Pause for thought

[HeartbreakRidge]

I know there are thousands of threads regarding the certain slanderous comments between kai uwe pel and lee kam wing, about incorrect teaching and lineage etc, but it seems we have missed alot of the core principles of mantis, do you think a person sat 300-400 years ago studying a mantis in the hope of working out how to disunite the martial arts world, now i know people would critisise my lack of knowledge and thats okay, because think about it, most masters of old, they didnt start with knowledge, but they started with an idea, and the determination to see this idea to fullfillment, but in this world knowledge is also mispriced, and sells for a lot more than its worth, because at the end of the day, if i practice just two forms for hours or i had accumulated sixty or seventy but practiced them when they tv broke down, who would be the better practitioner, which is why all of us, should be dedicated to becoming teachers, or masters, or rich, but remaining beginners, and still seeing the techniques even though we may master them eventually, with the same wander and awe as when we very first saw them practiced, and that way with a continued respect for the art, we might have a greater respect for the practioners of that art, so i put this question forward to the masses, what makes a good mantis practioner?

[Tainan Mantis]

Thanks Wolfen,
That quote is good nuf to hang across the door of a kwoon

[sayloc]

"In the old days men sought knowledge in order to improve themselves. Now men seek knowledge to impress other people."

"A man should not worry that other people has failed to recognize his merits, he should only worry that he has failed to recognize the merits of other people".

Confucious

Seems ego was a problem back in the smart guys time also!

Making public a challenge, bickering over who is the meanest, badest, toughest........childish.

[daohong]

sayloc,
Should challenges be private?

Tainan,
did you get my last email?

[sayloc]

Daohong,

A challenge over the net to someone you have never met should be private. I am not sure I have seen any of this type of challenge on this forum but I have on others.

I feel a public challenge is more about ego and the person issuing the challenge is probably not serious in the first place or the challenger would just go to that person and take care of business without making a public statement.

I think this would make the style of the challenger look foolish and immature.

"Men do not beat drums before they hunt for tigers"

My definition of a challenge may be different. If a guy says " hey sayloc, you do 8 step and I do seven star, lets get together for some san shou or the like and see how we deal with each other". I may say "sure just dont kick my a$$ to bad". I dont consider that a challenge. Thats just good old fashion fun! I would have to know the guy, dont want to deal with any goof balls.

A match and a challenge are different. I consider the hardcore k1 stuff a match.

I see a challenge as someone has a real problem with the other person. I would think that a challenge duel as this could easily end in death.

You would not be very smart to issue a public challenge and then end up killing someone (accidents do happen). Stupid, Stupid, Stupid. You would make alot of friends in prison. Even if the guy agrees. The dead persons mother will take the net files and show the judge or government. You just convicted yourself. If the challenger has not thought of this, it is obvious he/she is not experienced in these types of "challenges".

Before someone shows up at a guys house that he does not know to kick their a$$ they should be prepared to get a 45 slug between thier eyes.

That is what a warrior from 400 years ago would do today.

Have a nice day :)

[yu shan]

I personally do not believe in challenges. I say you show up and man up if this is what you want to do. My KF Uncle Tainan Mantis has been thru numerous challenges. And someday, I hope to sit and hear all the stories. Posting on the net, or to speak with excessive pride about beating down... not good with me. An approach I`d take, make friends... and learn. You can certainly learn by friendly crossing of hands, and maybe even make a brother for life. If a group handles themselves a certain way, says this and says that... people know the truth. It kind of makes me sick with all the s h i t going on in the world, I think we as Mantis Boxers should show our true colors. I like to think we have class.

Sayloc had a nice quote:

"men do not beat drums before they hunt for tigers"

[sayloc]

Yushan,

Here is a couple more from my brother

"Empty barrels make the loudest noise"

"Go outside and practice falling down. I will be out in an hour".

I think you would have to be nuts to challenge this tainan guy. Seems like he knows his stuff, and does not have to bragg. I would like to set down and have some tea with him. That is a more comfortable way to learn :)

wolfen,

Great story! Havnt heard that one.



