The History of Christian Terror [Archive]

Newb

01-03-2005, 12:41 PM

I used to post on 'protestwarrior' all the time under the user: "LaRouchie". I got so sick of em that I just left eventually.

The history of religious terror stems back to the rulers of the Empire. Wether it is the Roman, Venetian, British, or the new American Empire, they use religion as a great way to control the masses. The British Monarchy used to claim (some still do) that they are direct descendants of Jesus Christ. Their story is that christ escaped with Mary, had children in spain, and they settled in Britain and are now the Royal House of Windsor. The reason such lies had to be told was simple. Living as a serf, you work all your life for the lord. The Lords have to make you believe that they are from God and higher than you so you must work for them.

The core teachings of Jesus Christ are nothing like the inquisition or todays fascist (yes, I do mean fascist) Christain Fundamentalist. Jesus Christs teachings were as he said "you can be like me, and better". That all people can become saintlike, or even better than Christ. Christ came in as a figure around a group of 'uppity' Jews who wanted to be seperate from the degenerate Roman Empire. He was called the 'King of Jews', and was leading people towards this goal. It was King Tiberius who had Christ killed as a means of shutting up the Jews. In typical empirical fashion, they blamed the Jews instead. The book of Revelations was written during the Roman Empire and was probably highly changed and censored. Those people didn't believe that Christ will come back, kill everyone who isn't a christain, and physically transport everyone who is a Christain to heaven. The idea was that if we continue down our degenerate path, we will surely suffer a horrible fate, that like Soddom and Ghammorah.

The point is simple. Islam, Christainity, and Judiasm are all very tolerant and beautifull religions. It's when a group of people, usually oligarchs who want to consolate their power that come in and brainwash the population to a barbaric and almost satanic mindset. Have you spoken to a hardcore chirstain fundy? They seem to warship the devil and call it God. This is done on purpose to distroy nations. One of the best ways to control people is to have them fight in religious warfare, which is the worst kind of warfare.

Newb

01-03-2005, 12:42 PM

Originally posted by CaptinPickAxe
Hey, Jun-Erh!
Do you practice anything but political drivvle-fu?

I'm not a Demo...I'm not a Repub. I'm the guy who will inherit the earth when you dumb asses kill eachother off. I'm just sitting back with a tub of extra buttery popcorn, laughing at the stupidity.

YOU ARE EXACTLY THE SAME!!!

Greedy and Obtuse...

Good sir, your post seems to suggest that you enjoy laughing at the masses. However, if you were to look behind and around you, you would see that they will soon engulf you and you too, will either have to either submit or fight.

Vash

01-03-2005, 12:43 PM

Originally posted by jun_erh
so you guys are so good at forms that it was be just too brutal for your to fight somebody? haha that's like circa 5 years ago kfm ****.

To indulge you . . .

I have no need to fight in the arena you suggest as there will be nothing positive gained from such an experience. There are groups, groups who've already established a hard-line view of the world, and they are in no mood to change that belief system. They are, however, motivated to change the belief system of another group with the same modus operandi. These are not the type of people who listen to another's views, evaluate the logical, moral, and intellectual value thereof, and then decide whether they fit in with the group paradigm. They simply wait for the other person to stop spouting utter nonsense so they can have the opportunity to not only expose the others ignorance and inferiority, but their own knowledge and superiority.

I have no need to interact with these people. Nothing is gained, only lost.

*Continues ****ing in jun_erh's face*

Newb

01-03-2005, 12:51 PM

Originally posted by Vash
To indulge you . . .

I have no need to fight in the arena you suggest as there will be nothing positive gained from such an experience. There are groups, groups whove already established a hard-line view of the world, and they are in no mood to change that belief system. They are, however, motivated to change the belief system of another group with the same modus operandi. These are not the type of people who listen to another's views, evaluate the logical, moral, and intellectual value thereof, and then decide whether they fit in with the group paradigm. They simply wait for the other person to stop spouting utter nonsense so they can have the opportunity to not only expose the others ignorance and inferiority, but their own knowledge and superiority.

I have no need to interact with these people. Nothing is gained, only lost.

*Continues ****ing in jun_erh's face*

I spent a long time talking and trying to organize fundies. A big problem we fall into, is that we think we can change people based on a Socratic dialogue. Some people simply will not be changed with a socratic dialogue.

What can chagne them is the question. In the 1920s, there was a *huge* wave of Christain Fundamentalism. The same kind of crap you hear today. What killed the movement was the sudden financial crash. They realized that Christ wasn't going gto move them to heaven so they don't have to pay next months rent, and kill everyone. When they got hungry, they realized that their belief system was flawed, and it died.

Here is where some people disagree, because it hits too close to home. We are in this type of financial system that is set to blow out right now. With this financial blowout, if we can stop Bush from blowing up 1/3 of the world, we can end this fundamentalism if we provide adequate leadership like FDR did. That is the real name of the game. I wont get much into the blow out right here, I already had a thread on it, but if u want to know mroe about it, feel free to ask.

Vash

01-03-2005, 12:59 PM

Bah. Being I'm a Southerner, all else fails, I can live in the woods with a Bowie knife and a loin cloth.

With occassional excursions into civilization to score some protein powder and some Tribex.

Newb

01-03-2005, 01:53 PM

Originally posted by Vash
Bah. Being I'm a Southerner, all else fails, I can live in the woods with a Bowie knife and a loin cloth.

With occassional excursions into civilization to score some protein powder and some Tribex. .

Heh, can ur children, wife, friends, and people you depend on do that too?

Vash

01-03-2005, 02:00 PM

No kids, no wife. My family, friends all are southerners, if not by birth than by contamination. They can last.

I'll fight if I have to, but I'm not going out of my way to make my presence known on some shove-my-head-up-my-own-ass message board.

Newb

01-03-2005, 02:27 PM

Originally posted by Vash
No kids, no wife. My family, friends all are southerners, if not by birth than by contamination. They can last.

I'll fight if I have to, but I'm not going out of my way to make my presence known on some shove-my-head-up-my-own-ass message board.

But wouldn't you rather fight before this happened to stop or minimize it, rather then dealing with the tragedy that would happen based on our own inaction?

CaptinPickAxe

01-03-2005, 03:00 PM

Excuse me for not beliving that "The Revolution is Coming!!!"

I can fly under the radar untill next election, and throw my vote away again. The only real concern I have is that I'm gonna fly under the radar without social security. Bah, I've been told since the day I was born that I wouldn't have it.

Why must I step into conflict when I can so easily avoid it?
There is obviously others that think like me, and have absolutely no problem butting heads for a living.

So I ask you:
Why should I fight for rights when my views don't count?
Why should I fight to vote when voting doesn't matter?
Why should I fight the rising tide, when the water is nice?

We need change around here. Maybe the Tsunami should of hit here, so it could wash all the bullsht away...

Newb

01-03-2005, 03:07 PM

Well let's start with the bare basics first. Do you feel morally obligated to not just admit, but put energy fourth to change a system that the children who made all of the clothes your wearing makes less than $2 a day are probably dead by now. Do keep in mound our own elected Governments have a official policy of global depopulation through poverty and disease. Mostly as a way of stealing natural resources, and making the citizens of that country their virtual slaves. Before we move on the question of responsibilities of being a citizen of this nation are, let's look at what we view the responsibilities of basic human beings are.

CaptinPickAxe

01-03-2005, 03:35 PM

I'm sorry...

You're post just isn't important enought to read. Besides, it's a little wordy for my taste.

Revise it, edit it, trim it, and I might read it.

Newb

01-03-2005, 04:00 PM

Originally posted by CaptinPickAxe
I'm sorry...

You're post just isn't important enought to read. Besides, it's a little wordy for my taste.

Revise it, edit it, trim it, and I might read it.

I understand some people tend to run away or put up walls when confronted something that they are not psychologically ready to contemplate. Your very own reply shows a psychological distress. We are talking about one of the most important topics throughout history. Instead of saying 'i disagree on this or that', you state 'it's not important enough to read' lol. That's rich.

CaptinPickAxe

01-03-2005, 06:43 PM

Yeah, I know... I'm an ******* sometimes...

like today...I really didn't feel like getting into the endless cycle of political bickering....so I shut you out. No emotional distress here, pal. Just pure, unadultrated lazyness...

Now that is truely rich...

CaptinPickAxe

01-03-2005, 06:44 PM

Besides, I have more fun picking food out of my teeth than argueing with Repubs about politics.

FuXnDajenariht

01-04-2005, 06:45 AM

huh? what are we going on about? are u talking about world war 3 or sum kinda national war? if the united states collapses the world will survive. trust me. ;)

Kristoffer

01-04-2005, 09:59 AM

We trust you ****ing degenerate. Oh and Def Jam fight for NY was good. thx for the tip on that in some other thread.

jun_erh

01-04-2005, 10:07 AM

I wasn'yt trying to recruit anyone to that specific board. I thought the Indian guy totally won. My point is those guys can explain their beliefs "show their work" a la 9th grade math class whereas in Europe in seems to be acceptable to just assume certain things are right and certain things are wrong and you just accept it on faith. That's a recipe for disaster.

jun_erh

01-04-2005, 12:21 PM

hahaha larouchie. You're a communist? When your kung fu gets really good, you realize you're going to have yourself killed. How's the gulag? What did Stalin kill lke 20 million? oh well.

best screename ever (http://forum.protestwarrior.com/viewtopic.php?t=55909&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0)

Newb

01-04-2005, 01:38 PM

Originally posted by jun_erh
hahaha larouchie. You're a communist? When your kung fu gets really good, you realize you're going to have yourself killed. How's the gulag? What did Stalin kill lke 20 million? oh well.

best screename ever (http://forum.protestwarrior.com/viewtopic.php?t=55909&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0)

Lyndon LaRouche has written extensivly on how communism will not work. The slander that LaRouche is a communist was sent out by many financial elite who didn't want anyone messing with their system of looting the 3rd world of its natural resources, and using the population as virtual slave labor while keeping the population of the USA dumbed down and high off entertainment and so fourth. To illustrate my point I present to you:
LaRouche Webcast on Jan. 5
To Address Deadly Crisis
in International Relations
http://www.larouchepac.com/pages/press_releases_files/2004/041221_webcast_ann.htm

The U.S. Physical Economy:
Studies Commissioned by Lyndon LaRouche

http://www.larouchepac.com/pages/economy_files/economic_especial_index.htm

FuXnDajenariht

01-05-2005, 04:27 AM

you sound anarchist ta me but you actually know what your talking about. :D

usually its just people screaming destroy the gove'ment blahblahblah....

jun_erh

01-06-2005, 11:11 AM

newb- my mistake. why did I think he was a communist. I culd really do without his little Yassir arafat tribute though.

Newb

01-06-2005, 01:02 PM

Originally posted by jun_erh
newb- my mistake. why did I think he was a communist. I culd really do without his little Yassir arafat tribute though.

Yassar Arafat and Yitzhak Rabin I hold in a similar light. They were both men with a voilent past in a violent region during a violent time and war. However, when the oppertunity came, they both realized that the only way to live is to have peace. Yitzhak Rabin worked with and knew the 'crazies' in the Israeli Government and Defence Force, and warned their methods would lead to the distruction of Israel; much like Eisenhowers "Millitary Industrial Complex" speech. Yassar Arafat had to sometimes fight, and sometimes work with Arial Sharons backed Hamas movement, as well as others. However, he too shook hands with Yitzhak Rabin and stuck to Oslo. It was Benjamin Netenyahou that distroyed Oslo, and one of the religious nuts of the right wing in Israel that killed Rabin. Yitzhak Rabin and Yassar Arafat both were able to prove that they can change for the better of their and each others people. This is the way to end religious warfare, as you can see in the Treaty of Westphalia. I think both deserve a bit of respect.

jun_erh

01-08-2005, 10:28 AM

I disagree entirely. I agree with Bill Clinton and Dennis Ross. The whole mess is arafats fualt and he showed time and time again that he was a coward. Israel is the democracy and therefore they have my support

Newb

01-11-2005, 10:46 AM

Originally posted by jun_erh
I disagree entirely. I agree with Bill Clinton and Dennis Ross. The whole mess is arafats fualt and he showed time and time again that he was a coward. Israel is the democracy and therefore they have my support

The Democratic society of Athens democratically voted to kill Socrates. A KKK Lynch Mob is a Democracy, it's popular opinion (or in Shakespears Julius Ceaser, the poison known as Vox Populi) it doesn't mean the actions they take is right. Also, I'm not sure if Bill Clinton retracted his statements, but he was under preassure and didn't make the right choice. How is it Arafats fault? Yassar Arafat agreed to OSLO and didn't back off. It was the ring wing of Israel that openly killed that peace agreement. Rabin said they would discuss Jerusalem in a few years after they work together, and Arafat agreed. Barak on the other hand give Arafat a very teeny tiny bit of Jerusalem so they could call it their capitol, but demanded control over the 3rd holiest site in all of Islam and would not let go. It was unreasonable and Arafat was right. There are over a billion muslims in the world, and Arafat could not simply give away their 3rd holiest temple, it belonged to all of Islam.

Like I repeat, Imagine if Arafat demanded control over the Wailing Wall. That would be laughable. Barak was out of line and ruined the process by not even willing to talk about Jerusalem 5 years later like Rabin did; he demanded control over one of the holiest Islamic sites and did not let go. Although I love Bill Clinton, he made several very bad mistakes and this was one of them.

red5angel

01-11-2005, 03:48 PM

The indian guy pretty much owns. I usually get tired of these things after a few pages, but this time I read the whole thing. "The Rev" is one of the most annoying people ever.

