Chi Sau - Different Lineage

[Nat from UK]

I currently get the opportunity to Chi Sau within my current lineage - Yip Man -> WSL, and Foshan Lineage as taught by Sifu Freason from the UK, (not directly with Sifu Freason but some of his students)

I have witnessed on a number of occasions high level Pat Fau Lain Wing Chun (Excuse sp)Chi Sau. I have noticed/felt diffences in the energy of these lineages and how they attack/redirect attacks.

Any one have care to comment on their own experiences with different lineages -

Nat from UK

[Ish]

Unfortunatly I've only trained with people in my class so i don't really know.

[reneritchie]

The typical Chi Sao (actually Luk Sao or Poon Sao) you see in Yip Man WCK and Sum Nung WCK is really only found in those lineages (although some others have now integrated it as well). Most WCK use the Seung Huen (double circling) and related Ngoi/Noi (inside/outside) circing platforms for Chi Sao. You can find this in Gulao, Cho, Sum Nung (along with Luk Sao), and other branches, and even some White Crane branches. Pan Nam's lineage does Aat Yiu (Waist Pressing), where practitioners push and pull on each other in an attempt to break the other's CoG. Pao Fa Lien I've only seen a snippet of, but it looked more mobile and more like Tui Sao (Push Hands). Some Malay branches also use sticking two man sets.

I'd love to hear more about Pao Fa Lien sticking, though 8)

Rgds,

RR

[Nat from UK]

I have posted a picture of two of the Pat Far Lain Sifu's, this was taken in Hong Kong in 1999. Also present was Mok Poi On (Excuse SP) and Leo Man (I beleive Leo Man is currently doing a fantastic job as ambassador of his Pat Far Lain Wing Chun via seminars etc)
Their Chi Sau was as you commented similar to Tai Chi Pushing Hands, working on attacking balance and uprooting structure rather than strikes. They also leant backwards when under pressure rather than step back or to the side and then sprung back upright with their counter attack. - Weird to watch but they made it work and they were giving away about a foot in height, loads of weight and about 40 - 70 years in age. The older Sifu was i believe over 100 years old! It's my eternal embarrasment that i cannot remember there names.

Nat from UK

[Nat from UK]

How Do i post a picture - it says i am not authorised, how do i get authorised.

Thanks

Nat from UK

********Nat I posted teh image for you although there is a lot of blank space. Not sure why as when I open it there is no blank space. I will play with it a little later when I have time and try to get rid of the extra white space. In the meantime here it is. I had to change the file format as it was too large to be posted. You originally had something like 516kb and the limit is 256kb. Sihing73 :) )

[This message was edited by Sihing73 on 09-27-01 at 02:06 PM.]

[Sihing73]

Hi Nat,

I just looked in the moderation que and did not see anything pending. Would it be possible for you to e-mail me the picture and I will see if I can post it. I will say that in the past there have been some problems with posting some things, some of which I have no control over.

Anyhow, send me the pic and I will try and see if I can post it, under your message of course ;)

Sihing73@juno.com

Peace,

Dave

[Harlequin]

I had the opportunity to do some double arm chi sau with some Wing Tsun practitions who came to my kwoon to see how we trained. I train in Tradition Wing Chun. The students in question claimed to have 3 years + experience in their style of Wing Tsun.
I found that they tended to roll very quickly and often broke their own centre line. It seemed to me quite messy, i think they might have been exagerating their experience.To me, the faster pace that the tried to set made it easier for me to execute my techniques especially when they crossed their own centre line for me.
Apart from these two Wing Tsun students i haven't chi sau'd with any other form of Wing Chun.
Does Wing Tsun promote such a speedy roll during double arm chi sau? In TWC we have a steady evenly paced roll. And though this may sound like a silly question, does WT promote crossing your own central line whilst rolling or is that a side effect of the speed of which these two students were rolling?

[Jeff Brown]

Prepare to be Gam-Da'd!

