For those who cross train

[Phil Redmond]

I took these from the movie called "The Throwdown".
Since I'm new to BJJ I'd like to know what to people here who crosstrain think of these moves/techniques. I know that the fight scenes are choreographed but are any of these techniques really applicable? I want to be as familar with the grappling arts as possible so don't laugh too hard at my query. It would be benificial for all of us to know what to look out for. Thanks in advance,
PR

http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/throwdown1.MPG

http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/throwdown2.MPG

[old jong]

Watch it Phil!... I trained in judo till recently and it is hard on guys our age!...I believe BJJ is similar in intensity and We don't heal as fast as we used too anymore.Be careful with your joints if you want to be able to practice your Wing Chun as usual.
I had to do it with a dislocated shoulder and a bad elbow for a very long healing time.It's a pain in the ass.

[Phil Redmond]

OJ, Thanks for the tip. I am starting a "little" late in BJJ.
And I know about aching joints. Boy, do I know.
Phil

[old jong]

IMO the best thing to be learned first in that kind of endeavor is:Never wait to long before tapping out!...:) Chokes sucks and armbars are no good for us!...:D

[old jong]

As you will learn to move your hips on the ground,you will surely find yourself taking the back of some guys. Be carefull of your nose because many tend to over react and headbutt with the back of their head.It really suck!...;)

[Nick Forrer]

Phil:

My POV

The first two throws/sweeps - fine no problem

The escape from the scarf hold/head and arm position where he brings the leg back and hooks the head - a bit iffy. Works if the guys head is up but hard if he knows how to hold the position. Better escapes IMO.

Escape/reversal from north south/upper four quarters position - IMO the iffiest of the lot. Looks good on film but better ways to escape.

On BJJ

In general: relax, breath, be patient/methodical, dont spazz out, avoid using strength, think about getting position and maintaining it before going for a submission, dont be afraid to tap quickly (especially if caught in an arm bar), leave your ego behind (you will get tapped and lots to begin with), when you get tapped ask what you did wrong and what you should do next time, dont put people in vice like headlocks (its just annoying).

[reneritchie]

BJJ isn't as injurious in my experience as judo, because you don't do as much standup, and so don't take as many bone-crushing falls. You do get the occaisional joint injuries (knees seem most common), and sometimes ribs or incidental black-eyes, cut lips, etc. but if you train smart, tap without ego, and work technically as possible, you can have a healthy career.

Who are you training with?

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
I took these from the movie called "The Throwdown".
Since I'm new to BJJ I'd like to know what to people here who crosstrain think of these moves/techniques.

http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/throwdown1.MPG That was judo, not BJJ- slightly different flavors in the two systems.

- The throws and takedowns were pretty realistic.
- Not too sure about getting that sweep after the takedown, but it might happen. Chances are, the bottom guy would have to go into more of an open guard position first.
- The side hold down was a judo scarfhold. Most BJJ guys would switch to a belly down side control from there. As far as the leg scissors from the scarfhold, it works, but usually when combined with a couple of other counters.
- The sweep from the north south was pretty unrealistic. The guy on the bottom needed to bring his knees under the opponnent's arms and into his biceps and trap his arms. Fron this position, the sweep will work.

[anerlich]

I could only download the first clip. The second one wouldn't work for me.

I agree with Nick pretty much. The throw and the sweep look effective enough, and they're jumping back up to their feet again pretty quick, sensible if you can except in a BJJ match.

The leg over the head thing shouldn't be that easy if the guy had good position in the scarf hold - generally speaking it's not a good idea, as it leaves your leg open for the other guy to hook it with his free hand (the one not around your head) and get you in quite a nasty spinal crank. A legbar is also possible, though pretty risky, esp. for the street.

Realistically, I'd say that probably 80% of BJJ techniques are only really suited to competition. I went to a Rigan Machado seminar for blue belt and above last year which was absolutely fascinating, but in reality most of the techniques had little likely street application - they were all things like counters to legbar counters, spinning to triangle from reverse spider guard, figure 4 leglock counter to an omaplata (which hurt like hell, but left both your legs a tangled knot that you'd have a hard time getting out of if one of his friends came along, plus how likely is someone to attempt an omoplata on you in a streetfight?)

However, the other 20% is probably stuff that if you don't have, you will be in deep trouble if someone tackles you or gets you on the ground. Being able to take someone down, get and hold kneeride and G&P gives you control over them you might not otherwise have and still allows you to run away quickly if reinforcements arrive. Similarly, basic pin escapes are essential - you might know it's stupid to put someone in mount in a barroom brawl because of multi opponent risks, but he might not, so you better have something to get out of there if he does what he's not supposed to and starts punching your face in.

you might not need to be able to do twenty variations of a triangle from there, but you do need to be able to get toa position where you can kick or sweep the guy effectively and then stand up (like on the video).

All up it looked pretty realistic and unchoreographed, save for the silly facial expressions of determination ... which probably meant it had been pretty well choreographed, since in my experience few BJJ matches are as fast-moving and action packed as this.

I agree with Rene that BJJ seems less injury prone than judo -groundwork doesn't seem to place the same stresses on knees and ankles, and there's not the same impact from ippon throws. Most of the bad injuries I've seen have been the result of grappling in the clinch, especially when both guys get tired. They fall in a heap and someone gets a knee or ankle popped.

