Chee and Chong . Qi and Ch'an

[yellowpikachu]

Qi is not everything in one's body .
it is not that something exist but cannot be known or even describe.
It is can be feel if one is train to raise the one's sentitivity.
It can be group so that it present a stronger signal to be notice.
It can be be direct to smooth the stomach ache...
it is weaken when you tense your muscle while stress.


Ch'an is not everything in martial art.
Ch'an grow one's awareness.
Ch'an let one aware of the components of minds
Ch'an let one live in NOW.
Ch'an is not qouting what others said to make things mysterious but telling nothing.



Qi is not everything Ch'an is not everything. Until one knows they are not everything. One doesnt know Qi one doesnt know Chan.
one might read, think, and talk about Qi and Ch'an.


Chee and Chong is a great partner! :D

[anerlich]

Chee and Chong is a great partner

Yeah, I particularly liked the skit where they hid all their buddies in the boot trying to get into the drive-in and then forget about them.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Cheech and Chong, heh?

Those guys used to smoke a lot of weed in their day.

Bought it from Hendrik?

I mean...Phenix?

No...No...yellowpikachu?

You know...if he keep's changing his name - the narcs will have a hard time finding him.

In fact...I heard he's been he's been hiding in the 16th century.





........and re-writing it.

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Cheech and Chong, heh?

Those guys used to smoke a lot of weed in their day.

Bought it from Hendrik?

I mean...Phenix?

No...No...yellowpikachu?

You know...if he keep's changing his name - the narcs will have a hard time finding him.

In fact...I heard he's been he's been hiding in the 16th century.





........and re-writing it.


Thus, I have heard in the Buddhist Scripture.
Ultimate and forever is scary. those who lives in hell doesnt have a chance to change their identity but enjoy the never ending ultimate suffering forever.

Chee and Chong are better then Living in the Ultimate or Forever! :D

[t_niehoff]

I wonder what we'd think of folks that used the "humour"-theory of prescientific western medicine as a foundation of their martial art? Ah, but if it comes from China, from the mysterious orient, it is a different matter.

Can one use "chi" or internal power to throw a ball? No, but somehow we can use it to throw a punch.

When magical thinking is a common mode to approaching the martial arts, is it any wonder that people never develop any genuine fighting skills?

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
I wonder what we'd think of folks that used the "humour"-theory of prescientific western medicine as a foundation of their martial art?

Ah, but if it comes from China, from the mysterious orient, it is a different matter.

Can one use "chi" or internal power to throw a ball? No, but somehow we can use it to throw a punch.

When magical thinking is a common mode to approaching the martial arts, is it any wonder that people never develop any genuine fighting skills?



Great!
you must be that master who knows all the Truth! :D

Why study Chinese martial art?

[t_niehoff]

Hendrik.

There is a difference between knowing "the truth" and having critical thinking skills, which are a means to examine and find "the truth." I understand that traditional cultures discourage critical thinking because it undermines the fabric of that culture (believe what you are told), but there is no other way to make progress. If the accepted, traditional view is "the truth", then critical thinking will confirm it; if it is not "the truth", then critical thinking will expose it for what it is.

You ask "why practice a chinese martial art?" I'm not doing that to preserve chinese culture, or preserve an ancient chinese cosmology, etc. -- I'm practicing WCK to increase my fighting performance. Preserving all those things is great, and if someone wants to do that, I wish them all the luck. But we should not confuse the two (the fighting method and the cultural baggage).

Our knowledge has grown -- just as we no longer rely on "humours" to explain disease, we don't need to rely on chi to explain body mechanics.

[ZIM]

Originally posted by yellowpikachu

Ch'an is not qouting what others said to make things mysterious but telling nothing.

"Hypothesis: The self evolved as a competitive display device, a way of showing off to look big among other men and to show off for the ladies. It is the way a being capable of symbol and abstraction erected his own equivalent to the guppy's coloration, the pea****'s tail, and the songbird's song. Females needed self as well-to attract males and to compete for position in the group hierarchy. Language, narrative, and other forms of braggadocio evolved because of the evolution of self, in tandem with self, or before self. We don't know. But all evolved, I propose, as a package deal with the self tying the bow around the center."
-Howard Bloom (http://bigbangtango.net/website/G-U-T/Directory.htm)
:D :D

[yellowpikachu]

There is a difference between knowing "the truth" and having critical thinking skills, --------------

sure.




which are a means to examine and find "the truth." ----------


how many judges find the "truth" with thier critical thinking skills alone? without investigation, collecting data, but just sit there and think?