I guess owns has some other meaning then what I think it is, because the indian guy, the one who started the thread doesn't exaclty own anything. I'm not a christian nor religious in anyway but anyone with half a mind could see that he has taken atrocities committed by human beings under the guise of religion, and attributed it to the religion itself. He's essentially isolated cases of brutalism committed by a group of people (mind you, this "group" of people is spread out over a few thousand years and more then a few national borders), and taken it out of it's context. The simple fact is - pagans, muslims, christians, and many others under the unbrella of religion, have committed crimes against the people around them. This in no way vindicates anything anyone is doing in any other religion or at any other time.

I understand some people tend to run away or put up walls when confronted something that they are not psychologically ready to contemplate.

I understand some people tend to surround themselves in the facts they chose to recognize as relevant to their cause and isolate themselves from the whole truth. they are not psychologically capable of contemplating. their cause has burned any ability to think freely from their brain.

Newb

01-11-2005, 03:53 PM

Originally posted by red5angel

I understand some people tend to surround themselves in the facts they chose to recognize as relevant to their cause and isolate themselves from the whole truth. they are not psychologically capable of contemplating. their cause has burned any ability to think freely from their brain.

You repeatedly make such baseless claims, and although you have all of my posts at your fingers, you have not tried to give me even 1 example.

Newb

01-11-2005, 03:59 PM

Originally posted by red5angel
II understand some people tend to surround themselves in the facts they chose to recognize as relevant to their cause and isolate themselves from the whole truth. they are not psychologically capable of contemplating. their cause has burned any ability to think freely from their brain.

Oh and 1 more question. Where are the Weapons of Mass Distruction? If what you say is true and I am not psychologically capable of contemplating the truth, can you please tell me where they are? Thanks.

red5angel

01-11-2005, 04:01 PM

sometimes you have to read between the lines Newb, an ability your crusade has taken away from you. Your so focused on trying to make a point - one that's as wrong as any other extremists view - that you can't get it figured out for yourself and need it laid out for you. We've had your kind on this forum before and everything you say has been said in one fashion or another. You have yet to say anything new, or to say much of anything that really makes any sense in the real world. Your world is so skewed and filled with impotent anger that I don't even know why you bother. You're not here to learn anything, you're just up on your pulpit trying to take the teachings to the people.

LOL@WMD - my guess is you probably think it was all about oil or a religious war ;)

Newb

01-11-2005, 04:11 PM

Originally posted by red5angel
sometimes you have to read between the lines Newb, an ability your crusade has taken away from you. Your so focused on trying to make a point - one that's as wrong as any other extremists view - that you can't get it figured out for yourself and need it laid out for you. We've had your kind on this forum before and everything you say has been said in one fashion or another. You have yet to say anything new, or to say much of anything that really makes any sense in the real world. Your world is so skewed and filled with impotent anger that I don't even know why you bother. You're not here to learn anything, you're just up on your pulpit trying to take the teachings to the people.

LOL@WMD - my guess is you probably think it was all about oil or a religious war ;)

You have repeatedly made claims of me being paraniod and so fourth, yet you back the Iraq war with baseless weapons of mass distruction. That's ironic. I ask you again: Show me an example. You Have NOT even bothered to try to show me 1 example, and keep repeating your old slanders. So I repeat for the next time you post the same insult:

Show me an example. Show me an example. Show me an example. Show me an example. Show me an example. Show me an example. Show me an example. Show me an example. Show me an example. Show me an example. Show me an example. Show me an example. Show me an example. Show me an example. Show me an example. Show me an example. Show me an example. Show me an example. Show me an example. Show me an example. Show me an example. Show me an example. Show me an example. Show me an example. Show me an example. Show me an example. Show me an example. Show me an example. Show me an example. Show me an example. Show me an example. Show me an example.

red5angel

01-11-2005, 04:14 PM

yet you back the Iraq war with baseless weapons of mass distruction

accuse me of assumptions based on your assumptions? tisk tisk

Newb

01-11-2005, 05:39 PM

Originally posted by Newb

Originally posted by red5angel
accuse me of assumptions based on your assumptions? tisk tisk

I really am not afraid to say that I make no assumption. After several conversations with you, I can figure out how you feel about things. For example:

All I need to hear is that the Iraqis have been executing POW's and as far as I am concerned we can glass the whole fukking country.

"Glassing a country" is when you nuke a country that has lots of sand. The sand turns to a green glass from the heat of the nuclear bomb. Iraq, a country that has never attacked the USA, that had no weapons of mass distruction, that lived under murderous economic sanctions and provided us the cheapest oil we got, is to be nuked by Red5Angel. Quite disturbing, even if you were 'just mad'.

It's also quite ironic that the real scandal is the US torture and executing POWs scandal. There really are tons for me to choose from, so are you sure you really want to go there?

red5angel

01-12-2005, 08:48 AM

I really am not afraid to say that I make no assumption.

you really are just crazy. But to help you out:

Main Entry: as·sump·tion
Pronunciation: &-'s&m(p)-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin assumption-, assumptio taking up, from Latin assumere
1 a : the taking up of a person into heaven b capitalized : August 15 observed in commemoration of the Assumption of the Virgin Mary
2 : a taking to or upon oneself <the assumption of a new position>
3 : the act of laying claim to or taking possession of something <the assumption of power>
4 : ARROGANCE, PRETENSION
5 a : an assuming that something is true b : a fact or statement (as a proposition, axiom, postulate, or notion) taken for granted

Important here or 4&5. 4 for obvious reasons, 5 because you apparently aren't quite sure what Assumption really means. I see some gross assumptions on your part, not just on the characters of those you are discussing with (veiled insults implied to those people because you "understand" how they really feel) but on just about every level. While you spit out "facts" to back up your claims, you back those up with comments indicating that you cannot be possibly wrong and it is beyond a doubt that you ever would be. It's pathetic, it's not discussion, it's preaching. I recommend you stop right now, go back to intermingling with humanity and learn how to interact with the rest of us please.

ATTN: Newb

Please stop just assuming things and being so negative!

Newb

01-12-2005, 09:16 AM

Originally posted by red5angel
you really are just crazy. But to help you out:

Main Entry: as·sump·tion
Pronunciation: &-'s&m(p)-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin assumption-, assumptio taking up, from Latin assumere
1 a : the taking up of a person into heaven b capitalized : August 15 observed in commemoration of the Assumption of the Virgin Mary
2 : a taking to or upon oneself <the assumption of a new position>
3 : the act of laying claim to or taking possession of something <the assumption of power>
4 : ARROGANCE, PRETENSION
5 a : an assuming that something is true b : a fact or statement (as a proposition, axiom, postulate, or notion) taken for granted

Important here or 4&5. 4 for obvious reasons, 5 because you apparently aren't quite sure what Assumption really means. I see some gross assumptions on your part, not just on the characters of those you are discussing with (veiled insults implied to those people because you "understand" how they really feel) but on just about every level. While you spit out "facts" to back up your claims, you back those up with comments indicating that you cannot be possibly wrong and it is beyond a doubt that you ever would be. It's pathetic, it's not discussion, it's preaching. I recommend you stop right now, go back to intermingling with humanity and learn how to interact with the rest of us please.

ATTN: Newb

You have stated that you want to nuke all of Iraq if they kill 1 POW (which we've beaten more to death), yet I'm the crazy one. I have not made an assumption, I have made a hypothesis. So far, you are proving my hypothesis correct 'kill em all and let God sort em out' boy.

Newb

01-12-2005, 09:36 AM

Originally posted by Newb
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
yet you back the Iraq war with baseless weapons of mass distruction
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by red5angel
accuse me of assumptions based on your assumptions? tisk tisk

You went out of your way to say I was only 'assuming' that you backed the war on Iraq, and used that as a basis of personal attacks such as i'm 'crazy and delusional'. I stated since I talked to you, I have understood in some ways how you think, and I was right. Looking on old threads, I can see you were simply either like **** Cheney:
1.) Lying through your teeth as you tried to deny that you supported the war on Iraq, that I'm only 'assuming' things.

2.) Are so senile that you can't remember what you did or said just months or a year ago.

In the thread "Do You Agree with the "War on Iraq""
http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20352

you quoted "What reasons do I agree with? I see it being played two ways. We are going because Saddam is a threat to peace, in our country and in the middle east. We have known this for years. there are other reasons but I believe that is the biggest.

However, it is being played alot differently through the media anyway, like because he is defying the UN we have to do something, and I don't like that spin. I don't think it has a whole lot to do with the UN sanctions at all."

Time to realize YOU are the paraniod delusional one. We were more likely to be invaded from the moon than Saddam Hussein. Why did millions of people know that there were no weapons of mass distruction, yet here you think they are a threat to the USA?

What do you say now? You as a citizen are responsible for your decisions. Your support for the war therefore needs to be re-evaluated. Hundreds of thousands of civilians have already died, due to the the decisions made by your support. We have spent hundreds of billions dollars that could have been used to work with nations to develop instead. Are you even sorry for the decisions you made yet? Are you sorry that Bush kicked out the UN for not finding weapons of mass distruction? Are you sorry that Bremer disbanded the Iraqi army thus putting over 200,000 trained ****ed off military men on the street?

Do you support Donald Rumsfeld and Richard Pearle when they stated we only need 25,000-50,000 troops to win the war in Iraq and occupy the nation? Even Tommy Franks, Gen. Shensheki, Ret. Gen. Anthony Hoar (CENTCOM) and Ret. Gen. Anthony Zinni (CENTCOM) warned of the need of tons of more troops required, yet this administration did not listen. Do you still support them? If so, why?

Do you still support **** Cheney when he kept repeated the discredited "Yellow Cake" story that Iraq was buying tons of Uranium Oxide from Niger? He was told by his own envoy that he sent there that this was a hoax, and by Muhommad El Baradei; yet he repeated the same discredited lie to the people of the US and Congress. If you still do support him, why?

Instead of silly name calling, let's get down to policy. I personally don't care if you call me silly names, it's childish and counter productive. I'm not going to bother to react to poop throwing, we are past monkeys.

Do you think there are still "Weapons of Mass Distruction"?

red5angel

01-12-2005, 09:48 AM

You have stated that you want to nuke all of Iraq if they kill 1 POW

have I? better check your facts. Interesting spin on words.....

I have not made an assumption

I'll keep in mind that assumption also appears to mean something different to you then to the rest of us.

I remember what I have said and I also remember the context. I'm also aware of what I believe or don't believe in, and you sir, have made several huige assumptions based on your own interpretations. now that you're doing some research, I recommend you keep reading.

Newb

01-12-2005, 09:55 AM

Originally posted by red5angel
have I? better check your facts. Interesting spin on words.....

I'll keep in mind that assumption also appears to mean something different to you then to the rest of us.

I remember what I have said and I also remember the context. I'm also aware of what I believe or don't believe in, and you sir, have made several huige assumptions based on your own interpretations. now that you're doing some research, I recommend you keep reading. 3

I spun your words? Ok, would you care to explain to me what you DID mean when you said:

All I need to hear is that the Iraqis have been executing POW's and as far as I am concerned we can glass the whole fukking country.

Perhaps you ment if they executed 1 POW you were going to send them all glass, new windows? Maybe "Glassing a country" is code for NOT nuking them?

Also, I figured you would just ignore all of my questions and paradoxes I presented to you. Do I REALLY need to give you even MORE evidence that YES, you did support the Iraq war? I mean is all this necissary?

joedoe - it's roughly 43% who do not approve of war with Iraq.

I say let's do it, knock off with all the pretense and just kick Saddams butt from here to Allah.....

Get over it. Admit I was right, you supported the Iraq war. It has been a disaster. The adminsitration that launched this war was wrong on almost every single thing, and now hundreds of thousands of people and hundreds of billions of dollars are no longer with us because of the wrong policies you supported.

red5angel

01-12-2005, 10:33 AM

there's never been any doubt I supported or still support the war in Iraq. Of course I'm not trying to force my own vision of morality on the rest of the world. I'm supporting life, and how it is demanding to be lived in these times. I'm not a christian or a muslim, I'm not left or right, I'm not democrat, republican, communist or socialist. I'm red, I'm american and I'm happy to be living where I'm living at the moment, on top of the heap. Would it suck to be at the bottom? You bet your paranoid ass it would, that's why I hope we continue to shoot for the top and not allow defunct bodies like the UN try to drag us down. Could Bush do a better job? Certainly! Can we get along with everyone? Can every kid in the playground get along with each other?

Newb

01-12-2005, 10:52 AM

Originally posted by red5angel
there's never been any doubt I supported or still support the war in Iraq. Of course I'm not trying to force my own vision of morality on the rest of the world. I'm supporting life, and how it is demanding to be lived in these times. I'm not a christian or a muslim, I'm not left or right, I'm not democrat, republican, communist or socialist. I'm red, I'm american and I'm happy to be living where I'm living at the moment, on top of the heap. Would it suck to be at the bottom? You bet your paranoid ass it would, that's why I hope we continue to shoot for the top and not allow defunct bodies like the UN try to drag us down. Could Bush do a better job? Certainly! Can we get along with everyone? Can every kid in the playground get along with each other?

OK, so you FINALLY admit I was right when I said you supported the war. It was pointless to state that i was 'assuming' things and drag it out so long. You continue to call me 'paraniod' when you are the one supporting this war half a world away bombing a 3rd world nation with hundreds of billions of dollars to find non existant weapons of mass distruction. Although you have given me absolutely no examples of why I am paraniod, and I give you concrete examples of your support for the pointless Iraq war, to let's just say that I too, am paraniod (although you haven't even bothered to even try to give me 1 example), at least my paranoya hasn't cost us over $200 Billion dollars, streached the army to almost breaking points, killed thousands upon thousands of people.

