how many punches.

[panos]

This was actually brought in an other discussion but i wonder what you all think about it.
How many different punches do you know?(WC punches that is). I used to do WT and then we had the straight punch, a rounded punch, and one that loked like an uperrcut. The last two were in advanced levels. I am in William Cheungs lineage now and i have seen the two first,but the round one is executed different.

[Ish]

I only practice straight punches although i've seen my older kung fu brothers using uppercuts in the third form. Actually now i think about it theres another type in the second form after the stepping bong saus.

[Jeff Brown]

bong sao becomes punch, tan sao becomes punch, biu ji becomes punch.....

[Roy D. Anthony]

Good Answer, are you sure you are not from the same family? :)

[Jeff Brown]

Aren't we all part of one big happy family? ;)

[Martial Joe]

I only practice the straight punch, but I have been in a fight once and I threw an upper cut.
Who knows why...it must be very siular to WC punching...

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[EmptyCup]

straight punch, backfist-to-straight punch, little uppercut

[S.Teebas]

Which form is the back fist in?

[Martial Joe]

None...a backfist shouldnt be used in wing chun...

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[edward]

straight, upper cut, low punch, inside whip, outside whip, inside diagonal, outside diagonal, hammer fist.

you can find all these punches within the 3 forms

[Martial Joe]

Edward...explain...this is interesting...

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[edward]

all 8 punches are not things that are created out of the blue... anything that you do in wing chun should always be traced back into the forms... if you can't find it in the form, then your making the stuff up..

the 8 punches that i refer to are all in the forms, from 1 to 3...

take 1st form for example, you can find the regular punch, upper cut, and low punch, inside whip... all in the first form.

if you need more detail just ask

[Ish]

I need more details about all these punches in the first form. I thought there was only one punch in this form

[Jeff Brown]

If you know all the moves of Siu Lim Tao, what's the problem?

If someone of great importance were to tell you, "There is only one punch in Wing Chun," would you commit to that one punch ;) that opens and closes Siu Lim Tao, even if you suspected that a tan sao could be a punch (should you close your hand), and so on?

Heaven forbid anyone other than a complete expert ever come into combat with such mental constraints, as he or she is sure to be pummelled.

[Sihing73]

Hello Martial Joe,

You said a backfist should not be used in Wing Chun. I would ask why not? Does it violate any of the principles of Wing Chun? There are several techniques I could think of which use a similiar energy adn mvoement as a backfist. A backfist is not as powerful as a straight punch but can be done faster.

Try this;
Take up a Wu Sau Bong Sau and perform Lop Sau like normal. However, this time rather than dropping your elbow and converting your Bong to a Straight Punch, rotate the arm and strike with a backfist or even convert it into a Fak Sau. Would this be an acceptable method of using a "backfist" type of movement in Wing Chun?

Just curious, I never use the word never :D , LOL.

Peace,

Dave

[NafAnal]

In the short amount of time i did wing chun my instructor was very big on backfists, only he called them the "sidepunch" wierd eh? any idea what lineage he was? Anybody had any experience with an instruxtor who uses these sidepunches? I was afraid to ask... (heehee)

[fmann]

The WT adage I've learned is "One punch, many angles."

In other words, whether it's a "round punch" or "uppercut", regardless of what angle the punch is coming from, it all adheres to the same principles. hence it's really one punch, but coming from different angles, so it looks different.

SH73,
I agree. In a playful exchange with a friend, I did a "JKD" lop-sau backfist and it works (mostly cause it's fast and seems natural from that position).

[EmptyCup]

MARTIAL JOE

i did not say backfist...i said backfist-to-straight punch. Maybe that was a little too confusing...what i mean is that is begins it's arc like a backfist but changes to a straight punch.

TEEBAS

it's in chum kiu, first section, after the lan saus, the punch begins at the elbow and moves out, therby protecting from a punch to your right...that way, any incoming punch will catch your bridge...

SIHING73

you are correct. Even though backfist is not taught to you tradtionally, why can't it be used? When people press my hand down too much in chi sau, i flip it up into a quick snappy backfist...it's faster than straight punching...

[reneritchie]

While not a horizontal back fist as some may imagine, the Kwai Choi (which strikes with the back of the knuckles) is present in most WCK branches (though some will say its not, if you watch them Chi Sao, the movement to which I'm referring will often be executed). It's in the sets, more so in Sum Nung WCK and other branches, but also most versions of Yip Man WCK I've seen (though most do not seem to consider it such)

Dave (SH73) gives a good description of one of the core movements. If it helps, convert Bong to Tan but instead of leaving the hand open, close it and strike at the same time. Just economical.