I understand that traditional cultures discourage critical thinking-------------


This is a generalization statement which misleading others.

ZEN tradition encourage Critical thinking and suspect on everything other tell one.

As it said "
little suspect and examination lead to little enligtenment. large suspect with examination lead one to large enligtenment.





because it undermines the fabric of that culture (believe what you are told), but there is no other way to make progress. ---------

From the above generalization statement, certainly, it leads to this conclusion.

However, that is not going to apply to ZEN tradition, but reflex that your thinking pattern is a "critical " thinking by name but which is really a bias thinking based which is not critical at all.

Thus, this type of thinking will not capable to " examine and find "the truth."


why so? Zen Tradition is a teaching of AWARENESS. your statement is based on un awareness but generalization.






If the accepted, traditional view is "the truth", then critical thinking will confirm it; if it is not "the truth", then critical thinking will expose it for what it is. -------------


as above, your type of thinking whatever you called it will not find the truth because this type of thinking pattern is lack of awareness but a mechanical thinking pattern serving one's personal consciousness which has pre-judge to conclude what is the truth.




You ask "why practice a chinese martial art?" I'm not doing that to preserve chinese culture, or preserve an ancient chinese cosmology, etc. -- I'm practicing WCK to increase my fighting performance. ----------



you are in contradiction here.

WCK is a part of Chinese Culture.

WCK is based on Chinese way of vison, Thinking, strategy, conditioning, chi sau.. Qi... ect even the Term TAN SAU is chinese.

BTW the Yee Jee Kam Yong ma itself is a big chinese culture which involve Qi and Cosmology model. The Yong and Yang is very chinese. :D

So, are your doing WCK or you are doing something else?







Preserving all those things is great, and if someone wants to do that, I wish them all the luck. But we should not confuse the two (the fighting method and the cultural baggage). -------------


As above, you are repeating your generalization thinking pattern again. Do you do SNT? What is SNT about? fighting method ? culture baggage? So the question is who much of SNT training yield the fighting effectiveness? otherwise, doing some silly move standing there is a biggest cultural baggage, isnt it? Bruce Lee trying to get rid of it.






Our knowledge has grown -- just as we no longer rely on "humours" to explain disease, we don't need to rely on chi to explain body mechanics. ---------------


Who is our? certainly it will not include me. :D

Chi , prana, has become another components to be monitor in modern scince about human's mind/body integration disregard of lots of people who reject them for different reasons without bases.


Grown is about vast. Grown is not about stuck in one's unawareness spining thoughts pattern.

That type of unawareness spinning thoughts pattern is exactly the type of rigid thinking pattern of some chinese in 1800's when the Japanese Meji emperor has order a new Integration to integrate the japanese and the western new great achivement to build a new japan; while some Qing/chinese still believe in ---I am the oldest, I am the best, I know it all.


To be honest, the thinking pattern you present above seems like replicate the Qing/Chinese or the 1900 while the country is spiral down ward but they keep believe --- those westerners dont know a thing and see our boxer can against the bullets, and they dont have a clue of thier own Chinese culture and they dont have a clue on what bullets can do.


So, the ULTIMATE BOXER ask for a fighting with all the western nations with a thougth of ---- as soon as they keep fighting their figthing skill get better and better and at last beat the westerners.

Sure, but history doesnt buy that, no matter how they fight, bullets are another paradigm they will not reach.



just some thought.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello all,


I know this is a sensative topic but I will try to jump in anyhow!

hehehe

T;

I'm practicing WCK to increase my fighting performance. Preserving all those things is great, and if someone wants to do that, I wish them all the luck. But we should not confuse the two (the fighting method and the cultural baggage).


This is the typical attitude of many and I also had this attitude until a few years ago so its still running thru my head and I will try to give some feedback!

First! An opinion!

I believe (note that I wrote "I") that any Kung Fu art or system needs to fully cultivate ones body. Everything from the mind to the tendons, sinews, breath, joints this or that. All systems teach the practitioner a way to recieve and send power (part of this is Body Mechanics) thru its methods. Yet! As we are people who enjoy results so much we tend to just think in terms of cheap or quick results versus spending a bit of quality training time to cultivate the body as the art wants you to and end up with the desired Ging of the art. Unfortuanately, 95% (no matter how good they fight) tend to like the Egg Shell but not the Yoke! I was like this. Lets face it! If it works then thats all that matters right? Well, not really when you are doing an learning an art or system IMO. Go ahead! Beat me up on that one!