For all the challengers out there, Go join the US army. You only have to join for two years. They will send you to Irag and you can prove yourself. If you have a death wish, join the other side. The USA armed forces will help you on yur journey!

OOh Raah!!!

[shang wu]

We often lose our focus; mantis and CMA in general have a deep history in self-cultivation. It seems that all of this small talk is off the mark! People would do better to spend their time training and cultivating themselves and sharing in meaningful relationships rather than beating their chest. It all gets old. Ask yourself? Really,do you think old time fighters would be doing all this? NOT . And where would any of us be if someone was not willing to share some knowledge with us and inspire us to do the hard work. I say lets train, and be gentlemen .

[daohong]

sayloc,

Thanks for that explanation, after I posted I realized that you might not take me seriously... I appreciate it, and now I see what you mean clearly. I guess what I mean then is, do you have any opinions about the manner in which schools used to challenge each other or even a teacher demanding that a school close or a "Fake" stop teaching? I have heard a story from several people about a Taiji teacher getting knocked around in a park in Taizhong after he told another teacher he couldn't teach in that particular area because it was "his" teaching spot. Many people were there. I think the guy who was rough with him was a mantis practitioner. Is this just simply bad behavior do you think? And which Guy was in the wrong if either were?
Thanks again.

[sayloc]

Hi Daohong,

I am glad you did not think I came across to harsh. I thought that you may have been making one of these challenges yourself. I was not sure how far you had thought it through and wanted let you know that prison time or worse could be in your future if things went "bad".

I understand now that you are not thinking of this just looking for opinions.

You have to understand that many of these "old chllenges" were due to money. The mantis guy was in that area because it was probalbly the best place in that park to teach. That is where people knew to find him, and this was probably a source of income. The new guy comes in and tries to take the spot he has taught at for ten years. It may have been a mistake or intentional, who knows. I could see why the mantis guy would be upset, but I think they should have been able to work things out.

I have read on posts that tainan mantis teaches alot in parks. What if he has taught in the same place for the past ten years and a baji guy comes up and starts teaching in the same place that tainan does every saturday? I think the tainan guy should be allowed to use his original spot and time. But, then again it is a public park.

The same type of things happend in the towns, A hung ga guy moves in and takes the mantis guys business.

The other thing to remember is that alot of these things that happened were over organized crime. Opium, Prostitutes and the like. The schools were not just teaching kung fu, so there was a lot more $$ at stake. These are the people who will kill you.

The same thing happens now. Tae kwon do guy moves in and you get in a price war. May not be a direct challenge or end in a fight but still along the same lines.

I will send you a pm about a personal experience.

So once again I say that challenges over the net to people that you have never met are childish.

Have a nice day

[sayloc]

One last thing to add.

With over 100,000 people getting killed by a huge wave, husbands seeing thier wives die, parents watching thier small children being washed out to sea, dont you think this type of thing (challenges, I'm better than you...ect..) is very foolish.

We should thank God we have our lives and try to help others in need, not try to beat a stranger to death.

Spend your energy on something good.

[sayloc]

shanghai

Tidal wave and war. Yeah, exactly the same thing:confused:

How were my comments throwaway? They are about fighting.

I told you you could join the other side, since that sounds like who you support. I dont care who people that want to prove themselves fight.

If the challengers want to prove they are tough guys and are to afraid to go to war or even serve in a military force they could go to south asia and face that death and destruction. It could be as difficult as war.

[sayloc]

Wolfen

two people can not agree exacly on anything. I was speaking in general.

I did not mean to speak for you.

[Tainan Mantis]

Sayloc,
Nice philosophy.
The spirit of MA we cultivate has been applied to fund raising here in Tainan in my pizzaria to help the Tsunami victims.
I am happy to report that many people were very happy to give large sums of $$.
This seems like a good use of the moral and spiritual aspect of our training.

