Guess what? the history can be petty clear now.

[yellowpikachu]

Guess what?

Thus, I have heard in Asia ......


Since we can seperate History into Two sections: The Events and the Technical.


1, Events History

Another legend surface,


It was said that Fang Chih Nian of the white Crane Wing Chun is the daugther of Ming Last Emperor Zhong Zhen who commit sucide when Bejing was taken down.

And,

the princess was following Chen Yong Wah. Chen who was later Name Chen Chin Nan when he went to Taiwan with Zhen Cheng-Kung and starting the Underground anti Qing network.

Chen Yong Wah asked his follower Fang Hui She to take care and train the Princess. the Princess Change her last name to Fang.

However, the Chih of Chih Niang was actually having the same pronounciation as Chu. Which is the Ming Emperor's last name.


So, Chen Yong Wah who's nick name related to White Crane. Fang Chih Niang's "adopted" father Fang Hui-Seh.... all add up.. this way.



Southern Shao Lin at that time was practicing an "older" type of Shao Lin art. later, Southern Shao Lin adopted/influence by FAng Chih Niang's White Crane teaching. ... and some Southern Shao Lin still using the White Crane teaching.

BTW: Chen yong Wah, Fang Choong, Fang Chih Niang all exist in the real world in 1650's. Daughter of last emperor also exist......




2, for the technical history:

As for Why Wing Chun Kuen become Wing Chun.

from the technical history and methodology ,

a, it is pretty clear that the Method of the training of the "Inch Jing Join power "(which is a trade mark of the fujian white crane. ) was substitute with the Emei's 12 Zhuang's methodology.---- snake body which is the core of the SLT.

b, And with the Emei 12 Zhuang's charactericstics, Wing Chun becomes more "sticky" and more "details" then White Crane Wing Chun in application even though both style are using very similar type of technics.

BTW. This Inch Jing Join Power does influence or Par with WXZ's Yee Chuan. (Yee Chuan was found early 1900 and Yee Chuan Also influence today's Oyama's Kyokushin Kai) White Crane artist had a match with WXZ and par.


Things are more clear now because we can access to the 1700's Kuen Po / Kuit writing..... we can know lots of stuffs and what happen pre Red boat.







Rene,

There are Sets pre redboat. ......technically with the data what we have today. we know we are really really close.

http://disney.go.com/disneypictures/nationaltreasure/splash.html

Yup. we go back to 1776 and before.... for that key and the map of Keng Geng and Madam YWC which was behind the Kuen Kuit. (needs some lemon juice and negative Ion hair dryer to see them.... :D

I am in the dungen somewhere China doing my research .... Ancestors love me to be thier messenger... He hehehehehe .:D :D

Got to go into the dungen before my note book's power totally drain! :D

[yellowpikachu]

BTW,

Attached is a snap short of the family tree of White Crane Wing Chun of Fujian. Wing Chun Kuen exists in this family tree.

This White Crane Wing Chun family tree was made by International White Crane Wing Chun people. (china, Taiwan, SEA,....) They communicate and discuss.

So, Wing Chun kuen were view as a member of this 400 years (since 1650's) big family

[canglong]

hendrik,
What you are saying has already been established by the research of the Ving Tsun Museum and others. This is not new, news or different than what has already been established. Ving Tsun Museum (http://home.vtmuseum.org/)

1. The story of the princess is often associated with the Southern Mantis style as well.

2. David earlier on this forum reminds us not to confuse Fong White crane with Wing Chun. White Crane of Wing Chun County (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=494717&highlight=White+crane+wing+chun+county#post494717) this has nothing to do with modern day Wing Chun and this too is not new or news.
originally posted by desertwingchun2

One does not qualify as many. Where much of the confusion arises from is the name given to the family White Crane gung fu sysytem of the Fong clan. They are from Yong Chun(Wing Chun) County. Hence, they call their system White Crane Wing Chun. Others within the White Crane community may refer to it as Fong's Wing Chun meaning White Crane from the Fong family of Wing Chun County.
originally posted by hendrik
There are Sets pre redboat. ......technically with the data what we have today. we know we are really really close.
originally posted by hendrik
Southern Shao Lin at that time was practicing an "older" type of Shao Lin art. later, Southern Shao Lin adopted/influence by FAng Chih Niang's White Crane teaching. ... and some Southern Shao Lin still using the White Crane teaching.
3. The VTM has previously uncovered proof of all this...
a. that SNT, CK, & BJ pre date the red boats.
b. a paradigm shift took place at Southern Shaolin that lead to the creation of Wing Chun
c. there exist a strong connection between Southern Shaolin Temple, Wing Chun, Secret Societies and anti-Manchu sentiment.

That you now agree with the VTM this is news.

[yellowpikachu]

Canglong,

please read my post again.

You missed my point big time.
and,
I didnt agree with David or VTM,






2, White crane of Fujian has much to do with my Wing Chun lineage and other lineages which is from Ng Mui, (with hard evidents in Writing, structure, application, methodology. )

Perhaps what David describe and address is your or David or VTM style of Wing Chun, and that is understandable and acceptable.



3, what technical and hard data proof does VTM has to make claim?

a, SNT, CK, & BJ pre date the red boats.
b, What Paradigm shift took place at Southern Shaolin? who and what is there in the record of China to be traced? (Such as Fong Wing Chun, Chen Chin Nan, Yik Kam, Fong Shi-Hui, White Crane of Fujian, Emei 12 Zhuang, fujian White Crane's follower fight WXZ. fujian White Crane's follower sever the Taiping, Chan patriach Hsu Yun........ etc.
all were real things in the Chinese history /record which can be traced from Multi-areas.)


BTW. SNT is a name given by GM IpMan if my memory serve, and the Old name is SLT.

as for lineage of WCK which has connection with Rebels, one must has the secrete Code in 1700 or 1850 which can be matched with Tien Tee Hui or Tai Ping or the Small Knife association. Just a claim in not good enough to make the link. Similar to any link with Chan, without the Buddha's mind seal and the patriach's certification, all claim doesnt valid in the ancient Chinese Chan tradition.


As for linking the Southern Mantis, princesss... Well, Both White Crane Wing Chun from Fujian and Wing Chun doesnt have the head structure in common with the mantis. There certainly much much more can be compared such as the Inch power generation.
Beside this is a Crane story.

and you know, Fujian seldom has crane. so why is the name is called Fujian White Crane?:D




Until there is hard technical evidents , I dont think any one's claim is valid even though they all can be a great opinion.

