Bung Bo apps

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

The Bear Hug thread is wandering off into apps for a section of Bung Bo so I thought I would kick off a new thread for this discussion.

At the end of the first run you turn and execute a right kick behind the left leg. First off, anyone have a name for this kick?

[sayloc]

lee kam wigs book refers to this technique as rear treasure plucking. Not sure how good of a translation that is.

Its app (in the book) is to take the opponent off balance. I dont think that is very applicable to stand on one leg and put it behind the other to try to take someone who is in a solid bo stance off balance.

Prabably a basic explanation for the book.

Hua lin

What is the app for this in your bung bo?

Do you have another version of bung bo? If so which?

18 elders

still interested in your app for this technique.

[German Bai Lung]

The mentioned Technique is called:

Bui Tek Ma - the stance or kick (transl.: Back Kick)
Yam Yong Jeung - the Hand Movement (Positive/Negative Palm - Yin Yang)

Together the technique is named "Rear treasure plucking".

For the application: First you push aside a coming attack and counter with a palm strike at the same time. While doing so you also kick at the kneecap or to the groin.
It is applicable because of the momentum that you concentrate your opponents attention to your hands. The kick than is quite surprising.

I once applied this move in a sparring session at my opponent while he was avoiding a punch from me with a sidestep. The kick went straight to his groin and some first aid was necessary .... I felt really sorry!

Sayloc: off balance you force the opponent with the following move: baak wong ching haak - invitation of the mighty king!
You grap your opponents arm and go back in Ma Bo while applying an armbar and pluck.

[yu shan]

Dont you love the names of some techn.! Did you make this one up 46? :D Juz kidden now.

One way:

The kicker applies the kick to shin/knee while slapping either face/chest/stones... at sametime. In a hurry, I`ll be back.

[sayloc]

Thanks GBL, I figured the app was something like that. Seems like they had a little trouble trying to get the point across on certain things like that. I am in total agreement with you and yushan on the apps.


GbL

What technique is invitation to a mighty king?

Fascinated with the poetic names for the techniques.

I would be glad to compenstae you for your time for any of these "poetic names out of bung bo.:)

Yushan, I just make it up as I go!:)

[18elders]

used as GBL has describled, also can apply as a take down

[GermanMantis]

Originally posted by sayloc


What technique is invitation to a mighty king?

Fascinated with the poetic names for the techniques.

I would be glad to compenstae you for your time for any of these "poetic names out of bung bo.:)


Hi Sayloc,

Baat Wong Ching Haak or Seung Fung Sau (Double-grabbing Hand) is the following technique, when you go back in horse-riding stance.

BTW

Tong Long Bou Sin (Mantis catches the cicarda) = Seung Diu Sau Kwa Fu Bou (3rd technique of bung bo)

Greetings from Germany!

[sayloc]

German Mantis

Thank you sir!

I love your country, It is beautiful!

[WhiteMonkey]

Great topic what about this app?

3rd move, how do you use it?

I notice in alot of the videos posted that this motion is very ...how do I say....short..... small....almost not there...so what is your app for this?

Is it a full move or just a transitional move?

[shirkers1]

White monkey if I'm thinking of the same tactic, I concider it the second move in the set though, after the LH block RH punch in the cat stance. Well here is one ap.


The opponent throws a left right punch combination. You slap with your RH at his Lwrist, your LH wedges from underneath. (That is the first motion that is done almost at the same time, it starts the figure eight motion you see). Then comes his RH punch, after you LH wedge (this is where the second part of the figure 8 motion comes in) you circle your R arm over and grab is R wrist, your left arm circles over and at the same time your body steps back into a cat stance and you execute an arm bar with your left arm attacking his right elbow.

hope this helps.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

sayloc
Wah Lum does the move the same as the Pong Lai Bung Bo so the app would be pretty much the same as yu shan and GBL mentioned. I guess you guys are better with the kick than I am. My foot doesn't get very high (ruling out groin attack) or very far with any amount of power (lead leg needs to be very close which is why I see it used against Chut Sing Ma). I also feel awkward and don't like exposing my back like that unless I continue all the way around. Seems to me if you can reach the groin he's so close the hands are past the target.

Sorry I don't have a definite answer but I haven't learned Big Mantis (Wah Lum's Bung Bo) yet. For some reason the core mantis sets are at the higher levels of Wah Lum.

GBL
Thanks for the technical info. Rear Treasure Plucking sounds like a groin shot to me.

Is the LH block and RH punch counted as one move or two?

[WhiteMonkey]

Thanks shirkers1, but thats not the move, thats move #2 .

The move after that with the left palm strike,#3, with the hoping step, before move #4, the forward right hand punch?

How do you use it ?

Is it a full move or just a transitional move?

What is your target when used?

Why the step?

[MantisCool]

The 3rd move is a palm strike to the chest.

It is a full move. After move No. 2, use the left back hand to push away (outer) a right hand slap or grap of the opponent and then stomp up to deliver the chest strike with the same hand.

The stompping is like a re-coil, to harvest all our energy and deliver it through the palm.

[sayloc]

Hualin,

Do you train in Pong lai also or know their bung bo? Do they teach the 7 star bung bo? I have read on the forum of a laiyang and a yantai bung bo. Is it one of them?

Tha master of that system seems to have done some very extensive training. I like the fact that you can see all of the masters teachers on the web site. Looks very indepth.

Like to learn some of that some day.

Do a forum search on your big mantis. I can remember reading some very in depth info on that here.

[shirkers1]

sorry white monkey for some reason I was thinking of gbl's 3rd move and that stuck.

I think of it as a sticky hand motion, trapping down on the opponents right hand/arm with your left hand. As you step through you block with your LH to his RH attack and you punch to the chest area. All the while eating up his ground.

I've seen the first hand motion as an outward block then cross over to the right side to block the opponents LH as you step through to the punch as well. Just depends on your teacher I guess.

If you look at my bung bo video you can see the rolling sticky hands I'm speaking of.

[German Bai Lung]

Hua Lin: its one move.