Funny you mention about people taking my spot under the big tree in the park.
This has happened very many times. I don't even think that people knew it was "my" place.

What do I do?
I speak nicely and make a new friend.

About every park challenge, if you can call it that, is polite.
That doesn't mean that the hitting is sissified, but there is a cultivation of wude principal in MA schols that demand respect among practitioners.

Meanest challenge was from a mama in her 50's.
It was issued in a temple as an exchange of knowledge.
Sadly, I lost that challenge, and was beaten fair and square.

But, I learned a lot from her skill and often hope to meet again for a rematch.

Daohong,
email received.

[18elders]

men don't beat drums before they hunt tigers.

Actually they do, they ride ontop of elephants, beat drums and make alot of noise to flush them out and shoot them on the run.

kind of like the fox hunt with the dogs.

[sayloc]

18

Yes, you are right. When people hunt tigers in a group they do that. If you to go into a jungle alone for a hunt it would be a different technique. If you let the tiger know where you are it will evade you or kill you. If you are hunting alone you have to use an "ambush" approach. Even hunting deer. You can drive them in a group or if you are alone yor have to play a waiting game. You have never hunted, have you? :D

For a challenge you usually dont take a group of guys to attack just one person. That would be alot easier.

Wolfen

The scenerio you described with the kung fu guys in the park with thier "spot" is no differnet than what happens in the USA with crack dealers and pimps. Try to take a dealer or pimps corner and see what happens.

I like to think that martial artists have a little more control.

I dont know who you train with in taiwan but this tainan guy seems like a good leader and martial artist, maybe you see about training with him.


Tainan

Thanks for sharing your experiences. Sounds like you have a good time and do a great job sharing your art.

[sayloc]

Wolfen

I agree with your kung fu sister

Most people dont get my goat, it is a fast little sucker:)

[sayloc]

Wolfen

Now I understand what you are saying.


Good points.


You are right I dont live there and it is harder for me to understand and even harder for you to explain a culture with a few lines over the net.


Have a good day or evening which ever pertains to you:)

[-N-]

Funny you mention about people taking my spot under the big tree in the park.
This has happened very many times. I don't even think that people knew it was "my" place.

What do I do?
I speak nicely and make a new friend.
Yep, same has happened for me. A Tai Chi class that got displaced showed up in my spot. I had been using that part of the park for maybe 5 years by then. I talked to the teacher, saying "I think we will need to share this space." He moved his class to an adjacent area. Our two groups get along fine :)

I had some little kids in the class. I found out afterwards that they thought there was going to be a big showdown to fight for the space. I had a good laugh over that ;)

N.

[HouZiPiGu]

Egad!
For a second i thought i had logged onto "Al Jazerra" website!
That was not sympathy but an expression of political hatred. - WOLFEN

Hop on the logical-thought train and ride it all the way to the end, will ya? Maybe you shouldn't have dropped out of high school.

[BeiTangLang]

Please get back to it, or this one closes too.

[sayloc]

Shanghai

You sound like an nice boy and I understand that you are a caring loving soul.

My posts are about personal challenges.

I brought up the war because that would be the ultimate personal challenge for yourself. This is my opinion of course.

I told you fight for either side. I dont care which side. it would be a challenge.

I feel challenges are somewhat childish. There are enough big problems in life.

I feel a better personal challenge to yourself would be and go help people in south asia. That would be much more difficult a task than beating or being beaten. (meaning "you" in general not you in particular kid)

To close, most people will not challenge someone that they think can beat them.

If you want a challege go up to the biggest wwf guy you can find and fight him.

Thats all I have to say about that.

I agree bei, about time to lock this one down.

