Fu jow pai kicks vs. tae kwon do kicks.

[phantom]

What are the differences between the kicks of fu jow pai and tae kwon do? What advantages does fu jow pai's have over tae kwon do's? Thanks in advance.

[David Jamieson]

dunno bout the fjp guys, but in the black tiger i know, kicks are not above the waist, many are to the lower joints, knees that is, much of the bt style concentrates on making a bridge, crossing it and striking hard to the head and upper body.

tkd and bt compare like apples and rivets. They are utterly and totally different in scope.

[jmd161]

Hmmmm

Don't know much about Fu Jow Pai ,but i'd tend to agree with Kung Lek on this one. I can't see how Fu Jow Pai's and TKD's kicks could have anything in common.

Although we do practice high kicks within our lineage of Black Tiger rarely if ever do we kick above the waist.

One advantage would be that lower kicks are much easier to conceal ,and have a better chance of landing.


jeff:)

[X-Warrior]

Much of the answer lies in the history of the arts. Generally most Chinese arts are designed for self defense and the ability to use these skills at older age, thus the rare use of high kicks. Teakwon Do is a fighting sport that is practiced by younger people who are yet fit to execute these high kicks. The system is derived from the old military systems Subak, Kwon Pup, which in the Yi dinasty carried the name Teakwon. The military also mostly used young men for the physical hand to hand combat, thus the use of high kicks here were integrated as efficient technuques.

In the 1940s Choi Hong Hi created Teakwon Do, a contact sport that kept the characteristics of these old military arts.

-X-

[jimbob]

I was reading an interview with one of the Dog Brothers who used to be a student of Paul Vizzio - a Fu Jow fighter who had made a name for himself in early "no rules" fights as well as I thinnk the PKA kickboxing association.

Anyway - I thought it was interesting that Vizzio had recommended his student find a good taekwondo teacher to improve his kicking (I can't remember what the context was that he said this in though).

BTW X Warrior - if you look closely at Taekwondo - especially at its early incarnations, the emphasis wasn't so much on high kicking. General Choi was a Shotokan practitioner - that's the real root of modern TKD.

:)

[X-Warrior]

That's interesting JimBob, I got my information from a martial arts history book. The book actually doesn't mention what Choi Hong Hi practiced, it says studying the old Korean military arts he tried to keep the old characteristics and create a modern combat sport that fit to todays times. The book also talks about the old arts and mentions that the use of high kicks were common and the Koreans especially were famous for their jumping kicks to kick enemy soldiers off of their horses. Thus the so frequent use of jump kicks in TWD.

I will search the net more and see what others has to say about it, my information was from one book only. I also would like to know what others have on this subject.

-X-

[X-Warrior]

Opps forgot to add: both could be true, he could have used his Shotokan experiences as well as studying the old Korean arts and integrated the two to create TKD.

BTW I'm green belt in Shotokan :).

-X-

[X-Warrior]

It's me again ... sorry. Looks like we are both right just like I thought, here is a coat from his bio:

'After his expulsion, young Choi’s father sent him to study calligraphy under one of the most famous teachers in Korea, Mr. Han II Dong. Han, in addition to his skills as a calligrapher, was also a master of Taek Kyon, the ancient Korean art of foot fighting. The teacher, concerned over the frail condition of his new student, began teaching him the rigorous exercises of Taek Kyon to help build up his body.

...

In Kyoto, Choi met a fellow Korean, Mr. Him, who was engaged in teaching the Japanese martial art, Karate. With two years of concentrated training, Choi attained the rank of first degree black belt. These techniques, together with Taek Kyon (foot techniques), were the forerunners of modern Taekwon-Do.'

Full bio: http://www.itf-information.com/information02.htm

-X-

[phantom]

X-warrior, I have to disagree with you about Tae Kwon Do being just for younger people. There are women who started training in it in their 80's, one even was 89. Granted, they may not be able to kick as high as younger people, but they have a strong will to learn. I also read about an 83 year old karate guy who could still jump kick. Now, if you meant that tae kwon do is more suitable for younger people, then I apologize. I just wanted to make it clear that while it may be difficult for an older person to learn TKD, it certainly is not impossible. Peace.