WhiteMonkey: I agree with Mantis Cool on that. He described it very good. I often teach that move without blocking, because in move two (the Tong Long Bou Sin - Mantis Catches Cicada) you catch the opponents arm and follow him while he was retreating. Not necessarly a new block is to make, but of course could.
The palm strike must be powerful and main target is the chest. But also you could attack the face.
It´s not only a transitional move!!! It´s a full move and must be performed like one (in both roads!).

So what is your application for the three techniques after Ba Wong Ching Haak (Double grabbing hand in Ma Bo)?
I mean:

Dang San Bo - Diu Sau followed by Pek Cheui (Bow Stance with Mantis Hand and Chop)
Dang San Bo - Au Lau Choi (Hook Grapple Pluck)
Step - Kwa Fu Bo - Siu Fan Che Cheui (Step in Tiger Riding Stance - Little Turning Wheel Punch)

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

sayloc
I don't train in Pong Lai which is why I defer to yu shan or 18elders to explain what they have. I have seen some of it though on video and in person. Believe it or not we get along fine offline. They have multiple lineages but I believe they do the 7 Star version.

I think the Big Mantis thread you refer to was the analysis of it as a version of Bung Bo (Mantis108 and Tainan Mantis).

GBL
Thanks. Counting moves confuses me. There doesn't seem to be any standard. At a Bagua seminar in China the teacher's idea of a move was a long (very long) string of movements. To others it's one block or one punch.

I believe WL Bung Bo is different after the double grabbing hands so the only ones that can comment on that are yu shan and 18elders.

I'm working on getting Big Mantis and Bung Bo so I'll have more input later.

[shirkers1]

By the way I wasn't implying that what I said before was the only way. Lately that's how I've been playing it, because I like the stickiness of attaching to the limb and striking with the same hand. I would rather punch then do a cutting palm strike to a hard target like the head or chest but that's what the form calls for so I see it played both ways.

[yu shan]

Appreciate this thread, Beng Bu is an awesome form. IMO, a person could easily spend years on getting all the benefits BB has to offer. Also thanks for asking my opinion/view on this move in BB. I totally agree with MantisCool with his explanation on move #3. I might add, this block we do with our left (followed by attack to chest) we do as a quick parry combined with the recoil stomp going after the opposing force.. kind of fast if ya know what I mean. This whole road is done quickly, JMO. Look forward to hearing more about BB. And yes ours is 7*, but has Master Shr`s flavor. If Tainan Mantis is out there, I really would like to know who taught this form to your Shifu, and laiyang or yantai? BTW, HLL I`m brushing off the moth balls with Big Mantis, this form is toooo nice not to share, plus I`ll be the only kid on the block who knows it. ;) New years resolution... going to put more soft warm fuzzies in my posting. :D

MantisCool

Thoughts and Prayers to you Sir and your countrymen.

[Young Mantis]

Originally posted by GermanMantis
Hi Sayloc,

Baat Wong Ching Haak or Seung Fung Sau (Double-grabbing Hand) is the following technique, when you go back in horse-riding stance.


GBL and GM,

In the WHF lineage, the two instances of "ma bo seung fung sao" have different names. "Baa Wong Chang Haak" is the name of the second of the two which is #16 in the WHF Bung Bo book. The first one, #10, which follows the "bui hou chui bo" technique is known as "suen sao heen yeurng" - "conveniently capturing the sheep".

The names are different because the action leading up to them are different. In the first one, after the low back kick, you are stepping down from the kick and so you use that momentum to pull the person in hence the "suen sao" - conveniently. In the second, you are stepping back from a right bow stance. This is a power move requiring you to pull the person forward as you step back. The names give a lot as to the intention and flavor of the movements even though they individually make look the same.

YM

[German Bai Lung]

Young Mantis: thanks for that!

Now if I remember right, Sifu Lee mentioned the name in a talk about Sap Baat Sau and Yi Lou Jaak Yiu. He explains the difference between the move in Yun Hau Bo and Ma Bo.
He also mentioned the two different names "Baak Yun Ching Haak" and "Ba Wong Ching Haak".
I automatically take the name for the move in the Bang Bo! Thank you once more for the clarification.
Do you got the chinese characters for the right name?
"suen sao heen yeurng"?

[monkeyfoot]

Right counter intercepting hand and Left counter intercepting hand.

This is the quick hand movements done 2 moves before the first panther/hand fanning at the end of bung bo.

The application is that the opponents right punch comes in and is hooked out of the air with the defenders right hand - and inwards twist is applied to the wrist and the left hand is used to break the opponents wrist.
The same can be done but with opposite hands if a left punch is thrown at you.

Anybody know any other applications to this?

Craig

[mantis108]

Tainan showed me his version of Bengbu which is quite similar to the HK 7 Star version otherwise known as Yantai Bengbu or Da Bengbu. But the 2 men of that is definitely different. Let's just call that Ponglai version Bengbu. It is quite different from CCK TCPM version also. In fact, the 2 men versions are completely different. So the Zuo Cha Zhang (left inserting palm) applications are different accordingly. Ponglai's version can actually use to attack the throat if we follow the form of Ponglai. It seems to me that most of us here are just a ted more polite by suggesting just attacking the chest or face. ;) But that's understandablely practice protocol. Of course to make this throat attack effective, the hand formation (still a palm) would be a little different. Now, I stress that this is by no means "hidden" application. It is simply a case of change certain details of the move so that it would be a fight ender. This is what Hui Shi (empty full) or Bian Hua of the move means in Mantis. BTW, I showed that hand formation to Tainan when he visited me. Anyway, it's a very cool/cruel move.

Mantis108

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

yu shan
Don't be getting too mushy on us now. :D

[MantisCool]

Thank you yu shan Shifu!

We have 2 sadness. One is the death of so many people and the other is, No countdown for New Year Eve! Our Government is too sad to validate a countdown and all permit for fireworks display are revoked. Instead, we are told to recite prayers.

[yu shan]

Understood MantisCool...understood! I will share this with you. This catastrophic accurance has affected and moved all of us! It is overwhelming to say the least.