Some of these guys should be posting on the political board, the main kung fu forum :)

[devout]

Practice these arts because you love them, or because you gain from the experience.
If you look for bloodshed, you can find it almost anywhere, and there are much quicker avenues to it that don’t require so much of your free time.
I don’t post very often, primarily because I have little to say, but I will say this (trying not to err on the improper side)…
Think carefully about the discussion on matters of war, or you may find yourself circling back on yourself.
Though you may decry the horrors of war and its corresponding faceless technological components (as an aside it is misleading to connote that phosphorous is a “chemical weapon” its primary function is its usage as “tracer” rounds to zero in vehicle mounted or squad based automatic weaponry, thermite is a much more effective incendiary ) think what we hold in our hand every time we pick up those long curved Chinese blades. That is old military tech. Who are we to also assume got the bad end of horse mounted heavy pole arms?
My childhood best friend just returned from Iraq, and though he is proud of his service (he served as a scout/sniper so to describe his actions as being faceless or impersonal would be quite wrong) his life will never be the same. Take a good look at my sig, because I think a lot can be learned from that silly mel gibson film.
Plus “Master” was one of the little people in Tod Browning’s 1928 classic “Freaks”

In the end I will say, that we may talk a long talk here, but -to paraphrase my father- “those that do, don’t talk about it”.
selah

[yu shan]

devout

Always good to read your posts. Military Men in my family did not speek about war. I always learned their stories thru the wives, my Aunts! What Heros my Uncles were! My life is so simple... compared!

[BeiTangLang]

Originally posted by shanghai_kid

However, generally speaking I cannot make any sense of your post so i'm not sure how to reply.

You know,..if you're not sure,...why bother??

Why did all the Pel students (& pel himself) remove their posts? Just to start up the same old negativism all over again?? Do you ever have anything positive to say about anything or anyone??

[devout]

Ye Gods…

Truce please, I have no intention of making enemies real or imagined anywhere, and I am sorry to ruffle your feathers. My apologies indeed. In my opinion, and copious past experience, pontification is the hallmark of online forums, and was just following suit. Again, my bad.

I do truly enjoy the practice of Chinese Martial arts, and have my own difficulties in separating it at times from a pragmatic and tactical format, as I have spent some time developing this skill set. Of course that makes me no different than scores of other Americans. I guess on one level my post was an effort to “fake it before I make it” in an attempt to essay someone into stepping away from the hostile. Again my mistake.

On a personal level, I do not blame you whatsoever for failing to grasp the content of my message, as I am not a native English speaker. I am from 51 Peagasi B ( and extra-solar planet orbiting 51 Pegasi in the constellation Pegasus) and our entire language is devised of a combination of circumlocution, obfuscation, nay saying, logical fallacies, and empty rhetoric.

But fear not Earthlings, I will soon make available full sentence diagrams of all my former posts with optional logic proofreading functions based on my newly patented “object oriented” logic format. This allows the user to parse through different “types” and “classes” of apologetics, and reuse the code in their own applications. It will be available on my website soon.

And as an aside to your aside, we are both wrong about MMBT, the film actually belonged to Angry Anderson, who portrayed Iron Bar with such vim and honesty, that all men could grow from his shining example.

Selah

[HouZiPiGu]

"I am from 51 Peagasi B ( and extra-solar planet orbiting 51 Pegasi in the constellation Pegasus) and our entire language is devised of a combination of circumlocution, obfuscation, nay saying, logical fallacies, and empty rhetoric." - DEVOUT



That must be the same planet Reverend Jesse Jackson is from.

[BeiTangLang]

Originally posted by HouZiPiGu
"I am from 51 Peagasi B ( and extra-solar planet orbiting 51 Pegasi in the constellation Pegasus) and our entire language is devised of a combination of circumlocution, obfuscation, nay saying, logical fallacies, and empty rhetoric." - DEVOUT



That must be the same planet Reverend Jesse Jackson is from.



ROFLMAO!!!!!

Seriously though,...back on topic (please!)

[Mi Hou Tao]

Im a "Pel" student,
and I didnt delete my posts(too few to count)
and i can be positive:
..Thanks for the amusement!..