[X-Warrior]

No no phantom, TKD will improve anyone physicaly and mentally, young or old, man or woman, no question about it, that is not what I tried to get across with my message. I was talking more about history, the sixteenth and seventeenth century, not starting merely back a few decades.

TKD was partially founded from these ancient military arts that were designed for the military men in mind. Young men were proven to perform best with hand to hand combats and the military arts were refined throughout the centuries. They were physically best fit for the military life, long travels on foot, handling weapons, carrying equipment and engaging in physical hand to hand combats.

You're right, today in the civilian practice (and with a few exceptions on military levels too) there are older generation practicing the art, however, it doesn't mean it is for everyone to engage in it on professional levels to fight anybody. Fights even today are categorized by age, gender and weight, and you almost never see categories mixed. The categories were actually created so that everyone can enjoy and go as far they can with their training within their own physical (and thanks to the newly created special sports, mental) abilities. Doesn't mean cross competitions would do good for most, it would actually damage many peoples advancements and improvements.

Also most arts today are categorized by whom you are teaching. I'm myself an instructor (not TKD, although I have learned it for a while) and I also teach all arts differently according to what people want to learn. Most people are interested in civilian self defense, some on sports levels but many freak out when I go a little too far and I begin showing military techniques to civilians (cutting arteries, hands and arms off, stabbing the knife in the eyes or to different organs, or the like). A lot of people will gross out from these techniques, but this is what you learn on military levels. These techniques are the most effective and the fastest way to take a person down doesn't mean everyone is interested in them. By far the most who are learning these techniques even today are still young men from the military.

Most TKD (and other martial arts schools) concentrate on civilian defense, sport or health improvement and everyone can benefit from these, however only a few consider any martial arts today for military training but like I said by far the most who do are still young men.

-X-

[jimbob]

X-Warrior

Don't be surprised if a Korean doesn't seem particularly keen to acknowledge any Japanese influence on their "national" art. Try and find some older ITF ("original" TKD) footage. Their forms are Shotokan forms.

BTW - have you ever seen taekyon? My brother lived in Korea for a few years and showed me video footage he'd taken. Most of what I saw looked a lot like hackey sack and the kicking was predominantly low line with a few mid line kicks thrown in. In fact - the low kicks were quite savate like in their delivery (not that I know much about savate). I'm not sure what type of taekyon my brother had got to see - but it always made me wonder if taekwondo truly came from that, where are all the high kicks from?

Taekwondo is very recent art and there is a lot of controversy about it's origins. Sure it has gone it's own way now, but way back when I'm not sure how much indigenous stuff the Koreans had to draw from. Even Tang Soo Do - "The Way of the Tang Hand" - I mean, from that description you'd expect it to look pretty Chinese wouldn't you? It looks like karate to me.

:confused:

[cerebus]

Actually, ITF forms are not the same as Shotokan. However almost all the techniques in the forms ARE identical to Shotokan, just in a very different order.

Tang Soo Do forms are almost exactly the same as Shotokan forms except the kicks are done higher.

[jimbob]

Hi Cerebus

Thanks for clarifying that. I'll be the first to admit to an underwhelming knowledge of taekwondo forms. But if, as you say, the techniques are the same but the order is different, it just indicates to me that the techniques are Shotokan techniques. Either they were rearranged to add some "ownership" to them by the re-arranger, or the forms just weren't learned properly. Nothing wrong with that, BTW - I'm sure many of the systems we practice have forms in them that weren't learned properly.

The thing that jhas always puzzled me about TKD is this. If you look at a Choy Lay Fut form, and then a CLF person fighting - you can see the signatures of the style in the fighting movement. Maybe not as pretty, but there all the same. If you look at a Shotokan kata, and then at a Shotokan fighter, you can see the signatures of the style in the movement. If you were to look at a TKD form and then a TKD fighter, there just doesn't seem to be a lot of correspondence between the two.