If you or David or VTM believe strongly on the Wing Chun NOTHING todo with White Crane of Fujian claim, my suggestion is perhaps some of you can detailly analized the Power generation of White Crane namely the Inch Jing Join Power, the Wing Chun Keng Geng , NOn broken arrow..what kind of power is Keng Geng and How do you generate Keng Geng ....etc.. here to show us your view. As it said, No Inch Jing Join Power No White Crane from Fujian. No Keng/Chuck/inch Geng No Wing Chun. so, starting with JIng/power/geng is a proper one, IMHHHHOO.



I am sure I am open to listen to the presentation to make this a great technical discussion eventhough I am not neccessary buy your reason.



Until next time I got hold of a web link. Happy New year!

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


Nice write up/info.!


With regards to south mantis most of the research that has been going on shows there was no such princess but I could be wrong. I dont really look into Mantis much anymore! The link of this so-called princess that some how shows up in many arts history would "more likely" have to do with Fang Chi Niang than each art having a princess.

After a lengthy conversation recently with my old mantis sifu who is living in China (while doing his research) I specifically asked him this:

Sifu! South Mantis is a very young art. It can only be traced back to the mid to early 1800's. With that in mind I would like to know what are your thoughts of this arts possible links to Fukien Crane?

Answer: Well, none of us were there so nobody can know for sure but it is quite possible that the knowledge came from there and settled/evolved in the Hakka tribe. Why:

1) White Crane Weng Chun is one of the mother arts of many systems.

2) The form numerology is the same and also the same as true Okinawan versions of the chinese arts.

3) The Hakka tribe settled just north of Fukien in Lung Fushan region. This was on the northern edge of Fukien which was the hub for White Crane boxing.

4) Many old south fist arts (including Mantis) at one time or another were called "weng chun" boxing. This was a generic term used by most but indeed another connection.


Another thing that was said was that we must not forget about Tai Tsu. This is another old art that had influence on many arts. All of course start with 3 Steps, 3 Arrows, 3 Battles etc.. All similar in soooo many ways!

There is an E-Book that will be for sale showing a fair portion of Sifu's research with nice old pictures and data from South Mantis clan and its evoution!

When it comes out I will let you know!


Regards,

[Theorb]

yellowpikachu say:the history can be petty clear now.

now vtm is involve 'petty clear' more than mispell


:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[Vajramusti]

Interesting work Hendrik.

Jim- southern mantis seems to be ayounger art than wing chun
specially jum restarted in HK temple.

The sifu you are referring to is Hagood(?). We have already discussed the relationship(currently none) with Gin Foon Mak.

[Jim Roselando]

Joy,


Jim- southern mantis seems to be ayounger art than wing chun
specially jum restarted in HK temple.

Indeed it seems to be younger. Yet! They all seem to stem from one source.

The sifu you are referring to is Hagood(?).

Yes. He has been living in China and training/researching the art for the past 2 years.

We have already discussed the relationship(currently none) with Gin Foon Mak.

Not for nothing Joy but what does this have to do with the topic? We are talking about historical data/info. not someones relationship with "one" of their sifu's and for what its worth I can tell you that Sifu keeps contact with most if not all of his Jook Lum family. Even tho public opinion seems to think differently.


Regards,

[yellowpikachu]

Jim, Joy

Great information.

further into the technical history,

Thus, I have read the research of the Southern Chinese MA,
As for White Crane Weng Chun's influence, what we know is that White Crane Weng Chun has a big influence on what is called the Southern Shao Lin arts since 1700's. Southern Shao Lin was influence by White Crane Weng Chun's art paradigm shift and not the other way around. One can still find White Crane Weng Chun drawing and writing some of today's Southern Shao Lin arts.

On another hand, further more, the short Limb or Teh Kee ( fujianese ) of White Crane Weng Chun, many Wing Chung lineages from the Red Boat such as Koloo has the signature of the preservation of the Teh Kee art. In Yik Kam's SLT kuit, it said " within Yau there is Kong. Within Kong there is Yau" is another signature of the presavation of both Teng Kee and Teh Kee. (long limb and short limb).

I use Teh Kee term here instead of Short Bridge.or Kiu..etc to differentiate. Because Teh Kee is more then the general kiu or "short Bridge" or Tuin Kiu (cantaoness) and Teh Kee was well define in White crane weng chun.


Thus, I have heard,
The core of paradigm shift of White Crane Weng Chun and some Chinese MA after 1660's is about power generation is shifted from "bow power generation" to "string of bow power generation".
As in WCK saying, others walk with bow, I walk with the bow string. White Crane Weng Chun, Yee Chuan, " various chinese internal martial art systems".... travel this path. which link into Inch Jing Join Power, Snake body, six directional force vectors.... boil down to the potential/kinetic energy/momentum stuffs which is very different compare with Limb/structure technics art, since it is operate in the momentum and energy domain. IMHHO,today, this level of art has not much being seen compare with the Limb/structure technics art. Perhaps, it is because it takes methodology and time to train the Kung; and today trend is using logical process mind to speculate theories and theories with personal concious then cultivate the awareness?


another beauty of travelling this path is that one be able to use sensitivity or awareness while in action in a higher degree.


As for the Tai Zhu, that is the older art which walk the bow IMHO. (still great but doing things in a different way).
The Tai Zhu using the old Shao Lin Kuit Such as San Chaan tong Nor or quick step and jump...larger movements.

The WCK using the Cheem ,Jeet ... or reeling, intercept .....

Thus, WCK is not the same with the Old Tai Zhu or Shao Lin Type of art.


just another few cents....

[Vajramusti]

Hendrik sez:

As for the Tai Zhu, that is the older art which walk the bow IMHO. (still great but doing things in a different way).
The Tai Zhu using the old Shao Lin Kuit Such as San Chaan tong Nor or quick step and jump...larger movements.

The WCK using the Cheem ,Jeet ... or reeling, intercept .....

Thus, WCK is not the same with the Old Tai Zhu or Shao Lin Type of art.

-------------------------------------------------------

Makes sense

Joy

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Vajramusti
Hendrik sez:

As for the Tai Zhu, that is the older art which walk the bow IMHO. (still great but doing things in a different way).
The Tai Zhu using the old Shao Lin Kuit Such as San Chaan tong Nor or quick step and jump...larger movements.

The WCK using the Cheem ,Jeet ... or reeling, intercept .....

Thus, WCK is not the same with the Old Tai Zhu or Shao Lin Type of art.