:D

[devout]

ugh... you win... I'll go home now

[cerebus]

Woofin's just a lonely troll craving attention. Just say something that hurts his feelings and he'll put you on his "ignore" list so that he can't read your posts. Then you can write whatever you like in peace. :p :p

[mantisben]

Originally posted by HeartbreakRidge
...
what makes a good mantis practioner?
What makes a good Martial Artist, in my opinion, is humility, humbleness, respect, diligence, and focus. Not that they can fight good.

What makes a good Mantis Practicioner, or in other words, what makes a Mantis Practicioner good? Speed, Accuracy, Timing, Speed, Mobility, Strength, and Speed.

[HouZiPiGu]

What makes a good Martial Artist, in my opinion, is humility, humbleness, respect, diligence, and focus. Not that they can fight good. - MANTISBEN

Main Entry: mar·tial
Pronunciation: 'mär-sh&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin martialis of Mars, from Mart-, Mars
1 : of, relating to, or suited for war or a warrior
2 : relating to an army or to military life
3 : experienced in or inclined to war : WARLIKE - MERRIAM WEBSTER

[HouZiPiGu]

Of course, there are many benefits to ongoing and dedicated pursuit of perfection through the practice of any art. Spiritual development, humility, humbleness, respect, diligence, and focus can be nurtured through golf or ballet just as well as through kung fu. Martial arts don't have a monopoly on these. You are welcome to emphasize these in your own training, though if you don't think the martial application aspect should be at the forefront, you're really missing the point. But then, missing the point is what you seem to do best.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by HouZiPiGu

...
1 : of, relating to, or suited for war or a warrior
2 : relating to an army or to military life
3 : experienced in or inclined to war : WARLIKE - MERRIAM WEBSTER

Not the way I use it... I started out this way, though. But then it became much more...

[mantisben]

Of course, there are many benefits to ongoing and dedicated pursuit of perfection through the practice of any art. Spiritual development, humility, humbleness, respect, diligence, and focus can be nurtured through golf or ballet just as well as through kung fu.[b]
I can't afford to play Golf. Besides, there is no real physical development in golf. I tried Ballet, but could never get used to the outfits...

[b]You are welcome to emphasize these in your own training, though if you don't think the martial application aspect should be at the forefront, you're really missing the point. But then, missing the point is what you seem to do best.

I miss the point in a couple of areas in my life, and I'm sure I've missed more than a few "points" in Martial Arts.

Evidently, my opinion about "what makes a good Martial Artist" is not up to par with your understanding of what makes a good Martial Artist. I'm comfortable, and at peace, with my opinion, and I hope it hasn't piqued any bad feelings in you.

[HeartbreakRidge]

"Spiritual development, humility, humbleness, respect, diligence, and focus can be nurtured through golf or ballet just as well as through kung fu. Martial arts don't have a monopoly on these."

An excellent point, we must remember that Kung Fu does not mean martial art or wushu, and that even a scholar can show Kung Fu through unerring determination, which brings me to what i believe a good mantis practioner is, someone who can take what he has taught, and keep it with him throughout life, on the street, in his home and at the work place, but im not talking about technique and self defence, but about principle. Seems appropriate here to place the story that i read, i cannot remember where, about a monk and an abbot i think, this monk was in meditation where he stayed awake all night and the abbot came and slept down beside him, the following morning, when the student asked how the abbot had slept, to which the abbot replied not very well, as two fleas on the monks robe were fighting, one was injured and howled in pain all night, the monk, critical of this, looked on the floor by where he was meditating and found a dead flea with a broken leg, i doubt the story is true, but it gets a point across, anyone can practice the ideals that mantis teaches us in the kwoon when we put our mind on it, but can we maintain them without concious thought, this is true kung fu, and much more impressive than the most acrobatic move or film stunt.

[Mi Hou Tao]

For more Info and an accurate definition, please refer to the:
"Wolfen dictionary of The Chinese mind" ,
availiable at all good leading kung fu forums:D

But i wouldnt take my word for it because:
"Shanghai minds are under a central authority"

But we can trust Wolfen, because:
"Believe me, i know a lot more, a lot more than most of the other Westerners.
Would you like to hear it?"