If we stuck with the UN and didn't kick them out for not finding weapons of mass distruction, we would be AT LEAST 200 Billion dollars richer today which could be used NOT to privatize social security, build schools, feed the hungry, and so fourth. Everything Bush has touched so far, has turned to disaster. Even by their own cooked books, the economy went down the drain under Bushes watch. This isn't a choice between the UN or Bush (maybe in your mind it is) either. You have to take responsibility for your elected government. I personally never voted for Bush (seeing how he bankrupted every single company he owned except the baseball team he got in a sweetheart deal, in which he traded future hall of famer Sammy Sosa), however I took personal responsibility as a citizen. I told everyone I could about the fraud of Yellow Cake and the WMD that were comming from Ahmad Chalabi. I helped to try to stop the war, so we were not going to get in this mess, but Bush had his way and we got in. The point is, how do we get out?

red5angel

01-12-2005, 11:58 AM

I never claimed you were wrong about me saying I supported the war, I think you need to go back and read so you can figure out what I was talking about. Apparently I am being too subtle.

I won't join your terrorist organization.

Newb

01-12-2005, 12:05 PM

Originally posted by red5angel
I never claimed you were wrong about me saying I supported the war, I think you need to go back and read so you can figure out what I was talking about. Apparently I am being too subtle.

I won't join your terrorist organization.

Well Red, I've presented you with many questions that present many paradoxes for your support for the war, but you just ignore them since the paradoxes they present isn't something you're willing to face on a public forum.

You go as far as calling me a delusional paraniod terrorist, yet the policies you back have killed countless people, cost us hundreds of billions of dollars, to find non existant weapons of mass distruction.

stated you support the war in Iraq, and you couldn't even admit that, and stating that I am just 'assuming' things (then proceeded to show definations of 'assume' from a online dictionary), finally I had to post 2 or 3 quotes from you to back off and admit you do support the war.

I don't see any reason to continue discussing politics or anything serious with you as you just keep trolling. Therefore, if you're ever in southern california and want to have a live face to face debate, I'd love to, otherwise I'm done being trolled by you on this forum.

red5angel

01-12-2005, 12:12 PM

I don't see paradoxes and you have failed to point any out. You keep screaming about WMD's but frankly newb, that's old news. You need to move on. The issue isn't that you're right and I am not able to reply, the issue is that you see your way as right and I do not and so choose not to reply. I still support the war going on in Iraq. Are there better ways? Sure, but that's the main difference between fanatics like you and normal people like me, I can see that there are always options.

You go as far as calling me a delusional paraniod terrorist

I just call it like I see it.

yet the policies you back have killed countless people, cost us hundreds of billions of dollars, to find non existant weapons of mass distruction.

Ask the Kurds how they feel about it.

stated you support the war in Iraq, and you couldn't even admit that

you're still not paying attention.

I don't see any reason to continue discussing politics or anything serious with you as you just keep trolling.

there is no discussion. Your "organization" doesn't allow discussion. They give you what they want you to say and you go out and parrot it. You're not out to discuss you're out to convert.

Newb

01-12-2005, 12:20 PM

Sorry red, You have a reputation of being a troll and I can see why. Excuse me for bringing up weapons of mass distruction but that was the final reason for goign to war, after all. There are numerous questions you dodged repeatedly all over this forum, and quite frankly i'm done discussing serious topics with you. If you watn to have a face to face debate, I would LOVE to, but I doubt you make it out of MN much. If you do make it to so cali, you have to let me know and we will have a debate face to face. I am done being insulted by someone who supports policies that have not brought any security, has cost us over $200 billion dollars, has killed countless civilians with no end in sight. As Christ said, do not throw you pearls at swine and i'm done wasting my time with your petty childish insults and rantings. Good day.

red5angel

01-12-2005, 12:29 PM

that was the final reason for goign to war, after all.

actually, that was one of several but I could see how you would be mistaken. It was certainly the most popularized. Oh yeah, that and oil :rolleyes:

good call running away when it turns out you can't get your points crammed down a persons throats. You've had several people on this forum repeatedly showing you the error of your ways and continue to preach on my boy. You have a lot to learn and a long way to go.

Newb

01-12-2005, 01:00 PM

Originally posted by red5angel
actually, that was one of several but I could see how you would be mistaken. It was certainly the most popularized. Oh yeah, that and oil :rolleyes:

good call running away when it turns out you can't get your points crammed down a persons throats. You've had several people on this forum repeatedly showing you the error of your ways and continue to preach on my boy. You have a lot to learn and a long way to go.

The final reason we were pushed to war was the fraudulant weapons of mass distruction claim. Like it or not, I was right then, and I am right now. Good day to you sir.

norther practitioner

01-12-2005, 01:48 PM

A way leftist moral condundrum...

Overpopulation... why don't they just commit suicide.

Worried about wasting space, then take up 18 or so square ft. after death with their casket

Don't kill inocent people, let them shoot at us first... what if you knew I was going to shoot you in the head? would you just wait? Or would you act first. Oh, right, we didn't find the WMD, right he wouldn't kill people other ways, oh right, he wasn't scamming the oil for food...

:rolleyes:

Did they lie... YES
Do they continue to lie... YES

Of whom am I speaking:

The far left, and the Bush admin..

It's funny how fast someone (Newb) will quote something they read from a far left website, and go and debunk something else they read from the Bush Admin. while the truth of the matter is, neither is right.....

But I digress

Newb

01-12-2005, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by norther practitioner
A way leftist moral condundrum...

Overpopulation... why don't they just commit suicide.

Worried about wasting space, then take up 18 or so square ft. after death with their casket

Don't kill inocent people, let them shoot at us first... what if you knew I was going to shoot you in the head? would you just wait? Or would you act first. Oh, right, we didn't find the WMD, right he wouldn't kill people other ways, oh right, he wasn't scamming the oil for food...

:rolleyes:

Did they lie... YES
Do they continue to lie... YES

Of whom am I speaking:

The far left, and the Bush admin..

It's funny how fast someone (Newb) will quote something they read from a far left website, and go and debunk something else they read from the Bush Admin. while the truth of the matter is, neither is right.....

But I digress

I don't understand what you mean by your post. I do not support the far left or the far right. Sure there are decent individuals on both sides, but many of them are corrupt as hell. That is why the checks and balances do not work. I am no hardcore DNC type at all. Many of them are crooks, under the Soros and Rohatyn, as well as the Kennedy Banking influence. If you dont' b elieve me, check out this video of most of my larouchie friends from LA and Sacramento in the Democratic Convention of 2001 and of 2002. It will crack you up:

http://www.wlym.com/pages/video.html

Its under01-17-2004: LYM Intervention at the California State Democratic Convention Windows Media

11-03-2003: The East Coast LYM welcomes Terry McAuliffe to Philadelphia (Video) Windows Media

03-13-2003: LYM Intervention at the California State Democratic Convention Windows Media, Streamable

06-26-2003: LYM Intervention at the California League of Conservative Voters Windows Media, Streamable

Those vids on the site should give you a better idea. Perhaps we can have a discussion.

I don't know where you get the idea that I'm a far left winger, just because the war on Iraq is a disaster and a fraud, which I am not afraid to state, doesn't make me a far left winger. Ask Chuck Hagel (R), Ret. Gen. Anthony Zinni (CENTCOM), Ret. Gen. Anthony Hoar (CENTOM), former head of the UN weapons team Scott Ridder (R), heck even President George Bush Sr. They were against the steps that led us to war, and they are Republicans.

jun_erh

01-12-2005, 02:02 PM

I don't see why anyone who's not an american would care about the iraq war or WMD. As a taxpayer, I'm ****ed it wasn't neccesary in the end and if I was a soldier I'd be more ****ed, but if your country isn't there fighting and you're not paying for it what the hell do you care?? because of the civilians dying? You didn't seem to care too much about them before.

Newb

01-12-2005, 02:05 PM

Originally posted by jun_erh
I don't see why anyone who's not an american would care about the iraq war or WMD. As a taxpayer, I'm ****ed it wasn't neccesary in the end and if I was a soldier I'd be more ****ed, but if your country isn't there fighting and you're not paying for it what the hell do you care?? because of the civilians dying? You didn't seem to care too much about them before.

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere" -Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. The principles of the American revolution were principles based on humanity, and are universal.

red5angel

01-12-2005, 02:27 PM

The final reason

so you admit it's not the only reason? Thank you! That's all I needed ot hear, you can now go back to recruiting for your terrorist organization.

while the truth of the matter is, neither is right.....

How dare you go throwing common sense into this discussion! :D

Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere" -Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. The principles of the American revolution were principles based on humanity, and are universal.

what sort of injustices? Like gassing kurds? Maybe searching for the means to make or buy WMD's? I thought Saddam Hussein could never be a threat to us?

jun_erh

01-12-2005, 02:30 PM

that could just as easily be an argument to overthrow hussein. Putin and chirac aren't partiuclarly intelligent guys. They are pretty stupid actually. but you lefties listen to them. none of this causation stuff your talking about matters. I doesn't matter how we got here. we have to protect ourselves from militant islamic terrorism aggressively. It doesn't matter wh sold what to who in 1943. That's not going to make someone in israel less blowwn up when one of these mental patients goes on a bus with a bomb on him. He's not gonna say "I'm not being blown to pieces because I understand convuluted pints about narco-terrorism and banking." what matters is the here and now.

Newb

01-12-2005, 02:31 PM

Originally posted by red5angel
so you admit it's not the only reason? Thank you! That's all I needed ot hear, you can now go back to recruiting for your terrorist organization.

If you want to join a terrorist organization, join the US Army. Under our commander in chimp, we have bombed more innocent people than all of Hamas, Al Queda, and Hezbullah put together. What do you think of that?

what sort of injustices? Like gassing kurds? Maybe searching for the means to make or buy WMD's? I thought Saddam Hussein could never be a threat to us?

Donald Rumsfeld and the Reagan Admnistration sure didn't seem to think so, they kept supplying him with weapons. Like I said earlier tho, I'm done talking to you.

red5angel

01-12-2005, 02:34 PM

If you want to join a terrorist organization, join the US Army. Under our commander in chimp, we have bombed more innocent people than all of Hamas, Al Queda, and Hezbullah put together.

bombing is what an army does. "innocent" is purely subjective.

Donald Rumsfeld and the Reagan Admnistration sure didn't seem to think so, they kept supplying him with weapons. Like I said earlier tho, I'm done talking to you.

you mean you're contradicting yourself and starting backpedalling so don't want to take the risk of having your fraud exposed?

Newb

01-12-2005, 02:37 PM

Originally posted by red5angel
bombing is what an army does. "innocent" is purely subjective.

you mean you're contradicting yourself and starting backpedalling so don't want to take the risk of having your fraud exposed?

Haha, you are soooo sick. Well bombing is what a terrorist does, and all those 'innocent civilians' then are a subjective term. Do you see why I dont bother to talk to you anymore? A logical discussion is not possible if it doesn't conform to your views, you throw out all kinds of things such as 'proving that you support the iraq war' and other BS. As Christ said, do not throw your pearls as swine and I'm seiorusly done wasting my time with you. THank you and good day.

mortal

01-12-2005, 02:37 PM

newb

You are on so many threads with the same lame ass argument.

For a smart guy you aren't much of a speller.

Destruction with an E.

When are you going to realise you are preaching an old argument that has lost for the left politically. It is a losing position. The American people heard the arguments and made up their minds. George Dubya Bush and th repubs. Get over it you lost. Arguing with people on a Kungfu forum isn't getting you any converts. The best part is you don't even train and are fat by your own admission.

red5angel

01-12-2005, 02:46 PM

Well bombing is what a terrorist does

yep

and all those 'innocent civilians' then are a subjective term

no you're starting to catch on a little. I'm going to enlighten you a little, and you can look up several of those threads you did earlier to confrim this view: I don't care who's right or wrong. "right" or "wrong" is subjective, based on whatever belief system you want to build around yourself. However, if your right threatens my way of life, in anyway, I absolutely condone fighting for it. You won't hear those two words come from my mouth often when it involves these things. Sometimes you do what you have to do to survive, pure and simple. I'm an american and I live in america and I condone anything that helps those two things survive. I'm a human being, is I hope alternatives can be found so that my being human and my being american don't clash. I have had to make my own moral decisions in how to fight for what I believe in, have you?

A logical discussion is not possible if it doesn't conform to your views,

good job trying to turn that one around. It turns out atleast I'm being consistant here. You need to be. For example - reconcile this:

Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere"

with how going after saddam hussein was a bad thing. I"m not interested in hearing your broken record reply about america supplying hussein anything. I know what the facts are, but if you're going to go around throwing quotes like that, you need to be able to reconcile it with your whole argument and not just sue it where it applies best to you.

Newb

01-12-2005, 02:47 PM

Originally posted by mortal
newb

You are on so many threads with the same lame ass argument.

For a smart guy you aren't much of a speller.

Destruction with an E.

When are you going to realise you are preaching an old argument that has lost for the left politically. It is a losing position. The American people heard the arguments and made up their minds. George Dubya Bush and th repubs. Get over it you lost. Arguing with people on a Kungfu forum isn't getting you any converts. The best part is you don't even train and are fat by your own admission.

Awww! Don't tell me things I already made public, PLEASE! Yup, i Don't train and am overweight (not by that much), a few weeks of atkins and I'll be back to normal, so waht? I participate in other threads too. The point is that I dont mind telling the truth, even when it isn't pretty or 'nice' about me.

This isn't about getting converts, I have not even attempted to get 'converts'. People posted topics, or replied to my topic, so I am replying to them. The truth will need to be told. If the KKK voted democratically to commit a lynch mob, and they won over the opposition that voted no, is the opposition wrong? The point is, the final reason that the Bush administration give for going to war was a discredited Weapons of Mass Distruction claim, and it was completely fraudulant.