Just work with guys you can trust, don't be afraid to tap, and avoid dangerous techniques like heel hooks and neck cranks when rolling. The only moderately bad injuries I've had were a cracked rib from a VERY strong and heavy guy I should have tapped out to much earlier, and a popped ankle from an overeagerly applied heelhook.

[Phil Redmond]

Sorry guys. I misspelled the name on the second clip. It will work now.
PR

[Ultimatewingchun]

Have a slightly different take on the first video than Nick does...those throws are hard to get in the context their shown (ie.- judo match while wearing a gi)...in NHB...throws have to be set up with strikes/knees/elbows...and most of all - an unbalancing technique before the throw - such as a pull or a push.

As to the head scissor as a way out of the head and arm position (known as the scarf hold in judo/jiu jitsu)...it CAN work...if it's been set up first by something else (ie. - if you manage to get his head going back with your free hand...as in an eye gouge or some other ripping technique).

But it's not easy- because when held right...the head and arm is tough to escape from.

And in Catch Wrestling...when the free hand comes up to try and attack the face/head...you can transition to the cross chest position while seizing the hand/arm that came up and finish with a top wristlock (known in jiu jitsu as the key lock)....making sure that you elbow him in the face with your arm that was originally holding his arm as you transition to the cross chest position.

Most important of all, though...stay off your knees when you go to the cross chest position - so he's carrying all of your body weight.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by anerlich
figure 4 leglock counter to an omaplata Can you give the details to this counter? It sounds interesting.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Just watched the second clip...liked the first throw...some of the others weren't very realistic...especially the extra rolling moves that were used leading up to the arm bar...liked the kickout as a way to escape the armbar - might work with it a little...but I suspect it's more of a show move that can easily be countered by the guy with the arm bar - as well as the fact that a high pressure arm bar might preclude any attempt at a kick out in the first place.

[Phil Redmond]

Victor, I presumed that some or maybe most of the moves were show. It's good to hear the responses from those who know about grappling. It would be a terrible thing to get caught in unfamiliar ground (no pun intended), in a fight. That's why I respect people who do cross train.
PR

[couch]

Phil,

As you're just coming into the BJJ thing in your MA career now how do you feel you will apply it to what you know?

Do you feel that you will take what you learn and use it as is, or let it aid you in looking at your Wing Chun in a different light?

What have you other Wing Chun Grapplers have done?

Just curious to the approach. No means to highjack the thread.

Almost Christmas,
Kenton/Couch

[Merryprankster]

BJJ is WAY less traumatic on the body than Judo.

For the record, I was hurt less boxing though...

[Theorb]

Phil say:I know that the fight scenes are choreographed but are any of these techniques really applicable?

depend if you making movie then moves very good if no then maybe just stilly dance slow down video you see not real not close not good unless you director or something


:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[Merryprankster]

Phil,

Almost all the throws and what not were applicable. The set-ups might be a bit different, but yeah, the techniques were generally sound.

The exceptions to my comments above have already been pointed out, so no need to do a play by play.

I disagree with UWC on the throws in the first video, because I've done many judo throws without the gi. That said, he's correct that ENTRIES must be set up with striking, but once clinched, you're home free provided you know how to clinch well (control of the clinch=controlling what happens, be it punching, knees, elbows or throws/takedowns).

[Ultimatewingchun]

After reading Merryprankster's post - I went back and reread my first post about the first video clip...and he's right - because I realize now that I left out a key word that changes everything I meant to say...so with that word added (which I'll capitalize)....that post should have read:

Have a slightly different take on the first video than Nick does...those throws are NOT hard to get in the context their shown (ie.- judo match while wearing a gi)...but in NHB...throws have to be set up with strikes/knees/elbows...and most of all - an unbalancing technique before the throw - such as a pull or a push.

[anerlich]

Can you give the details to this counter? It sounds interesting.

Jeez, just as well I take notes:

It only works against an omoplat attempt where the guy locks his legs in a triangle fashion. It's probably not a "true" figure 4 leglock either, though judge for yourself.

From my notes:

You are on your knees, he has attempted an omoplata on your right arm with his right knee triangling his left foot. Grab the inside of your right thigh to prevent him cranking your arm and post up with your left foot. Reach around with your left hand to grab his belt on his right side, trapping his right shin against your chest. You can press in from here. If he arches his hips off the floor to relieve the pressure, roll him over his right shoulder onto his stomach, join your hands together around his left leg and crush.

Hope that makes sense?

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by anerlich
Hope that makes sense? Yeah, nice. I'll try it out tonight.

[Phil Redmond]

Thanks for the replies so far. I have lots to learn still.
Phil

[Redboat]

Sifu Phil,
I must agree that as you age BJJ can be tough on the old bones....Nevertheless, I have found Ving Tsun and BJJ go together very well. One thing that has helped me in BJJ is to buy a bubbadummy. @ bubbadummy.com. It helps me get the extra repetitions that I need. Another is that I only take private lessons anymore at my age. My injuries have been cut way down. Finally, it is my understanding that the Germans have added ground work with their Wing Chun...
Best regards on your trianing.
Redboat@bubbadummy.com