exist outside of kungfu movies. It can't be applied. Shocking isn't it.
But against anyone who knows anything, the WC guy has to rely on the same simple moves as everyone else: punch, kick, elbow, knee, grabbing, footwork. Exactly...although the theoretical non-fighting WC nerds will try to convince you otherwise.

Phil Redmond

01-19-2005, 08:14 PM

Originally posted by Ernie
there are fight tapes of gary and his students floating around , but when i asked what they look like , he just laughed and said what else a fight ! more sloppy and wild then pretty like most fights
if you looking for the perfect pak sau or tan da in the middle of a fight
then your only looking skin deep ,
more often then not it's the attributes you develop that are used , not so much which way your toe is pointing
:rolleyes:
AMEN. Can I get a witness? :D
You won't see Jet Li like choreographed moves in a real fight.
PR

Ultimatewingchun

01-19-2005, 09:35 PM

"The magic WC moves that people demo just don't exist outside of kungfu movies. It can't be applied."

BS, Edmund.

"There's no way a WC guy is going to look better than a kickboxer..."

MORE BS.

You're going to see someone skilled in kickboxing come at me with two hook punches to the head meant to put me on the floor...and watch what happens.

The clip will be up within a few days on the VIDEO FOOTAGE thread.

Edmund

01-19-2005, 10:41 PM

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
"The magic WC moves that people demo just don't exist outside of kungfu movies. It can't be applied."

BS, Edmund.

"There's no way a WC guy is going to look better than a kickboxer..."

MORE BS.

You're going to see someone skilled in kickboxing come at me with two hook punches to the head meant to put me on the floor...and watch what happens.

The clip will be up within a few days on the VIDEO FOOTAGE thread.

Keen to see it.

sihing

01-19-2005, 11:06 PM

Me too, it sould be a interesting comparison to 14yrs ago...

JR

Ernie

01-19-2005, 11:21 PM

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Exactly...although the theoretical non-fighting WC nerds will try to convince you otherwise.

if you have superior speed , timing and position , then you can use any technique you want , tan pak , jab cross , shoot , single double, thai kick , whatever

it comes down to developing your attributes , your ability to set up and read , put him in a bad position or sieze the a opening when it is there

if your a wing chun person and you train under pressure you will have a just as much as a chance to pull off your stuff as a thai guy or boxer
but you need to train at that level ,
if there is a big difference in skill you can do all your fancy stuff

no big deal

it;s when people are more evenly matched that things get f@cked up a bit

:D

sihing

01-20-2005, 01:33 AM

Originally posted by Ernie
if you have superior speed , timing and position , then you can use any technique you want , tan pak , jab cross , shoot , single double, thai kick , whatever

it comes down to developing your attributes , your ability to set up and read , put him in a bad position or sieze the a opening when it is there

if your a wing chun person and you train under pressure you will have a just as much as a chance to pull off your stuff as a thai guy or boxer
but you need to train at that level ,
if there is a big difference in skill you can do all your fancy stuff

no big deal

it;s when people are more evenly matched that things get f@cked up a bit

:D

The development of superior timing, speed (fast movements not fast moving limbs) and positioning are the primary attributes that Wing Chun teaches, but without the basic structure or foundation (tan, wu, pak, fok, jut, etc..) you have nothing. Lol, everyone knows that when skill is equal things are more difficult, anyone in any MA art with quality skill will be difficult, so if that is true then it comes down to what is more effective. Is the straight line more effective/efficient than the round? Yes. But then there are people that say in certain situations the round is better. Yeah, when you’re out of position, which means what, you made an error, to which is not the fault of the system learned but of the individual. Straight lines are shorter and require less time to complete than curved lines, EFFICIENCY gentlemen, plain and simple.

IMO, that fact of the matter is lots of MA systems are not primarily based on efficiency, but rather output. To me output means how much of your natural power and speed can you put into a particular method of movement. Even if you can put 100% of everything you have into your movement, there's always someone stronger and faster than you, so you’re always susceptible to another just for the fact that they may overpower you. Efficiency is not a common thing in human combative nature, so when applied correctly moving in an efficient manner, combined with one's natural strength and speed, one can be combat effective, regardless of the opponent’s physical strength and speed advantages.

James

SAAMAG

01-20-2005, 07:30 AM

Have you ever stopped and looked around at the best fighters in the world? They don't use only one type of movement, or one type of punch. Doing that would allow the opponent to adapt and overcome such an obvious bias in techniques. I did the same to the wing chun guys in that last sparring match I had with them...every single hook hit it's mark just about...because I timed it right...not because I was out of position.

Efficiency in fighting isn't necessarily using only straight line, efficiency is putting out the least effort and getting the maxium results.

If it's easist to hit you with a round punch, and that's what's going to stop you...then that's what I'll do...I could care less if it follow wing chun dogma. THATS efficiency.

