Martial Artists and Substances

[kyklos]

From my first-hand experience with other Martial Artists (Shaolin Monks and students at the temple i practice at) I get the feeling that any sort of substances either controlled or illegal (alcohol, ciggs, herb, etc. ) are highly Taboo.

Of course I realize that their mentallity is strongly dependant on traditional chinese values which of course heavily shun these things.

On the other hand there are many non-chinese that attend practice and I get the feeling that many of them are totally straight edge also.
So i wonder if its just the place I go to (An actual shaolin Temple) or just all martial artists in general and i'm an oddity.
So I have a question for all you Kung-fuers if your comfortable with it.

Who here does or does not Drink, smoke, trip.... whatever? and why?

I myself strongly believe in experiencing all that our short life has to offer. I also believe in moderation which comes from much first hand experience. I love martial arts and the benefits it affords me both physically and psycologically though as a human I am an animal of inherent contradiction. So i enjoy a casual drink or toke or trip. Though some things I don't do: ciggarettes(they make me vomit), anything made in a lab(its just not natural).

So my main reason for asking is to understand why it is so taboo.

Of course I realize that any substance abuse and practicing MA would be pointless but then again "abuse" is the key word. I've seen Olympic athletes smoking to calm their nerves before an event then breaking records on the track.

Many things that our "great" governments choose to outlaw and misinform us about have been used since ancient times for their medicinal benefits.

My yijinjing sifu has a favorite saying and here is an interesting excerpt from it:

Drinking dilutes the blood
smoking clouds the chi

Of course I don't question him because thats incredibly direspectful. But I can't help to think about it. Does it really effect us if we are just casual users? Or is it all psychological? or some of both? Think about it if that was actually true how would drunken form have ever come into existence if its so "bad" to drink? :confused:

[Royal Dragon]

I don't drink, smoke or do drugs in any way out side of the single shot of Jack daniels I have on a holiday, or RARE special occasion.

For me it's a life choice, and has nothing to do with Kung Fu.

[Vash]

I don't do jack. Personal choice.

I want to remember, and be personally responsible for, every dumb-ass, reprehensible, irresponsible thing I do.

[FngSaiYuk]

Dunno if you'd include it in your list, but I take herbs, vitamins and supplements of various types. Mostly 'cuz it's overly inconvenient to 'eat properly'.

Some of these are performance enhancement and others are purely to make sure my body is supplied with addequate nutrients.

As far as the more common substances - I avoid alcohol because I'm overly sensitive to the taste - I avoid smoke because I'm overly sensitive to the odor and smoke - I've never taken any recreational drugs because I haven't been simultaneously in the mindframe or situation to do so... and I tend to NOT be, so it's unlikely I'll ever do so.

None of this has to do with kungfu.

[Baji Brad]

I drink occasionally(once or twice a month). Moderate drinking once in awhile can actually be good for you... most of the skilled Chinese martial arts teachers I've met seem to like drinking and are no saints :P Some well known Chinese teachers were also opium addicts(which I think may have caused some lineage disputs and effected quality of teaching latter in life... just a guess though from someone who wouldn't know much about that kind of stuff). Many of the best systems were developed and contributed to by those who weren't exactly moraly superior individuals ;)

Moderation is key for some things(like drinking). If you have to get completely wasted every time you drink, you probably shouldn't be drinking. Some things(acid, cocaine, heroin, etc.) are just best not messed with at all because just a small amount your first time could mess you up forever. Of course familly history comes into play too... for example if there's alcoholics in your familly, it's probably a good idea to stay away from that too.

[l@zylee]

I haven't smoked for 3 years or so, and I drink far too much, I have made a kind of new years resolution to stop this, as others have said its nothing to do with my Kung Fu but a personal choice.


Of course I don't question him because thats incredibly direspectful. But I can't help to think about it.

I don't understand why you can't question your Sifu, I don't think its disrespectful at all, you should feel comfortable asking him to explain these things in more detail.

Cheers

Lee

[bung bo]

I quit smoking cigarettes 4 years ago and I will never start again. I can't stress enough how terrible they are. I don't get high anymore because it makes me lazy and kills my motivation, but I don't think pot is inherently bad. I drink beer ocasionally. I don't like to get really sauced, though. These are all lifestyle choices and not directly influenced by MA.