M108

I hear you about this strike going to the throat, guess I was being nice. So the Bengbu Tainan demonstrated was Yantai? Can you give us info on why it was called (maybe) Da Bengbu? That means Big Mantis. And yes, the slight change in details can bring it to a fight ender.

HLL

You know I`ll slip up... :cool: I will keep my eyes on the horizon, there is so much information here... pure gold!

[German Bai Lung]

Quote:
"Dang San Bo - Diu Sau followed by Pek Cheui (Bow Stance with Mantis Hand and Chop)
Dang San Bo - Au Lau Choi (Hook Grapple Pluck)
Step - Kwa Fu Bo - Siu Fan Che Cheui (Step in Tiger Riding Stance - Little Turning Wheel Punch)"

Appl.:
1.: Block ´n Grap an incoming Attack, counter at Ellbow or shoulder or Head/Neck
2.: The Defense or a new Attack is countered with Hook - Grapple - Pluck
3.: If Au Lau Choi is blocked, grab this Block and step in with a nice Uppercut to the lever or short - rips. At the same time you can apply a kick to the groin.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I've seen Bung Bo performed with different hands in the section with th back kick. The hands circle and end in mantis hooks while executing the kick. Can anyone identify with branch does this?

It actually looks a little bit like beginning of Little Mantis but the left hands extends out in a hook.

[mantis108]

Hi Yu Shan,

Being nice is always a good thing. ;)

The Yantai Bengbu is also known as the Da Bengbu (Large Crash and Fill) because of the frequent use of Dengshan Shi (hill climbing stance). Because of this there is an air of Changquan (long fist). Since this version is quite popular in Yantai (some believe that Bengbu was first introduced in Yantai) , it is also known as Yantai Bengbu because of where it first popularized.

Laiyang Bengbu on the other hand has virtually no Dengshan Shi. It uses mainly Xiao Shi or Xiao Deng Shan Shi (little hill climbing stance). BTW, I think in older Quanpu this Xiao Shi is also known as Shi Ji Bu (Charater Ten step). Laiyang Bengbu is quite consistant with the rest of the Classical Tanglang of Liang Xuexiang. Elements of Bazhou can be found in this version. The curious thing about this is that the first road is almost identical to the first road of Meihwa Lu. Laiyang Bengbu is said to have kept in Laiyang where Liang Xuexiang was teaching until lately some of Jiang Hualong - Song Zide's descendents started teaching in Qingdao, Shandong.

The Ponglai version is in my mind Yantai Bengbu. Yet, the flavor is very unique. The flavor is consistant with the Mimen Lanjie that Tainan showed me. It has Sanhui Jiuhuan (3 Returns and 9 Rotations), Pai Da and Fajing (often one ich punch type) that pack quite an omph. I think this is truely a gem from Shrfu Shr Zheng Zhong.

The turn at the end of first road in Ponglai version and the CCK TCPM version is different. Ponglai version do this as a counter to opponent trying to dodge pass you to get your back. It uses one of the 8 shorts buttocks elbow/hip check. CCK TCPM do this similar to Laiyang Bengbu that you stick to the opponent's hand as he passes and grabs your hair from behind. You execute an elbow lock/armbar while pulling him down and towards you (Laiyang verison is much low while CCK TCPM is a bit higher in horse stance). It doesn't use the Buttocks elbow in this case. Ponglai version has an arm drag instead of the armbar. Both ways are fine and has it own place since both are base on the same principle of neutralize and attack at the same time. Of course, the following counters would make the whole thing go wild. That's where the fun begins. ;)

Hi Wolfen

I think there are plenty of Meihwa people in Laiyang.

Hualin,

Sorry, I have not seen that interpretaton. So.... In all honesty, it sounds like a Wushu movie fu to me. :eek: May be Team EXtreme Mantis (TEM). ;) :D [sorry can't help but poke fun at it.]

Warm regards

Mantis108

[sayloc]

108

you should write a book. Let me know when you do I am buying:)

Gathering information like that had to have taken much time and effort. Thanks for sharing with the strangers on the forum.

Informatin like this in like gold.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

mantis108
The version I described is on a tape that a friend made for me. It's from a training VCD and since I don't read or speak Chinese I can't tell the branch or the teacher.

I'll search the net and see if I can recognize him on any VCDs. I like that version and was wondering about the application difference.

Just ran and checked the video and luckily at the beginning there is some english. Funny thing though it says Qi Xing Tang Lang. It starts out with a dragon head logo then shows a guy in white in a field. When the instruction starts he's inside with an outdoor backdrop.

[yu shan]

Hui Laoshi

The one thing I notice most about Shr ZhengZong`s Bengbu and all the others I have seen.. is truly the Fajing energy! I think this is what makes a differance. Also, his partnered form is unique and distinct. I`m lucky to have seen him play Bengbu two-person in differant ways. Plus, just when you think the partnered form teaches you the universe, he has a whole new way at looking at it. Master Shr is a true master of applications in my book. Question, deng shan shi, can this be translated to Jade Ring stance? And thank you for reminding about the buttocks/hips check. There is so much to this form.

[German Bai Lung]

deng shan shi is hill climbing stance or Dang san Bo in cantonese.

Jade Ring is Ru or Yu Huan Shi in cantonese Yap Wan Bo!

See also the newest MQ! (seems to be that this Magazin becoming more and more indispensable!)

[yu shan]

GBL

Just received my order of all past issues of the quarterly. Talking about a dynamite Christmas present!!! I have some reading to do. Yu Huan Shi... thanks!

My 18 Elders form is 7* with dengshan shi stances. I have recently seen this form played pretty darn close to what I have, but the dengshan shi is all replaced by Yu Huan Shi. Does this make it Meiwua?

[mantis108]

Hi Sayloc,

Thank you for the kind words and support. :) I truely appreciate that. Honestly, I have a lot of help from a lot of high calibur practitioners of our beloved art. So, I don't think I can claim any experties on the material. I believe that Ilya Profatilov, Mike Martello, and Kevin Brazier are currently working on some book projects. I think these are certianly noteable material soon to be released. As for myself, I would love to come up with something in the future. Right now I think having the oppotunity to share with the public is great especially in veiw of what is happening with our world these days. If by sharing our little good fortune and making the world just a little bit nicer and friendlier, I think we won't regret that we have lived in such trying time. Our lives are still somewhat meaningful while much of what is happening in the world is pretty senseless.