Ernie

01-20-2005, 07:46 AM

[[The development of superior timing, speed (fast movements not fast moving limbs) and positioning are the primary attributes that Wing Chun teaches, but without the basic structure or foundation (tan, wu, pak, fok, jut, etc..) you have nothing.]]

if you need to think in terms of tan bong and fook your are only using pictures

if you need to use these pictures then you have learned nothing

fighting is motion , positions shapes are like smoke

until one fights pure and free then one is still in a robotic stage

trying to make a fight have the ''picture'' of a drill

;)

Ernie

01-20-2005, 09:06 AM

James you really hit on something here would be a great thread

Efficiency vs out put

On paper wing Chun is very efficient and yes the training methods do tend to ‘’get you there quicker’’

But efficiency is measured in many ways, why do 3 actions if 1 is enough?
Why try and finish making a shape or a posture when just a portion of the action will suffice?

There is paper efficiency and natural efficiency

Now lets say all the efficiency training, paper and concept and theory stuff is working just fine [giving a lot of leeway here]

So now you get there, what do you get there with, is you method of efficiency also taking into account the power you will need to get the job done?
If so what type of power momentum power, short power, raw power,

Does you method of efficiency support the body structure it takes to deliver and receive power?

If so it should take 1, 2 punches since you have such a efficient method that secured your position and allowed you the window to set up for clear clean maximum power release

If your system is not producing these results and you need more work zone and flurry perhaps then is it truly efficient?

You see it is real easy to say straight line but how many have it highly cultivated?

So really what is more efficient 10 punches or one, 5 actions or 1, zoning taking 4 steps or going in taking 1

Talking is easy doing is something else

Not picking on you James you just inspired a thought

Phil Redmond

01-20-2005, 09:41 AM

Sihing wrote:>>Is the straight line more effective/efficient than the round? Yes. But then there are people that say in certain situations the round is better. Yeah, when you’re out of position, which means what, you made an error, to which is not the fault of the system learned but of the individual. Straight lines are shorter and require less time to complete than curved lines, EFFICIENCY gentlemen, plain and simple.<<
I'm not sure what your Sifu teaches in your school but in TWC a circle can be more effective than a straight line. Remember a circle can be as small as a pin point. You don't have to be out of position to use a circular movement. The Lauh Saus in SLT is a good example.
PR

Phil Redmond

01-20-2005, 09:45 AM

Phil Redmond

01-20-2005, 09:55 AM

Originally posted by sihing
. . . Efficiency is not a common thing in human combative nature, so when applied correctly moving in an efficient manner, combined with one's natural strength and speed, one can be combat effective, regardless of the opponent’s physical strength and speed advantages.
James
I may be wrong but it seems to me that you're saying that WC is more efficient that other forms of combat. Does that imply that WC should always win? What makes WC more efficient, the tan pak, centerline theory? Have you even seen Bak Mei or Juk Lam Mantis. I believe efficiency comes from constant training against resisting opponents. If one person trains at what you consider inefficient but can pull it off under pressure does it still count?
PR

sihing

01-20-2005, 11:04 AM

Don't worry Victor, we all have our opinions on things and training methods, and also our own individual experiences, to which no one on here actual knows about each other, so when people disagree with what I believe or say it does not effect what I think in any way. Also your constant statements about what you think of my skill level, and how my posts reflect a lack of it, LOL, maybe you should read your own posts once in awhile. I'm not the one that has been practicing WC since 1975 and is still insecure about their ability to effectively defend one's self, still searching for that technique or method that will enable one to be truly "Ultimate". You seem to not realize that I met people everyday that are interested in learning WC. About 40% of them have previous MA experience too, lol. 99% of the time at the end of the personal introductory lesson I have done with them they are totally convinced about firstly the effectiveness of the Wing Chun system and secondly that I am capable of using it well.

As for Ernie's statements
"On paper wing Chun is very efficient and yes the training methods do tend to ‘’get you there quicker’’
But efficiency is measured in many ways, why do 3 actions if 1 is enough?
Why try and finish making a shape or a posture when just a portion of the action will suffice?
There is paper efficiency and natural efficiency "

Your correct in that performing 3 actions is less efficient than 1. As for making shapes or postures, if this is about concerning ourselves with perfect Wing Chun movement, that is not the point also. The first point or thing to do in Wing Chun training is to develop structure in your body and to develop proper positioning so that it is natural and is there all the time, not just when needed. Basically the body has to be retrained to react in an efficient and effective manner, without conscious thought so that everything one does is done by itself. After this is done you have to learn to read your opponent like a book and once physical confrontation is inevitable be proactive in ending it quickly (when possible) or reactive but prepared when surprised (which is much more difficult).