[Shaolinlueb]

i drink, my sifu drinks, his sifu's drink i dont look down on alchohal. smoking and other drugs i do. 3 out of 4 of my wushu coaches in hangzhou smoked cigs. but all the young kids looked down on it.

[GuSpeed]

does anyone know if pot affect your kung fu training beside being lazy and unmotivated? Does it actually have an affect on the kung fu skills itself?

[yenhoi]

its about how you get the pot into you.

that aside, like almost all things, "in moderation" its good for you.

;)

[bung bo]

i'd say it probably does have an effect on your ability. Marijuana lowers one's sperm count. According to TCM, each induvidual sperm is made of the best parts of each organ so you pass on the best of yourself (biologically speaking) when you make a baby. If this sperm is the best stuff from all the parts of your body and it is being killed, then that can't be good for your body.

Not to discredit pot. It has done wonders for pain relief in cancer victims among other things.

[Ai Lek Ou Seun]

IMO, alchohol is Ok in moderation.

In fact I think on some levels it can actually be good for you...thins the blood, relaxes you, pain reliever, etc..

Everything else you mentioned is too psychoactive to not impact your training on some level.

Marijuana and other psychoactives tend to have a negative impact on motivation.

Have a good stiff drink now and again and stay away from the other crap.

You'll be doing yourself a favor.

If you are looking to kick a habit or just a way to relax I suggest getting into meditation. It produces many of the good effects of drugs without the negative side effects.

Peace.



;)

[kyklos]

hey guys thanks for your input

in my own experience the whole myth about Marjuana lowering sperm count has about as much truth as Mountain Dew and yellow 5.

Unless your toking up like 6 times a day then i doubt it has much effect on your sperm count.

I pretty much knew what was going to happen but i did it anyway so i could actually feel it. So just as a test I smoked up about an hour before practice one day and lets just say thats not happening again. Coordination was waaaaaay down. But heck now I know and the best way to learn is through experience.

Actually since then I didnt smoke up for about 2 months until new years eve and I found no diffirence in my overall practice.That is, when i would usually smoke up which would be after practice before i sleep.

THC takes about a month to get thoroughly through the system (about a week for urine).

I find that like many "drugs" it has a lot to do with your mental well-being. If i get overly stressed then i might smoke up at nite to help me fall asleep a few times a week. But if i'm not stressed then I don't. Course I realize this is a quick fix to cover up some deeper problems but until I live in some pristine setting out in nature with the woman of my dreams lol, at the moment this is the greatest help.

As for alcohol I genereally agree with it being beneficial in frequent but small dosages. "Glass of wine a day keeps the doctor away" or some such.

When it comes to other things I've tried psyllosiben cubensis (shrooms) a couple of times but it only really effected me the first time. The whole hallucinatory thing was pretty interesting and an overall pleasurable experience but thats probably due to the type of people I was around which were generally very happy. I've had friends that have been traumatised because the poeple they were tripping with weren't the most "savory" characters. Personally the main thing about the trip apart from the predominance of patterns was the visual manifestations of character traits. Thats the best way i can describe it.

Personally I have no patience for meditation. I'm jealous of people that do have patience for it. I'm trying to work on that but its an arduous process. Ever since I can remember i've been very active and any amount of meditation I get is from practicing kung-fu.

[kyklos]

l@zylee

I find it strange also.

My roommate from Hong Kong told me that monks find it disrespectful to ask them questions about their teachings. I asked him why and he gave me this look like I fell from the sky or something and got all ****y like i was breaking some unwriten law. I just don't get it. If they are teaching us something wouldn't they want us to get the full grasp of it. I get the whole "they are guides" thing and I don't expect them to spell everything out but if i have a question i want to ask it dam* it. Anywho you can tell it's a bit frustrating.

Peace:)

[Samurai Jack]

Originally posted by kyklos

Personally I have no patience for meditation. I'm jealous of people that do have patience for it. I'm trying to work on that but its an arduous process.

