Jian V. Kwandao

[SimonM]

I was doing some weapon sparring today. I was using a wood practice Jian and my brother was using a mock-Kwandao that we came up with. In all fairness, my wood Jian is half the weight (at most) of a real jian and his "Kwandao" was at least 7 lbs too light but - hey - you do the best you can with what you have. One problem I noticed was that with the huge blade and massive reach of the "Kwandao" my brother could keep me pretty much constantly on the defensive. I was rather lacking in good opportunities to attack. If I had been using the Dao I have some strategies to bridge the gap against pole weapons but they wouldn't adapt too well to the two-edged Jian. What strategies exist that are good for closing the gap in a Jian v. Spear/Polearm situation?

[gfx]

attack the front wrist/arm holding the kwandao first, and work your way up. Because of your range, you need to try to get inside his blade. Remember to avoid direct blocks, try to use body position to lure him to over commit.

Just some ideas.

[Marky]

Many moons practice sticky sword and sticky pole technique.

Confucius say, "MAKE NO JOKES ABOUT STICKY POLE TECHNIQUE!"

Seriously though, are you using your sword to stick to the pole? Or am I speaking Greek?

[SimonM]

Thanks for the tips. Now I just have to figure a way to convince my brother to over-commit. (He usually commits less to his initial shots and turns up the heat after he has hit a few times when we spar bare hand and with staff-type weapons he also trys to keep his weight back and play it safe.

The best I was doing was attacking his legs but whenever I got an opportunity to drop low, I would have to pull back to avoid getting "chopped in half" :p

I'll try attacking his lead hand more. I got a couple of those through... Thanks!

I do try to stick my sword to his pole but it is one thing that my Sifu hasn't gotten into much detail about lately (he just recently decided to start teaching some of us Jian a few months back - before that there was mabey 3 people in the kwoon aside from him that knew any of it). I will make sure to ask him about that the next time I get into the kwoon.

[ShaolinTiger00]

jian easily.

physics. fast thrusting weapon + mobilty vs. slow powerful slashing weapon.

Jian comes out of the gate with thrusts and weaves inside, too close for efficient kwandao work.


When weapons became based upon personal combat vs. war the "rapier" like weapon became the champion with good reason.

[SimonM]

That's why I specified the weight discrepancies. His mock up Kwandao at most was the same weight as my wood Jian replica. :p

[gfx]

Don't focus too much on sticking to his weapon, the goal is to hit him, not the weapon. Make yourself a threat to him, so he'll worry more about protecting himself than attacking you. Remember he got a heavier (in theory) and longer weapon, it's a bad idea to receive heavy blows from him. Instead, pressure him, and take the initiative.

Idea:
Feight a thrust to his head ( make sure it's threatening ), he'll likely try to parry you, withdraw the blade before he makes contact, and go for a thrust to the body. Make sure your body position is shifted when you attack, so you don't end up getting hit.

[SiuHung]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
jian easily.

physics. fast thrusting weapon + mobilty vs. slow powerful slashing weapon.

Jian comes out of the gate with thrusts and weaves inside, too close for efficient kwandao work.


When weapons became based upon personal combat vs. war the "rapier" like weapon became the champion with good reason.

Yah, but how many spear vs. rapier duels where there? These are two different weapons for entirely different purposes. Choose the right tools for the job:

Kwan Dao on a battlefield with armor on horseback...Jian would be almost useless.

One on one duel, kwan dao is too slow and heavy and will be outmanuevered by the jian.

Drop the kwan dao and use an eyebrow height staff, mind the fingers...there's a matchup for you.

[SimonM]

:)
Drop the kwan dao and use an eyebrow height staff, mind the fingers...there's a matchup for you.

That's a matchup that my 'bro would like.

I've always been crazy about swords; Jian, Dao, Katana, European Swords, etc.

He likes poles - from staffs through spears all the way to big bloody Kwandaos.

Unsurprisingly we both like the Pudao though neither of us has had the opportunity to train with one.

[rogue]

throw your sword at his eyes and then go in. You still may kill you but people will speak of your foolhardy courage for years. And it might work so it's a win/win, except for the being dead part.

