taijutsu and aiki jujutsu

[SevenStar]

what's the difference between these two? I was telling a guy that taijutsu translates to "body arts" and was a name used interchangeable with jujutsu back in the day. It's now associated with an aspect of ninjutsu training (this is true). He told me that aiki jujutsu is the exact same thing, and that through taijutsu practice, aiki will be developed, which I question.

So, what's the difference between these two?

He also said that masaaki hatsumi and his schools "are the taco bell of ninpo"...

[Water Dragon]

And just before the year ends, Sevenstar wins the Biggest Bucket of Worms Thread award

[FuXnDajenariht]

taco bell huh? i thot most everyone who knew anything about ninpo considered bujinkan one of the few or only, i guess ninpo skools left that teach anything at all worth learning. theres not much info about it tho so who knows. exactly what does ur friend study if not that?

[FuXnDajenariht]

its all in the name i guess. whats separates jujutsu from aiki-jujutsu would probably be a better question.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by SevenStar
what's the difference between these two? I was telling a guy that taijutsu translates to "body arts" and was a name used interchangeable with jujutsu back in the day. It's now associated with an aspect of ninjutsu training (this is true). He told me that aiki jujutsu is the exact same thing, and that through taijutsu practice, aiki will be developed, which I question.

So, what's the difference between these two?Historically taijutsu was the same as jujutsu and aikijutsu and aikijujutsu were different types of jujutsu I think. But I don't know. In aiki we used to use taijutsu for the more solid throws, like tai otoshi, sumi otoshi and various koshiwaza, and in kendo they use it to mean tai-atemi, when you strike through with your whole body and slam the opponent, but it's frowned upon in competition.

Don't understand his statement 'through taijutsu practice, aiki will be developed'. Does that mean that if you practice taijutsu your body will naturalluy get the principles of aikijutsu/aikido...blending and whatnot...?
He also said that masaaki hatsumi and his schools "are the taco bell of ninpo"... Is that good?!

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Mat
in kendo they use it to mean tai-atemi, when you strike through with your whole body and slam the opponent, but it's frowned upon in competition.

I didn't know kendo had non-sword techniques.


Don't understand his statement 'through taijutsu practice, aiki will be developed'. Does that mean that if you practice taijutsu your body will naturalluy get the principles of aikijutsu/aikido...blending and whatnot...?


his only understanding of aiki is that it means "harmonizing spirit". He's saying that that will be developed through taijutsu practice, making it essentially the same as aiki jujutsu.


[/b]Is that good?! [/B]

No. He's saying they are McSchools. Here's a quote from an email he sent me:

"We've met Tanemura's
students and we have more respect for them because them know half way what they are doing. Hatsumi schools are like the Tacobell of Ninpou."

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
And just before the year ends, Sevenstar wins the Biggest Bucket of Worms Thread award

:D

[Mr Punch]

I didn't know kendo had non-sword techniques.I've never really though of it as a non-sword technique... :D You have your sword, you step and strike with it, then follow through with the elbows, the shoulder, the hip and the knee at the same time. Some people will use the head too.

It will usually get you disqualified in competition, as will just following through with your elbows.
his only understanding of aiki is that it means "harmonizing spirit". He's saying that that will be developed through taijutsu practice, making it essentially the same as aiki jujutsu.Oh OK. Maybe that's like aiki warm-ups (aiki-taisou/tai-sabaki) have sometimes been called taijutsu. So having someone coming in with a punch, and doing a tenkan or an irimi move to 'blend' with it, and practice your stances and moving from posture to posture with someone providing resistance.

Tacos still sound good to me!!:( :D

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Mat
I've never really though of it as a non-sword technique... :D You have your sword, you step and strike with it, then follow through with the elbows, the shoulder, the hip and the knee at the same time. Some people will use the head too.


what type of strike is if off of? Do? kote?

[Mr Punch]

Men.

You can't do it with do, because the position of your shinai means that it really is just a body-slam with no pretense of getting a solid sword strike in. As you always go past your opponent with do, you would have to 'double-back' and step in to them, which would be a bit obvious.

You could manage it with kote, but usually with kote, if it doesn't come off, or if you don't follow through with men, your shinai will be pointing upwards, which will lead to pushing each other off with the kote (gloves) (can't remember the word for this). If your elbow position collapses in kote you can get a nice tai-atemi.

From men, as you are bringing your hand back naturally and following through naturally, keeping the forward pressure on, your kote and elbows naturally force your opponent's head back, then you retract the arms a bit further for the whole shoulder barge thing. The footwork progresses through the same as for a normal strike.