-------------------------------------------------------

Makes sense

Joy


Joy,

Thus, from the Wing Chun lineages from the Red Boat, the using or term such as Pan Nam's Weng Chun or Chan Wah's Weng Chun, That all reflect to the White Crane Weng Chun's Weng Chun. All these Weng Chun term echo the story of Ng Mui, White Crane ....

since as we know now, in 1700's White Crane Weng Chun influence strongly the so called " southern Shao Lin art". There is only one Weng Chun in the History of China in 1700 which is consider paradigm shift or further develop and leading the "southern Shao Lin" , and that is White Crane Weng Chun.

[Vajramusti]

Hendrik- Pan Nam's stuff has hung ga mixed in with it.

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Vajramusti
Hendrik- Pan Nam's stuff has hung ga mixed in with it.


Joy,

as the art localized evolve, sure everyone mixed something. We can analized who mix what when forsure. As we know, everything is subject to Localized Evolution.



Looking at all of the data on White Crane Weng Chun influence "Southern Shao Lin" (a very broad term), what we can see is that the Weng Chun Tong of Southern Shao Lin Story in the novel is a different way of pointing at the location or place where White Crane Weng Chun where taught.
So, if the Weng Chun Tong exist, within the Weng Chun Tong of southern Shao lin (where ever the location it is, since there are all the dispute still) what was taught is the art of White Crane Weng Chun.
because White Crane Weng Chun directly, solidly, and factually connected to Chen Yong Wah of anti-qing, Zhen Cheng-Kong the general lead to fleet to Taiwan, Ming Ex's generals, Fang Choong, Fang Chih-Niang in 1650's.


So,
For White Crane Weng Chun, the core /mother set is San Chin. For Wing Chun kuen, an off spring of White Crane Weng Chun by the opera actors, the core/mother set is Siu Lien Tau.

and again, why Wing Chun Kuen core itself with Siu Lien Tau?
IMHHo, that is because the Wing Chun Kuen ancestors has found/integrate the Emei 12 zhuang's methodology of training to arive at the Inch Jing join power with further development into Stick, reel, interup, and details such as what the Emei 12 zhuang's Kuit said " gentlely subdue the enermy, within inch and split of an inch."


as a conclusion,
Why do these above history finding is important? it is important because the technical history has provided us 2 things:
1, it seems that the advance momentum/energy level of art has been lost in general. but there is an advance momentum/energy level of art which the ancestors had attained in the past.
2, in order to uncover/further develop the art of Wing Chun kuen , one can do research within the well preserve White Crane Weng Chun system of Fujian and Emei 12 Zhuang.

Wing Chun Kuen is solidly root on the shoulder of two of the giant of Chinese martial art system. How great is that and how lucky is WCK to have the board , depth, and a large experience/libraly collections to reference for future development.

You want to know the back ground or the root of internal and jing part of SLT? just get access to White Crane Weng Chun and Emei 12 Zhuang "library. You want to know the back gound or root of internal mind/qi cultivation of SLT which link to Buddhism/Daoism/TCM mind/body training? just get access to the Emei 12 Zhuang " library. There is no guessing work needed very specific and precise answers interm of methodology can be found.


The research provide a solid clear technical direction/ back ground for anyone from any WCK lineage who wants to further reseach in order / development/ grow thier art. That is beyond any single personal/lineage gain/marketing. And, away from the so called " most original, most older, most older set, most older secret grandmaster , gate keeper..." claims which emphasis on title instead of technical facts which can be examined clearly and grow. The research serve everyone and all lineage from he red boat.



The history is pretty clear now in 2004 with solid data. The more data which will further come out in the coming years will be more clearly illustrate and support the big picture we have known today at the end of the 2004.

just some thoughts. IMHHHO.

[planetwc]

What is the relationship if any between White Crane Weng Chun and Weng Chun as done by say the Chu Chong Man lineage?

ie are forms like Fa Kuen found in both?
Mechanics? Power Generation, etc.?

[t_niehoff]

Hi Hendrik,

Metaphors can be enlightening or misleading, so the context is all important. Without the bow, the string cannot generate power; withour the string, the bow cannot generate power. The bow and string go together, as one unit, to shoot the arrow (step or punch).

On another note, "the old Shao Lin Kuit Such as San Chaan tong Nor or quick step and jump" pertain to it's method or approach to fighting (and is related to a longer range fighting method than WCK); WCK's "using the Cheem ,Jeet" and "subdue the enermy, within inch and split of an inch" (btw, I didn't know ancient chinese used inches to measure -- I thought that was english) pertain to it's method or approach to fighting (in close one can't jump about but has differnt needs including short power). I agree that the approaches are different, and thus require different tools to implement those approaches. It doesn't follow that one approach ("Shaolin" - whatever that means) however different couldn't have either influenced or directly been involved in the development of another approach (like WCK).

And while you are correct that "As we know, everything is subject to Localized Evolution" it also doesn't follow that "localized evolution" accounts for all modification, interpretation, or changes in a fighting method.

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by planetwc

ie are forms like Fa Kuen found in both?
Mechanics? Power Generation, etc.?




the Original Fa Style is from Sze Chuan of China dated before 1600.

Fa Kuen has become a common name for set in CMA style after 1720's. Different style has thier different fa kuen.

BTW. "fa" has a general meaning. but every style implement the meaning differently.


IE.
some red boat style's fa kuen set is Tai Zhu based,
in Yik Kam lineage, the Fa Kuen set is a set illustrating/intepreting a certain technics of the core SLT set.
Thus, same Fa Kuen name but the content and power generation are differents.

[yellowpikachu]

Metaphors can be enlightening or misleading, so the context is all important. Without the bow, the string cannot generate power; withour the string, the bow cannot generate power. The bow and string go together, as one unit, to shoot the arrow (step or punch). -------


One can always ague --- where is the bow and string? there is non in my body. :D








On another note, "the old Shao Lin Kuit Such as San Chaan tong Nor or quick step and jump" pertain to it's method or approach to fighting (and is related to a longer range fighting method than WCK); WCK's "using the Cheem ,Jeet" and "subdue the enermy, within inch and split of an inch" (btw, I didn't know ancient chinese used inches to measure -- I thought that was english)


pertain to it's method or approach to fighting (in close one can't jump about but has differnt needs including short power). I agree that the approaches are different, and thus require different tools to implement those approaches.