[David Jamieson]

kwan dao can be used as a thrusting weapon and can also disarm a swordplayer with realtive ease just through sheer weight and force of the weapon.

if the kwan dao hits first, the sword stops. and vice versa.
its a prac vs prac question.

however, kwan dao is heavy and if the weilder took big loose swings, or wasn't strong enough to really control the weapon then the swordsman would find many pockets of entry available.

the kwan dao has more defensive abilty vs a sword than the sword has vs the kwan dao coming down on it.

also, rattan staff vs for real broadsword is not a good idea. I like staff but a for real machete or chinese broadsword will cut through it with relative ease. with enough strength, even teh hardwood staffs don't stand a lot of chance if a real broadsword or machete is used. (after all aren't these blade types used to harvest bamboo and cane and etc etc? :p )

i would give even bets on both because it depends on the weilder.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
jian easily.

physics. fast thrusting weapon + mobilty vs. slow powerful slashing weapon.

Jian comes out of the gate with thrusts and weaves inside, too close for efficient kwandao work.


When weapons became based upon personal combat vs. war the "rapier" like weapon became the champion with good reason. ST00 just climbed down the correct's chimney and left it some presents.

[David Jamieson]

i disagree mk.

i'd say the question is moot in context.
all bladed weapons were renedered inadequate with teh advent of teh gun.

up til that point, both jian and kwan dao had their users and were still used.

[red5angel]

up til that point, both jian and kwan dao had their users and were still used

yep. arguing which weapon was better is like arguing which punch is better a jab or a hook. Both have their uses and if both are used effectively then they both work.

[MasterKiller]

The context here is a two-man duel.

If we're talking riding into combat on horseback against 1,000 angry Chinamen, then Kwan Dao wins. But that's not the context of this particular predicament.

I'm not saying Kwan Dao is useless off horseback. I love big weapons. I'm a monk-spade man, myself. But, against a sword, you better be fast with that big ass blade. You're not going to get many chances to miss.

[SimonM]

Yeah but we don't necessarily practice weapons because we expect to use them in combat on a regular basis.

I am aware that no matter how good I get with a sword I will probably never actually need to do any more than "weapon sparring" but I still think that in addition to the more practical aspects of martial arts weapon forms are worth learning. After all if nobody ever learns these arts they will disappear.

And if some cataclysm hits the world bullets may quickly become in short supply and then the survivors who know how to handle a blade may have heightened survival chances.

:D ;) :p

Ok, so the last point is a joke but you get my point.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Drop the kwan dao and use an eyebrow height staff, mind the fingers...there's a matchup for you.

hardly. The jian would win easily.

What part of sharp thrusting weapon defeats slashing/blunt weapon in solo combat do you not understand?

Ex. let's take a guy like our very own Gene Ching, who is a very good western fencer and give him a saber, or jian weapon and match him against just about anyone else on this forum with a staff.

9 of 10 says that Gene stabs a vital target immediately before the staff can even block

and even if so, the followup attack takes the staff holder so far off center that he will not recover to counter.



no contest. History has shown us this time and time again.

[Meat Shake]

Meatshake swings staff like a baseball bat and breaks crappy wooden jian leaving opponent defenseless.
Meatshake snaps staff on his knee like the angry drunken oaf he is, and now has two smashing weapons. Meatshake wins by smiting his opponent with a staff made into two.
!!!!!!!
:eek:
!!!!!!!

[FuXnDajenariht]

well wasn't musashi defeated by a staff wielder which spawned the muso sumthin sumthin style. that might be a bad example tho since he might of been using the bokken by then. someone has to correct me on that.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Originally posted by FuXnDajenariht
well wasn't musashi defeated by a staff wielder which spawned the muso sumthin sumthin style. that might be a bad example tho since he might of been using the bokken by then. someone has to correct me on that.

1. He was beat with an oar if the "story" is true.

2. a katana is another slashing weapon. A jian's style of combat is not even remotely comparable.