My sensei said it's a left over from kenjutsu, together with things like the little shin-kick/knee as you step in, and the stamp as you step out.I think these are called taijutsu too...

Some people naturally have a very robust kendo style, and esp if they have a stocky body to go with it, they can get tai-atemi in without getting spotted. If the judges deem it too blatant they will penalize you.

[Oso]

http://www.wayofthewinds.com/index.htm

anyone heard of this guy?

supposedly what I've trained in came from him.

[Samurai Jack]

Under his credentials, he lists this organization, "The World Head of Family Sokeship Council Hall of Fame", which is a known bogus credentialing organization. You can get recognized by them as a "Master" by sending them a sum of money. Obviously a big red flag there.

It also looks like he designed his own system and named it "The Way of the Winds", then tacked on "jujitsu, aiki-jujitsu, aikido, karate-do, shinobino-jitsu" as the roots of his system of ninjutsu. He must've done nothing but train martial arts for the last forty years to have mastered all of those systems, and by his own admission, what he's doing isn't pure ninjutsu.

Otherwise, who knows? If he was really a student of Donn Draegar, then he probably has trained very hard in the past. He might be really good as a result. Draegar was a high ranking judoka with black belts in a handful of japanese martial arts. Maybe your guy legitimatly wanted to improve ninjutsu as a whole by formulating his own system through hard work and discipline. It's rare, but it happens.

[Mr Punch]

He seems hardworking. There's a photo of him back in the dojo in '63. There's your forty years! 'Sides he's in a hall of fame sponsored by Wesley Snipes... :rolleyes:

BTW Samurai Jack, there's an aiki thread which may benefit from your insight over on ORA.

[Becca]

Originally posted by Samurai Jack
[B... and by his own admission, what he's doing isn't pure ninjutsu.

Otherwise, who knows? If he was really a student of Donn Draegar, then he probably has trained very hard in the past. He might be really good as a result. Draegar was a high ranking judoka with black belts in a handful of japanese martial arts. Maybe your guy legitimatly wanted to improve ninjutsu as a whole by formulating his own system through hard work and discipline. It's rare, but it happens. [/B]
Most Nijitsu found out side of Japan is a blend, much of it comming from former military. The blend he mentioned is a common one in the U.S. The one I studied was less on Budo and more on servivalist stuff. I spent a good part of my first two years rock cilmbing and repelling. Maybe even 30% of all my training time, actually. It is more a matter of if you are more interested in learning from the individual. If you are a style snob, then no, this type of instructor is not for you. I had no such compuntion.

[Oso]

the hand to hand 'taijitsu' stuff that came from him is good basic fighting w/ a twist to the stealth side of things by the main goal being escape and evasion rather than sticking around and duking it out.

the knife work was good, imo and i got a small bit of sword as well.

{shrug}, I actually just sent him an email in an attempt at verifying that my teacher's teacher did indeed study under him...we'll see.

[Samurai Jack]

Oso, it sounds like you're sceptical about your teacher's claiming to have learned from him. Are there problems at your dojo right now?

[SevenStar]

mat, you mentioned that there is a difference between aiki jutsu and aiki jujutsu. What's the difference?

[Oso]

SJ, I don't train under the guy with the claim to Mr. Duncan anymore.

there were, however, several issues of honesty about what was what and where it came from.

in this instance there is only the word of my old teacher as to where the ninjitsu came from...no documentation or pics or anthing.

i'm not too worried about it...several things from that training are permanently in my skill base and they work well for me.

but, it would be nice to be able to legitimately say 'it came from this guy'.

we'll see if I get a reply from him or his sons.

....or if I get attacked by ninjas on the way to my guan one day. :D

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by SevenStar
mat, you mentioned that there is a difference between aiki jutsu and aiki jujutsu. What's the difference? That one is mostly serious semantics nitpicking. I usually don't differentiate because they mean different things to different people and if you posted the same thing over at aikiweb or somewhere you'd probably get a load of different answers. I only say it in case somebody pipes up accusing me of missing one out!

Daito-ryu, who claim to be one of the oldest koryu call themselves aikijujutsu I think. Ueshiba originally studied under daito-ryu and later called his style aikijutsu to distinguish it for aikijujutsu and to emphasize the aiki element (at that point Ueshiba-ryu aiki was still in it's formative years, a lot more hardcore, and aiki arguably had a different meaning to its fluffy one now).

