Drills for the New Year.

[Mr Punch]

What's your favourite two-person drill?

I'm a traditionalist... I love lap sau drill.

I do three variations (well more, cos I do them without turning and with different turns too) and use all of them to lead into chi sao with more advanced chaps.

1) The 'standard' one I was taught in Sam Kwok's school. This uses a strong sideways lap on the turn, finishing with the elbow ideally a fist-and-a-thumb away from the hip (if the lap comes off), and a straight punch.

2) From my Lo Man Kam friend: a downwards lap, with the hand finishing by the hip, with a nice loose feeling in the elbow, and the 'punch' is a 'downwards-and-outwards' raking fist, with a relaxed crushing feel in the elbow.

3) From my Leung Ting friend: a very short, small forwards lap, and a very straight forwards punch, a very small-circle forward bong.

I also really like pak da... and unrehearsed one-twos, or one-two-threes, from wc or a boxing framework... but more about me later...! :D

So, what's yours?

[Kevin Bell]

Condtioning, Boxing, Milling, Condtioning, Boxing, Milling,Condtioning, Boxing, Milling.

Oh, and standing in stance rooted to middle earth - Nah just kidding:D :D :D

[Mr Punch]

Cheers... I was thinking more WC drills...

But since you answered... what kind of conditioning?

What's 'milling'?

And I asked about two-person drills... so what part of boxing are you talking about or were you just ignoring my question altogether?! :D

[Kevin Bell]

Milling:Gloving up and banging hell and leather out of each other. Fighting to find the answer.

Purpose? akin to immersing the inner tube of a bicycle applying pressure to find out where the leak is coming from and fixing that weakness,its drill to test your VT.

Milling originates from Boxing in the British Army apply it in a VT lesson its a great crack.When you said a Boxing framework i assumed you had Boxing experience.What part of Boxing was i talking about?, Moving about Sparring, Impact traing pad/bag work



Conditioning? Westside strength training, Pilates, Anaerobic workouts, Greasing the groove middle distance runs.Working with a partner to push me.

Dont get me wrong Lap Sau drills a good drill can build a whole art form of things into that. You asked favourite two person drills thats it for this week.

[Mr Punch]

I do have boxing experience. I train boxing in my shooto training. That's why I was asking what you were taking from boxing as a two-person drill...

and your answer is sparring, and also milling, which appears to be sparring...!

Well, that's sure a two-person drill...! :D Cheers!

I was thinking of pre-arranged, or partially pre-arranged, flow or sensitivity drills... but I didn't make that clear enough I suppose. And before anyone says it, I'm thinking apart from chi sao...! :rolleyes:

[Mr Punch]

123 views and one person has a favourite two-person drill?!

You can't be enjoying your wing chun very much...!

Oh well, Happy New Year!

[sihing]

I have two favorite drills. The first is a drill designed primarily to teach economy of movement while in Man Sao guard but it trains other attributes and skills also. 1 arm vs. 2 arms is a drill were the WC practitioner uses their one lead arm Man Sao only, with the other arm behind their back, against your partners random punching combination (this depends on the level of the student, meaning lower ranking students only defend against straights, lead and rear rounds, and then it progresses to more random combinations as the student moves up in rank). In my system we stand in side neutral depending on the lead arm, so if left Man Sao is lead then feet/knees/hips/shoulders point 45deg to the right, with feet a little wider than should width apart, this is the facing position when outside kicking range with opponent. We do not advocate circling of the opponent or allowing that from them either, rather if the opponent moves left we move left cutting them off, keeping their lead foot/knee always as close as possible to the center of our stance. The key to the drill in the beginning stages is to defend and then bring Man Sao back to center, later on after defending an attack can be launched or a simultaneous strike/trap can be used. Positioning is important in this drill, when it is correct it is easier to defend against the random attacks.