The American people are completely seperated in what they thing as we are split down the middle. As an American, I will continue to fight politically since this adminsitration is a horrible administration taht has cost countless lives and has accomplished very little. Wether it is a winning argument or not, it's being honest.

It's allright tho, the economy is going to down to hell, and the religious nuts that made up Bushes base are going to be very sad that the rapture didn't come. This Iraq fiasco will continue to spin out of control like it has since the 'mission accomplished' lame ass photo op. By that point you might face reality, either way, unless htere's something you watn to talk to me about, I'm done.

red5angel

01-12-2005, 02:48 PM

You are on so many threads with the same lame ass argument.

Mortal, its' doctrine in his group. He's probably cutting and pasting straight from documents fed to him.

The American people heard the arguments and made up their minds.

you have to be wrong, Newb says so. He knows americans who don't like Bush.

red5angel

01-12-2005, 02:50 PM

a few weeks of atkins and I'll be back to normal,

you know what's funny about this statement. Earlier I realized something. You're insistance in pushing the WMD excuse shows how much of a media sheeple you really are. You buy right iknto the whole thing, and haven't bothered to any more in depth research then what has been fed to you by the popular media (other then your group of course). This last statement just shows me how shallow your knowledge really is, and where it comes from ;)

Newb

01-12-2005, 03:03 PM

Originally posted by red5angel
you know what's funny about this statement. Earlier I realized something. You're insistance in pushing the WMD excuse shows how much of a media sheeple you really are. You buy right iknto the whole thing, and haven't bothered to any more in depth research then what has been fed to you by the popular media (other then your group of course). This last statement just shows me how shallow your knowledge really is, and where it comes from ;)

See, you do this all the time. You make a general statement mocking someone, then you don't back it up. You say alot, but don't say much content. I personaly know many people who did Atkins and lost tons of weight and kept it off using regular exercise. Hell 1 years ago I personaly lost over 20 pounds and know it works. I have read your other threads and you rarely add anything of substance to any discussion and simply troll, just like you have done here. I really do wish you were in southern california so we could have a face to face debate, so if you ever come down this way, I personally will drive down to see you and have a real debate. You can't get away with nearly half as much of the BS as you can on a forum in person on a live debate. Anyways, happy trolling, but I'm not going to feed this troll anymore here.

red5angel

01-12-2005, 03:10 PM

you mean general statements like :

See, you do this all the time

blahblahblah, you keep running away........

norther practitioner

01-12-2005, 03:15 PM

Sorry Newb, I was just ****ing around....

Wanted to stir the pot..

My thought, plain and simple is we needed to get Sadam out..

Newb

01-12-2005, 03:15 PM

Originally posted by red5angel
you mean general statements like :

blahblahblah, you keep running away........

Unlike you, I actually have a second AND lord behold 3rd sentance backing up what I said. Of course as a Bush supporter, I could understand if you didn't read up to the 2nd and 3rd sentance. It would explain alot on why you don't answer questions and just troll troll troll away baby! It's also really funny how you try to twist it to look like I just make a general broad comment and dont' back it up at all (like you do), then don't answer any of my questions on the same post right above yours. Anyone can just look at your post initial post and my reply. I find further discussion with you pointless unless it's actually in person, so good day to you.

Newb

01-12-2005, 03:18 PM

Originally posted by norther practitioner
Sorry Newb, I was just ****ing around....

Wanted to stir the pot..

My thought, plain and simple is we needed to get Sadam out..

Why did we need to get him out? After supporting him throughout his worst crimes in the 1980s, we had him cornered with the UN everywhere. He coudln't do a **** thing. Some people actually wanted Saddam anyways. So, why would we get rid of Saddam Hussein if he was in compliance (espcially looking at what has happened from then to today in Iraq), and if we did just need to get him out:

1.) Why wasn't that the reason we went to war instead of fraudulant claims of WMDs
and
2.) With over $200 billion dollars spent so far and counting, thousands dead, dont' you think it could have been done better?

Think about it. You wanted to get rid of 1 man.

red5angel

01-12-2005, 03:30 PM

Of course as a Bush supporter

who says I'm a bush supporter? Making more assumptions are we?

I haven't bothered to include a whole lot of detail because as I, and others have stated, this has all been gone over here before. You came back to preach to the masses and gain converts is all and a few of us have decided it's not needed. Everything I have needed to say has been said, you just don't want to pay a whole lot of close attention. Half the time you're not even replying or responding to the appropriate material because you're too busy trying to be a shepherd. you haven't said a whole lot worth respodning too, and when you are responded to properly by any of us, you regurgitate all the crap you've already stated a thousand times. It's just weak dude, real weak. i'm going to go ahead and give you an example and maybe it migt just make it through that blockhead of yours.

we had him cornered with the UN everywhere. He coudln't do a **** thing. Some people actually wanted Saddam anyways. So, why would we get rid of Saddam Hussein if he was in compliance (espcially looking at what has happened from then to today in Iraq), and if we did just need to get him out:

He wasn't in fukking compliance, a quick internet search will reveal that. however, this is exactly the reason why you don't get a whole lot of detailed responses from me or anyone else, you don't listen. you keep insisting your right and gloss over the points you're wrong or you state an opinion that is supposed to back up what you say as fact. It doesn't fukking work that way. In the above example, anyone paying attention to what was going on Iraq will be able to tell you that Saddam was constantly throwing the UIN inspectors out, getting in their way and denying them access to locations they wanted to inspect. I'm not sure about you but that certainly doesn't apply as "full compliance" to me.

red5angel

01-12-2005, 03:35 PM

What cracks me up is that you keep screaming about the government using the WMD excuse, but the problems he was giving UN inspectors was part of the reason they suspected he had WMD's! It's like you just want to pay attention to what works for you.

norther practitioner

01-12-2005, 03:35 PM

After supporting him throughout his worst crimes in the 1980s

Regardless, he was still a tyrant, and granted he didn't fulfill our needs anymore, but hey, should we keep making the same mistake?

we had him cornered with the UN everywhere

The UN, lol, are you ****ing kidding...

They couldn't find their own heads in their own asses if someone pointed to it. The UN right now is the biggest joke, they don't enforce crap, and everyone knows that...

He coudln't do a **** thing.

Except sell his oil... and still make money, and terrorize his own people.

Why wasn't that the reason we went to war instead of fraudulant claims of WMDs

Don't know.. I hate Bush, and I don't think right this second was great timing.. We should have cleaned up Afgan. first.

.) With over $200 billion dollars spent so far and counting, thousands dead, dont' you think it could have been done better?

Absolutely.... One man, thousands dead.. sounds funny to some, to me it seems that if we could have killed hitler with only a couple dead the world would have been much better.

Newb

01-12-2005, 03:36 PM

Originally posted by red5angel He wasn't in fukking compliance, a quick internet search will reveal that. however, this is exactly the reason why you don't get a whole lot of detailed responses from me or anyone else, you don't listen. you keep insisting your right and gloss over the points you're wrong or you state an opinion that is supposed to back up what you say as fact. It doesn't fukking work that way. In the above example, anyone paying attention to what was going on Iraq will be able to tell you that Saddam was constantly throwing the UIN inspectors out, getting in their way and denying them access to locations they wanted to inspect. I'm not sure about you but that certainly doesn't apply as "full compliance" to me. [/B]

That simply is not true. Before the invasion the UN was sent to Iraq. At that point, the last time the UN was in Iraq, they were allowed access without restrictions. What you are speaking about were the mid and late 1990s when Saddam wouldn't let members of the UN in and played around, partially because like it or not, the US inspectors were also being used as spys, The UN was satisfied at Saddams compliance BUT George Bush kicked the UN out, NOT Saddam Hussein. The UN stated they simply needed more time to make sure there were no Weapons of Mass Distruction.

red5angel

01-12-2005, 03:42 PM

That simply is not true. Before the invasion the UN was sent to Iraq.

just because you say it isn't true doesn't mean it isn't. How many more people need to tell you're wrong before you'll get it?

At that point, the last time the UN was in Iraq, they were allowed access without restrictions.

Where the fukk were you when all this was going on?! He balked slightly when the threat of war was thrown out, invited the UN inspectors in, then right away started causing problems. When the movement to war started, he revealed some destroyed missiles, that was it. It was all smoke an mirrors and nothing more, he was buying time.

the US inspectors were also being used as spys

Right, just the US inspectors were keeping tabs on things other then what they were there for. I also have some land to sell you in South Florida, real nice place.

The UN was satisfied at Saddams compliance BUT George Bush kicked the UN out, NOT Saddam Hussein.

No, asthe UN is only capable of doing now a days, it wanted to continue to stall for time and argue and keep giving Saddam one last chance. ever trained a dog Newb? Do you know how a dog behaves if you tell it not to do something but let it do that thing anyway? The UN has grown weak and was being pushed around and fukked with by Saddam and his regime. go do some fukking research before you start shooting off your mouth. You'd look a whole lot less like a Mooney.

norther practitioner

01-12-2005, 03:42 PM

And more time, and more time, and more time...

Newb

01-12-2005, 03:50 PM

Originally posted by red5angel
just because you say it isn't true doesn't mean it isn't. How many more people need to tell you're wrong before you'll get it?

Excuse me, but you and Zim aren't the authority. Your claiming he didn't give the UN access yet the UN was satisfied.

Where the fukk were you when all this was going on?! He balked slightly when the threat of war was thrown out, invited the UN inspectors in, then right away started causing problems. When the movement to war started, he revealed some destroyed missiles, that was it. It was all smoke an mirrors and nothing more, he was buying time.

The UN was satisfied with their access and they were allowed everywhere they wanted to go, such as the Presidental Palaces. The missles that you speak of were also legal missles since they were not filled with munitions. The idea was they were not allowed to go over something like 150 kilometers, and these went slightly over when they weren't filled. Regardless, he distroyed them anyways.

Right, just the US inspectors were keeping tabs on things other then what they were there for. I also have some land to sell you in South Florida, real nice place.

No thanks, Jeb and his crack addicted daughter can stay in FL and I'll stay in CA.

No, asthe UN is only capable of doing now a days, it wanted to continue to stall for time and argue and keep giving Saddam one last chance. ever trained a dog Newb? Do you know how a dog behaves if you tell it not to do something but let it do that thing anyway? The UN has grown weak and was being pushed around and fukked with by Saddam and his regime. go do some fukking research before you start shooting off your mouth. You'd look a whole lot less like a Mooney.

Wow so the UN was only capable of arguing huh? Well then how does Mr. Kay and Dueffler both come to the conclusion that the UN sanctions were working just fine since Saddams weapons programs were dismanteled under the UN, and the UN Sanctions worked?

SO I ASK YOU THIS QUESITON AGAIN SINCE YOU HAVE A HARD TIME EITHER SEEING THEM OR REPLYING TO THEM (CAPS FOR EMPHASIS, NOT YELLING):

WHY DID THE REPORTS THAT DUEFFLER AND KAY COME BACK SHOW THAT THE UN SANCTIONS WERE WORKING AND THAT SADDAM WAS DISARMED? WHY DID THE US COME TO THE SAME CONCLUSION AS THE UN THAT THERE WERE NO WMDS, EXCEPT IT COST US OVER $200 BILLION DOLLARS MORE AND COUNTING, WITH COUNTLESS DEATHS?

PS: Rev. Moon is a supporter of George W. Bush Sr. and George Bush Sr. has spoken numerous times as Rev. Moons events. He also has sponsored warhawk Joe Lieberman and other Pro-war fanatics. You should do your research before telling everyone else to do theirs.

Newb

01-12-2005, 03:51 PM

Originally posted by norther practitioner
And more time, and more time, and more time...

The point is, they were right, and the Cheneyacks were wrong. The US also needed 'more time' to send in 2 or 3 weapons teams to find them, and never did.

red5angel

01-12-2005, 04:00 PM

Excuse me, but you and Zim aren't the authority. Your claiming he didn't give the UN access yet the UN was satisfied.

no, again your assumption is wrong. I did not say he didn't give the UN acces, I said on several occasions he denied access completely, kicked them out of Iraq, forced them to remain in certain areas and denied them access to areas they insisted on searching. He constantly did this, there's not doubt about this its a FACT.

The UN was satisfied with their access and they were allowed everywhere they wanted to go, such as the Presidental Palaces.

They were not satisfied with their access, they continued to ask for more time to negotiate with saddam on larger more expansive inspections. Why would they do this if they had unlimited and complete access?

Regardless, he distroyed them anyways

Yes, he through the UN dog a bone to try to increase pressure on the US to not invade. But in staying in character, the UN did nothing but talk about it.

No thanks, Jeb and his crack addicted daughter can stay in FL and I'll stay in CA.

so much for intelligent conversation huh? A shot at anyone who resembls someone you dislike is in order and that's intellgent and adult conversation? :rolleyes:

WHY DID THE REPORTS THAT DUEFFLER AND KAY COME BACK SHOW THAT THE UN SANCTIONS WERE WORKING AND THAT SADDAM WAS DISARMED?

sigh, you're just not going to get it are you? The UN did not know, all we knew was that they were indeed being blocked at every oppurtunity, Saddam was hiding something. We DO know that several key pieces of equipment for the production of various WMD components went missing or were moved from locations ahead of the UN inspectors, and some of those devices are even now missing (suspected to be buried in the desert much like most of Iraq's air force was.). But why would he hide those things? Why would he stall the UN inspections? Cause he's a nice guy?