What exactly are you doing to "work on it"? The best way is to sit and meditate even if you don't want to. That's when you really start seeing the benifit of PAYING ATTENTION. Drugs are about dulling the attention, and frankly, it's no surprise you preffer them to meditation. Meditation is not some wonderful airy-tripout, it's work, just like Kungfu.

All psychoactive drugs, "natural" or not, have an effect on your mind because they are toxic. Psylosybin causes excessive amounts of dopamine to flood the brain, thus burning out dopamine receptors and producers. Eventually brain function is permanently inhibited.

THC works by blocking seratonin receptors in your braincells for up to a month, again inhibiting brain function. Marijuana smoke is fifteen times more carcinogenic than cigarette smoke. THC removal can strain the liver. It is therefore not recommended for people with hepatitis. Due to the above info, I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

Alcohol is also highly toxic.

Forget recreational drugs. They aren't good for you no matter how you try to rationalize thier use, and thier effects will only degrade your performance. They cannot give you any of the benifits of meditation either.

[l@zylee]

Hi kyklos,

Yes i think we are in a lot of ways luckier in the west as things aren't so formal, a lot of us socialise with our Sifu's and talk with them like we talk to our best friends, so we can question anything.

As for your meditation as Samurai Jack says, you really must persevere, I too had concentration difficulties but it gets better with practice, I like to observe my busy mind talking crap when I meditate, as a consequence there are much longer periods of stillness in my meditation but it has taken time, remember to just "sit" don't get to technical about it just sit and observe, be there now dude!

Best Wishes

Lee

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by kyklos
...My roommate from Hong Kong told me that monks find it disrespectful to ask them questions about their teachings. I asked him why... LMAO! :D

Good practice!!! :D



There's a famous and maybe apocryphal exchange between Timothy Leary and a Tibetan monk. Leary challenged the monk to take some acid, and the monk, after a long time of saying he thought he didn't need it etc, eventually took some. This was the sixties when trips were up to a hundred times stronger than now according to Tom Wolfe and others. Anyway, this monk geezer sits there for a day or so, comes down and says, "Hmm, as I thought, it's like enlightenment but quicker." Then he pauses... and says, "Some things shouldn't be quicker."

Leary, Burroughs, a lot of the Beat poets, Kerrouac, etc took a lot of chems and natural highs. To them, it was a way of life, a way of pushing perceptive and intuitive boundaries. Experimentation can be initiation, meditation or enlightenment.

But like kungfu, like meditation, this should not be taken lightly, otehrwise it just leads to one or other form of blithering idiocy! :D

I've had and I have many friends who imbibe in many things. Only one of them I can think of made it his mission to take things for experience (rather than fun or addiction), and he ended up a basket case, not taking anything since his release from the nuthouse, and leading a relatively normal life, with some very interesting observations not unlike those of some buddhists or other mystics.

Many of the others seem like babbling fools.

I tried a few things, with an aim to serious experimentation, but then quit completely... it seems a high price to pay, and the MA was way more rewarding.

I agree with Samurai Jack about working on your meditation, but I don't agree with this: '...and thier effects will only degrade your performance. '... but I'm not going to go into details on a public board under my own name! :D

[Oso]

I don't see alcohol as all that bad in moderation. Pot is probably ok as well though I don't partake myself. I've had just one experience w/ mushrooms and they seemed ok.

The heavier stuff is just too risky to even experiment with, imo.

I've always felt that the hippies and heads who talked about expanding your consciousness with drugs were cheating. As the monk said in the story above, some things shouldn't be fast.

Kinda like steroids...if you don't work hard to achieve something, how can it be valuable?

[David Jamieson]

Anything in moderation is fine, barring physical or medical complications.

not gonna say don't, just gonna say know what you are doing.

also, when you use substances to run away from something that needs to be dealt with, you will fail ultimately. However, if you use drugs to look for something "other" you may succeed and have less negative repurcussions.

I never understood people who never tried to understand any of these things who are down on them. To me, that is just their own fear of the unknown. Which is to a degree healthy in everyday life, but when the chips are down, it will freeze you into a worthless pile of sludge at which point you are useless to yourself and anyone else. The same is true of the addled mind trying to make sense of the common reality.

moderation, the middle path etc etc.

as for monks disdaining questions, I think it depends on teh question and the approach to asking it. don't confuse pointed beligerence with actual seeking, i'm sure the monks can see the line on that.