Hi Hualin,

The move you described is from an actual training video?! I really don't know what to say, my friend except that buyers beware. I honestly could not see how the app in question would work except perhaps in a pre arranged sequence. I guess I will give it benefit of the doubt until I can see it. I don't mean to offend your friend nor the producer of the video. But I am a skeptic in this case.

Hi Yu Shan,

Glad you have received all the back issue. I would love to hear your feed back as you go through them.

I generally agree with GBL on the traslations. However, in Classical Tanglang terminology, Yu Huan Shi (Jade Ring Stance) doesn't exist. It is Yu Huan Shou or Yu Huan Bu. It basically is a transition from right Xiao Shi - Zuo Pan Shi - left Xiao Shi. The name Yu Huan IMHO is attributed to a famous Tang dynasty emperor's consort Yang Yu Huan. The intricate footwork of Yu Huan Bu describes the way the fair lady moves gracefully and delicately. There is also a famous Peking opera play about the drunken frolic of the "Noble Consort ". If you look at the mechanics of Yu Huan Bu closely, it does remarkably resemble a lady or a drunkard's movement. BTW, Ru Huan (enter the ring) is a 7 Stars terminology as far as I am aware.

Deng Shan shi (hill climbing/hiking stance) definitely describes a very somber and strong stance. ;) In a way, you could say the Deng Shan Bu (Gang) and Yu Huan Bu (Rou) footwork are like Yin Yang.

Hope this answers your question.

Mantis108

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I think the training VCD is from Master Rui-ting Hou (http://www.wushumedia.com/vcd.asp?code=2&ID=QXL01 ).

Guess it's a modern Wushu version.

Sample here:

opening (http://www.geocities.com/hualinmantis/video/7Star_BungBo.avi)

kick (http://www.geocities.com/hualinmantis/video/BungBo_kick.avi)

[mantis108]

Thanks for going to all that trouble for the clips. I really appreciate it.

Hou Rui Ting is quite famous and respected in the Mainland Mantis community. He also professed to know the forms listed in the Shaolin Authentics. I think he used to be on the Mainland Mantis forum as well. So he's quite approachable.

I watched the kick part. My impression is that isn't really a mantis hook hands while performing the kick. His hands did flick and somewhat look turned though (some type of Fajing IMHO because it was just a fraction of a second). I can't said his interpretation of the form is my cup of tea; nevertheless, it is enjoyable. Frankly, these days I am more concerned about how the apps are like rather than how impressive the performance of the forms by the stylist. So seeing clips like these often don't provide a good picture of how well does the stylist fair. I do think that this type of performance certainly will do fairly well in form competitions. This is by no mean suggest that this is Wushu although the way the stances are held would not likely render him or his students in serious disadvantage against modern Wushu stylists in form competitions.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Young Mantis]

Originally posted by German Bai Lung
deng shan shi is hill climbing stance or Dang san Bo in cantonese.

Jade Ring is Ru or Yu Huan Shi in cantonese Yap Wan Bo!

See also the newest MQ! (seems to be that this Magazin becoming more and more indispensable!)

GBL,

Actually, the Cantonese for Jade Ring would be "Yook Wan". HK 7* does not use this term as Mantis108 points out. We use "Yup Wan" which Mantis108 translates as "enter the ring". Personally, I don't believe the "Wan" character is used as a noun - ring. I think it is an adverb so I translate it as "round entering stance" which I think is very fitting for the way we use this step to enter our opponents space and trap the leg for a takedown.

I believe that the Jade Ring and Round Entering stances are the same and that the name difference most likely occurred because of an error in transcribing oral transmission. In Mandarin, they sound almost identical. Personally, Round Entering makes more sense in physically describing the action and usage of the stance than Jade Ring without having to grasp at other possible influences for the name but maybe someone has some historical documents to prove either.

YM

[MantisCool]

I think YM is correct. We called the stance as "Yup Wan" or
".... entering stance". I think it is a preposition.

It is used as a squatting stance and normaly attack the lower half of the opponent where the defence is lower or maybe when the opponent also lowered down.

[Young Mantis]

Hi Mantiscool,

Funny you should call it a squatting stance. We usually refer to it as the kneeling stance. :)

YM

[MantisCool]

Hi! Young Mantis

I dont know the exact wordings but I think kneeling is not very correct either! Maybe, it is half squat and half kneel! :D

MC

[flem]

yu shan/18 elders,

I am confused. If all traditional mantis (or I should say mantis that does not have the influence of other styles) are taught as two-person sets, then how can there be any confusion over apps? Also, I noticed somewhere in this thread one of you suggested that Master Shr has additional apps for certain moves, I don't understand how that can be. Now I usually seem to come across as an ass, and I don''t mean to. If there is more than one app to a two person form, what's the "real" way. Is there a "real" way. Also, do you learn alternate app's for the same movement in different forms? Like in wl some moves are repeated throughout the curriculum.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by Hua Lin Laoshi
...
At the end of the first run you turn and execute a right kick behind the left leg. First off, anyone have a name for this kick?

I've heard it called the "Leg-Sprouting" kick in, I think it was, Lee Kam Wing's 2nd book.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by WhiteMonkey
Thanks shirkers1, but thats not the move, thats move #2 .

The move after that with the left palm strike,#3, with the hoping step, before move #4, the forward right hand punch?

How do you use it ?

Is it a full move or just a transitional move?

What is your target when used?

Why the step?

One application I have used is where the palm-heel is used to attack the nose or the eye, and follow QUICKLY with the next movement in the form, which is a right lunge-punch whether the palm strike was blocked or not.

Or, the left-palm can be used to forcefully "mush" your opponents head back, to create some distance between your fist and his head (and distract), and strike QUICKLY with the next movement in the form, the right straight punch.