[kungfu cowboy]

If they're that sloppy, they should definitely slow waaaaaay down until they get some skill. Sounds like they suck.

"If do right, no can defense!"----Mr. Miyagi

[fmann]

Those 2 guys sound a little fishy. The head instructors for the different branches of WT around the world teach things a little differently, so it's not indicative of WT say in America or what not.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I think that many of the "differences" are based more on the personal skill level rather than the lineage per se. I say this because, as Rene pointed out most Yip Man Chi Sau is similiar. Having said that I have had the opportunity to do Chi Sau with some people from the William Cheung line, Moy Yat line, some students of Garrick Edwards and a student of Eddie Chong as well as many years in WT and now with Sifu Chung Kwok Chow.

I felt that the differences were more on the individual rather then the "line". Still there were some things which I noticed.

1) The people of the William Cheung line I worked with did nto really like to "roll" they seemed to like to make contact and then move right into some sort of strike. When they did roll they liked to use a double Bong or double Fook rather then the more traditional manner of one hand Bong/Taun and one Fook. Of course, this is just those that I worked with and I can not say this is common to William Cheungs people across the board.
2) The student of Eddie Chong had a lot of very fancy and intricate techniques. I found that it was far easier to take the centerline and strike rather than play a game of chasing hands. Seemed to me that there was a lot of unneccessary "fancy" movements rather than a direct and simple applicaiton. Again, I do not know if this is consistent with how Eddie Chong does things and I only had the chance to work out with this guy a couple of times.
3) I found tha Moy Yat people to vary. Some were very good and some were not. The method of Chi Sau did not seem to be overly different but I have a feeling that the ones who were good spent a lot of time on basics.
4) WT, well what can I say about the biggest difference here is the complilation of the "sections" of Chi Sau. Each "section" teaches a different type of energy to play with, IMHO ;)
5) I only had a few minutes to roll with the guy from Garrick Edwards group. They trace themselves back to Francis Fong. I found them to be open and not have a good control of the center. However, to be fair it was only a very brief touching of hands and I would be totally off base. I did feel they were more strength oriented than I though.
6) Sifu Chow performs Chi Sau with a very subtle shift in the wrist position during the roll. You actually withdraw the wrist slightly during the roll from one position to the other then slightly extend it forward again at the completion. This is a very subtle move and can be easily missed if not sensitive to it.

Now for my basic opinion on difference on Chi Sau:
1) Some people will perform Chi Sau with a great deal of forward pressure. The idea here seems to be to overwhelm the opponent and have so much force going forward that you will instantly rush in once an opening is found. This is pretty goos except that you are relying on strong forward pressure to make up for sensitivity. If you force is off slightly, say to the side or up or down, a sensitive opponent will be able to lead you where he wants you to go.
2) Some people like to do Chi Sau very soft with almost no pressure. They are sometimes very hard to hit but very easy to move. For example, I once had the privilege of watching Yip Chun perform Chi Sau with another Wing Chun person. The otehr person was younger, obviously stronger and more aggressive. He was able to move Yip Chun all across the floor but could not hit him. Each movement was deflected and Yip Chun was able to maintain his structure throughout.
3) Some people do not use footwork with Chi Sau. They will stand in the stance and not move. While I feel this is great for beginners at some point you need to be able to move while in contact. Also there are variations in the stances taken. Some are in the "traditional" pigeon toed stance, some with feet parallel and some with one foot extended slightly in front of the other.

Well, that's all for right now. Got to get back to work. the above is only my opinion and does not mean I am right or wrong. Also, the people I worked out with were just like me, individuals and I can not say they were representative of any specific lineages approach to Chi Sau. I learned something from each person and feel all had valid methods which worked for them. Chi Sau is not fighting but is a drill about learning how to deal with energy of differing forms. There are a lot of different ways of expressing energy and just as many RIGHT ways of dealing with this energy. The key is to understand the energy and figure out the best method which works for you within the framework of whatever system you do.