I can't wait until someone tells me they are going to counter the staff's strike with a hard block. :rolleyes:

[SimonM]

Um... not me; with a Jian that is a stupid thing. Now if I were using a Claymore.... Then it would be definately a hard block situation but Claymores and Jian are about as similar as sniping rifles and howitzers.

[Meat Shake]

What about one of those japanese short staffs?

[MasterKiller]

I've been hit by a staff (hard) and kept going. It stings, it can even break bones, but it's not a one-hit fight stopper. That's why you practice smashing the ground so much, so you can hit the guy AGAIN once you knock him down to make sure he isn't getting up.

I've never been stabbed or sliced deep, but I imagine I wouldn't put up much of a fight after that...at least not so much that they would have to stab me again.

[norther practitioner]

Well, if it were me, I'd stab you a few more times, prob. in the leg or something...

I'm just like that.:D

[SiuHung]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
hardly. The jian would win easily.

What part of sharp thrusting weapon defeats slashing/blunt weapon in solo combat do you not understand?

Ex. let's take a guy like our very own Gene Ching, who is a very good western fencer and give him a saber, or jian weapon and match him against just about anyone else on this forum with a staff.

9 of 10 says that Gene stabs a vital target immediately before the staff can even block

and even if so, the followup attack takes the staff holder so far off center that he will not recover to counter.



no contest. History has shown us this time and time again.

total poop...

Ever read the Secret History of the Sword by Christophe Amberger? There is a very interesting account of an Englishman who defeats several rapier wielding Spaniards using a staff.

Gene may be a skilled fencer, of that I've no doubt, but with two individuals of equal skill the advantage goes to reach and power.

Of course I don't expect you to agree...

How about spear vs. jian?

[ShaolinTiger00]

Originally posted by SiuHung
total poop...

Ever read the Secret History of the Sword by Christophe Amberger? There is a very interesting account of an Englishman who defeats several rapier wielding Spaniards using a staff.

Gene may be a skilled fencer, of that I've no doubt, but with two individuals of equal skill the advantage goes to reach and power.

Of course I don't expect you to agree...

How about spear vs. jian?

Actually I own the book.
and throughout history you'll always be a able to find "accounts" or remarkable examples. but these are the exception.. not the rule.

Your remark "but with two individuals of equal skill the advantage goes to reach and power." only applies when the weapons are similar. (ex. 2 thrusting weapons, 2 slashing weapons)

spear vs jian? If the spear lands first, he wins. If he misses, He is toast. - spear is great on the edge of an attack, horrible in close. esp as the jian user has a free hand to trap the spear.

Spears work in formations. from horses (and vs. horsees)and atop battlements.

[FuXnDajenariht]

hey thanks man. thats how i remember the story going. i dont think ST00 gives the staff enough credit. you can kick much ass with it if you know what ur doing. a person isn't completely helpless with a polearm versus a heavier sword. you would use more evasion/deflection techniques if you had to defend yourself. its common sense. its like knowing not to try and block a sword with your forearm if you get caught unarmed.

[SiuHung]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
Actually I own the book.
and throughout history you'll always be a able to find "accounts" or remarkable examples. but these are the exception.. not the rule.

Your remark "but with two individuals of equal skill the advantage goes to reach and power." only applies when the weapons are similar. (ex. 2 thrusting weapons, 2 slashing weapons)

spear vs jian? If the spear lands first, he wins. If he misses, He is toast. - spear is great on the edge of an attack, horrible in close. esp as the jian user has a free hand to trap the spear.

Spears work in formations. from horses (and vs. horsees)and atop battlements.

So ST00, in your experience fighting other weapons with the jian, which ones were most difficult to deal with, and against which ones did you easily defeat your foe? When you're in formation, which weapon do you prefer to use as a back up for close quarters combat? Does fighting on horseback vs. atop battlements affect this preference?

[ShaolinTiger00]

Originally posted by FuXnDajenariht
i dont think ST00 gives the staff enough credit. you can kick much ass with it if you know what ur doing. a person isn't completely helpless with a polearm versus a heavier sword.

Shut up. Listen. Learn.

We're not talking about a heavy sword here. You cannot compare a slashing, cutting saber, knife, to a jian. apples and oranges. a completely different style both offensive and defensive.