In the applications listed above, the left palm strike is more of a "fake" or "distraction" than a show-stopper. Kind of like a western boxer's "one-two" punch, with the "one" being the left palm strike, and the "two" being the right straight punch. Also, by "fake", I don't mean it isn't supposed to hit it's target hard, just that it isn't the MAIN strike in the combination your throwing. In Bung-Bo (HK 7*), you still have (potentially) 2 straight punches, one knee strike, 1 elbow strike, and a back-fist to throw. But to respond to your question, I'll only speak on movements #3 (palm strike) and #4 (straight/lunge punch).

I'd like to add that using this combination as listed above, you could either throw the left palm strike with the left foot forward, then "lunge" forward with the right leg as you throw the right lunge-punch (just like the form), or after the left palm strike use the left "Monkey Step" (left forward shuffle) while you throw the right straight punch, OR use no step AT ALL when throwing the left palm strike and the right straight punch.

In my opinion, the main thing with these two movements in Bung Bo, used as listed above, is that the palm strike and fist strike are thrown out consecutively. Two strikes in succession, as opposed to the "You strike then I block, then I strike and you block, then you strike then I block...". Not that there is anything wrong with that approach to this particular technique. In the HK 7* 2-Man version of this form, it is just like that (you strike then I block...). Some PM techniques can't be thrown consecutively like this one, although I can't think of any right now.

Of course, the form should be done the way you learned it. The apps can be experimented with a little more than the forms.

Other apps posted by mantids on this thread I agree with.

P.S.: I can't BELIEVE I had soo much of nuthin to say about these two movements.

[German Bai Lung]

Hi Young Mantis,

you are right. I don´t figured it out exactly enough, so it was misunderstandable. Good you cleared that.

Mantisben:
Like I mentioned it before, the kick is called in Cantonese "Bui Tek Ma"
(bei ti ma).
The sprouting kick is called "Jau Toi" (jiu tui in Mandarin) and is a kind of sweep. See Bang Bo the second last road, right before the jump with the eye plucking hand movement!

[Young Mantis]

Originally posted by MantisCool
Hi! Young Mantis

I dont know the exact wordings but I think kneeling is not very correct either! Maybe, it is half squat and half kneel! :D

MC

Oh, I hope you understand I was not trying to say kneeling is a better word than squatting. I was actually trying to say how similar they are.

YM

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Here it is again in slow motion (luckily it's a training tape).

slo-mo (http://www.geocities.com/hualinmantis/video/slow_motion.avi)

So I take it nobody here plays the set this way?

I was just wondering, since he doesn't show apps or ling, if there was a different application for this move. Seems to me there could be a different interpretation of this section.

Since this person is respected in the Mainland Mantis community I don't think the differences can be shrugged off.

Personally, and obviously I'm no expert, I don't think it's a kick but rather a stepping motion used to rapidly move in and retreat (finishing the attack) while maintaing balance. It's a modification of the full cross step/stance but quicker since the foot never touches ground. In this case the arm is grabbed, the eyes attacked (look closely) then opponent is wrenched off balance while breaking the arm.

One reason I don't buy the jump behind you is why would anyone do that? Why go from one side to the other? Especially if you could go halfway and have his undefended back? Looks nice in the 2-man but not realistic IMHO.

[mantis108]

Hi Hualin,

The move in question is a counter to the opponent's intent to grab your hair/head while making a pass. This is pretty much across the board regardless of style that have this form as far as I am aware. Now if there is a superb duper secret family Bengbu that I have not seen before, I would love to see it and learn the apps as well.

The key of the move is aganist someone who turns the table on me using Zhan Zhuan Teng Nuo. Hair/head grabbing is a big thing in Mantis. There is an entire section in older Quanpu just devouted to this type of techniques. Old Masters of Mantis knew the effectiveness of this, they trian both the apps and counters to it. Why is it so effect? Because once upon a time in China, people either bundled their hair or briaded their hair. Your head simply follows where your hair goes. This is a great handle like the neck, triceps, biceps, lats, etc... It is not some ultra secretive stuff even cavemen and cat fights in the bar use this instinctively. Most people don't use that anymore is because nowaday long hair is no longer a fashionable or functional thing and we have lost much of our instinct that we have to relearn it. The greatest benefit of hair grab especially from behind is that it's just as effective as a clinch but not as crude as a clinch (at least in appearance). One might call it head trapping (immobilizing). This makes it ideal for an art like mantis.

Now of course, if you make the pass (not wanting to hair grab) and the other guy is just stand there like an idiot then by all means do whatever you see fit. You can punch and kick the living day lights out of him or rear bear hug him and drop his head on the floor WWF style. Mantis simply offers a mean through this move in the Bengbu form for your consideration to deal with such a pass with a body check or stick and follow through.

Just some thoughts to share with you.

Mantis108

[sayloc]

This is also called "grab the mullet"

Got to love the guys who keep the 80's hair styles going :)

[BeiTangLang]

I am a firm believer in the idea that many (ok,..most) forms contain movements to deal with not just a single, but multiple attackers. The movements are guide-lines for real world usage and not just a set of techniques that you run together with all the time.

I see a great value in the ling side of forms, but no as great a value in using them to train the first side. To me, their value stands in what they do unto themselves (stand-alone) rather than what they do for the parent form.

HLL, as for as the section you posted is concerned; to me, the turning /block/kick/insert your own iterpretation, movement is more about the concept of CYA than any specific ling movement.