It doesn't follow that one approach ("Shaolin" - whatever that means) however different couldn't have either influenced or directly been involved in the development of another approach (like WCK). -----------------------




1, There is english inch and Chinese inch and TCM relative inch when doing accupuncture .... lots of inch..... :D


2, certainly making nail has influence how to manufacturing bullets.
your breathing in the USA influence me in Taipei too! :D





And while you are correct that "As we know, everything is subject to Localized Evolution" it also doesn't follow that "localized evolution" accounts for all modification, interpretation, or changes in a fighting method. ---------


As a human, I can only see the most 180 degree forward. I cannot see 360 degree. So, dont know how to see ALL when I walk one way. :D

[old jong]

I think human nature will always be the same whatever if the "saying" was written on a scroll or on a website!...People in martial arts have always claimed many things and invented a lot more.People have always invented their own stuff,based on the other guy's thing,and pretended to have been taught by some mysterious master on a mountain somewhere.
Just to say that the ancient writings should not be taken as gospel either.
We need time travel if we want the truth!...;)

[Ernie]

Jong --!...People in martial arts have always claimed many things and invented a lot more.People have always invented their own stuff,based on the other guy's thing,and pretended to have been taught by some mysterious master on a mountain somewhere--


and to add none can prove anything when asked to produce real world results !

they just back pedal and answer with a question or a story or some other form of non reality

i guess pigs can fly :D

but is it a chinese pig , a american pig or a space pig :eek:

[old jong]

Ernie-
There was a flying pig in some old Pink Floyd show!...But my point was that martial arts are full of stories and legends.Those were the marketting gimmicks,not different from today's internet scrolling!...;)
How to see the real stories out of these things?...

[Ernie]

Originally posted by old jong
Ernie-
There was a flying pig in some old Pink Floyd show!...But my point was that martial arts are full of stories and legends.Those were the marketting gimmicks,not different from today's internet scrolling!...;)
How to see the real stories out of these things?...

the Real stories ahh that would be nice guess we will just have live our own and only speak on what we can really do :)

[canglong]

hendrik,
you reread your post.
You are the one who is constantly repeating over and over again always saying its not about those anti -Qing, secret societies shaolin or pre red boat you have so many post to that affect I won't even bother to retrieve one at this time. Now in an effort to enhance your argument you reference those very things anit-Qing, Shaolin and pre red boat era. You either are confused or are trying to confuse the issue by referencing all those things and which ever White Crane system best suits your argument.

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by canglong
hendrik,
you reread your post.

You are the one who is constantly repeating over and over again always saying its not about those anti -Qing, secret societies shaolin or pre red boat you have so many post to that affect I won't even bother to retrieve one at this time.

Now in an effort to enhance your argument you reference those very things anit-Qing, Shaolin and pre red boat era.

You either are confused or are trying to confuse the issue by referencing all those things and which ever White Crane system best suits your argument.




Go ahead read my posts.

From many years ago,

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/why/articles/historical/cho_santo01.html

To

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/why/articles/contemporary/santo_shanghai.html

up to today



Everything is following the Ancestors' story with more data to support .


On the existing people in the history.

Chan Wing-Wah or Chen Yong Wah who was linking to Ming dynasty and Anti-Qing and Zhen Cheng-Koong, White Crane, Fang Chih Niang, Fang Chong as seen in Chinese history and White Crane Weng Chun's history was mention in the first post above.



On Events History,

I have mention : There are lineages from Red Boat who has and still preserve the secret code and salutation of Wing Chun from the Red Boat opera era on anti-Qing which can be verified from the Shang Hai's little knive society, and Choy Lee Fut Hung Mun connection of 1850's.

However, this is the event history part which is not supporting directly to any technical history; and it Proof nothing about where, how, when, whom the art of WingChun is from. Some body is Hung Mun or Shao Lin monk doesnt make them by default the master of Shao Lin or the Creator of Wing Chun. There must be Technical History which can link to the person. Not to mention, the identity of such person has to be cleared in written history of China and Chan tradition. otherwise, it doesnt hold.



On the other hand, on technical history,

The White Crane Weng Chun and Emei 12 zhuang technical history among with Yik Kam's SLT writing is pointing to how SLT was created. there involve the inch jing join power, then details, the Sticky, reel, intecept, qi flow.........




All the years, the data from Shang Hai , to TaiNan of Taiwan, to fujian, to Canton, to Sze Chuan across China. which cover the area of the possibilities related on how SLT was created
showing up naturally fit and support themself into what the ancestors told.

IE. GM IpMan, GM YKS's stories. on White Crane , on Ng Mui, on Miu Shun....





note that looking at the early 1700's Fong Chih-Niang 15 shih or momentum classic writing and diagram preserve by the White Crane Weng Chun of fujian . yes Momentum not posture. Those in 1650 are talking momentum (Potential/kenetic energy) not limb technics. Thus, if the power/momentum/energy generation process not understood. one is not syncronized with what happen at 1700. But fall into the Posture, limbs technics...
it will be impossible to activate the SLT fully because we are not looking at thing as who they look at it. as an analogy, people then is talking how many horse power and how fast can be generated in thier electric motor, and we are talking the shape of the motor and the shape of the wiring. IMHHo.

Yes, we today can get access to the details White Crane Weng Chun writting on 1700's. it even mention and explain why and how the weaker physical older age can defeat the young stronger physical age some where.



Please do not get into the mode of shooting at me. because that is not going to get anywhere.

Instead, why not as I suggest before :

If you or David or VTM believe strongly on the Wing Chun NOTHING todo with White Crane of Fujian claim, my suggestion is perhaps some of you can detailly specifically analized the Power generation of White Crane namely the Inch Jing Join Power, the Wing Chun Keng Geng , NOn broken arrow..what kind of power is Keng Geng and How do you generate Keng Geng ....etc.. here to show us your view. As it said, No Inch Jing Join Power No White Crane from Fujian. No Keng/Chuck/inch Geng No Wing Chun. so, starting with JIng/power/geng is a proper one, IMHHHHOO.

if You have a great idea and data, present them ; we all interested to know about it. I am sure I am open to listen to the presentation to make this a great technical discussion eventhough I am not neccessary will buy your reason.


There we can have a technical discussion.

Again, I cannot be perfect and erro free since as I told Terence, as a human when I walk I only can see the most the 180 degree infront of me.
But, I tell you what I see, not what I think I see. and there is a different from what I think I see and what I see it is there.

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by old jong
I think human nature will always be the same whatever if the "saying" was written on a scroll or on a website!...People in martial arts have always claimed many things and invented a lot more.People have always invented their own stuff,based on the other guy's thing,and pretended to have been taught by some mysterious master on a mountain somewhere.
Just to say that the ancient writings should not be taken as gospel either.
We need time travel if we want the truth!...;)






I watch the National Treasure in Tai Pei two days ago and there is a saying there which caught my heart.