Hmmm..In an answer,... No.

[BeiTangLang]

HeartbreakRidge
Junior Member

Registered: Dec 2004
Location:
Posts: 3
"Spiritual development, humility, humbleness, respect, diligence, and focus can be nurtured through golf or ballet just as well as through kung fu. Martial arts don't have a monopoly on these."

An excellent point, we must remember that Kung Fu does not mean martial art or wushu, and that even a scholar can show Kung Fu through unerring determination, which brings me to what i believe a good mantis practioner is, someone who can take what he has taught, and keep it with him throughout life, on the street, in his home and at the work place, but im not talking about technique and self defence, but about principle. Seems appropriate here to place the story that i read, i cannot remember where, about a monk and an abbot i think, this monk was in meditation where he stayed awake all night and the abbot came and slept down beside him, the following morning, when the student asked how the abbot had slept, to which the abbot replied not very well, as two fleas on the monks robe were fighting, one was injured and howled in pain all night, the monk, critical of this, looked on the floor by where he was meditating and found a dead flea with a broken leg, i doubt the story is true, but it gets a point across, anyone can practice the ideals that mantis teaches us in the kwoon when we put our mind on it, but can we maintain them without concious thought, this is true kung fu, and much more impressive than the most acrobatic move or film stunt.


__________________
Do not weep; do not wax indignant, understand.

[mantis108]

- Don't be just a copy machine (no contribution to the CMA world).
- Don't look at CMA just from PM point of view (need global CMA view).
- Integrate some Fajin method (like LH PM or Baiji PM did),
- Integrate some throwing method (add leg moves).

No offense, these suggestions sounded like Mantis are weak in these areas?

BTW, what about:

-8 Stances 12 Characters
-8 hard 12 soft
-8 strikes and 8 forbiden strikes

and such tenets of Mantis, are they obsolete as well? Are they handed down wrong as well? Is it out with the old and in with the new?

I just think that it's not just as simple as incooperating materials at will. A tiger tank won't become a B-52 bomber just by adding a jet engine and wings.

Again I am not trying to pick bones with the suggestions but the problem goes a lot deeper than we would think. We might end up with JKD Mantis if we are not careful. BTW, there's nothing wrong with that if JKD and Mantis are both your cup of tea. But most come to mantis for TCMA and they should receive proper Mantis instructions frist.


Mantis108

[Ming Yue]

...so i put this question forward to the masses, what makes a good mantis practioner?

Practice, a balanced respect for preservation and innovation, the ability to conceptualize and analyze without losing the essence, and a certain degree of fearlessness.

[mantisben]

...
The finish strategy (how to kill) is a important part of the CMA training but hidden in those words (8 forbiden strikes). Instead one should work on those "8 forbiden strikes" and make it effective. You don't need to train in 8 strikes but you definitely need to train in 8 forbiden strikes.

Just a reminder to anyone reading this post:

Be careful when/if executing the 8 Forbidden Strikes (or 8 places not to hit, to avoid causing death). You don't want to spend years and years in prison having to practice PM in a prison yard. Also, trying to do a PM form in an 8'x6' cell-block requires alot of adjusting...

It is much more fun to practice PM in a park, or in a Kung-Fu school, or in a gym.

I don't know how the rules apply for killing someone in hand-to-hand combat in other countries, only the USA.

[Three Harmonies]

Everyone should keep in mind that there is no Baji Tanglang style, it is Su Yu Changs organizations name! The Wutan Mantis is very influenced by Baji for sure, but there is no Baji-Tanglang system.
Cheers
Jake :D

[jwwmantis]

[QUOTE=. You don't need to train in 8 strikes but you definitely need to train in 8 forbiden strikes.

Why would you not train the 8 strikes? The 8 strikes can still take out an opponent, end a fight, etc. They are part of the system. They are in all of the forms, training, etc. You also had a comment about PM being from Long Fist? This is not exactly true. Maybe do some reading up on Sifu Jon Funks web page, since I know he has the history listed.