The second drill is an application of chi-Sao attributes. Utilizing the pak sao/chuen sao combination, the WC practitioner and partner line up with each other, the partner can throw any one of three combinations, Double Jab, Jab & rear Cross or Jab & Spinning Back fist. The WC person uses pak/chuen sao to counter all three but different footwork to follow up depending on which is thrown, and by what is felt once cheun sao makes contact with the lead jab elbow. For example, on the Jab & Cross combo, the WC person would pak/cheun the jab, but feel the jab elbow being brought right back the their partners side violently due to the shoulder turn required to allow the cross to complete and make contact. When this happens one would want to stay away from the cross hand side and turn the cheun sao into a bil sao and step with opposite foot in the same direction as the cross (move away from it) and simultaneously counter with a straight punch to the face.

These things are hard to describe on an internet forum and I will have to put them up on a clip someday soon...

James

[Vajramusti]

Mat sez-

And before anyone says it, I'm thinking apart from chi sao...!
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Mat- semantics.... lop sao variations are all part of chi sao.

Many of the "debates" on the forum is in part about semantics.

Improving lop sao and it's variations also helps in very very close quarters work.

[sihing]

I agree with Joy, any two man drill that involves contact is essentially chi-sao in allot of ways, even though contact reflexes may not be the principal attribute being learned in the drill, they do come out in anything that involves two people touching one another in a combative atmosphere.

James

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Vajramusti
Mat sez-

And before anyone says it, I'm thinking apart from chi sao...!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mat- semantics.... lop sao variations are all part of chi sao.

Many of the "debates" on the forum is in part about semantics.

Improving lop sao and it's variations also helps in very very close quarters work. Sure. I wasn't after a debate though... would it be too much to assume that people could actually understand without quibbling?! :D

My advanced lop sao drill turns into a kind of chi sao, but it's not a standard chi sao framework AFAIK.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by sihing
... two people touching one another in a combative atmosphere. I mean semantically, I wouldn't want my chi sao described as 'in a combative atmosphere'!

[Mr Punch]

Nice descriptions James. Except I don't recognize chuen sao...

[Vajramusti]

Mat sez-

My advanced lop sao drill turns into a kind of chi sao, but it's not a standard chi sao framework AFAIK.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What is " standard"? Depends on development.

One can go from single to double to lop and lat with variations and footwork.... and with appropriate protocols- attacks.

I havent visited ed's windy city wc site for a while- but he may have some of this kind of stuff on his site.

[Vajramusti]

Mat sez-

My advanced lop sao drill turns into a kind of chi sao, but it's not a standard chi sao framework AFAIK.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What is " standard"? Depends on development.

One can go from single to double to lop and lat with variations and footwork.... and with appropriate protocols- attacks.

[Mr Punch]

Yeah, OK, what is standard? I could ask how many of you do a lop sao drill into free chi sao/lat sao... ;)

But hey! Joy, what's your favourite two-person drill?!:D

[t_niehoff]

Hey, Mat, what is your favorite medicine?

"Favorite" isn't an issue -- we don't do a drill or take a medicine because we favor it or like it, we do it because we need it at the moment.

[Vajramusti]

Mat- depends on what you mean by a drill.

If you mean purely two person somewhat repetitive motions-
there are so many and I do not do them mechanically- learning something about the other person each time.

I cant say that i have a favorite... because i try to learn things that are not particularly my favorite. I vary my work outs a lot.

PS Of course I like lop sao with combinations.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
Hey, Mat, what is your favorite medicine?

"Favorite" isn't an issue -- we don't do a drill or take a medicine because we favor it or like it, we do it because we need it at the moment. Does that stop you developing favourite patterns of activity? It wasn't supposed to be a ****ing 'issue'! My apologies, even with all of my study of zen I didn't realize it was part of the remit of martial arts practice to become completely personality-free and anal.

Quite apart from which, if you don't want to answer don't answer! I started this thread as a bit of a light antidote to all the usual bickering crap...:rolleyes:

So, Terence, can I take it you don't have any favourite drills? Cheers, thanks for coming.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Vajramusti
Mat- depends on what you mean by a drill.

If you mean purely two person somewhat repetitive motions-
there are so many and I do not do them mechanically- learning something about the other person each time.Yep, that's what I meant. And no, I would hope it wasn't mechanical. The lop sao is great because it immediately shows you how tense your partner is, and their sense of flow... of course I would hope that many of wing chun's exercises do, but for me lop sao does particularly.
I cant say that i have a favorite... because i try to learn things that are not particularly my favorite.If you try to learn things which are not your favourite, that means you have favourites!!!?:D

Anyway, I know what you mean, thank you for your answer.