If my memory still serve on the Movie, the main character said somthing like : We today dont think like those who compose the Declaration of independent anymore.

I happen to be lucky enough to be able to hold and loan 6 volumes of well preserve classical White Crane Weng Chun which zoom across the past 300 years or so. I am really appreciate that they let me see what happen in the past ....

Since we can still see the declaration of independent of the USA from 1776. the past 300 years is not that far away to trace.

and I think what was said in the movie is right.
We today dont think like those who live and has to use the art in the battle field in 1650 anymore. We like to think scientific but that scientific itself has become our own trap in many way.

99.9 % of Chan or Zen today is so scientific speculate that it is not Zen at all. Eventhough one can keep reading and writing about it.

The power generation of the Inch Jing Join power of White Crane is counter intuitive......... very counter intuitive..... and that is the beauty of it. so simple but because it is counter intuitive. it is kind of hide itself in the public. These too I have to thank and apprecaite those who show me selflessly.

We dont need time travel to see the Truth. We only need to drop the attachment to our own personal bias, time, space, diamention. and the truth is there sit still in the reality.


just some thoughts, Happy New Year!

[SAAMAG]

WTF mate? (note the "end of the world" flash movie at ebaumsworld)

[canglong]

However, this is the event history part which is not supporting directly to any technical history; and it Proof nothing about where, how, when, whom the art of WingChun is from. This explains all that you are trying to connect with presently.

The technology of the swords of the Shanghai Small Sword Society and that of the wing chun baat jaam doa is significantly different enough to suggest there is no connection between them and Wing Chun and secondly the Shanghai SSS are relatively new being in existance only a little over a 100 years.

Inch power is also found in Hung Ga so you are connecting Wing Chun and Hung Ga.

You can not even prove that Ng Mui ever existed so to bring up the name is not technical proof of anything.

GM Ip Man studied and trained with his relative Chu Chong Man also but we all know how you feel about that.
since as we know now, in 1700's White Crane Weng Chun influence strongly the so called " southern Shao Lin art". There is only one Weng Chun in the History of China in 1700 which is consider paradigm shift or further develop and leading the "southern Shao Lin" , and that is White Crane Weng Chun. Here you are agreeing there was a paradigm shift but give no reason as to why vague and obtuse purposely it appears.

Again this information is not new, news or more revealing now than when we first learned of these things maybe you are just too bias to see this.

[Theorb]

Yup petty clear!

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

This one go out to canglong and vtm

I feel petty,
Oh, so petty,
I feel petty and witty and bright!
And I pity
Any girl who isn't me tonight.

I feel charming,
Oh, so charming
It's alarming how charming I feel!
And so petty
That I hardly can believe I'm real.

See the petty girl in that mirror there:
Who can that attractive girl be?
Such a petty face,
Such a petty dress,
Such a petty smile,
Such a petty me!

I feel petty,
Oh, so petty
That the city should give me its key.
A committee
Should be organized to honor me.

[Jim Roselando]

Theorb,


Grow up!

Nothing special about being an obvious designer imposter!

[yellowpikachu]

1, The technology of the swords of the Shanghai Small Sword Society and that of the wing chun baat jaam doa is significantly different enough to suggest there is no connection between them and Wing Chun

and secondly the Shanghai SSS are relatively new being in existance only a little over a 100 years. ---------






if You have AN ORIGINAL WING CHUN BAAT JAAM DOA from 1850's to support your claim, Please Show us.


Shanghai SSS is real and solid rooted with Hung Mun and Taiping, from ShangHai to canton with connection to the to p rebels big short at that time.
if You have any thing as real as what is preserved and record in Chinese History at 1850, show us.

It Will be even great if you have anything beyond 1850 which is similar to the 6 volume classic of White Crane Weng Chun dated 1700's or the Emei 12 Zhuang Classic dated 700's years ago.




2, Inch power is also found in Hung Ga so you are connecting Wing Chun and Hung Ga.-------


You want to link Hung Gar?

As I mention before:

If you or David or VTM believe strongly on the Wing Chun NOTHING todo with White Crane of Fujian claim, my suggestion is perhaps some of you can detailly specifically analized the Power generation of White Crane namely the Inch Jing Join Power, the Wing Chun Keng Geng , NOn broken arrow..what kind of power is Keng Geng and How do you generate Keng Geng ....etc.. here to show us your view. As it said, No Inch Jing Join Power No White Crane from Fujian. No Keng/Chuck/inch Geng No Wing Chun. so, starting with JIng/power/geng is a proper one, IMHHHHOO.

Just droping names and being general is not good enough, please go into details.





3, You can not even prove that Ng Mui ever existed so to bring up the name is not technical proof of anything. ----


Can you prove JeeSim, Hung Gam biu, YatChaan exist?
Can you prove the martial art used by Tan Sau Ng is Wing Chun Kuen or Shao Lin or White Crane Weng Chun ?
Can you prove YatChaan is even a Chan monk?


As for technical proof, that is very different from dropping name of saying my lineage knows the truth. There is White Crane Weng Chun , There is Emei 12 Zhuang, There is inch jing join power, there is Keng Geng. .... Ng Mui exist or not doesnt really matter because a martial art system is not based on some droping of names but solid technical history can be traced for past hundreds of years.

as you mention "secondly the Shanghai SSS are relatively new being in existance only a little over a 100 years." so show us the solid trace of Hung Gam biu at that era.






4, GM Ip Man studied and trained with his relative Chu Chong Man also but we all know how you feel about that. Here you are agreeing there was a paradigm shift but give no reason as to why vague and obtuse purposely it appears. -------


GM Ip Man train with GM YKS. Jiu's Brothers.....
GM Ip Man can train with anyone but that is not going to change Wing Chun technical history of the past and SLT is the core of Wing Chun kuen.

and everyone can create his-stories these days.









5, ...Again this information is not new, news or more revealing now than when we first learned of these things maybe you are just too bias to see this. --------




in your point of view certainly everything can be bias. and that is understandable.





As you wont even accept that Hung Gam is lead by Lee Man Mau. Hung Gam rebel is there because the Red Boat Opera running out of Costumes for the uprising the Opera Actors raised.

See, every one can choose thier reality. and that is understandable. But that is not going to change the reality which is a fact.