"So now you get there, what do you get there with, is you method of efficiency also taking into account the power you will need to get the job done?
If so what type of power momentum power, short power, raw power, Does you method of efficiency support the body structure it takes to deliver and receive power?
If so it should take 1, 2 punches since you have such an efficient method that secured your position and allowed you the window to set up for clear clean maximum power release"

Off course each method has to take into account power generation. Wing Chun power, IMO, is a shocking power with instantaneous speed (like a bullet coming out of a barrel of a gun), generated from very short distance.

If the body structure of the system wasn't designed for this type of power generation then you would know about it early on in the learning process, therefore some other structure would have to be implemented. With the vertical fist, with the wrist & forearm locked into place with proper form, the power is reabsorbed through the arm and body. At the highest level of skill(with includes all those things that are required for one to be effective in combat, not just individual skill in personal movement and structure) yes only 1 to 2 punches would be required but more can be implemented when needed due to the various situations that arise in a physical confrontation between yourself and an opponent.

"You see it is real easy to say straight line but how many have it highly cultivated?
So really what is more efficient 10 punches or one, 5 actions or 1, zoning taking 4 steps or going in taking 1
Talking is easy doing is something else"

Yes, agreed, if someone has not put the work in then the system will not work, simple logic here and know one should disagree with that. About the zoning thing, again if you go straight down the middle(centerline) or off to the side(blindside) it is still one step, just in a different direction. IMO, the blindside puts one in a more superior position for the weapons to be used more effectively with less resistance, but this does not always have to be done, since anything can happen in a fight and to be successful perfection in WC movement is not the final goal. The final goal is getting out of the situation unharmed.

James

sihing

01-20-2005, 11:14 AM

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Sihing wrote:>>Is the straight line more effective/efficient than the round? Yes. But then there are people that say in certain situations the round is better. Yeah, when you’re out of position, which means what, you made an error, to which is not the fault of the system learned but of the individual. Straight lines are shorter and require less time to complete than curved lines, EFFICIENCY gentlemen, plain and simple.<<
I'm not sure what your Sifu teaches in your school but in TWC a circle can be more effective than a straight line. Remember a circle can be as small as a pin point. You don't have to be out of position to use a circular movement. The Lauh Saus in SLT is a good example.
PR

Phil,

In attack the straight line is used the majority of the time, rather than the round movements(like the common hook punches in boxing). As for the "Lauh Saus" in SLT, I'm not familar with that term but I think your meaning the big Huen Sao's from the advanced SLT? This is a defensive movement, used to get out of trapped elbow position from the parallel side (on most occasions but there are other uses for it). The more skilled you get at it the tighter the circle. Circles are most used in defense and help us to achieve superior position in relation to our opponents.

James

sihing

01-20-2005, 11:29 AM

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
I may be wrong but it seems to me that you're saying that WC is more efficient that other forms of combat. Does that imply that WC should always win? What makes WC more efficient, the tan pak, centerline theory? Have you even seen Bak Mei or Juk Lam Mantis. I believe efficiency comes from constant training against resisting opponents. If one person trains at what you consider inefficient but can pull it off under pressure does it still count?
PR

IMO, Wing Chun is more efficient and effective than most other forms of combat. Does this mean Wing Chun will always win? No, but again this applies to any system or style of MA. So many are scared stiff of the Muay Thai people but is it the individual that is scary or the effectiveness of the Art. Again, if you have two identical people in every genetic way, and one practices Wing Chun (particular methods of it at least, because not all WC is equal or the same) and the other some other form of MA, both training the same time and intensity with quality instructors, IMO the WC man will overcome the other one in physical combat, just due to the inherent effectiveness of WC's delivery systems and concepts/principals. If one learns the other system more thoroughly and intensely than the one learning WC then for sure they will have the advantage, regardless of what the system learned is. Anyone with any high quality skill in any MA will be difficult to defeat, but when skill level(again all that encompasses combat skill- technical skill, knowledge of the system, tool development, etc..) in respective systems/styles is equal between two combatants then what will be the difference?
How inhertantly effective is the system that one uses will be a big factor, also Heart/Will like discussed in previous threads.

James

Ultimatewingchun

01-20-2005, 12:16 PM

"Is the straight line more effective/efficient than the round? Yes. But then there are people that say in certain situations the round is better. Yeah, when you’re out of position, which means what, you made an error, to which is not the fault of the system learned but of the individual." (James Roller)

This is total nonsense...Sandman.

Hook punches and roundhouse kicks - when thrown at the right moment...WORK.

And depending TOTALLY upon straight line punches and kicks will limit one's options to a significant degree.

And if one is doing any real sparring with opponent's skilled in boxing, kickboxing, Thai-boxing, or even streetfighting...

then they will find out the accuracy of my statements very quickly.

sihing

01-20-2005, 12:45 PM

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
"Is the straight line more effective/efficient than the round? Yes. But then there are people that say in certain situations the round is better. Yeah, when you’re out of position, which means what, you made an error, to which is not the fault of the system learned but of the individual." (James Roller)

This is total nonsense...Sandman.