Rev. Moon is a supporter of George W. Bush Sr. and George Bush Sr. has spoken numerous times as Rev. Moons events. He also has sponsored warhawk Joe Lieberman and other Pro-war fanatics. You should do your research before telling everyone else to do theirs.

this is just a retarded response and shows exactly how much of a lame ass you are. you beling to a cult, Mooney belongs to a cult, get it? Also, your use of labels is interesting and revealing - "neo-cons" ;)

ZIM

01-12-2005, 04:32 PM

Excuse me, but you and Zim aren't the authority. Your claiming he didn't give the UN access yet the UN was satisfied. Leave me the heck outta this. I haven't even commented here.

Newb

01-12-2005, 04:47 PM

The fallacy of your entire post can be summed up in the fact that when the UN returned in 2003 they were allowed access and disclosed their entire weapons program in a 10000+ document. They were not 'kicked out' as you stated, they were told that they have 3 days to leave (and as they should have told President Bush, you have 3 days to see a shrink!). I clearly stated in my previous post that point to you. You then used facts from the old UN trips and tried to post as if it was happening right then before we attacked.

Saddam did not kick out the UN, George Bush did. Saddam also didn't break US resolution 1441, he let them have access and distroyed whatever they asked him. There were no Weapons of Mass Distruction. The pre-emtive strike on a sovergn nation state showed based on fraudulant evidence and death mongering.

ZIM

01-12-2005, 05:23 PM

howdy to:

Guest
Viewing Thread The History of Christian Terror
at 04:09 PM

the forum isn't always like this.
enjoy your stay.
:)

Newb

01-12-2005, 05:24 PM

Originally posted by ZIM
Leave me the heck outta this. I haven't even commented here.

My appologies.

red5angel

01-13-2005, 08:02 AM

LOL@ Zim

Newb, you ignoring the facts that work against your case doesn't make you anymore right. As I said before, a brief search on the web will show you that the UN did not have full co-operation from Saddam Hussein. He feigned full co-operation once he realized that the US was ready to declare war - because he knew he couldn't win and because he finally realized we were going to call his bluff, instead of letting the UN bungle the situtaion anymore.
As for WMD's, if you had been a paying attention to any of my posts on this subject, you'd have realized a long time ago thta it doesn't matter whether he had them or not. He wanted them, and he certainly was working to get them, and he'd had them before. Was he a threat to the US? Is the bully in the schoolyard a threat to all the kids in the schoolyard?
My only concern is for the survival of everyone who is interested in the things I am. Right or Wrong doesn't come into it, except as a nice frosting. If we can do things right and everyone co-operates, then excellent, we have a utopia, However, things don't tend to work out that way and it's niavety like yours and your cute organization that get more people hurt, killed and subjugated then anything else. There are some deep fundamental things going on in the middle east, the reason it's a hot spot, and it needs to be dealt with. In the state it's in now, it isn't going to happen. to bring change to a place you have to have free and unadulterated education and access to information. I'm curious how you think that is going to happen under a repressive system led by a dictatot? As for the past, who we the US support and so on, it's a ****ed shame we sometimes have to support the lesser of two evil's in a region to maintain stability, especially when it concerns out welfare, but that is a fact of life. It's funny the scale at which these types of moralities play. For instance, you odn't have an issue living in a structure that has displaced thousands of living beings, and changed the face of the planet you live on forever. You don't have a problem driving a thing that for all intents and purposes takes away from our environment and never gives back. You purchase the things made in places all over the world that are supposedly being suppressed by the united states, and you continure to live in a country you believe is doing everything wrong. It's easy to be in your position, why? Because you don't have to risk death, starvation, or exposure to the elements on a daily basis. You have a half assed education, tendentious beliefs, and you're afraid to make the real changes in your life that might affect this world in some small way. The organization you belong to is a joke and a farce. The majority of you live in First world countries, reaping the benefits of the system you object so much too. You want to join an organization that is really helping people? Join the fukking Peace Corp and make a real difference. Go someplace where you can lend a helping hand to the all those innocent people. So many innocent civilians getting killed, dsiplaced and abused by the war in Iraq and there you sit in Southern California with your air conditioning, your fast food and you heat when it gets cold. Fukk you and your pretentious attitude. I spent 4 years in the middle east and in africa seeing how the other people live and I will defend my current way of life however I see fit. I can only hope the changes to come are for the better and for everyone, but I'm not going to fool myself into thinking I have all the fukking answers, and I'm not going to sit here in my nice cozy office, drinking my free cofee, tea and soda, thinking about that chinese dinner I had last night for a mere 12$ a head, and try to preach to the world that it needs to be fixed.

Newb

01-13-2005, 10:13 AM

Originally posted by red5angel
LOL@ Zim

Newb, you ignoring the facts that work against your case doesn't make you anymore right. As I said before, a brief search on the web will show you that the UN did not have full co-operation from Saddam Hussein. He feigned full co-operation once he realized that the US was ready to declare war - because he knew he couldn't win and because he finally realized we were going to call his bluff, instead of letting the UN bungle the situtaion anymore.

And if you actually read my posts, you will see that I already addressed this. The UN had unfettered access as requested in resolution 1441. The Bush Administration didn't kick out the UN because Saddam didn't let them in, but because the Bush Admin wasn't pleased that the UN hasn't found the weapons of Mass Distruction. Also, the UN wasn't 'bungleign' the situation at all, as our weapons experts reports showed, the UN Sanctions worked and Saddam did not have the weapons anymore due to the UNs work. Of course, you will continue to just ignore that.

WMD's, if you had been a paying attention to any of my posts on this subject, you'd have realized a long time ago thta it doesn't matter whether he had them or not.

Vice President **** Cheney, President George Bush, Secretary of Defence Donald Rumsfeld, Undersecratery of Defence Doughlas Feith and a gaggle of other chickenhawks (who all dodged the draft) repeatedly stated Saddam had weapons of mass distruction and thus we need to attack him pre-emptively. That is why congress authorized a pre-emptive war against a nation that never attacked nor could have. You do not launch a pre-emptive attack on someone if they are thinking about getting weapons but have no way of doing it. We were told repeatedly that he did have them, not that maybe he had them, not maybe he ws thinking about them. If they told the truth, they wouldn't have gotten their war.

he wanted them, and he certainly was working to get them, and he'd had them before.

Saddam might have wanted to give birth to a baby boy but without the female reproductive system, he wasn't going to get it. The weapons that he did have before were from when he was our Ally and good old donald rumsfeld was meeting with him.

Was he a threat to the US?

Not in the slightest. You would be more likely to be invaded from the moon than Saddam Hussein. The $200+ billion dollars and counting spent on this war is a threat to the USA. The "D" level rotted out infrastructure is a threat to the USA. Saddam was not. This is just like Adolf Hitlers address on how they need to pre-emptively strike Poland because Poland was goign to attack Germany. It wasn't possible, poland didn't have the resources, and neither did Saddam.

Is the bully in the schoolyard a threat to all the kids in the schoolyard?

Yes, the United States economic policy that has caused massive distruction since the time of Nixon and carter with teh floating exchange rate and deregulated international trade has caused massive looting. Look at Argentina, Brazil, Mexico, and so on. These guys are our economic slaves. Yes, the US currently is a threat to all the kids.

But what if you're intrested in the wrong things? What if you're intrested in having free internet porn, baseball and football, as well as maintaining your standard of living off the 3rd world like are doing? What if you're intrested in buying very cheap crap forced from 3rd world countreis? What if you aren't intrested in making sure every single child has the capability to be free to study and be wahtever they want to be?

[quote]
Right or Wrong doesn't come into it, except as a nice frosting.
Figured as much.

If we can do things right and everyone co-operates, then excellent, we have a utopia, However, things don't tend to work out that way and it's niavety like yours and your cute organization that get more people hurt, killed and subjugated then anything else.

Imagine you're a victim of the mob and they demand you to work for them for pennies a day, sell off your house, or they'll kill your family. You don't co-operate and **** hits the fan. That is how the financial elite such as the financial controllers Felix Rohatyn and George Sorosof the democrats and George Shultz of the Republicans have lived. We loot the 3rd world, steal their resources and get their population to work for us for virtual slave labor wages, get the population of that nation to get their own resources and give it to us for pennies a day. We also loot their workforce through companies liek Nike and Walmart that run many sweatshops in Mexico. I will not co-operate with fascist bankers that want to loot my friends, family, and country; and do not hold it against anyone who does. Your view that we are good, they are bad, so if it doesn't work it's their fault is really crazy. You can say i'm just 'assuming' that, but that is exactly how you act; so either you believe that or you are not being honest.
'

There are some deep fundamental things going on in the middle east, the reason it's a hot spot, and it needs to be dealt with.[ In the state it's in now, it isn't going to happen. to bring change to a place you have to have free and unadulterated education and access to information. I'm curious how you think that is going to happen under a repressive system led by a dictatot? As for the past, who we the US support and so on, it's a ****ed shame we sometimes have to support the lesser of two evil's in a region to maintain stability, especially when it concerns out welfare, but that is a fact of life.

Nevermind the fact that Khomeini of Iran himself was put into power by British intellegence during the iran-contra days, and the entire Afghanistan 'drugs for guns' was also ran by the US and British Intellegence agencies such as the NSA and MI6. Saddam Hussein was most evil when we fully supported him, and used him to bring Iran and Iraq both into deeper poverty. Our continued looting of the 3rd world and conquest through millitary interventions so far has fallen flat on its face since these guys are completely incompetent. We are not bringing stability, but further death and chaos.

It's funny the scale at which these types of moralities play. For instance, you odn't have an issue living in a structure that has displaced thousands of living beings, and changed the face of the planet you live on forever.

You mean the backing of the USA with the Rwanda conflict where we played both sides? Do you mean our backing of Saddam? Do you mean the Vietnam War? Which conflicts are you talkign about?

You don't have a problem driving a thing that for all intents and purposes takes away from our environment and never gives back.

I have a very gas effecient car that I maintain properly. If you're so worried about the environment, I present you with LaRouches plan to green the gerat american desert to have a economic and environmental recovery! Perhaps you should also write President Bush telling him his tax cut for the huge trucks such as hummers has wasted alot of gas, worn down the roads, and has madea lot of people buy these huge hulking machines which make us more dependant on foreign oil stinks. Oh, and his artic drilling plans also stink.

Projects for North America Water and Power Management
http://www.schillerinstitute.org/economy/maps/maps2.html#nawapa

Newb

01-13-2005, 10:15 AM

You purchase the things made in places all over the world that are supposedly being suppressed by the united states, and you continure to live in a country you believe is doing everything wrong.

Supposedly?!?!? Are you blind bro?! Go look at all the things in your house. If you find 1 thing that says 'made in the USA', it's probably just the sticker. Remember when Bush give a speech about 2 years ago and the backdrop looked like piles of boxes that said 'made in the USA', but it was just a simple backdrop. Even our weapons are being made in places like Israel and Taiwan since we cant' produce enough of those. One only needs to look at the historic trade deficit gap from the Bush Administrations term to see how much of our goods are made overseas. Nay, not 'supposedly', but 'deffinately'. Also, I don't believe we are doing every single thing wrong, if we were, many of us would be dead already. however, the USA has a constitution that requires a thinking population to take responsibility for the government, and that is what I am doing. That is what is required in a Democracy.

It's easy to be in your position, why? Because you don't have to risk death, starvation, or exposure to the elements on a daily basis.

Ok, whats your point? I take it if you have time to write this long winded reply you too have electricity and the same comforts I have.

You have a half assed education,

I am educated in more things than you probably are. You want to get into another debate about it to prove it, be my guest!

tendentious beliefs
My beliefs are of the lines of Benjamin Franklin, Alexander Hamilton, Abraham Lincoln, William Mackenly, William Mckinley, Henry Carey, and Franklin Delano Roosvelet. I believe in a just economic system where the wealth of a nation can also be measured by creative potential of the population. A just economic order where banks and countries do not indebt nations to unpayable debts then demand those nations kill their own population to pay them back (money which they never borrowed to begin with).

Your beliefs on the other hand have so far killed over a hundred thousand innocent people, supported dictators that we invade a entire country to take out, and cost over $200 Billion dollars. Your beliefs work against the natural order of the universe, and have caused massive havoc and chaos.

, and you're afraid to make the real changes in your life that might affect this world in some small way.

I personally have made great changes, you don't know me at all so where you get off saying this I don't even know. Please do tell, what changes can I make that you think I'm afraid to? I'm 'afraid' to vote for and support Bushes wrong and stupid policies, so that might affect teh world in some small way? Your crazy.

The organization you belong to is a joke and a farce.

You don't know a thing about it lol. The fact that LaRouche was able to raise over $8 million dollars for his presidental campaign, and had the biggest number of contributors in the primaries according to official FEC records shows you something. Also, seeing how many millions of dollars and jobs are put on the line to illegally keep LaRouche out of the political process as much as possible shows you something is wrong with your theory. Also seeing how great leaders of the civil rights movement such as Rosa Parks, Rev. James Bevel, Amelia Boynton Robinson, and other great leaders such as Rabbis from the civil rights movement, along other world leaders don't agree with you, why else would they risk their lives to work with LaRouche? Oh, you wont hear about it in CNN however.

The
majority of you live in First world countries, reaping the benefits of the system you object so much too.
Actually the majority of the world lives in 3rd world countries. Also, the 'benefits' you are speaking about aren't benefits. You cannot have teh rest of the world working for you in slave labor conditions. it is Hitlerian and Schachtian economics (transfered to MIlton Friedman) which simply doesn't work. Sure a few a-holes get things cheaper for at ime being, but then the system crumbels. The 3rd world will not continue to sacrifice itself simply because of the threat of the might of the US Millitary, and seeing how we can't produce nearly enough for our own population, that puts us in trouble. I personaly am going to sow my own clothes with cotton that was grown in America. I wish I could buy the cotton from farms that only use tractors and such that are all made in the USA, but I can't find any.