So ST00, in your experience fighting other weapons with the jian, which ones were most difficult to deal with, and against which ones did you easily defeat your foe? When you're in formation, which weapon do you prefer to use as a back up for close quarters combat? Does fighting on horseback vs. atop battlements affect this preference?

Your sarcasm is the byproduct of a losing argument. History gives us the support to base these facts upon.

Who gives a jian wielder a fit? a bowman! thunk!

close quarter weapon? - the broadsword. the jian was a dueling weapon! mano y mano. - unarmored men. - just like the renaisance of western europe, they were used by men of rank, & society.

"The spear (ch'iang/qiang) is as ancient as China. Not only is it considered to be the oldest military weapon in China, the spear was originally developed as a horse soldier's weapon. Before 400 B.C., foot soldiers used either a nine foot spear or an eighteen foot spear. These spears combined a thrusting point with a hooking or slicing blade."

Did I step into the Kung Fu Twilight Zone? Why am I the one who has to educate YOU guys on the facts about the history of Chinese weapons. but it does not suprise me that kungfu guys don't know these things... it's just another symptom of the disconnection from realistic fighting .

[SiuHung]

Your sarcasm is the byproduct of a losing argument. History gives us the support to base these facts upon.

Who gives a jian wielder a fit? a bowman! thunk!

close quarter weapon? - the broadsword. the jian was a dueling weapon! mano y mano. - unarmored men. - just like the renaisance of western europe, they were used by men of rank, & society.

"The spear (ch'iang/qiang) is as ancient as China. Not only is it considered to be the oldest military weapon in China, the spear was originally developed as a horse soldier's weapon. Before 400 B.C., foot soldiers used either a nine foot spear or an eighteen foot spear. These spears combined a thrusting point with a hooking or slicing blade."

Did I step into the Kung Fu Twilight Zone? Why am I the one who has to educate YOU guys on the facts about the history of Chinese weapons. but it does not suprise me that kungfu guys don't know these things... it's just another symptom of the disconnection from realistic fighting . [/B]

LOL ST00, I was giving you crap because you were coming off as "Mr. Weapons Knowledge". I really don't give much credence at all to kung fu weapons despite the fact that I train in the empty hand aspects of Hung Gar. Personally I think that the vast majority of CMA weapons are totally outdated and/or misunderstood. Really, if I wanted to fight with weapons I'd be looking to train with those who are still using them or at least coming the closest to doing so. That being said, I'm not hearing much about jian practitioners whooping it up with the dog brothers or anything like that...:D But who knows...maybe some day...

[FuXnDajenariht]

how bout you go fukk urself a-hole? ;)

who do you think you are telling me to shut up? just cuz you might be wrong? your officially my ***** boy ST00.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Originally posted by FuXnDajenariht
how bout you go fukk urself a-hole? ;)

who do you think you are telling me to shut up? just cuz you might be wrong? your officially my ***** boy ST00.

OWN3D (http://www.digitalend.com/pics/ownedgun.jpg)

NEXT!

btw: While the dog bros. are pretty cool in the stickfighting world, if they were to go stick vs. sword they'd be skewered. but they know this. they are practical guys.

[FuXnDajenariht]

riiiight....

anyway. what exactly do you know about the jian? seeing as a large part of jian training is done by forms in many of styles..... but oh i forgot, forms are usless in your opinion. and since your the the kung fu expert in this forum, you do know many styles have sword vs staff sets dont you?

i wont even get into the english quarterstaff. ever heard the english saying "the greatest fear of a swordsman was the quarterstaff"? im sure you have tho since your such a history expert. you seem to know more than men who had to actually fight with weapons in life and death situations and they seem to think highly of the staff in most countries. those are my sources.....but your all scientific and what not. :rolleyes:

[ShaolinTiger00]

Originally posted by FuXnDajenariht
riiiight....

anyway. what exactly do you know about the jian? seeing as a large part of jian training is done by forms in many of styles..... but oh i forgot, forms are usless in your opinion. and since your the the kung fu expert in this forum, you do know many styles have sword vs staff sets dont you?