Best Wishes to everyone for a great new Year BTW!
~BTL
(crawls back under his rock)

[yu shan]

Hua Lin Laoshi

You will have to excuse my lack of Chinese terminology it is the only void in my training in PL. And I`m going to back up a bit in the form on a move that is not getting much attention so far. After I hopefully block the punch and knee attack we follow up with an elbow strike downward to the shoulder/arm, this can hurt in itself. If the form is able to continue, my Shifu follows with this backfist. Sometimes my Shifu uses a sort of "rolling" backfist and he uses it as a takedown sort of. He basically crashes thru my face with the backfist as a takedown... this happens when I fail to get my right hand up to block. If I get the block off on the powerful backfist with my right hand/arm, I attack his armpit with a tigerclaw (left hand), then as fast as I can, gain control of arm with both hands and yank like h e l l in a sort of rowing motion. Now this ling side guy attacking the armpit or tricep muscle yanking the bung lu side guys arm off, I literally pull him face first into the pavement. This is an important move for the ling side. By using this rowing arm drag down, can end the form right there. If the bung lu side is able to continue and not get taken down by his arm, as I`m pulling down I`m also jumping by either slapping him in the face or pop him in the back of head ( replace with hair grab or elbow). As I jump by, I hug if not brush as close to him as I can. Bung side turns head in my direction tries to block my slap with his right hand, then he delivers the kick and strike to face/throat/stones. I would MUCH rather show this in person, then you can see how effective these few movements of BOTH the Bung side and the ling side. I`m telling you man, the way Shr ZhengZhong teaches his two man forms are not dance like. And the form can be ended abruptly by either side. If you make it to Ohio, I`d really enjoy going over this with you. And sorry if I carried this out too far, I`m a hands on, not type on! :D

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

mantis108
Thanks for the historical perspective on the move. I was unaware that there was a head grab there and, unfortunately for me, I don't see the move defending against the head grab. The rear kick could be a defense against a kick to back of knee collapsing the leg but I believe if the opponent is positioned correctly the hands have no effect. The only way it works is with an incorrect positioning by the opponent. Just my opinion.

And I do like head grabs. Last guy I took down was with a head grab.

So you don't see any difference in application with the variation of hands in this version?

yu shan
You and me both on the Chinese terminology. This has been bugging me for some time.

"as I`m pulling down I`m also jumping by either slapping him in the face or pop him in the back of head"

I've seen John do this.

"Bung side turns head in my direction tries to block my slap with his right hand"

Here's where I see a problem. That, to me, is an incorrect response (at least not something I would do). You will be hit before you can turn far enough to block (turning where he will be rather than where he is). Especially if the hit is to the face as he jumps by.

I also see the kick and hand strike as being mutually exclusive. Being in range for the hand strike puts you out of range for the kick. Guess I'll just have to go over this.

BTW, as I've mentioned before I haven't learned Big Mantis or Bung Bo yet but they're currently in the works.

If I can make it out to Ohio I'll hopefully have at least Big Mantis, which does the move same as Pong Lai, by then.

[tanglang69]

How about if...


Originally posted by yu shan
Hua Lin Laoshi

After I hopefully block the punch and knee attack we follow up with an elbow strike downward to the shoulder/arm, this can hurt in itself. If the form is able to continue, my Shifu follows with this backfist. Sometimes my Shifu uses a sort of "rolling" backfist and he uses it as a takedown sort of. He basically crashes thru my face with the backfist as a takedown... this happens when I fail to get my right hand up to block. If I get the block off on the powerful backfist with my right hand/arm, I attack his armpit with a tigerclaw (left hand), then as fast as I can, gain control of arm with both hands and yank like h e l l in a sort of rowing motion. Now this ling side guy attacking the armpit or tricep muscle yanking the bung lu side guys arm off, I literally pull him face first into the pavement.

...at this point the bung lu side is in half kneeling with a rolling backfist that was caught by the ling side with a right hand block/grab followed by a left hand grab to the tricep. Now the ling side pulls to his right and tries to sweep the bung lu's front foot with his right leg. The bung lu's leg motion backwards can be a counter to the leg sweep (getting it out of the way). The arm movements can be peeling the ling side's grab off of your arm. Now the bung lu side ends in the horse stance with a right side hammerfist strike to the ling side's body. If bung lu side positions his right leg far enough behind the ling side person, you can use it as a takedown. Now add some fajing to it.

Now we used it in a different manner against the same person.

This is just my 2 cents worth from my "Go and figure it out yourself days".

Everyone have a wonderful day.

Oved
tanglang69:D

[mantis108]

You are most welcome, my friend.

One of the characteristics of Tanglang is faking high and hit low or vice versa. Sometimes it attacks the front but end up striking the opponent at the back. Most of the time, it's the opponent falls into the trap that you set up for him. I think you would remember the Xian Zhua application clips that I shared before. Little details changed means different things. That's why IMHO Tanglang is a very beautiful art.

Honestly, the kick to either block or take out the knee as an alternate app is IMHO very low percentage. I mean sure Jet Li or Tony Jaa (the Ong Bak guy) might be able to do in a controlled environment. But average MA Joe Dough like me aren't going to be able to pull it off. ;)


Here's where I see a problem. That, to me, is an incorrect response (at least not something I would do). You will be hit before you can turn far enough to block (turning where he will be rather than where he is). Especially if the hit is to the face as he jumps by.

Well, you see that's where ergonormically correct posture doesn't necessary means aesthetically pleasing. You would actually be tilting slightly forward with your body while standing on the one leg (left). This way your butt is naturally up. That's where the Buttocks elbow comes in. It is all natural and ergonormically correct but looks kind of odd. The right leg also follows the tilt of the body to prop up aiding the hip check as a trip. So you would get the passing guy either way. Now I was literally bummed and landed squarely on my butt by a almost 200 lbs Tainan as I was passing through him the first time he showed me this app. BTW, I weighted about 120 lbs. So float like a butterfly and sting like a bee doesn't always work. lol... :D The hands are there for added protection mostly. So you see this is neutralize and attack at the same time and is very natural. But the posture does look a bit akward and not that elegant. Classic Tanglang is mostly ergonormically correct but not necessarily aesthetically pleasing.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[JadeMantis]

Hi All

I must say this is one great forum for info on our wonderful art, keep up the good work.

Now I'm new to this, my first post so if its in the wrong place I appologise.

I've only been training for about 18 months and thought its about time to get the info I have down on paper so its not forgotten.

So I'll start at the beginning with Bung Bo.

I'm looking for some info on the Chinese translation of some of the moves from Bung Bo, Ill list then below.

Move 1 : The Palm Block

Move 4 : The Palm Strike

Move 6 : The Leg Knee Strike with Hand Grab and Punch.

Move 7 : The Elbow Strike.

That should do me for now, there's loads more but hopefully you'll let me ask about those later.

Many thanks in advance for you help.