You want to join an organization that is really helping people? Join the fukking Peace Corp and make a real difference.
Go someplace where you can lend a helping hand to the all those innocent people.
The problem is the entire system is corrupt. The system is designed for the powerful financeers to continue to loot the 3rd world. I can go to africa and give them some medicie and blankets, but they will still die until US policy changes from willfull depopulation. You can have a bigger effect living in the USA changing the system, then tryign to fight the system with your very limited resources.

So many innocent civilians getting killed, dsiplaced and abused by the war in Iraq

Yup, thanks to this stupid illegal war that was started by fraud and deception. I'm glad you finally agree about the humanetarian didsaster. Perhaps if we stopped flattening cities it would help. Even if I were a general like Shensheki, Schwartzkoph, Zinni, or Hoar, George Bush still wouldn't listen to me; as he demonstrated.

and there you sit in Southern California with your air conditioning, your fast food and you heat when it gets cold.

Awww, are you jealous of my air conditioning? Do you guys not have AC up in MN? If it wasn't for FDR you wouldn't even have electricity to run your own AC either!

Fukk you and your pretentious attitude.

No buddy, anal ram yourself like your policies are doing to the rest of the worlds population.

I spent 4 years in the middle east and in africa seeing how the other people live and I will defend my current way of life however I see fit.

And I have spent 10 years there. I even spent time there during the Iran-IRaq war while US weapons bombed my friends, while US chemical weapons gassed other people, and US weapons sold to Iran while they played both sides killed Iraqis and put both nations in a huge dark age and debt to who else but the US and Britain! After that, the cheap oil flowed like honey.

I can only hope the changes to come are for the better and for everyone, but I'm not going to fool myself into thinking I have all the fukking answers, and I'm not going to sit here in my nice cozy office, drinking my free cofee, tea and soda, thinking about that chinese dinner I had last night for a mere 12$ a head, and try to preach to the world that it needs to be fixed. [/B]

That is your problem. You DON'T know the answers. You are like a fish that was in a fish bowl that is now in the ocean. You just go in circles in your virtual fishbowl. In order to make the countries that you visited have a standard of living like we do we must change our economic policy back to the American System which defends the nations from foreign looting through speculation of their currency (such as what George Soros did to Thailand and Mexico).

I propose a debate right here, right now. We will stick on topic. The debate topic is this:

What would YOU do as President of the USA to fix the problems of the Middle East and Africa as you saw, and the rest of the world? Let our solutions be our dialogue so we can discuss development and see what each others solution is. From presenting a solution and having questions asked about it, everyone can find out alot more about us and see who is morally right, and who is wrong.

If you cannot accept my challenge, that's fine, but I have no other business to discuss with you as it's a waste of time. So, are you up for the debate?

red5angel

01-13-2005, 10:17 AM

you're not going to find converts to your terrorist group here Newb. Zim and I have outed you on the fact your on a "missionary" project here at KFM, hell you don't even practice the martial arts so what other reason would you be here for?

Blah blah blah, until you get off your fat (self admitted) ass and get out and help al these people you are crying so much about, fukk off. Keep feeding your face and trying to brain wash peopel to the Larouche group on the web you fukking wannabe.

Newb

01-13-2005, 10:23 AM

Originally posted by red5angel
you're not going to find converts to your terrorist group here Newb. Zim and I have outed you on the fact your on a "missionary" project here at KFM, hell you don't even practice the martial arts so what other reason would you be here for?

Blah blah blah, until you get off your fat (self admitted) ass and get out and help al these people you are crying so much about, fukk off. Keep feeding your face and trying to brain wash peopel to the Larouche group on the web you fukking wannabe.

Well Mr. Sherlock Holmes and Watson, please show me 1 place here where I tried to convert anyone. If you can't, your full of S hit.

/edit
or your logic is SEVERLY flawed.

I mean seriously, if you claim i've come here to convert people like a missionary to the LaRouche organization, shouldn't you have AT LEAST 1 post where I tried to do that? Also, shouldn't you ALREADY have the numerous that I would have had to make if you are making such claims? After all, it is like you to make inflammitory comments with no research and no backing up.

/edit x2

here I'll even make it easier for you and post the link to a thread that I talked about LaRouche specifically:

Now let's see, I was registered since September of 2004. 3 months later, after posting for help in training tips, as well as in other related Kung Fu topics, LaRouche had a webcast right before the certification of Bush. I posted a link to that webcast on this thread:
http://martial.best.vwh.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34720

Therefore, your argument is TOTALLY bunk. IF I were here as a 'larouche' missionary, You would have found a HELL OF ALOT MORE than 1 or 2 points where i initiated a conversation about larouche.

So while you go looking for a trail of breadcrumbs like Sherlock Holmes, or while you search in vain for the Purloined Letter, I will continue my investigation with the free time I have at work like inspector Dupin. Good day to you sir!

FuXnDajenariht

01-13-2005, 11:53 AM

aaaiieeee, this is painful to watch...

why are you wasting your time with red5, Newb?

hes just gonna wear you down and then when you quit he'll claim he won the debate...

Newb

01-13-2005, 12:11 PM

Originally posted by FuXnDajenariht
aaaiieeee, this is painful to watch...

why are you wasting your time with red5, Newb?

hes just gonna wear you down and then when you quit he'll claim he won the debate...

Heh, that is why I want a real in person debate. I'm comfortable knowing I made my point consistently if anyone actually wants to dig through any of that. As far as 'internet arguing' goes, i'm done wasting my time. Some people you just can't have a serious discussion with.

norther practitioner

01-13-2005, 12:48 PM

I was just trying to get a rise out of Newb.. I don't agree with you, but I don't care... I think some of the things discussed as fact aren't quite there, but very probable. Either way, I was just in my car with my boss... he listens to Bill O'Reilley.. that guy is a tool. Either way, they were talking wmds and such, I just thought it was funny... he was saying how it isn't so black and white.

jun_erh

01-14-2005, 11:20 AM

newb- the reason we supported saddam was because your president was a completely deranged mental patient. We should be ****ed at YOU for foisting him on the world.

No offense dude, but I have known Iranians before and my guess is you probably believe the tsunami, 9/11, and the Red Sox winning the World Series was the work of the jews. You have a high tech way of saying it, but it is what you believe right?

Newb

01-14-2005, 11:54 AM

Originally posted by jun_erh
newb- the reason we supported saddam was because your president was a completely deranged mental patient. We should be ****ed at YOU for foisting him on the world.

No offense dude, but I have known Iranians before and my guess is you probably believe the tsunami, 9/11, and the Red Sox winning the World Series was the work of the jews. You have a high tech way of saying it, but it is what you believe right?

Jun, that's pretty rude, but understandable. I know many Iranians are deranged, but to be honest....Americans who believe that Usama Bin Ladin masterminded 9-11, took down air security over DC for over 2 hours, and hit the Pentagon are more deranged. Even before you posted this, i posted in another thread that no, it's quite stupid think the Jews run the world. At best, the state of Israel as a country is being used by financial intrests centered in London and Wallstreet. Sure Israel has an arsenal of over 400 nukes, some of which can hit us anywhere in the world. As far as the British and Wallstreet through DC want to use Israel to do their work, they will. However one day, Israel will become useless like Saddam and Bin Ladin got, and we all know what happens to you when you aren't usefull anymore. That is the scary part. These financeers that are using Israel as a hand gernade, will cause a new holocaust if they start a war with Israel and the Arabs. I don't want to hear any dillusions about how Israel can kick the asses of those billion arabs surrounding it by nuking them, the Jewish state will simply be distroyed if they start a war. Therefore, what Sharon and the bankers are doign to Israel is not in their intrest.

Also, if you look at the history of Iran in the 1900s you will see that the US and Britain (espcially Britain) ran several coups and even had attacked Iran (britain did) to control the Oil Fields. Our moderate leader who took the oilfields back from the British was kicked out in a coup with help from the CIA in the 1950s. The British and American Intellegence Agencies also got the Shah kicked out of Iran and brought in their crazy mad man Khomeini. Khomeini destroyed Iran, and created tons of new recruits to fight for the US in Afghanistan against the Russians.

The problem comes from modern imperialism that use the millitary and financial power of the USA to carry out their crimes against humanity through economic slavery. Sometimes you need to bring in the thugs like they did with the Nazis to get your debt and keep the population under control. In Iran, the financeers 'Hitler' was Khomeini. The coup in Iran war ran out of Britain and the USA intellegence agencies and it worked perfectly for them. Iran and Iraq both became very weak, they lost their scientific and cultral background, as well as became financial slaves. As a result, the desired effect of lowered population, cheaper resources, lower paid population, and more instability in the area to scare other countries.

The problems of the USA come from wtihen the USA. The USA has a constitution, the longest serving constitution in our civilizations history. This constitution of the US is an anti-imperialistic constitution which the people can wield the power to stop the financeers from looting nations like this, but we as a nation do not do that. Our population has also been dumbed down for over 45 years, since the attack on the baby boomers generations of cultural shock and the cuba missle crisis. From then on, our population fled into a 'suburban' state of mass entertainment and has turned into what it is now.

ZIM

01-14-2005, 12:42 PM

jeebus (http://www.auburn.edu/~nylenjc/closeit.jpg)

mortal

01-14-2005, 01:37 PM

Israel is fully capable of beating back those arabs with out nukes. They did it before. And that was against an unprovoked sneak attack. Oh yeah and they did it in under a week.

I figured a know-it-all like you would know that. I still see your veiws as anti-israel pro arab all the way.

jun_erh

01-14-2005, 01:57 PM

Americans who believe that Usama Bin Ladin masterminded 9-11, took down air security over DC for over 2 hours, and hit the Pentagon are more deranged.

have you read the 9-11 commision report? I make fun of you for being a conspiracy theorist and THIS is your comeback???

. In Iran, the financeers 'Hitler' was Khomeini. The

hahaha! that old iranian humour!!! yeah I guess Newsweek magazine created khomenie. Yeah Carter didn't like the Shah. Most people doon't like th saudis either. My guess is people in the UK are pretty glad nazi armband master harry doesn't have any actual political power. Militant Islam was happening, the US didn't do anything to stop it. IT'S NOT OUR JOB and it's still YOUR FAULT that people are so STUPID they FOLLOWED ayatollah khomenei. If anyone wants to read the most deranged stuff on earth seek out the ayatollahs writings, he makes michael jackson look like normal.

the iranian people loved ayatollah khomenei. they loved him and cried when he died. it wasn't caused by some bank in London.

Why do you suppose the US, ISrael, and the UK don't make women wear burkes and have close relatives killed? Why do you suppose Tony Blair doesn't have streets named after himself??

Stop insulting our intelligence. take responsibilty and stop blaming everyone else for problems in your own culture. We've about had it with your lies

red5angel

01-14-2005, 02:02 PM

Americans who believe that Usama Bin Ladin masterminded 9-11, took down air security over DC for over 2 hours, and hit the Pentagon are more deranged.

:eek:

you're officially dismissed newb.

I'm with ZIM, I think ANY thread newb opens not pertaining to the martial arts should be closed.

mortal

01-14-2005, 02:02 PM

jun_erh

WORD!

jun_erh

01-14-2005, 02:21 PM

for the record I'm against closing threads in general. I just don't get it. Don't post/ read if you're not interested.

The Hidden Hand- middle east fears of conspiracy (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0312176880/002-9615153-4945648?v=glance)

Not exactly a stephan King/ Harry potter page turner, but it's a favorite of mine for it's thoroughness.

One interesting, though small, part of the book is dedicated to actual conspiracies such as Iran-Contra. What you see is that governmants are bauerocracies (sp?) who move slowly and theres tons of egos and paperwork and whatnot involved. It seems clear the for a conspiracy to go off undetected would be pretty hard to do if you are one of these huge government entities.

Newb

01-14-2005, 03:13 PM

Originally posted by jun_erh
have you read the 9-11 commision report? I make fun of you for being a conspiracy theorist and THIS is your comeback???

Have you read the Warren Commission? So do you believe it? It also told us things that we know can't be true, such as Kennedy was shot from the back of the head by Oswald. 30 years later, and it's still the same info.

The fact also remains on 9-11: Usama Bin Ladin did not have the capability to bring down air security over Washington DC and let airplanes crashing into buildings fly off course for 2 hours. How did Usama Bin Ladin turn off air security over DC?

hahaha! that old iranian humour!!! yeah I guess Newsweek magazine created khomenie.

No, not newsweek, sarcasm noted. "The Muslim Brotherhood" was used by British for Geopolitical manipulation for a while, and they used their offices out of Princeton University and London actually. The BBC was the news agency that was blasting pro Khomeini propoganda all over Iran, as well as Khomeinis speeches while Khomeini was exiled in Paris.

Yeah Carter didn't like the Shah.

Forget Carter, Henry Kissinger, British Petroleum, the British Monarchy and other financeers didn't like the Shah. The Shah had agreed with Germany and France to export inexpensive Petrolium in exchange for jet and nuclear fuel technology. They were also working to have a different currency exchange that wasn't so dollar dominated. He was modernizing Iran with some of the best new technologies around from creating machine tools, manufacturing and mining, nuclear and jet technology, and other great projects.

I'm going to reply to the rest of your posts with this:

Zbignew Brzezinski under carter said there will be no new Japans in the middle east, and he too was determined to bring back fundamentalist religious backwardness to provide troops to fight in Afghanistan in their 'guns for drugs' program. This is what Iran-Contra was mostly about. We fully supported and helped or even in some cases, created, religious fundamentalist muslim groups with their opium/heroine drug money in afghanistan. The money is still today laundered in London where no questions are asked. From there the British Monarchy and other financeers continue to generate trillions of dollars in credit using this drug money as leverage.