Many say: What good is Chi going to do? Will it help me fight? Can I hit someone with Chi? etc. etc. etc.

As the breath is indeed part of any Kung Fu arts training I can say from my own experience that Cultivation of Chi (Hay) can be extremely beneficial to any martial artist! Why? Hmmmmm? In order for anyone to start cultivating Chi you must take your body thru some specific training. You cannot just get it from doing your forms or training unless you focus on the proper training. Once you have it then you notice a lot of stuff! For Chi to start cultivating you must have a decent posture and relaxation. The breath has to sink and the body has to relax! Yet! You can produce it thru the un-natural (Fire) methods of tensing and forcing etc but this is not WCK. When you have spent enough time adjusting your body, relaxing it, etc. etc. you will see how your aligment has improved and you become much more "AWARE" of your bodies alignment and relaxation. Indeed this transfers into your boxing. One can easily tell if someone has achieved the relaxed state of Sung just by watching them train or fight. Like I said: This transfers into your boxing!

All the great fighters of our time, and the past, have spent significant time training the internals. Be it Jam Jong or other methods or both. WCK begins with Siu Lin Tao set. The SLT set does not jump around or dance or 3 steps etc.. A clear indicator of the importance of scanning/training the body so that the Little details are mastered and then the big picture comes out better. So, is it so difficult to have to train for maybe a couple of years to open up your body and prepare it for fighting? In the process of all this you are still practicing WCK just like everyone else is so there will be no delay in basic application if you are training right. Remember, its how you train!

In the end we are training a Fighting Method and part of learning any Fighting Method is to develop the body for fighting. By training our Fighting Method properly we will not only increase our health (a healthy body is a good body for fighting) but we will increase our bodies methods, our awareness of the methods and also our Fighting Performance if they train properly.

None of this stuff is mystical. Its all real simple but unless we are willing to spend a little bit of time and hard work (Hard Work = Kung Fu) to give it a shot then please avoid discussing about somethign that you have not tried. I only say this because it is not vey difficult! Remember! I thought it was all BS and you can even see it in one of my articles where I wrote Noi Gong has nothign to do with Chi Gong. Well, I was partially wrong! Noi Gong training and Chi Gong training go hand in hand.

BUT! Lets leave the Noi Gong for another topic! Why? Because the feelings are the same for me! If you develop a bit of Noi Gong indeed it will help you fight better as your body is better developed for it so all you need to do is train it to be functional once you have it!

Lastly! I hope that this helps clear up the difference between Fighting Art/System and Cultural Baggage!


:rolleyes:


Gotta run!

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Here we go again.. Qi, Chi, Ki, etc.... It is just an ancient concept of modern KNOWLEDGE.. Qi is energy.. YES, you can throw or punch or fight with energy.. The energies that animate this body of chemicals and compounds are varied in origin and result but combine to add life to lifeless elements. These energies can be refined and trained to levels that to ancients and some current observers "seem" magical.. No big deal. Those that don't get it ridicule it.. those that do reap the benefits.. and, the heated dialogues will continue.. Oh well, it's just the way things "are"..

Be well..

[SPJ]

Ch'an or Zen is not critical thinking, judgement, or verify some facts.

Truth is something, every one will know and experience.

You may call it Dao.

Words are misleading. Words represents some experiences and knowledge.

Words are like clouds. They come and go. They may take many shapes.

Truth is universal and big.

[SPJ]

A rich merchant bought an elephant "Jade" from Thailand.

He asked his servants to wear a mask and "feel" the elephant.

A feels the trunk and said it is a hose.

B feels the the feet and said it is a tree.

C feels the body and said it is a wall.

D feels the tail and said it is a rope.

They are all correct. They are confused. How can one thing be so many things.

They removed the masks and said Oh.

This is the truth of the elephant.

[SPJ]

The truth of Qi.

The truth of Ch'an.

The truth of truth.

[semimoto]

i just wanted to thank all of you guys, im not even a newbee, i havent gotten ****her than wanna bee, but through the wisdom of some of you and the sarcasm of others, i have come to the conclusion that " thinking is highly overated and that anyone can write anything.