Some in Yip Man system do consider the move in Chum Kiu to be a chow choi-like uppercut, and the move in Biu Jee to be a hook punch (some do ginger fist instead there).

Rgds,

RR

[wingchunalex]

i haven't learned the names of all 8 yet, but it looks like someone else has. about the back fist. i personally think it has less power than the straight punches. i perfer to use inside whip punch were some people use the back fist. but your right sihing, the knife hand chop has the same energy as the backfist.

know yourself don't show yourself, think well of yorself don't tell of yourself. lao tzu

[reneritchie]

Hi Alex,

In my experience, Kwai Choi (aka WCK backfist) has *different* power from Chung Choi (thrusting punch). The power can be called Bien Ging (Whip Power) but tends to focus a smaller area and instead of through, puts power in (I've experienced this from some good WCK people and also some good Wu Taiji people and in neither case was it pleasent and in some I thought I might rather take a Chung Choi ;)

Rgds, RR

[edward]

if you use the backfist, more than likely you'll do damage to your hand..

[Sihing73]

Hi edward,

Why would using a backfist be more likely to cause damge to your hands than any other type of punch? Also, the concept of the backfist can be used to strike with a Fak if you don't like using the knuckles. I would tend to think the backfist would not be as powerful but don't see how it would be any more dangerous to the hands then a traditional straight punch.

Peace,

Dave

[Jeff Brown]

what's the best way to build power in the Wing Chun punch (ie the standard one that ends Siu Lim Tao)? air punches? use a bag?

[edward]

certain sytsems do inside whip motion differently, there are those that use the fist motion to strike with, and there are those that use the backfist.

just from a structure stand point, using the backfist doesn't compare to that of the punch. When a punch connects its, not the knuckles that only make contact but the entire first, if emphasis is placed on the knuckles to make initial contact, then what you do is expose the punch to a possible collapse. thus, imagine a triangle hitting an object at an angle, instead of flat.

thus, taking inside whip for example, the motion of it functions just like a sword, when you do inside whip if you use it as the fist to strike, then your using 2 bones or you could say the edge of the sword to strike against your opponent. if however you went the route of a back fist, that's like attacking someone with a sword, but instead of using the blade, you'd be hitting it flat.

[Sihing73]

Hello edward,

Comparativily speaking, the straight punch does provdie a more solid and powerful strike then a backfist. However, I still don't see any reason why a backfist puts your hand in any greater danger than the traditional straight punch.

A lot of times the striking area in a backfist is with the two knuckles closest to the thumb. But, it is also quite possible to use the backfist motion and strike with the entire back of the hand as well. Then again, you could use the backfist motion and strike with a Fak Sau or even a Wu Sau as well. So many possibilities so little time ;)

I guess the point I am getting at is that if you perform a backfist, or any other technique, with poor form or connect with the wrong surface point, you can cause damage to your hand. I just view this a s more a failing of the person doing the movement rather than a problem with the movement itself.

Take the ridgehand for example. Structuraly I can think of many "safer" and more "powerful" techniques. Yet, there are many people who use this very technique to break things. Not my first choice but I certainly would not say it was ineffective. Of course, just like the backfist, if your striking surface is off or you are not properly forming the technique then you could get hurt.

The advantage of the backfist is that it can sometimes be applied quicker than the straight punch, depending on your starting position. One of my favorite techniques is to throw a punch, my opponent blocks the punch. If he makes contact with my wrist I rotate the punch into a backfist type of strike, I opt more for Fak though, while Loping with the other hand. Very fast and very effective, at least for me. I could do the same type of thing using the straight punch but have found the backfist type of attack to be slightly quicker.

Still, I am enjoying this dialogue as it is a good topic for discussion.

Peace,

Dave

[Roy D. Anthony]

There is a backfist at the end of Siu Lim Tao a back fist in chum kiu at end of third section as done by Ip Man and also in Biu Jee.

[S.Teebas]

I cannot see where a backfist is present in the SLT. Can you be more specific?


S.Teebas

[Roy D. Anthony]

Sure, at the end of the siu lim tao form after the three punches. and a couple of other places but not all Ip Man families do it.

[Jeff Brown]

I think a lot of people immediately visualize the Bruce Lee backfist to the face move.

But the backfist can be used virtually anywhere, right?

"Once I have harnessed the power of the Sun, I will be UNSTOPPABLE!" -- Mini-Me

[shaolinboxer]

It's the one where you drive your knuckes into a target. ;)

"She ain't got no muscles in her teeth."
- Cat