How do you think the super rich get super rich? How does a CEO run a company that has over 30 Trillion dollars worth of deriviative bets? Do they get that by being a 'nice guy' or a 'shrewd businessman'? How many people do you know that wouldn't have a problem with murder if it was worth trillions of dollars? If you say none, you are deluding yourself or you live in a very secluded monestary with no internet connection. The financeers that allow the british laws which let terrorists grow and launder their funds there, actually have policies of depopulation. They argue that if a country has too many people, they will want to use their own resources. and we can't take it. If the people of those countries don't use their own resources, it will be possible for us to take it. The prefered method of looting a nation is to get the controlled population to act as virtual slaves and work for pennies a day (to keep them from revolting and to keep alive a little bit longer) to do your work for you. This is how the Roman Empire ran, this is how the Venetian Empire ran, along with the Persian Empire, the Nazis, and the British Empire. It is a simple and beastial conception of man, and is no conspiracy theory. You can give countless examples of this happening right now.

The fact is simple. Financeers centered in London and the USA pushed governments with their hundreds of trillions of dollars, bought out puppets, since 5 companies control all the mass media you see everyday, bought them out too, and slowly rotted out the education system. WIth a few hundred trillion dollars, you can do that esaily. People are easily bought out, politicians (espcially baby boomerS) are very gladly bought out to the highest bidder, and the ones that aren't are generally distroyed. This faction behind the Assassination of John F. Kennedy with the fake Warren Commission cover up.

Saddam Hussein, Khomeini, The Taliban with Bin Ladin and Al Queda, Pinochét, and other dictators unfortunately are put in until they are useful, then taken out when they aren't. You can see George Bushes social security privatization is literally modeled upon the Chiléan Fascist Dictator Pinochéts method of stealing the pension of the people for the financeers. In George Bushes case, he is stealing it for Wallstreet financeers. The people of the USA have the power to fight this fascist oligarchical system that has corrupted the political process. This is why I am a Citizen, because as a Citizen it is my duty to maintain checks and balances on the government.

Oh and please cut out the hate on Iranians please, allright? Like you, we are just people. Please don't lecture me on how Iranians feel about Khomeini. I've had enough of my cousins whipped almost tod eath for being in co-ed parties, enough of my relatives dead from wars with US and British weapons designed to kill as many people as possible, and further grief I don't wish to bring up right now with the Government of Iran, and I know the people don't and didn't support them. You always have a group of village idiots that will support whoever the next freak is. Yes, that happens everywhere. You don't understand what kind of internal fascist police state the Iranian people went through. Khomeini WASN'T popular. The Iranian people were allowed to vote if they didn't want Khomeini after the revolution. My dad who was a 2nd Lieutenant in the Shahs army, then turned revolutionairy fighter, saw Khomeini all of a sudden was brought in, and went to vote AGAINST Khomeini. Too bad the Iranian people couldn't since whoever did dare to try to vote against Khomeini, they were thrown in prison never to be seen again, or just killed. So I ask again, please don't sit there telling me about how much the Iranian people support Khomeini and the fundies. I know you're wrong.

jun_erh

01-14-2005, 03:18 PM

what a total loser huh guys?

Newb

01-14-2005, 03:19 PM

Originally posted by jun_erh
what a total loser huh guys?

I love you.

jun_erh

01-14-2005, 03:21 PM

So do you believe israel controls the US or vice versa?

Newb

01-14-2005, 03:34 PM

Originally posted by jun_erh
So do you believe israel controls the US or vice versa?

Believing Israel controls the US is just silly. However it's not like the US has Israel on a leash either. The US exerts a certain kind of political power. We all know it's quite alot, more than all of Europe put together. Israel at the moment has by all estimates, roughly 400 nuclear missles. They also have a missle that launched the Orfek-5 sattelite earlier last year, which can be used to launch a nice sized payload anywhere in the world. Therefore, Israel has a certain risk of being a 'break away ally'. For example, ignoring the nuclear weapons, Israel can attack Irans nuclear power plant, then the US will have to step in and try to finish it up. Iraq will look like a paradise if they try to attack Iran. Sure hte US could just nuke Iran, but that will just start the process of the demise of the US itself. Israel itself has blackmail power with its missles if it wishes to do it. Finally, Israel isn't in full control by the US as the Jonathan Jay Pollard affair shows. In the middle of the LaRouches backdoor SDI negotiations with the Russians, a low level pentagon employee is getting classified information, pictures the US sattelites were taking of russians, and passing them to the Russians from the Israeli Embassy using Arial Sharon. The Russians then helped bring lots of new citizens into Israel (and many of these 'new jews' weren't circumsized until age 30 if you know what I mean). This was very bad news. The Russian Defence Minister Andropov was kind of a nut, and wanted a bigger soviet empire. He thought he could use these pictures to launch a millitary offensive against western europe, since they figured out the pattern of where the US looks. Luckly, Andropov didn't get his way. The point is Jay Pollard who is still in prison for spying on Israel. I'm not going to get into the most recent Israeli spy ring unless you ask.

Regardless, certain financeers feel that they benefit from chaos. By having the right wing of Israel kill Yitzhak Rabin, they are guaranteed more chaos. If the state of Israel continues on it's current path, the same thing Yitzhak Rabin warned about will happen. You see it happening. The state is turning into a millitary dictatorship and is on the verge of bankruptcy. If Israel continues its aggression against the Palestnians in the method it has admitted to using, the method of Nazi war criminal Jurgen Stroop, it will cause more and more tension. One day, the extreme religious right wing of Israel will succeed in blowing up the 3rd holiest site in all of Islam, the Al Asqa mosque in Jerusalem. A step like that will be the first domino in the destruction of Israel as a nation. My policies that I propose are the policies of Yossi Beilin, Armam Mitzna, Yitzhak Rabin, Rabbi Sacks, Rabbi Arthur Hertzberg, and others. The peace camp of peace through development will stop terrorism and this religious warfare.

red5angel

01-14-2005, 03:44 PM

what a total loser huh guys?

duh, he belongs to a terrorist group so obviously does not support anything or anyone fighting terror. Also, since he only has one source, the Larouche group, and all their information is waaaaaay off, I guess I'd have to agree with you.

Newb

01-14-2005, 04:40 PM

Originally posted by red5angel
duh, he belongs to a terrorist group so obviously does not support anything or anyone fighting terror. Also, since he only has one source, the Larouche group, and all their information is waaaaaay off, I guess I'd have to agree with you.

You don't think cutting out the $600 Billion dollars in British Banks that belong to narco-terrorists is fighting terror? The actions of the US have killed more civiliasn than terrorist, thus they have created more terrorists than they have killed.

How about the Southern Columiban drug lords? Here is apicture of the Southern Columbian Drug Lords (FARC) money man, Raul reyes with Richard Grasso. The FARC launders their drug money in wallstreet to the tune of billions of dollars. I personally can run the war on terror 10x better than President Bush has. I would cut off the banks that launder drug money for terrorists, sieze the drug money, and work with the populations of nations to rebuild their nation together. I would get jobs to those people who are shooting us that have no job. Those people that will actually have a future worth living for, will put down their guns and help build the nation. The ones that have had all their family killed by US troops might or might not put down their guns, those people can be delt with.

Question: If Bush is the 'war on terror' President, then how come more terrorists are now active and being trained than before the Bush Presidency?

A century of British state-sponsored terror
http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2001/010914_1995_terror_intro.html

Put Britain on the List of States Sponsoring Terrorismhttp://www.larouchepub.com/lar/2000/terror_memo_2703.html

PS: I love you too Red5 and would never do anythign to hurt you. On the other hand you support policies that have killed over a hundred thousand civilians. the real terrorist here is you, but I still love you like a brother. =P GOD BLESS YOU!

jun_erh

01-16-2005, 06:46 AM

If you haven't noticed people in the US are FAT. Meaning they in general have MORE than they need. People is ISrael are extremely patriotic, which is why they won a war in 6 days. People in these ****ries have the right to what we call "the pursuit of happiness". If this is you idea of a victory over us, I wish you many more.

Do you really think your serving your people by learning and then spreading all this nonsense? have a bake sale to buy poor iranians air conditioners or something. Giv them something they can USE. It's been several decades and you conspiracy theorists have gotten NO WHERE. LIke terrorism (to which it is inextricably linked) it has, if anything, made things worse for the very people you claim t defend.

Newb

01-16-2005, 06:52 PM

Originally posted by jun_erh
If you haven't noticed people in the US are FAT. Meaning they in general have MORE than they need. People is ISrael are extremely patriotic, which is why they won a war in 6 days. People in these ****ries have the right to what we call "the pursuit of happiness". If this is you idea of a victory over us, I wish you many more.

Do you really think your serving your people by learning and then spreading all this nonsense? have a bake sale to buy poor iranians air conditioners or something. Giv them something they can USE. It's been several decades and you conspiracy theorists have gotten NO WHERE. LIke terrorism (to which it is inextricably linked) it has, if anything, made things worse for the very people you claim t defend.

You totally skipped the fact that Islamic terrorism (Or jewish terrorism, and yes there are some VERY NASTY Jewish terrorist who are sadistic to Palestanians) cannot sustain itself WITHOUT BACKING FROM THE PEOPLE WHO CREATED, THE US AND BRITISH. Over $600 Billion dollars of drug money laundered in Britain. Billions of dollars of Drug money laundered in the USA. For Gods sake, the Chechnian terrorists have their HQ in Washington DC. ALmost every single islamic terrorist organizaiton is centered in London.

I will NOT have a stupid bake sale to help Iranians, that will not solve anything. Don't sit there and support a US and Britain backed war in Iran that killed people I knew personally that I lived through, and then tell me to 'go have a bake sale'. Have at least a speck of respect. You don't know how silly you sound when you say 'go have a bake sale' to help the Iranians. If I had hundreds of millions of dollars, I would invest that money in running for office to change the system so we don't live in a system where we are addicted to living off the 3rd world, and let bankers run our politicans with money. The point is that very rich people in the US and mainly Britain are obsessed over other nations resources. They as written in policy, wish to keep the population of those nations backwards and in a state of warfare, which makes looting their resources and population easier. This is AGAINST Liebnizs Persuit of Happiness.

I have read Liebnizes Essays of New Human Understanding where he introduces this idea and it's different than what you are thinking. Liebniz, the great philosopher and inventor, stated that the persuit of happiness is being able to be fully creative to make other scientific and great discoveries to help people. Children in the 'colonies' and so fourth, do not have the freedom to study whatever they want to make life better.

Your problem is that you think Islamic Countries are the cause of terrorism, and other things such as it is the fault of the muslims why there is no peace in the middle east, and so fourth. These countries are under a constant state of economic looting by the financial powers that be, which pushed Terrorism down the throats of these people. All you have to do is follow the money. Hundreds of billions of dollars go to super rich bankers in london and wallstreet who use that money to create hundreds of trillions of dollars, yet your focused on 'achmed'. I am telling you right now that the USA is facing a horrible economic crash that they are trying to hide or prolong as long as possible. When FNMA or the housing bubble collapses, the dollar falls, or some other economic meltdown hits us, remember I told you before it happened. After it happens, and the bankers dictatorship moves to loot YOUR money and standard of living, when they try to get rid of minimum wage and workers rights, while your parents social security and so fourth are beling looted, you will get a feel of what these people have done to the middle east.

mortal

01-17-2005, 10:36 AM

Blah blah blah conspiricy, blah blah US government. Blah blah, blah. Blah blah nuke Iran. Blah blah blah neocon Bush supporters. Blah blah rich business men Blah.

Furthermore blah blah blah.

Am I to understand that YOU are Iranian?

I know you are an advocate of the face to face meeting. But if you called me a terrorist for supporting Bush I would knock you the **** out.

You are the terrorist! You pose a great rick to our country. Go live in Iran I certainly don't want you here. Guys like you feed the libs their daily dose of government conspiracy bull**** and put our country at risk.

Not every business man would kill to get ahead. We have a name for those people. Mafia.

Newb

01-17-2005, 10:46 AM

Originally posted by mortal

Am I to understand that YOU are Iranian?

I know you are an advocate of the face to face meeting. But if you called me a terrorist for supporting Bush I would knock you the **** out.

Now imagine what I go through daily by people like Red5 who keep refering to me as a terrorist. Am I justified like you to 'konck them out', or only you can do that since I am Iranian and therefore, it's ok for me to be scapegoated as a 'terrorist'? Also, I never called you a terrorist, and it's stupid to do so. I was merely showing Red5Angel the problem with his argument. He argued I was a terrorist, and I tried explaining that my solutions to the problems would develop the land, promote economic co-development; and his policies so far have killed over a hundred thousand innocent civilians, and many US service men. Therefore, the policies he support are 'terror' policies, not mine. I feel my point was made adequately.

You are the terrorist! You pose a great rick to our country.

See what I mean? I never called you a terrorist, you have no reason to call me a terrorist, but fall into a hysterical shrill stating that I pose a great risk to your country (as I'm sure Germans also equally wrongly felt that Jews were a great risk to their country in 1933). The hypocracy, ignorance, and fear is amazing!!

Go live in Iran I certainly don't want you here.

I am an American citizen and will not desert the mission of great people such as Benjamin Franklin, Alexander Hamilton, Abraham Lincoln, Henry Carey, FDR, and other great leaders. Once this economic crash hits us full force and you have no idea what is going on, you will be alot more tolerable to people who have told you the truth before it happened.

Guys like you feed the libs their daily dose of government conspiracy bull**** and put our country at risk.