Kisshomaru's Ueshiba's 'Spirit of Aikido' book says that his dad was the first to use the word aikijutsu, I think, but I also think I've seen it in a description of the history of daito-ryu, although that history was written by an aikidoka.

Basically not a lot. I was saying it for insurance, in case somebody said 'Ah, but what about (the other one)!?'. Unfortunately you asked me what about both...!! :D:rolleyes:

[Stranger]

I think your friend's comparison of Taco Bell and Hatsumi/the Bujinkan is unfair. :(

[SevenStar]

I completely agree. I've always heard that they were one of the only legit ninjutsu camps still in existence. FWIW, he's not my friend. He runs a school in town, and I asked him some questions based on what I saw on his website.

[Akhilleus]

Hey guys...
Thanks to who pointed out that taijutsu means "art of the body" I was wrong when I said in the authentic ninja info threat that it meant "body movement." I am sorry.

But I still remember many things correctly (I think) from my days of Bujinkan Ninjutsu, and those days were many...in fact I trained in the Bujinkan for almost 8 years and then another 2 years later on when I found a school near my current domicile. Here is what it was like:

First of all, it's not like most places where all you do is focus on self defense, or fighting, or even a couple of things, like self-defense and health, or spiritual cultivation and forms...No, in ninjutsu we did everything from hiding and stealth to CPR to wilderness survival to tracking to...well pretty much anything I can think of! At times I found it hard to get good at anything because I felt like I was suppose to be a jack of all trades and a master at paying monthly fees...that's right, there are different McDojo elements in some american Bujinkan schools...but hey everyone has to earn a living and I still have a great deal of respect for my senseis...

but anyway, this thread is about taijutsu sorry to get off topic...the unarmed combat art of the ninja...borrowing from the four elements, we may shift back and counterstrike an incoming punch while gathering power to come crashing in like a tidal wave with a shooto to the neck...and in ninjutsu guys like to hit eachother hard in training even in areas like the neck, a practice that I never appreciated or understood...against a hook punch we might sink our weight to generate power a la the earth...in fire mode we would move forward to jam an attack as it began...in wind mode we would circle around attacks...there was also a lot of rolling or ukemi in taijutsu...and did I hear someone say joint locks? Loads of 'em...anyone see that "shoulder lock" Frank Mir tapped Pete Williams with? We call that "musho dori" (sp?)...

in hindsight, there were some things that I really liked about ninjutsu and the bujinkan and some things that made me decide to leave said org...part of that was I fell in love with kung fu (WTH was I thinking?!) around that time...

[Akhilleus]

Also I never did any forms in ninjutsu/taijutsu that were anything like what I do in kung fu...but we did have short katas for partner practice...also we didn't do static stances like the horse stance or cat stance but we did have kamae which were suppose to be dynamic postures that were used interchangeably during a fight...some that I remember were

hicho no kamae : where we were suppose to feel like a bird entrapped by a snake about to break free as we stood on one leg...

doko no kamae : angry tiger

ichimonji : a water mode posture...similar in appearance to doko, but the feeling was more defensive...

hira ichimonji : an evasive posture

seiza : a wierd seated posture

seza: kneeling

shizen : standing naturally

Jumonji : that game Robin Williams was trapped in for many years, and an aggressive posture in ninjutsu...

Hoko : an exotic, freaky posture

Koso no kamae : a posture used in fire mode

EDIT: sorry if I mispelled the kamae, as I am sure I indeed have, since I just spelled them based on how they sounded in japanese

[Akhilleus]

He also said that masaaki hatsumi and his schools "are the taco bell of ninpo"...

I can tell you my friend from experience that there are many black belts in the bujinkan that can't even wipe their butts let alone fight...see in the bujinkan there are no tournaments so in many ways status is determined by how many times you have been to japan or how many tai kais you have been to...but having said all that, I learned some good stuff in the Bujinkan! The throws especially were great...some of the joint locks I really like...so there was some BS and some truth...BTW they don't compete b.c there main focus is supposedly reality and real life self-defense...also some of them look down on such worldly competitions...

[Stranger]

Rank means very little in the Bujinkan, except for those who choose not to listen to Hatsumi. Hatsumi's method of ranking his students is unconventional, not nontraditional- there is a difference.

Sure the Bujinkan has sub-par schools out there (Hatsumi admits this), but the Bujinkan is very big now days (and much different then it was during the "ninja boom" of the 80's). There are definitely Bujinkan teachers that know what they are talking about, can use their art effectively, and do not focus on exotic training (CPR, tracking, etc) at the expense of their taijiutsu training.