You're just not very smart are you son? I'll say this one more time. WE WERE NOT TALKING ABOUT A DAO VS. A SPEAR OR STAFF. Get this thru your head. I've only said that about 3 times. try some reading comprehension or just keep your mouth shut. staff vs. spear? - always a dao.



i wont even get into the english quarterstaff. ever heard the english saying "the greatest fear of a swordsman was the quarterstaff"? im sure you have tho since your such a history expert. you seem to know more than men who had to actually fight with weapons in life and death situations and they seem to think highly of the staff in most countries. those are my sources.....but your all scientific and what not. :rolleyes:

Now I'm certain, you're just thick headed..

Do you know why this was said re: the quarterstaff? BECAUSE THE ENGLISH LONGSWORD WAS A SLASHING WEAPON! You cannot compare it to a jian and attempt to make the same analogy.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Seriously guys.. Learn to admit when you're wrong and just STFU.

[FuXnDajenariht]

what the **** are you blabbling about? ok clarify once and for all so i can own you. :p

[ShaolinTiger00]

Originally posted by FuXnDajenariht
ok clarify once and for all


I rest my case your honor. (http://www.digitalend.com/pics/sig_arnold.jpg)

[SiuHung]

Out of curiosity...

Who is still swordfighting actively these days with live blades, and what are thier experiences?

[FuXnDajenariht]

your stupid is showing *****boy

[ShaolinTiger00]

Originally posted by SiuHung



This is where we depend on history's experience to show us the truth. How hard is this to understand? If slashing/cutting weapons were superior, everyone would have had an axe on their hip instead of a rapier.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Originally posted by FuXnDajenariht
your stupid is showing *****boy

The Power of Christ Compels You! (http://www.digitalend.com/pics/dogbert1.gif)

[tug]

I like wood personally, it's more practical. SimonM mentioned something that is a hot topic IMO - why do you practice sword and staff sparring when in this day and age it is not feasible to actually carry a sword around "just in case".

I like to think of the sparring and forms as practice (obviously), so that when you are on the street without your usual weapon, and something goes down, you may/will be better prepared to find a broomstick or mop handle to weild. I believe that you would have a better advantage against your opponent, especially if your opponent doesn't have anything but his fists.

Is this making sense? I had it all put together in my head, but it didn't come out like I wanted.

Anyway, this is what I'm saying - practice with impractical weapons doesn't mean you can't take what you learn from it with you everywhere you go.

[FuXnDajenariht]

the whole point of ur disagreement with me is because i said staffs aren't disadvantaged against thrusting weapons am i correct? now lets think about this logically. the one weapon that would have an advantage against the staff would be a slashing/cutting weapon. if the possibility of the cutting the **** thing is half is gone then who has the advantage? the sword wielder with one point of attack or the staff wielder with 2 ends to attack with? the staff would obviously be much more versatile i would think. it can be used to full advantage or it can be used like a sword to slash and or thrust. infact, in england the quarterstaff was used more as a sword with the grip at one end than any other way. and i wasn't aware that the katana has no thrusting techniques. silly me........ i wish sumthin useful would come out of your piehole as much as you open it, but i guess ur content to post pics like this is a 2th grade show and tell. :p

[red5angel]

and even if so, the followup attack takes the staff holder so far off center that he will not recover to counter.

you'd be surprised what a step in can do, especially if it seems you have over committed.

[FuXnDajenariht]

This is where we depend on history's experience to show us the truth. How hard is this to understand? If slashing/cutting weapons were superior, everyone would have had an axe on their hip instead of a rapier. [/B]

lol yea...i guess a large portion of Asia didn't know the superiority of the rapier. those poor misguided souls in japan alone. sumone should of told them their katana were useless. it being primarily an inferior slashing weapon according to you oh knowlegdeable one.... and exactly how many countries were conquered by enemies primarily wielding rapiers?

[red5angel]

How hard is this to understand? If slashing/cutting weapons were superior, everyone would have had an axe on their hip instead of a rapier.

who is "everyone" in this statment?

[SiuHung]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
Out of curiosity...