Its an honour to be able to speak with such experiance practitioners from around the world. :)

[JadeMantis]

Sorry guys also meant to say that I've looked in the Terminology aboe and cant seem to marry up the descriptions with the Chinese.

Cheers :confused:

[JadeMantis]

Got them all sorted now apart from the elbow.

LKW's book only states a "Right Elbow Strike"

I know elbow is Zhou but dont know what would go with that to make the full description.

Any help would be much appreciated.

Many thanks in advance.

JM

[MantisifuFW]

JadeMantis,

The term is Die Zhou 疊肘, literally translated "pile up" elbow.

To learn the Chinese for the techniques you use is indeed an important step in your mastery of the art. I encourage you to continue your studies.

A good book/recording of the Pinyin method of spelling and pronouncing the Mandarin for the terms is an excellent start. You can buy them online and fairly cheaply. Don't worry about a kit with extensive language/ grammar study at first.

I will have a book that focuses exclusively on reading the movements of the forms in Mandarin available this Spring or Autumn. We are testing it now and everyone who has used it says they can read the Chinese for the movements fairly well.

We will let everyone know when it is ready. In the meantime, continue with your studies and if you have questions, ask!

Steve Cottrell

[GermanMantis]

Hi JadeMantis,

as MantisifuFW remarks it is "Dip Jau" (cant.) for the elbowstrike.

Here are the names for the beginning movements as fare as i know:

Kwa Fu Yau Bo Cheui 跨虎右補捶 / Palmblock striking fist
Tong Long Bou Sin 螳螂捕僚 / Double grapping hand
Dang Saan Jo Chaap Jeung 登山左插掌 / thrusting Palm
Dang Saan Yau Bo Cheui 登山右補捶
Jung Fung Tong Cheui 縱封捅捶
Yap Waan Yau Dip Jau 入環右叠肘 / elbowstrike
Yap Waan Bang Cheui 入環崩捶
Bui Hau Taam Bou 背後探寶
Ma Sik Seung Fung Sau 馬式雙封手 / double grapping hand

I made some remarks, so you can identify the techniques. It is not a translation for the name of the technique.
Best regards,
Chris

[GermanMantis]

Hmmm it seems that we have different characters for the elbowstrik. I'll have to look it up.

[JadeMantis]

Many Thanks for your help and advice MantisifuFW and GermanMantis.

I believe to ensure you have a full understanding of our art then the terminology must be learnt along side the techniques. This is just one more facet of a wonderful life changing experience.

I would be very interested in your book Steve when it is published please keep us updated.

I am sure I will have a few more questions later as I record the forms and would be greatly appreciative if you could kelp me out.

Many Thanks again

Darren

[MantisifuFW]

Hmmm it seems that we have different characters for the elbowstrik. I'll have to look it up.

GermanMantis, I think, (though I am always open to correction) they are alternate views of the same character. Please see:

www.zhongwen.com and go to the pinyin section. If you type in "die" you will see both you version and the one I used.

Hope it helps,

Steve Cottrell

[GermanMantis]

Ah thanks Steve! This gives me a little bit relief. I think sometime the names of the branches even in HK varies, but i may be wrong.
Many thanks for your explanation!
Best regards,
Chris

[German Bai Lung]

I think it´s better to be careful with such terms as wrong or right in an absolute manner. There are in fact many different solutions and also applications in this case.

To your questions, whoknowho, you first must realize: the kick is not being applied while pulling your opponent!
The kick is applied, in our version of 7*, while blocking and counterattack with a positive/negative palm (Yam Yong Jeung). This will focus the attention of the opponent to the upper part and you be able to make a surprising attack with your feet! (See also: ba gang/the eight hard article in the MQ) Also the kick is hidden by the fact that is performed the way it is: behind your rear leg! This make him hard to avoid! As I mentioned before: I did apply this Kick in fighting. And it works.


To your second question:
the faning move is the same like the move with seung diu sau and the jau toi: you grap your opponent´s arm, hit to his head with your other arm and while focusing the attention once again to the upper part you move your leg behind the opponents leg and perform a sweep.
Of course ther are other applications possible!

[holymantis]

i have to agree with you jochen ,
the kick is the surprise package in my linanage as well.
and it work's well



holymantis

[German Bai Lung]

All good questions, but I must say: answers are not difficult to find!

1: Same question you can ask within every technique! "What if the opponent ..." answer is: be faster! And know a next move! There is no final solution, no technique without the chance of being countered!
To be explicit: if you are aware of your opponent seeing you preparing for the kick: don´t apply it! The kick is for surprising only! Also it is that short, thats nearly impossible to counter with the technique you described.

2: the faning hand slaps to the ear of the opponent. The weight is on the back-leg because to prevent hits to the head and to use your weight to pull the opponent on his frontleg. I will make a clip this evening to show you how it will work .... :rolleyes:

3: I hit to the waist because I am able to do so. I can also hit to the head or shoulder. Also it´s because of a better function of the sweep. If my opponent is quick and prevent the sweep, I move on with next technique: Hyun cheui! Like it is in the Bang Bo. Hey: look at your forms! All answer are in there! :eek: :D

[German Bai Lung]

Hi Whoknowswho,

most of your questions are not from substance, sorry. But they could be answered like: well, if you apply it in this way, its another technique. You see: if you kick in front, you got a jaat toi. If you pull with both hands (instead of cutting palm to the kidneys) you got Baak Yun Ching Haak/Invitation of the white ape.

Okay, before we continue, I got a little quickshot clip of the applications in question.
This evening not time for preparation and only a beginner for partner, so please no comments on the qualities! :o

CLIP (http://www.bailung.de/mov/appli.mov)

[jwwmantis]

In the move for Q1, after the kick, the attacker comes at you with an attack using his left arm, then you intercept with your right hand and just after that use your left hand to do elbow chin na. You push away slightly with your left leg to give yourself that extra second to get your technique to work before he can hit you with his right hand. Not sure if you follow this but thats just my take on it.

Later in the form there is some wrist chin na. The same concept should be used to control the opponent with a wrist lock. The way this lock is played out it would be difficult to break someones wrist which is bendable and strong. Again, just my take on whats happening in the form.

jwwmantis

[JadeMantis]

JW - I see where your coming from and agree with you there. Also on the intercept it could be a tech to off balance the opponent and set him up for another strike to the head/neck.