[Starchaser107]

Wing Chuns Yip Man was an opium addict. There can't be cultural taboos about drinking alcohol because Drunken Style Kung Fu exists.
That being said, I believe that we should respect our bodies. Some substances are more harmful than others. Essentially any substance we take is a poison. Some poisons may make us stronger , some may be debilitating. Most assuredly if not kept in check all of them are very dangerous.

All the best for 2005

[FngSaiYuk]

Originally posted by kyklos
My roommate from Hong Kong told me that monks find it disrespectful to ask them questions about their teachings. I asked him why and he gave me this look like I fell from the sky or something and got all ****y like i was breaking some unwriten law. I just don't get it. If they are teaching us something wouldn't they want us to get the full grasp of it. I get the whole "they are guides" thing and I don't expect them to spell everything out but if i have a question i want to ask it dam* it. Anywho you can tell it's a bit frustrating.

Perhaps it's 'cuz it's obvious, or, you'll get the answer if you follow the teachings, or something along those lines. Something along the lines of, "it's the journey, not the destination". In some other circles I run in, the reply would be RTFM ::grin::

[fa_jing]

Drugs are drugs and they should be there if you need them. The problem is when they are misused. One common way is to try to use a recreational drug to treat depression. This treats the symptom, but not the cause, and is in fact usually detrimental to the actual cause. For instance cocaine was once seen as a wonder drug, favored by psychologists etc for their patients. Then they debunked it. Speed was much prescribed, also morphine and heroin were ingredients in many household remedies around the turn of the century.

Basically if you rely on drugs or alcohol for any mental concern it is a crutch, and one that might keep you from learning to walk straight on your own.

[David Jamieson]

rtfm :D lol

[PangQuan]

as for monks disdaining questions, I think it depends on teh question and the approach to asking it. don't confuse pointed beligerence with actual seeking, i'm sure the monks can see the line on that.

This I agree with. Also a big part of the whole "question" thing is that you are there to be a student. You must trust your teacher 100% anything less shows a lack of trust and dedication. This concept will be difficult for many westerners to truly understand. To question your teacher is to question thier methods and to question thier knowledge. Of course as stated earlier seeking knowledge and questioning through beligerence are completely different, but a fine line seperates them. Keep quiet, learn, in due time you will understand your teacher and learn when it is appropriat to ask what. You must understand this mindset is in place for truly dedicated students, not the 1 to 2 year students. Im talking 10 year to lifelong style. My sifu was raised/trained in Shaolin, so I feel I am lucky to have such a traditional influence on my Kung Fu. Of course he has been here in the USA for a while, he is somewhat westernised.

In regards to the substance issue, I was once having a conversation with a police friend of mine, this issue came up. He was a narcotics specialist. By his professional standard, he classifies a "drug" as any foreign substance that inhibits the 3 main survival functions of life, Eat, Sleep, Breed. Otherwise it is just a foreign substance. Much like meat to a vegitarian. Although any substance can be "abused", yes even meat. If it does not fall under this classification and is abused, you are simply abusing a foreign substance, each foreign substance abuse will have its own negative effects on the body. Although used in proper moderations, with a goal set in mind, it may not be so harmfull. Of course this is only the opinion of a professional, so what do I know, im not the pro. Just stay away from the real bad stuff (chemically enhanced substances) and if you are using the natural stuff, make sure its not for the wrong reasons. Many cultures have it in thier heritage to use certain substances as rights of passage for certain fields of their culture. This is not so much the norm since the industrial revolution and the westernization of the world. But it was a tradition used for hundreds of years by many cultures. This is an example of using a foreign substance without the wrong goals. Such as Native Amercian Shamans and the trips they would take into the desert in search of the spiritual guidence they sought through the influence of payotee. It should not be a way of life, just a part of life. If even that. Although I cant say tomatoes are bad unless I try them right? But I can say a bullet in the brain is bad w/o trying it. That is the diff.