BTW, as I post above until you
can show and provide solid specific data upto 1700's there is no information from you; not to mention about new or not new information.

Perhaps, you can believe your speculation is your paradigm shift ? But what is the shift in the history of CMA since 1650? and is your shift the same with others shift.

lots of speculation and claims which upto now doesnt match what happen in the history of china, technically.
What paradigm shift ? when speculation doesnt match data collected? what to agree on?




just some thoughts. and IMHHHHHO, please get into technical and not those he said she said who learn from whom.

We today can access to 1700's record of White Crane Weng Chun and how it influence other styles include the So Called Southern Shao Lin. among other details from other styles.
So, be specific in detail. otherwise, you are speculating about me this and me that instead of get into the topic.


BTW, your believe is always respectable, however, that cannot be taken as truth infront of all the data showing up since 1700.
and shooting at me or poking at me is not going to change the facture data of China.

it is not about me and what I believe or any clever debat. it is about is it such a thing happen once upon of time in China. so, specific data is needed.

This is the 4th times I ask you to present your data. I will not reply your post unless there is data such as

If you or David or VTM believe strongly on the Wing Chun NOTHING todo with White Crane of Fujian claim, my suggestion is perhaps some of you can detailly specifically analized the Power generation of White Crane namely the Inch Jing Join Power, the Wing Chun Keng Geng , NOn broken arrow..what kind of power is Keng Geng and How do you generate Keng Geng ....etc.. here to show us your view. As it said, No Inch Jing Join Power No White Crane from Fujian. No Keng/Chuck/inch Geng No Wing Chun. so, starting with JIng/power/geng is a proper one, IMHHHHOO.

[yellowpikachu]

A general reply,

I have gotten some emails in asking me about the Counter Intuitive of the White Crane Inch Jing Join Power....how to do it....

Sorry that, I am not the master of White Crane Weng Chun, So, please get a qualified White Crane Weng Chun master to learn about it.


regards
hendrik

[anerlich]

I didn't know ancient chinese used inches to measure -- I thought that was english

In my TCM classes I was told that measurements are performed in tsun, "anatomical inches", relative to the patient. A tsun, according to my teacher, is equivalent to the width of the index and middle fingers of the patients, and can be determined by several other anatomical measures (I know what you are thinking - shame on you).

1 tsun = 10 fen.

Whether "tsun" and "inch" have any other than coincidental correlation I will leave to linguists and historians. I don't care, myself.

The subject matter of this thread concerns me only as a great subject to meet one of my 2005 resolutions:

"To become the highest profile and most flamed lineage and history troll on the KFOWC forum for 2005"

No doubt I will be up against Hendrik and worthy VTM-aligned adversaries, but I still think I have a chance to, as Ted Nugent put it, "win the race".

May the best troll win ...

:cool:

[reneritchie]

Andrew's "Original Unchanged Australiasian" WCK is a croc... :)

[Ultimatewingchun]

"To become the highest profile and most flamed lineage and history troll on the KFOWC forum for 2005."

You're going to be up against a lot of stiff competition on that one, Andrew.

Maybe you should enter a different category.

How about "Best TWC/BJJ fighter on the KFOWC forum"?

(Less competition...Hey! Wait! I forgot!..... You might be the only one in that category!)

So what?

You win.

[anerlich]

"You're going to be up against a lot of stiff competition on that one, Andrew."

I do this not because it is easy, but because it is hard (said, I think, about the Apollo program).

[anerlich]

And besides, it looks like yellowpest and canglong jumped the starting gun :D

[desertwingchun2]

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
BTW,

Attached is a snap short of the family tree of White Crane Wing Chun of Fujian. Wing Chun Kuen exists in this family tree.

This White Crane Wing Chun family tree was made by International White Crane Wing Chun people. (china, Taiwan, SEA,....) They communicate and discuss.

So, Wing Chun kuen were view as a member of this 400 years (since 1650's) big family

If you missed it the first time .....

"Where much of the confusion arises from is the name given to the family White Crane gung fu sysytem of the Fong clan. They are from Yong Chun(Wing Chun) County. Hence, they call their system White Crane Wing Chun. Others within the White Crane community may refer to it as Fong's Wing Chun meaning White Crane from the Fong family of Wing Chun County."

Whether one agrees or not fact is fact. White Crane Wing Chun is the White Crane gung fu of the Fong clan from Wing Chun County. The name has nothing to do with Wing Chun Kuen.

- David

[Ultimatewingchun]

yellowpest !!!

Ha! ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! ha! Ha! ha! Ha! ha!

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by desertwingchun2
If you missed it the first time .....

"Where much of the confusion arises from is the name given to the family White Crane gung fu sysytem of the Fong clan. They are from Yong Chun(Wing Chun) County. Hence, they call their system White Crane Wing Chun. Others within the White Crane community may refer to it as Fong's Wing Chun meaning White Crane from the Fong family of Wing Chun County."

Whether one agrees or not fact is fact. White Crane Wing Chun is the White Crane gung fu of the Fong clan from Wing Chun County. The name has nothing to do with Wing Chun Kuen.

- David




Sure, Sure.


as I suggested 4 times above, details please!

If you or David or VTM believe strongly on the Wing Chun NOTHING todo with White Crane of Fujian claim, my suggestion is perhaps some of you can detailly specifically analized the Power generation of White Crane namely the Inch Jing Join Power, the Wing Chun Keng Geng , NOn broken arrow..what kind of power is Keng Geng and How do you generate Keng Geng ....etc.. here to show us your view. As it said, No Inch Jing Join Power No White Crane from Fujian. No Keng/Chuck/inch Geng No Wing Chun. so, starting with JIng/power/geng is a proper one, IMHHHHOO.

[canglong]

originally posted by yellopicatchu
If you or David or VTM believe strongly on the Wing Chun NOTHING todo with White Crane of Fujian claim, my suggestion is perhaps some of you can detailly specifically analized the Power generation of White Crane namely the Inch Jing Join Power, the Wing Chun Keng Geng , NOn broken arrow..what kind of power is Keng Geng and How do you generate Keng Geng ....etc.. here to show us your view. As it said, No Inch Jing Join Power No White Crane from Fujian. No Keng/Chuck/inch Geng No Wing Chun. so, starting with JIng/power/geng is a proper one, IMHHHHOO.



originally posted by yellowpicatyu
Sorry that, I am not the master of White Crane Weng Chun, So, please get a qualified White Crane Weng Chun master to learn about it
hendrik,
Sounds like you should consider this.