YouKnowWho - What about the back kick to the groin, this could work if you are in close enough and your leg is flexible enough. Also thinking about it, could the kick be used as a block for a low kick directed at our lead leg ??

MantisSifu, German Mantis & German Bai Lung
If you dont mind would you be able to give me the Chinese Terminology for the following moves in Bung Bo ??

Move 30
The Palm Shearing and Mantis Spys Tha Cave

Move 35 & 36
The Counter Intercept / Wrist Lock

Also would you be able to clarify move 23

Upward Elbow Strike
Would you call it Ti Zhou : Raising Elbow

Thanks for all your help and insight

JM

[GermanMantis]

Move 30:

Jin Jeung Tong Long Taam Dung 翦掌螳螂探洞

Move 35 (wrist lock) is:

Chou Cheui 措捶

Sorry i'm a little bit in a hurry, there for this short answer.
Best regards,
Chris

[JadeMantis]

No problem Chris. I greatly appreciate your time and help.

Many Thanks

Darren

[mantisben]

...
- The #9 kick right leg behind the left leg are using the power from the leg only and not from the waist.


Forget the hands in the technique from here on know as "#9".

Have you ever thrown #9 against a punching bag while the bag was propped-up against a wall? Try throwing #9 against a wall or a door, landing the kick flat-footed against the surface. If the target is not as high as the knee, but higher than the ankle, it has force to it. If the target of #9 is too high, it loses force as it elevates. If the target is below the knee, but above the ankle, you can whip your waist counter-clockwise into the kick to generate alot of force. Now that I think about it, #9 isn't even EFFECTIVE if you don't whip your waist counter-clockwise when you throw the kick.

Throwing #9 against a tree, without using the hand technique, "enlightened" me (that's what it felt like, at least) as to how this technique is supposed to be thrown.

It's not a show-stopper of a technique, but it is effective. #9 thrown properly can take the opponents leg with all the weight on it right out from underneath them, if done properly.

[jwwmantis]

So are you saying whereever this "back" kick shows up in any forms is incorrect? I know it is used in flying goose palm. When I do the kick the waist is actually utilized a little.

On the first 3 principles, as you strike, you have the "pluck" action, and the punch has extension, whereas you are rooted to the ground. This shows up in several other forms as well. The need to advance forward s not really a necessity.

Just my take on this. Innteresting stuff though.

jwwmantis

[mantisben]

The problem in #9 is that your upper body spin to your left (counter clockwise - top view) with both palms striking but the right leg spin to your right (clockwise - top view) with the kick behind your left leg.

When you throw the kick in #9 correctly (in my opinion), the waist "naturally" whips counter-clockwise. Also, if your kick misses, it will be easier to maintain your balance with your waist's momentum going counter-clockwise. However, if you try throwing the kick in #9 while the waist is spinning clockwise, you'll have to make it a totally different kick to make it effective. It then becomes, a totally different technique. The position of the foot changes, as well as the striking suface of the foot.


How can you generate power on your hands and kick at the same time when your body are spinning in different directions?



Since the kick in #9 naturally causes your waist to "whip" counter-clockwise, it is a good time to make use of, what is called "Gow" and "Pow". Sifu Carl Albright calls this "Reeling" and "Casting".

Allow the momentum of the waist "whipping" in the counter-clockwise direction - caused by proper execution of the #9 kick - to launch your hands at your opponents face in the form of a back slap, that can turn into a hair-pulling, neck-yanking, bridge-establishing "feint the upper/lower to attack the lower/upper" technique.

As far as generating power for the #9 back-slap, slaps "generally" aren't knock-out techniques. A Back-Slap is a structurally fast technique, much like the Boxer's Jab. I'm sure an Iron-Palm practicioner, or Mike Tyson can generate a helluva back-slap. But usually, a Back-Slap is not a "Widow-Maker".

An Eye-Poke can probably replace the Back-Slap. Now, you don't even need to generate too much power on your hands for the technique to be effective, as long as your technique is "accurate".

[mantisben]

...
- The #12 in Bung Bo after the #11 hammer fist, The Gou Lou Tza Shau, the ending punching strike from the arm only and not from the root (should hop forward on the ending punch).
...


The technique "Gou Lou Tza Shau" - #12 from here on - comes just before #13, which is a short Upper-Cut punch. Very often, upper-cut punches are knock-out punches, when they strike their target accurately, and with force. Upper-Cuts are "generally" not thrown from a long-range, but from close range. So, when you use #12, without moving forward, there is a good chance that you'll be in the correct punching range to deliver #13. Remember, #11 is the technique with the Hammer-fist which brings you in close, then #12 is executed from close, which, if it lands, is effective, but probably not as damaging as if you had thrown Gou Lou Tza moving in from mid-range. In boxing matches, people don't often get knocked-out from right-crosses executed from close-range. A popular boxing combination is to throw a right-cross while closing the gap, or while their opponent is up against the ropes, followed by a left upper-cut. Time and again, to this day, this combination is proven to be an effective techniqe.

How I see it, #12 and #13 is the "somewhat" boxing equivalent of the Right-Cross (#12) followed by the Left Upper-Cut (#13).

To make it clear, the attack in Bung Bo #12 is NOT supposed to stop at #12, but it stops at #13. #11, #12, and #13 are supposed to go together as a combination. You could use each technique individually, depending on the situation. However, when used together, they form one of those rapid-fire attacking combinations that Praying Mantis is known for.

I wonder if there is a name for the Bung Bo #12/#13 combination because it shows up in WHF 7* PM "18 Old Men" (4th Road), "Spear Hand" (1st Road), "14 Roads" (#8), and "White Ape Steals The Peach" (3rd Road).

One final note, in the form "White Ape Steals The Peach", #12 is actually executed with steps launching you forward (Replacing Step) followed by #13, so it DOES exist with the "hop forward on ending punch" variation you described.

I have to add that I learned the forms listed above as passed down from the WHF lineage. As you know, the forms will vary from one lineage to another.