Hook punches and roundhouse kicks - when thrown at the right moment...WORK.

And depending TOTALLY upon straight line punches and kicks will limit one's options to a significant degree.

And if one is doing any real sparring with opponent's skilled in boxing, kickboxing, Thai-boxing, or even streetfighting...

then they will find out the accuracy of my statements very quickly.

Nothing in my statement says that rounds and hook don't work, just that IMO not as effectively and efficiently as the straight's. Tell me, when you throw a hook punch, what's protecting that side of the body? Nothing because your arm is busy punching in a round movement and not occupying that space. When you use the straight your arm is still down center, protecting the space and is only extended full for what 2 or 3/10th's of a second, if that.

Oh by the way I do have round, hooks, cresent kicks in my arsenal, not just front kicks...and I can use Jow sao if need be to come around a object or obstruction, which is like a forward extended huen sao movement.

James

Ultimatewingchun

01-20-2005, 12:51 PM

"Is the straight line more effective/efficient than the round? Yes. But then there are people that say in certain situations the round is better. Yeah, when you’re out of position, which means what, you made an error, to which is not the fault of the system learned but of the individual." (James Roller)

You said that rounds are better than straights ONLY WHEN YOU'RE OUT OF POSITION...(go back and look at your quote).

But sometimes you set yourself up in position to throw a hook punch...as the result of BEING EFFICIENT.

Which is 180 degrees away from what you were trying to say - as reflected in this:

"...which means that you made an error." (James)

sihing

01-20-2005, 01:01 PM

The meaning behind my statement "Is the straight line more effective/efficient than the round? Yes. But then there are people that say in certain situations the round is better. Yeah, when you’re out of position, which means what, you made an error, to which is not the fault of the system learned but of the individual" meaning that people use the reasoning that rounds are sometimes necessary or preferred more than the straight. The only time really it is needed is when you are 1)Out of postion, to which is the individuals fault for being in the wrong spot at the wrong time or 2) multiple opponents, meaning it is hard to set up correctly when more than one is coming at you.

Although I believe in the straight movements efficiency and effectiveness it still doesn't mean I can't use the round movements also. WC provides a set of tools and delivery systems that enable us to protect ourselves against aggressive physical attack by others, and although there are rules and guidelines to adhere to, we as individuals are still in command and can still do whatever we want to do. The point is just because you think and know I train in WC exclusively doesn't mean I won't or can't use something else, we as Human Beings are very creative.

James

Ultimatewingchun

01-20-2005, 01:18 PM

Yeah, James.

Okay.

...As I walk into the sunset - having left my hooks and roundhouses in the desert for the scorpions and vultures to devour.

"Form practice, anyone?"

Sandman2[Wing Chun]

01-20-2005, 02:18 PM

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
"Is the straight line more effective/efficient than the round? Yes. But then there are people that say in certain situations the round is better. Yeah, when you’re out of position, which means what, you made an error, to which is not the fault of the system learned but of the individual." (James Roller)

This is total nonsense...Sandman.

And I'm not disagreeing with you. My only point is that there's a difference between saying:

"I don't think you're right and here's why..."

and

"A HA!! You have obviously revealed your pathetic lack of experience."

I actually agree with a great number of your thoughts and ideas on Wing Chun, this in particular. There are arcing kicks (reference: chum kui) and hooking punches (reference: biu jee). All things in the proper time and place. I just happen to think you can have a conversation about this without resorting to character/experience assassination or any other "appeal to authority". That's all I'm getting at.

t_niehoff

01-20-2005, 02:27 PM

The Sandman's been earning his pay lately!

Phil Redmond

01-20-2005, 02:34 PM

Originally posted by sihing
Phil,

In attack the straight line is used the majority of the time, rather than the round movements(like the common hook punches in boxing). As for the "Lauh Saus" in SLT, I'm not familar with that term but I think your meaning the big Huen Sao's from the advanced SLT? This is a defensive movement, used to get out of trapped elbow position from the parallel side (on most occasions but there are other uses for it). The more skilled you get at it the tighter the circle. Circles are most used in defense and help us to achieve superior position in relation to our opponents.

James
Hi James, the Lauh Sau was explained to us in 1983. I don't have any footage of that explanation but I do have a 1984 explanation of the lauh sau from Cheung Sifu. There is also another clip of the VTM seminar that Sifu did with an explanation of the lauh sau. Also, which of the two people on the video you put up on the same site is you?
Got to: http://www.wck-media.co.uk/ look at the clips named;
cheung_1984_twc_tan-lauh.mpg
cheung_punch-lauh_twc_slt.mpg
cheung_tan-lauh_twc_slt.mpg
PR