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by canglong
hendrik,
Sounds like you should consider this.


Dont avoid questions.

Or you really have no idea what is Keng Geng, how to develop it, what is the process of execution.......etc.

[canglong]

originally posted by yellowpikachu
Dont avoid questions.
You're kidding right!

[SAAMAG]

WTF difference does it make?! I mean really guy!? Do you think that because you can link the style's history to some other style that you will find the missing magical technique that will make your current wing chun invincible?! What?! I fail to understand why you put so much emphasis on this, and why you feel it's so important to prove to us that wing chun is/was linked to "X" shaolin style from "X" temple of the "X" province.

EVERY style in martial arts that is practiced today, was evolved from something else, nothing is pure.

It doesn't really matter man...let it go. All the secret scrolls of all the ancient chi power techniques won't help you win a fight if you don't simply train. Work with the here and now and your fighting ability will get better.

Living in the past robs you of the future, and focusing on the future robs you of the present. Live in the now man...live in the now.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Van:

What you just said is what a number of people have been telling him for quite some time now.

He doesn't get it because he doesn't want to get it.

A hopeless cause...

The guy is lost in his own delusions and escapist tendencies.

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by canglong
Your kidding right!


so , you really have no idea what is Keng Geng, how to develop it, what is the process of execution.......etc.?

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Vankuen
WTF difference does it make?! I mean really guy!? Do you think that because you can link the style's history to some other style that you will find the missing magical technique that will make your current wing chun invincible?! What?! I fail to understand why you put so much emphasis on this, and why you feel it's so important to prove to us that wing chun is/was linked to "X" shaolin style from "X" temple of the "X" province.

EVERY style in martial arts that is practiced today, was evolved from something else, nothing is pure.

It doesn't really matter man...let it go. All the secret scrolls of all the ancient chi power techniques won't help you win a fight if you don't simply train. Work with the here and now and your fighting ability will get better.

Living in the past robs you of the future, and focusing on the future robs you of the present. Live in the now man...live in the now.



You are totally right but you are totally missing my points.


It makes all the different to find out about the tools one train with and rely on, similar to to find out if the products work, if it does the job, how does it do the job. what is the pro and cons....



as for living in the past robs you of future....

Do you still do SLT/SNT?
do you want to explain to all of us what is that SLT or SNT do exactly in details?
How is the SLT aid your fighting? Or it is a waste of time doing the silly set standing? (who fights that way? do your slt as much as you want, can that SNT/SLT or YJKYM sustain and safe you from the grapper's front rush in take down? or your body break into two pice and fall?..... )

Otherwise, while you are doing SNT isnt that living in delusion of the future which never comes? or doing something a waste of time? because nothing works!
Is that Living in Now?


BTW, before you check into the Infra Red photographic and EEG data colections on mind/body research. making any claim about chi power techniques is just a claim without substance. Is that an act of Living in Now or living in one's own delusion? or not aware of the High tech today ?


just some thoughts and you are welcome to not agree with me.

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Van:

What you just said is what a number of people have been telling him for quite some time now.

He doesn't get it because he doesn't want to get it.

A hopeless cause...

The guy is lost in his own delusions and escapist tendencies.


You want to describe to us what is Keng Geng, the process, the methodology......and how it links to SLT? what works what doesnt work...... is the SLT/SNT snake oils?


otherwise, who is lost in thier own delusion of not trying to find out what happen ? such as if one brought a product and it doesnt work, dont one wants to find out what is going on, instead of calling those who does the investigation into the product -- delusions and escapist ? hopeless?



I am not so sure.


Perhaps you dont want to find out why, what,.... and that is ok.
However, those who like to find and iron out things cant be delusion and escapist or hopeless. That is very pragmatic practices to find out what happen.

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by canglong
Inch power is also found in Hung Ga so you are connecting Wing Chun and Hung Ga.

.





is this Southern Shao Lin IRON WIRE SET where your biu Jee, inch power, and kiu sau from?

http://users.skynet.be/sb018200/ccl2000hgb.wmv





note: With highly respect and appreciation to the masters who makes possible to share so that for us to be able to see and study his excellent art.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"You want to describe to us what is Keng Geng, the process, the methodology......and how it links to SLT? what works what doesnt work...... is the SLT/SNT snake oils? "


Of course not. I've got much better things to do with my time and energy.

Which is a major hint for you...

Instead of lamenting why it is that what you know doesn't work as well as you'd like it to - and instead of looking for answers back in past centuries...

you could be finding answers in the HERE AND NOW - by spending more time training.

But I don't think that will ever happen - because I believe you are a hopeless cause who actually enjoys wasting a lot of time on nothing.

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
"You want to describe to us what is Keng Geng, the process, the methodology......and how it links to SLT? what works what doesnt work...... is the SLT/SNT snake oils? "


Of course not. I've got much better things to do with my time and energy.

Which is a major hint for you...

Instead of lamenting why it is that what you know doesn't work as well as you'd like it to - and instead of looking for answers back in past centuries...

you could be finding answers in the HERE AND NOW - by spending more time training.

But I don't think that will ever happen - because I believe you are a hopeless cause who actually enjoys wasting a lot of time on nothing.


You remind me about the Qing in 1900 when the young emperor wanted to do the same with emperor meji of Japan to integrate the east and west's best. The senior officials lost thier past and dont know how to face the western nations.

So, they believe in keep training thier Ultimate boxer which is "bullet proof. "
keep training and training and losing themself in training the ultimate boxers ...

Ultimately they got totally blown away and they decide to Jump boat to totally accept the western view.


The western nations didnt fight them with wrestling but with technology.....



I guess you are more Chinese/Qing and I am more western minded. :D

[Ultimatewingchun]

"The western nations didn't fight them with wrestling but with technology...."


Yeah - and maybe it's time for you to start working with some new technology....like....Western Wrestling. (New for you - that is.)

Or something.

Anything...other than what you're doing.

Because what you're doing now is amounting to a big ZERO.

What a waste of time you are!!!

An Ultimate New Year's Resolution?

STICK TO MY GUNS ABOUT NOT PAYING ANY ATTENTION TO YOUR POSTS!

Adios...clown!

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
"The western nations didn't fight them with wrestling but with technology...."


Yeah - and maybe it's time for you to start working with some new technology....like....Western Wrestling. (New for you - that is.)

Or something.

Anything...other than what you're doing.

Because what you're doing now is amounting to a big ZERO.

What a waste of time you are!!!

An Ultimate New Year's Resolution?