I even put this to a friend of mine - a sparring buddy who is a 4th Dan WTF guy and former Scottish representative. He had no clue at all. I figured, being WTF, he'd probably moved away from the more traditional side of things - but he couldn't find anyone he knew to tell me either.

Curiouser and curiouser....

BTW - can anyone tell me why my post count is so low? I've been a member here since 1997. I don't say much but I know I have more than 20 something posts!:confused:

[X-Warrior]

Jimbob, thanks for the feedback. I hold a green belt in Shotokan - under one of Master Takayama's students, Master Takayama being one of the most famous students of Gichin Funakoshi (sorry, just had to brag here a little ;), but honestly I don't know anything about and have never seen any of the TKD forms :(. I'd love to see them and compare. Anyone has any links with TKD form videos?

I have seen some of the TKD techniques and had an black belt friend who thaught me a few and I agree they are almost identical to any Karate styles (I also studied Kyokushin and ****o Ryu Karate). The history I mentioned I've read in a MA history book. The book talked about the reason the old Korean arts contained so many high and jump kicks is because Korea being a mountainous region and the soldiers often had to jump from rock to rock, or jump from rocks to kick enemy soldiers off their horses. Thus the frequent use of high/jump kicks in the old military arts. The book therefore said that TKD tried to preserve the characteristics of these old military arts and techniques and I do have to agree that TKD does emphesizes these more than any japanese, matter of fact any MA styles. I have unfortunately also never seen any of these old military arts, would love to if anyone has a link to any of these as well.

Are you a TKD practitioner? Where did you get your information on the origin of TKD? This is a great discussion thanks for all the feedbacks.

-X-

[jimbob]

No mate - not a TKD person. Did CLF for many many years - then I got old and crusty! I competed in some full contact tournaments in the Philippines and Malaysia in the late 80's early 90's to see how much I really knew. Fought a TKD guy at one of them who left me a scar above my eye (I left him a trip to the local hospial in return though, so it all evens out!). I came back and began training in tai chi in about 1991, but I still like to keep up with the buzz. My friend I mentioned was very highly regared in UK taekwondo circles around the time I was in SE Asia - he and I used to spar regularly until he moved back there a couple of years back. Just seeing how well the body was still working.

A lot of my knowledge comes from my friend the historian Pat McCarthy. I met Patrick in the mid 90's when he moved to Australia and have been friends with him ever since, training with him and his students on occasion. He is a brilliant fellow and has opened my eyes to so much. If you ever get a chance to attend one of his seminars, you should move heaven and earth to get there. He's usually in the US in the middle of the year. Other stuff I pick up because I'm just naturally curious and like to ask questions, then I go away and research for myself to see what fits and what doesn't.

:)

[rogue]

ITF is the Korean take on Shotokan. Nothing else. The many kicks in TKD were being done for years by one of the original Shotokan lineages. These days WTF TKD has little to do with either ITF or Shotokan and is it's own animal. Why they even bother with forms still eludes me.

[David Jamieson]

i did tkd for 4 years back in the 80's. While it has become decidely sportive in scope, it is a rigorous form of exercise and a decent martial art that anyone of any age can do and is for the most part readily available to learn in pretty much any place in the world.

The focus is legs, legs and legs. Did I mention the focus is legs?
It will burn your legs to dust then build them up to stone. Don't sell it or any other martial art short, such as shotokan. A practitioner of any MA that is mindful and with intent will prove to be a formidable opponent.

And that's the truth. :D

[rogue]

Remove those chest protectors that the WTF guys use and add some takedowns and you might see some more hands. Olympic TKD is something. I wouldn't do it but I can appreciate.

[draggin dragon]

Taekwondo kicks are decidedly different in their mechanics than your standard KF kicks. The reason given to study TKD to improve your kicking ability is simply that they drill & practice kicking so much that it improves skills that can be translated to ANY style of kicking...namely balance, targeting, focus, and power/weight transfer + development of flexibility & leg strength.