[sihing]

Originally posted by Mat
Nice descriptions James. Except I don't recognize chuen sao...

Mat,

I'm not sure but I think Chuen Sao is unique to TWC, but I could be wrong so know one quote me. Basically it translates as "Threading Arm", so if your lead right hand was out in front of you, your left arm would come underneath (but it be done from above also) the lead right elbow, and while maintain contact with the lead arm, shoot out straight in line with that arm, essentially replacing it. Its a effective movement and can be used for a variety of things. Check out the video clips from my Sifu's website and you will see them everywhere there...

James

[Vajramusti]

James-

Some biu motions do some of the functions you are calling chuen.
IMO. Good night folks.

[sihing]

Yes Joy, that may be true...I've seen footage from some different lineages of WC when performing the Bil Gee and executing a movement similar to Chuen sao..

James

[AmanuJRY]

I would have to say mixing poon sau, lop sau, etc. into a 'live' but not sparring free-for-all chi sau event.

....oh, wait, that would be chi sau.

Also, weapons sparring.;)

[Mr Punch]

Hehehe...:D thanks AmanuJRY!

Thanks James, I know the one... my sifu just called it 'threading hand'... and taught it more as a variation on biu jee than a separate tech.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


James/Joy:

I'm not sure but I think Chuen Sao is unique to TWC, but I could be wrong so know one quote me. Basically it translates as "Threading Arm",

Some biu motions do some of the functions you are calling chuen.
IMO. Good night folks.


***


What TWC calls Chuen Sao is more similar to the a typical usage of Biu as Joy pointed out. Its basically a Biu Sao used as a replacement hand more so rather than Chuen Kiu. Chuen and Biu are different skills!

Chuen Kiu is a common move in Leung Jan's WCK. The term "threading" is correct and it is a fairly good description of how the movement actually travels. While in San Jose I watched Hendrik also do the same Chuen Kiu skill.

Recenlty I was checking out some footage of the YKS and Mai Gei Wong Jong set and can see a lot of Chuen in their form even if they may not call it that. I am not sure what their term is for that skill. Yip Man's Jong set also has Chuen Kiu in it but I dont think thats the term for it.


Hope this helps!


Gotta run!



:)

[t_niehoff]

Mat wrote:

Does that stop you developing favourite patterns of activity?

**I don't do drills for their own sake, and I avoid "patterns" (though they are useful when beginning).

It wasn't supposed to be a ****ing 'issue'!

**It's what is behind the question.

My apologies, even with all of my study of zen I didn't realize it was part of the remit of martial arts practice to become completely personality-free and anal.

**Ah, OK.

Quite apart from which, if you don't want to answer don't answer!

**I gave an answer . . . just not one that you wanted, apparently.

I started this thread as a bit of a light antidote to all the usual bickering crap...

**Oh, thanks for your concern. Isn't that sweet?

So, Terence, can I take it you don't have any favourite drills?

**OK, here's my favorite drill: asking challenging questions.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
**OK, here's my favorite drill: asking challenging questions. Terence.
There are at least two interpretations of the word "challenging". Your questions seem to be more in the sense of "taking exception" to other people's positions as opposed to the more constructive attempts to "stimulating more in depth discussion".

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by t_niehoff

**It's what is behind the question. There was nothing behind the question. I'm fairly straightforward, I don't like ****ing about.
**OK, here's my favorite drill: asking challenging questions. You're not very good at it. I don't feel challenged at all. In fact it was a predictible response. Work harder.
**I don't do drills for their own sake, and I avoid "patterns" (though they are useful when beginning).So you never practice even SLT even when you don't particularly want to... every time you practice it you do it out of a deep feeling of meaning...? Actually, I don't really care.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by sihing
Mat,

I'm not sure but I think Chuen Sao is unique to TWC...James Well, my first school's teacher (Samuel Kwok's) gave it just as Threading Arm, but I'm pretty sure my partner from Victor Kan's school gives it as Chuen Sao.