I am the one with the conspiracy theory? What happened to Weapons of Mass Distruction? The fact is simple. What i have stated is open to search on the public records. Britain continues to be the BIGGEST sponsor of internaitonal terrorism, with $600 Billion dollars of dope money laundered in Britain by US govt. estimates.

Not every business man would kill to get ahead. We have a name for those people. Mafia.

Or in this case, George Bushes buddy, Ken Lay of Enron who killed old people who couldn't afford Air Conditioning in the desert, and "Social Security Privatization'".

mortal

01-17-2005, 10:52 AM

Those old people you are referring to probably never did jack with their lives and now they are old and broke.

Why should the rest of us have to take care of them now?

I could care less about social security because this country is so great that if you want it you get it. I make good money becasue I made my self useful to society. If you don't make yourself useful you die old and broke. Seems fair to me.

I'll call you what ever I want to your face. If you swung at me I would knock you out. As a matter of fact I have knocked out peace protesters before. So it wouldn't be the first time.

Newb

01-17-2005, 10:56 AM

Originally posted by mortal
Those old people you are referring to probably never did jack with their lives and now they are old and broke.

Why should the rest of us have to take care of them now?

I could care less about social security because this country is so great that if you want it you get it. I make good money becasue I made my self useful to society. If you don't make yourself useful you die old and broke. Seems fair to me.
Those 'old useless eaters' (nazi philosophy) have invested their entire lives into the social security fund, it's their money, they worked for it. Just becuase George Bushes buddies in Wallstreet are almost broke and need a quick Trillion dollars, doesn't make it right.

I'll call you what ever I want to your face. If you swung at me I would knock you out. As a matter of fact I have knocked out peace protesters before. So it wouldn't be the first time.

That wasn't your argument a few posts up. You said you would attack me if I merely called you a 'terrorist' (something you've done to me in this entire thread), not if I swung at you (obviously you would defend yourself if someone swung at you, duh).

mortal

01-17-2005, 11:38 AM

Newb

I have an idea. Forget about politics. Go enroll at a reputable kungfu school. Train hard for a couple of years. Go back to Iran. Talk **** about their peice of **** truly corrupt government. Then fight off the gaurds when they come to your house.

Newb

01-17-2005, 11:41 AM

Originally posted by mortal
Newb

I have an idea. Forget about politics. Go enroll at a reputable kungfu school. Train hard for a couple of years. Go back to Iran. Talk **** about their peice of **** truly corrupt government. Then fight off the gaurds when they come to your house.

Mortal, I love you. However, the ideas you are spreading are a exact copy of the ideas that led to Fascism. It's easy to bring some of this out, let me ask you this. What do you think is the difference between humans and animals?

mortal

01-18-2005, 12:56 PM

Intelligence.

jun_erh

01-18-2005, 02:40 PM

the shah was a tyrant.

Newb

01-18-2005, 02:56 PM

What do you think is the difference between humans and animals?

Originally posted by mortal
Intelligence.

Ok, but what do you mean by that?

mortal

01-18-2005, 03:59 PM

We are smart and they are not.

Newb

01-18-2005, 04:02 PM

How about the fact that human beings can discover an idea that they can communicate to other human beings. For example, let's take the case of Benjamin Franklin and the discovery of electricity. It is an unseen principle in the universe, a squirrel or a monkey could never understand how it works then communicate it to other monkeys. Sure animals do some amazing things, such as the ants who cut leaves and use them to float across the river, however that is no different than what their great great great great grandfathers did. They learn nothing new. Therefore, we can agree that this is the difference between man and animal?

mortal

01-18-2005, 04:18 PM

"How about the fact that human beings can discover an idea that they can communicate to other human beings."

You can't negotiate with terrorists.

True they can learn nothing new. Agreed.

Newb

01-18-2005, 04:25 PM

Originally posted by mortal
"How about the fact that human beings can discover an idea that they can communicate to other human beings."

You can't negotiate with terrorists.

True they can learn nothing new. Agreed.

So wait, I want to make sure I understand your point. You can communicate and discover or teach new ideas, as long as they are not terrorists. Terrorists do not have this capability. Correct?

mortal

01-18-2005, 04:29 PM

They have no honor. It is liking having a debate with someone who smiles and says yes then stabs you in the back when you walk away. They have been doing that to democratic presidents for years. Jimmy Carter(moron) for example. The Iranians walked all over him for years.

mortal

01-18-2005, 04:30 PM

Terrorists are animals for purposely targeting civilians.

Do you think it is OK for these animals to target civilians?

Newb

01-18-2005, 04:48 PM

Originally posted by mortal
They have no honor. It is liking having a debate with someone who smiles and says yes then stabs you in the back when you walk away. They have been doing that to democratic presidents for years. Jimmy Carter(moron) for example. The Iranians walked all over him for years.

Well we both agree that Jimmy Carter was an absolute moron with a demonstrated IQ less than the peanuts he farmed. However, the policies of Jimmy Carter were an extension of his Secratery of State, Zbignew Brzezinski. Carter introduced many new economic policies that led nations to ruin, and distroyed the constituionally required protectionism measures to defend nations from looting. He deregulated many things, and with the work Nixon did previously, changed the entire system of economics away from FDRs policies. As a result, these other nations have been driven into despair and poverty, with no way out unless the economic policies of the US changes. At that point, when the people see that they have no way out unless the US changes, and will die anyways, then recruit themselves as suicide bombers.

But I still have to ask you to answer my initial question a bit more clearer. When you said:

Originally posted by mortal
"How about the fact that human beings can discover an idea that they can communicate to other human beings."

You can't negotiate with terrorists.

True they can learn nothing new. Agreed.

Are you stating that terrorists then, do lack this defining difference between 'humans' and 'animals'?

mortal

01-18-2005, 05:04 PM

Yes.

But at the same time they can't be negotiated with. They sure is hell can't be trusted.

Now answer my question.

Do you think it is ok for terrorists to target civilians yes or no?

Newb

01-18-2005, 05:09 PM

Originally posted by mortal
Yes.

But at the same time they can't be negotiated with. They sure is hell can't be trusted.

Now answer my question.

Allright then, so if Terrorists lack the basic thing that seperates Humans from Animals, do you view them as animals? Do they get the same rights as animals?

Do you think it is ok for terrorists to target civilians yes or no?

No, of course not. here is my 2nd quesiton for you:

Do you think it is ok for bankers to have policies that work to put the population in a never ending debt cycle so you can easily loot their resources?

mortal

01-18-2005, 05:20 PM

I am a mortgage banker. Do you think I am in bed with all the bankers in the world.

You make blanket statements about people and situations. If you borrow money you have to pay it back, with interest. Are you saying because banks collect interest they are opressing people?

When my relatives came to live in the U.S. they suffered and were pimped out in every direction. So is the case with anyone who is new to democracy. Then after a while you build a nestegg if you work hard. With some effort your children will go to college. At that point they will be offered better oppurtunity's. Then if they work hard they will live the good life one day based off of their parents efforts combined with theirs. You can't just get a person with no skills and pay them the big bucks. You have to have dveloped skills and talent.

mortal

01-18-2005, 05:21 PM

"Allright then, so if Terrorists lack the basic thing that seperates Humans from Animals, do you view them as animals? Do they get the same rights as animals?"

In my opinion they have no rights at all. They offer no quarter and shouldn't be given any.

Newb

01-18-2005, 05:49 PM

Originally posted by mortal
I am a mortgage banker. Do you think I am in bed with all the bankers in the world.

You make blanket statements about people and situations. If you borrow money you have to pay it back, with interest. Are you saying because banks collect interest they are opressing people?

Absolutely not, I am talking about Predatory Lending. FDR and other leaders had to pass laws which regulated the mortgage industry. For example, you today are allowed to only charge 6% in closing cost fees to your customer. You simply cannot walk all over the customer and have a hayday of 15% in fees (tho that would sound nice on that $1,000,000 refi, doesn't it?). You are also limited in what you can do if the customer defaults on your loan. You personaly, don't care if they default really. You already collected your fees on the loan. Fannie Mae cares if they default on their loan. When I say banker, think more along the lines of Fannie Mae, JP Morgan, HCSB, Royal Bank of England, and so fourth.

Now let me give you an example of unregulated hog wild looting done by the financial establishment through the IMF. Let's take the case of Brazil. Brazil in the 1980s borrowed several billion dollars, around $80 billion total. They have paid back $180 Billion dollars, and still owe $380 billion dollars on that initial debt. This is complete "Loan Shark" swindle ran through the IMF onto countries. Brazil was in a way 'setup'. Their population now has to get less health care, education, and thus become less independant. They now work cheap, to export their minerals to the USA. At this point, since they give us cheap goods, the USA has deindustrialized. We do not produce the goods we used to, and rely on other countries to provide us with cheap goods. We have lost our manufacturing base, which is very important for a developing physical economy. Let me provide an animation to make my point clearer:

Free Trade Means Slave Labor:
What's Behind the Immigration Crisis
http://asx.ljcentral.net/wms/eir/animations/2004/041208_mexico_en_hi.asx

mortal

01-19-2005, 11:00 AM

I love when people talk of predatory lending. You know who we charge huge fees when we do a loan? Dead beats. People who are late on their mortgage. People who don't borrow in good faith. They SHOULD PAY. If they would have handled their finances correctly they wouldn't be were they are.

It is the same thing with Brazil. What is in it for a bank to lend money to someone they comsider risky. Well maybe if we charge them a higher ineterst rate it will help persuade us to lend this questinable borrower money. See the connection. Maybe if they default we will get back enough of our money to make it worth it.

Getting a loan doesn't mean free money hotline. It means it will take years to pay back. In those years the lender could have used that money to make their lives better.

You liberals are always looking fdor a handout.

The law is 5 percent limit on fees and that is state specific. Not all states have this law. I just closed a $17,000 deal, on a $400,000 house, that took three months to get done because the guy had awful credit. But it saved him from foreclosure and got rid of $100,000 in credit card debt. Why shouldn't I get paid handsomely on that deal. It was like a miracle that it even got done. He should have had a better sytem for handling his income and debt from the begininng. It would be easy for me to rack up $100,000 in credit card debt. I am smart enough to know I will never in my life pay it off.

Newb

01-19-2005, 11:12 AM

These other 'ethnic' people who owe this *unpayable and unfair debt, which they've already paid back several times over with intrest, are not stupid and cannot simply manage their debt. They have been taken advantage of, with financeers that have not acted in good faith.

By your defination of a 'liberal', then Alexander Hamilton too, is a Liberal. What happens to Brazil and other '3rd world countries' is usury. They are taken advantage of by predatory lenders who then uses the debt to extract less than minimum wage jobs from the population, and cheap access to their resources.

Furthermore, don't tell me that mortgage brokers, lenders, and loan officers don't love to charge as many points as legally possible. The only the vast majority of mortgage brokers in the USA charge as much as they possibly can. If they charge lower it's either to beat out someone else, or it's because of special circumstance (such as friends, family, 'favor', etc). If the Predatory Lending laws didn't stop you guys from charging a maximum of 6%, there would be nothing stopping the mortgage industry from charging that client as much as they possibly can. This isn't a huge deal in mortgage banking. Seeing how you have tons of companies to choose from, there is high competition. In something like Energy or Health Care however, there is even more regulation needed. People do not die if they can't buy or refinance a house. People DID die in the Cali Energy Hoax ran by Enron which raised electricity prices over 500 times (from 33 mwatt/hr to 4900 mwatt/hr) and old people who couldn't afford AC in the desert, died. It was horrible. Ken Lay doesn't care how many people die as long as he gets max profit, the IMF over the past 25 years has acted the same way. It has became a tool to loot nations, not to help them develop or offer them loans in good faith.

mortal

01-19-2005, 11:19 AM

People with good credit aren't charged 6 percent. Also you ignored the fact that that law is state specific. And said it like it was fact again.

When did I ever say I don't charge as much as possible?
Did you ever work on a loan for a dead beat? They are hard to get done and we as mortgage pros have the right to charge for our time. Many times the loans just die after we have put a ton of effort into it.

Have you ever seen an amortization schedule on a regular home mortgage?

You libs are all the same. Talk talk talk ask loaded questions then don't listen to the answers. Just like Boxer(another moron) questioning Condoleeza. She asked ten minutes worth of questions and then didn't listen to the answers.

I am done with this thread.

I wish you luck.

Take care.

Newb

01-19-2005, 02:28 PM

Originally posted by mortal
[B]People with good credit aren't charged 6 percent. Also you ignored the fact that that law is state specific. And said it like it was fact again.

When did I ever say I don't charge as much as possible?
Did you ever work on a loan for a dead beat? They are hard to get done and we as mortgage pros have the right to charge for our time. Many times the loans just die after we have put a ton of effort into it.

Have you ever seen an amortization schedule on a regular home mortgage?

My answer to all 3 is yes. There is no 'big deal' about a amortization schedule. it's just a big long form which shows how much your monthly payment is. It also breaks down the intrest rate, principle rate, LTV ratio, and so on for the borrower. It doesn't take *any* training over 20 minutes to fully understand it. A high school student can be paid $6 an hour and show people how to break down the Amort Sched. The better optoin would be just to look at the Reg-Z.

My point remains valid, people will rip other people off if they can. This is why Predatory Lending laws were introduced, to make it harder to rip people off. Mortgage Brokers will still charge the full amount of fees they possibly can on the Good Faith Estimate form, no matter on the borrowers credit. The credit does not affect you the loan officer, or mortgage brokers fees. The only reason it would, was if you needed an excuse as to why you are charging such outlandishly high charges.

Good luck on your refis. I'm not player hating you. =P

/edit
Actually I'd have to say I could train someone to fully understand how to read the Amortization Schedule withen 5 minutes, not 20.