STICK TO MY GUNS ABOUT NOT PAYING ANY ATTENTION TO YOUR POSTS!

Adios...clown!



you must be either visiting Silvia Browne or had become a "psychik" so you can read minds, predicting futures, know what others is doing.......etc :D

http://www.sylvia.org/home/2000plus.cfm

"Aliens will begin to show themselves in the year 2010, they will not harm us, they simply want to see what we are doing to this planet. They will teach us how to use anti-gravity devices again, such as they did for the pyramids. "


now, that is real high tech :D


BTW, I dont know the WCK Keng Geng yet. So the search on what is WCK keng geng is still the task of 2005! :D

[anerlich]

The western nations didnt fight them with wrestling but with technology

The technology of wrestling is superior to the pipe dreams of alchemists to which you seem to adhere.

[planetwc]

Some on this forum have been deridiing Hendrik Santo for his theories regarding the connections between certain styles of White Crane.

I'd advise you to take a look at these clips from the CITY OF Yong Chun (ie Wing Chun) where they practice White Crane Kung Fu ( Bai He Chuen ).

I find the connection between THIS White Crane and Wing Chun to be quite apparent. Much more so than any Shaolin system.

Here is the site:

White Crane Kung Fu ( Bai He Chuen ) (http://www.fujianbaihe.com/fujianbaihe/index.html)

So far I've only looked at the 4 parry punches clip and Ba Shou (8 hands).

They look very very very similar in structure and mechanics to Wing Chun. I could certainly see where it could be an ancestor or from the same root.

[reneritchie]

Fujian White Crane Weng Chun, in its early form, as brought to Guangdong along the same migration route as the Tien Dei Hui, and as trained on the Red Junks by their mid-18th century leader, Lee Man-Mao, is likely what evolved into Guangdong Weng Chun, and one of the main components of Guangdong Wing Chun.

Either that, or it was dropped down by aliens. Wing Chun Tology, make your contributions now...

[yellowpikachu]

Rene,

Since you are a Matrix reloaded. :D


Here is a snap short of Fang Chih Niang Chuan Tzu or the Fang Chih-Niang's art ancestor writing.


enjoy the 1650---------->

[planetwc]

And what does the writing translate to?



Originally posted by yellowpikachu
Rene,

Since you are a Matrix reloaded. :D


Here is a snap short of Fang Chih Niang Chuan Tzu or the Fang Chih-Niang's art ancestor writing.


enjoy the 1650---------->

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I find the connection between THIS White Crane and Wing Chun to be quite apparent." (planetwc)

Okay, David.

Fair enough.

So now what?

Will that information do me (or you) any good in the here and now?

I'm interested in what you...David....think about that.

[reneritchie]

Looks like Fang Qiniang Quandao (Fong Chut Leung Kuen Do), or Fong Seventh-Daughter's Fist Path down the middle. Rest is illegible to me.

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by planetwc
And what does the writing translate to?

it is translated to Fang Chie-Niang's martial art source book.

within it lots of discussion on variety of momentums and how to use momentums to generate power...etc

[planetwc]

One one front, it is interesting historical speculation. That as a point of reference doesn't do you or me any good from a fighting standpoint.

On other fronts, it would only be interesting if one could compare their method of power generation and to do a comparison to what we in WCK do now--that is if we have that kind of ability ourselves.

As to training, does it help in that? Nope.

Seeing similar huen bo footsteps etc. doesn't make one's personal skill better. :P

It is more for the armchair historian info. Unless someone steps up and does hard cross training in both to seek inch power generation and breathe life back into it. By that I mean practice it, codify it and teach it to others in a fashion that THEY can also do it.


Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
"I find the connection between THIS White Crane and Wing Chun to be quite apparent." (planetwc)

Okay, David.

Fair enough.

So now what?

Will that information do me (or you) any good in the here and now?

I'm interested in what you...David....think about that.

[SAAMAG]

Sooo then what's the point here? Should we all switch to white crane because it's our ancestrial art or because it's closer to our root?

That's like giving up the Ford Mustang for the Ford Model T in efforts to learn how to better generate HP. Doesn't sound so smart now does it?

So perhaps wing chun did come from it...and perhaps wing chun was the evolutionary step forward, ridding itself of the wasted movements to create a more compact and simple system without the cluttered mess.

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by planetwc
. Unless someone steps up and does hard cross training in both to seek inch power generation and breathe life back into it. By that I mean practice it, codify it and teach it to others in a fashion that THEY can also do it.



That will only be a matter of time.




Here is a sample of the content of the Fang Chie-Niang's martial art source book.



Chapter 1: the methodology of breathing in combat
Chapter 2: A summary of Kuen Fatt
Chapter 3: The kuit of destroy momentum
Chapter 4: Discussion of the process of transfering the core of the art
Chapter 5: The source and lineage of the White Crane spiritual ancestor style
Chapter 6: The methodology of passing the art
Chapter 7 : the discussion of power transport within the body
Chapter 8: the discussion of foot work and the two feet
chapter 9: the discussion of using momentum to generate arm power
chapter 10:the discussion of using momentum to generate fingers power
chapter 11: the discussion of the momentum of proper body power generation
Chapter 12: the discussion of a balance center line
Chapter 13: the discussion of static and dynamic momentum of body
chapter 14: the discussion of holistics body momentum
chapter 15..........


if there is merit,
First we starts with --- to match to see if our knowledge today covered all the area and details .........

Then we can get into the Inch Jing Join power, and then we can use the Inch Jing Join power without/and without the emei 12 zhuang's snake body (since this is another components) to power the SLT/SNT.

When we get to the point that we can power up the SLT/ SNT . then everyone will be able to have the technology over night. the estimation is that it will take not more then 120 mins to learn , even it might take more time to master but the principle and process will be clear in 120 mins.

Perhaps we have this technology implement in SLT/SNT in the far future, near future, or even tomorrow. if some one step up to do the experiments.


just some thoughts


----------------------------------

If the seas ran dry, turned to dust
And the sun refused to rise
I would still find my way,
By the light I see in your eyes
The world I know fades away
But you the SLT stay ----- Crouching tiger hidden dragon

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Vankuen

That's like giving up the Ford Mustang for the Ford Model T in efforts to learn how to better generate HP. Doesn't sound so smart now does it?

So perhaps wing chun did come from it...and perhaps wing chun was the evolutionary step forward, ridding itself of the wasted movements to create a more compact and simple system without the cluttered mess.


Very true.

However, it is just a speculation.

until we get the data and do the experiment. No one knows what happen.