Peace,

Dave

[kungfu cowboy]

Jeez, I wish we could go back to the days when you could just state your opinion without having to apologize in advance to anyone who might possibly take the slightest offense to! :( After all, our experiences ARE our own, and they are valid as such. As long as they are honest...As long as they are honest...sorry if I offended anybody! ;)

"If do right, no can defense!"----Mr. Miyagi

[OdderMensch]

I am so offeneded that you wish to go back to the barbaric times when a man could state his opinion on a subject without first ensureing that any possible offense is......oh wait I'm a libertatian, never mind :)

oh on topic ive done chi sau with a few other schools and hope to touch many hands from many teachers in the coming years. seeing what other people do can only help IMHO


"I may not agree with a thing you say but i will defend to the death your right to say it."

[Sihing73]

kungfu cowboy and oddermensh,

I am sooooo sorry guys. I did not mean to offend anyone. Please forgive me :eek: otherwise I will not be able to concentrate while watching Enterprise tonight on TV :p

All in fun guys. Now back to our regularily scheduled Wing Chun topics.

How many people here favor a more forward based Chi Sau and how many favor a softer more yeilding approach or a mid line one??????

Peace,

Dave

[kungfu cowboy]

;)

"If do right, no can defense!"----Mr. Miyagi

[kj]

Dave asked <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>How many people here favor a more forward based Chi Sau and how many favor a softer more yeilding approach or a mid line one??????[/quote]

For this people :D, all of the above. Each in its right time. The development and skill of the respective chi sau partners is one consideration, as well as which attributes are being emphasized in the training at that moment in time. Sometimes the choice depends on what currently "needs the most work." So it varies, but all are helpful and important even at advanced levels, IMHO.

[Roy D. Anthony]

I agree with Kathy Jo.
in fact there are clear distinctions troughout the WIng Chun Training, such as
Siu lim Tao Level chi sao,
Chum Kiu level Chi Sao
Biu Jee level chi sao,
Mook Jong level Chi Sao,
Luk Dim bun kwan level Chi Sao,
and pah chum dao level chi sao.
plus a few other definitive levels.

[Miles Teg]

With the forward pressure relying on strength thing, from what I have heard about Chu Shong Tin, he uses a lot of foward pressure but people much stronger can not over come his structure. He is a slight built elderly man so it would be fair to say that physical musicular strength is not necessarily used for those styles that use forward pressure.
In fact I think it takes more muscle to hold your arm in the air, barely touching the other persons arm, than to rest your arm on the others arm while applying forward pressure. There is a difference between tension and 'being tense'.

[S.Teebas]

Good post Miles!

I think having a strong amount of forward pressure is what you really should be aiming for, but only though technique, not muscle/brute strength. After all in a real altercation your opponent is going to be using his maximum power/force against you. By training to exert and recieve maxim force...this is most realistic or useful in a real situation.
At higher levels it is possible to have people exert large amounts of force upon you, and you can redirect his/her force though your stance. The result is you wont feel the pressure on your body (wont be affected by opponent) but this lets you see what his intentions are (ie where this force is going)...and you can read him like an open book!

Isn't it best to find the easiest way to achieve the best results?


S.Teebas

[Nat from UK]

Everyone out there, can anyone identify the two Par Far Lain Wing Chun Masters. - It kills me that i can't remember their names.

RR, i respect your knowledge of the history of different lineages - can you help ??

If there is any Par Far Lain people on this forum you must know these guys - I beleive the older sifu has now passed away (aged 103 and still practicing).

Nat From UK

[reneritchie]

Although the compression makes it a bit difficult, I believe that is the late grandmaster Chu Chong on the left and his grandstudent, Leo Man on the right. Man sifu, I believe, opened the first public Pao Fa Lien class ever at the HK Chin Woo association a few years ago. He was a student of the late Mok Poi-On (well known publisher of New Martial Hero magazine).

Rgds,

RR