[Ai Lek Ou Seun]

Originally posted by Mat
'... but I'm not going to go into details on a public board under my own name! :D

Yeah someone might recognize your name...I mean you're probably the only Mat in the world.

:rolleyes:

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by PangQuan
... By his professional standard, he classifies a "drug" as any foreign substance that inhibits the 3 main survival functions of life, Eat, Sleep, Breed...Interesting. Did he say 'inhibit'? Would that not technically exempt marijuana, or has it actually been proven that marijuana lowers your sperm count...?

[Banjos_dad]

Smoking pot doesn't do good things for your stamina...As far as eating it, I don't know.

I believe that for every addle brained pothead that needs to stop, there are three or four uptight @ssh0les that really, seriously need to get stoned & chill tf out if even for a few moments... but again there's another unsolicited .02 worth.
Personally I have some issues that I cope with by smoking it. Its best for everyone. I'm a m/f'n BEAR without it. Yes, that is a reflection of my own weakness but o well...better than staying inside my house and raging all day. There I said it...sometimes its hard to go against the orthodox line here on kfo...


As for the sperm count issue...for me that would only be a boon (sorry Banjo babe).

Anyone remember Gene's article about the Mystical Smoking Pipe of gung fu?

[red5angel]

It hink this is related more to that qi bull then to anything else. Of course the eastern cultures are pretty good about preaching moderation and I think moderation in all things is reasonable.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Banjos_dad
I believe that for every addle brained pothead that needs to stop, there are three or four uptight @ssh0les that really, seriously need to get stoned & chill tf out if even for a few moments... LOL :D too f'in true!

[Toby]

Originally posted by kyklos
Unless your toking up like 6 times a day then i doubt it has much effect on your sperm count.

I pretty much knew what was going to happen but i did it anyway so i could actually feel it. So just as a test I smoked up about an hour before practice one day and lets just say thats not happening again. Coordination was waaaaaay down. But heck now I know and the best way to learn is through experience.I used to smoke 5-6 times a day, 3-4 cones each time. My sperm count was obviously not affected. Also, I used to work with an axe (primarily), chainsaw and an instrument similar to a cross between a scythe and an oversized sickle, walk many miles a day and travel between worksites by trailbike. I would ride fast and work hard and smoking never affected my work or riding. OTOH a couple of my colleagues who also imbibed had less than desirable side effects (similar to those you mention).

[Starchaser107]

some people just have better genes than others.

[Ray Pina]

I had a friend who smoked A LOT of pot with me in college .... he dropped out, I graduated with honors.

I know people who smoke half a joint and recline on the couch and watch Simposns and order Dominos ... I do too. But I can also do a few bong hits and want to paint something, or ride my snakeboard, but make incredible love.

I usually smoke before going out and surfing. Riding waves that are two-stories tall requires some coordination, the pot puts me in a zone, I focus, get tuned in to what I'm doing..... And yes, I can achive that same state without it, but there's nothing like getting home from work and there's an hour and a half of light left and you blast some tunes and spark one up as you grab your trunks and wax your board.

I wouldn't puff before a fight. I have puffed before class on occassions and it keeps me loose, gets me into things and I feel a certain connection with my surroundings and environment .... just as long as no one focuses on me.

I won't BS myself. Putting smoke in my body (even if filtered through water) is not better than not putting it there. But when I look at my total quality of life (joy, easy going, carefree, happy go lucky, focused, tuned it) it has played a tremendous positive role.

As far as LSD, I would't lump it together with coke and herroin. It to has had a positive affect on my life. I never abused it (maybe 5 hits my entire life) but it revealed certain things to me in this life. I wouldn't take it now because I got what I needed from it and I would have to fully trust the source.

But basically it drove home my life's guiding principle: If I want to be a writer I have to write.

Sounds very simple and is, but how many people want to be or do something and don't. I saw it very clear one night, as if I was lucky to be of a generation not to go to war, to be alive, or, as if I died and was lucky enough to see a second chance. So I have not pursued an internet job and worry about my 401K or care to now take up Texas Hold em... I'm a writer. And I'll pursue this until I'm dead, even if I'm broke and lonely.

That was what LSD taught me.