[Becca]

Originally posted by Akhilleus
... First of all, it's not like most places where all you do is focus on self defense, or fighting, or even a couple of things, like self-defense and health, or spiritual cultivation and forms...No, in ninjutsu we did everything from hiding and stealth to CPR to wilderness survival to tracking to...well pretty much anything I can think of...

I did not study your style, but more of a hybrid art that I've suspected was called Ninjitsu out of some one's imagination... But the more I learn of Bujinkan, the more similarities I see between your training and mine. I also recieved alot of survivalist training, but always assumed this was because my instructor (didn't like to be called sensai) was one of those gung-ho Marine types who honestly loved to do things like that and just drug us along for company. It's nice to know this might not be the case.:)

I thing I will need to make the time to visit the school who's website was posted. I think I might have alot more to learn.

[Akhilleus]

I did not study your style, but more of a hybrid art that I've suspected was called Ninjitsu out of some one's imagination... But the more I learn of Bujinkan, the more similarities I see between your training and mine.

Yeah it sounds pretty good...many of the ninjutsu teachers that I learned from had served in the military...and ninjutsu is a lot different than what a lot of people think of...though there are shuriken or throwing stars...


Rank means very little in the Bujinkan, except for those who choose not to listen to Hatsumi. Hatsumi's method of ranking his students is unconventional, not nontraditional- there is a difference.

Yeah there are some great ninjutsu practitioners...and even those that engage in mcdojoism aren't necessarily bad martial artists or people, they are just trying to make a decent living...

[Shaolinlueb]

i think these ninja people watch too much of the anime NARUTO and worship guy sensie and rock lee too much.

[ShaolinJOJO]

Hey Shaolin Lube you didnt even mention that it was me who took all those pictures that you used for the china trip article those were mine you slacker.:D

ShaolinJOJO-The true inheruter of the Tong Bie form-

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by ShaolinJOJO
Hey Shaolin Lube you didnt even mention that it was me who took all those pictures that you used for the china trip article those were mine you slacker.:D

ShaolinJOJO-The true inheruter of the Tong Bie form-

hey i told you i was using them fool. :p and then you were like "oh okay i dont care, cool". so stop your whining. :p

jojo-you can be the inheruter all you want im fine with that.
but
shaolinlueb-the true Inheritor of the tongbie form ;) :p

[ShaolinJOJO]

Hey you just were like oh yeah im gonna use your pics online not as an article. Always taking credit for my things. And also half the stuff i see you write is wrong.
Also thanks for putting me in the pic in the article.(You also cut me off in the one at the show)

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by ShaolinJOJO
Hey you just were like oh yeah im gonna use your pics online not as an article. Always taking credit for my things. And also half the stuff i see you write is wrong.
Also thanks for putting me in the pic in the article.(You also cut me off in the one at the show)

its not wrong :rolleyes: you're just stupid, you were too busy complaining about being sick and running to the can to know what was going on :o.
what just cause i didnt mention my encounter with kelly and how her and nancy wanted to marry one of us to get to the states :o hahahahaha. you hung out with those two more then me, well nancy you did, kelly i think i might have 2 hours on you.

i didnt cut anyone off, they did it. your in the beer pic anyways :p. i did tell you it was for the article. you just dont pay attention like always. :p

[Shaolinlueb]

i should have mentioned johnny walker. that guy had us cracking up the whole trip. especially the last day in shanghai. the waitressed brought out toast he was like "how about some f**king bacon and eggs with that? you know what the f**k that is?" i was like, man leave it to Johnny Walker. but no i dont think it would have added anything.

I should have put the trip to the other school in there and the christmas eve party and banquet.

[ShaolinJOJO]

Man the even funnier part was all the sayings about the heating an air conditioning, and dude you should have put the picture that had him with the towel wrapped aruond his face.

Also im not the stupid one its you remember the girls you called horse in Chinese! haha:D

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by ShaolinJOJO
Man the even funnier part was all the sayings about the heating an air conditioning, and dude you should have put the picture that had him with the towel wrapped aruond his face.

Also im not the stupid one its you remember the girls you called horse in Chinese! haha:D

yes i did, and i was dressed in the 80's breaker adidas jump suit.!!!

[newbfu]

I was forced to skip every reply to this thread to add my own simple answer.


taijutsu or whoever you spell it simple means unarmed combat.

that all fighting without a weapon.

taijutsu is not a style of martial arts.