Who is still swordfighting actively these days with live blades, and what are thier experiences?

This is where we depend on history's experience to show us the truth. How hard is this to understand? If slashing/cutting weapons were superior, everyone would have had an axe on their hip instead of a rapier. [/B][/QUOTE]

So Christphe Amberger's book isn't any good? It's a shame he wasted his time writing it then. What historical sources can I get the goods from? I was really hoping you had some first hand knowledge of sword fighting against different weapons to share...but I guess not.:(

[David Jamieson]

http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/paradoxes.html

just thought i would post that seeing as this is becoming a "sword" thread.

there are plenty of examples of historical art and documentation in regards to which types of weapons were suitable for which purposes on a battlefield, in h2h combat etc etc.

A lot of the material in the west comes from the annals of the roman empire.

the short sword or gladius was commented upon often as teh superior weapon for close combat.

kwan dao in context to western weaponry would be along the lines of the Halberd, Bardiche, Voulge, Guisarme or any other pole cleaver type weapon.

yes, it mostly slashes but it only needs one hit and it has the reach advantage and it can be used to thrust because of the pointiness of the tip.

if one were to be in a situation where the had to use a kwan dao, then it's safe to say they would be in an open area. In an enclosed space the sword would have advantage.

ultimately it depends on the weilder and a combination of skill and luck. :p

[FuXnDajenariht]

on lighter note....

whos getting me this for christmas? :D

http://www.casiberia.com/cas_website/product_details.asp?id=SD4126L

or if this is more in your price range.



http://www.casiberia.com/cas_website/product_details.asp?id=SD4116L



:D come on im worth it. you know you wanna. wheres the christmas cheer and all that?























come on shelley...coooome ooon

[David Jamieson]

a friend of mine who operates his own school has one of the casiberia darn daos.

It is quite sweeeeeeet and I admit I haven't seen the quality of a sword like that anywhere else so far.

anyway, something to think about for those of you who can afford to lay out for crafstmanship.

[SimonM]

I never thought people would become so heated over my little 'can anyone give me tips in this sparring situation' thread.

To be honest I can't remember how much I have said on why I practice sword so I think I will drop a few points on this issue.

1: I know that in most parts of the world I could not practically carry a sword for the purpose of self defense. In most of the regions of the world where one could get away with that the potential adversaries carry big guns and swords just don't have the range of AK-47s. So, practical self defense is right out of the picture.

2: As my sifu says; everything is connected. Techniques I learn with the sword can help me cross-train to use knives, short staves, etc. The outcome may not be the same but frequently the method of moving will be simmilar. These are weapons that I could end up using in real combat. Now you might say: but why not train with knives and short staves then - wouldn't that be more practical? I do train with knives and short staves too but as I said before my reasons for using the sword are not practical self defense. In other words, there is some benefit as a side effect that can improve combat.

3: To some people the sword is a thing of beauty. It is also a tool. Now as beautiful as a hammer is, a man who buys one might want to learn how to hammer nails - even if he never intends to - simply so that his beautiful hammer is more than just a decoration. Likewise a person who would otherwise acquire a sword (or swords) for their astetics may want to know how to use the swords even if it is unlikely that they ever will have to.

4: The art of swordsmanship is a skill that is not in great demand. It also is an art. Art has intrinsic value and so some people will go to great length to preserve it. If an art is preserved than it will not be as hard to re-create it later. An examination of the problems with organizations like the Society for Creative Anachronism can show how hard it is to re-create a clear replica of a lost fighting art after the fact.

5: Weapon sparring is fun and gives me a workout. Anything that gets me sweating and does so in a novel, entertaining manner that can capture my interest and imagination is a good thing in my books. :D

[Liokault]

Am I out of step here, or is the main problem in a kwon do v jian fight going to be that the kwon do weilder is going to be bearing down in the jian guy at 40 mph on horse back as the kwon do was a cavalry weapon?

[SimonM]

<LOL> You must understand my brother, my sparring partner in this particular situation is infatuated by poles. If it's a stick with a blade on the end he likes it even more usually. He is not a horseback sort of guy though.