OT: Advice needed on schmoozing/bullshi.ting [Archive]

IronFist

01-02-2005, 04:33 PM

So I'm in the corporate business world where schmoozing and bull****ting are an everyday thing. Idiots get huge promotions because they play golf with the bigwigs and get all buddy-buddy with them despite being completely incompetent. Anyone who is in the corporate world knows this already, tho.

My problem is not that I'm always serious, but just that I have a very low tolerance for bull****. I find 95% of what most people like to "talk about" to be neither interesting nor stimulating. I am absolutely amazed that some of these people can even dress themselves in the morning. Let me give you an example. Do you remember last year when the Cubs almost won until that guy (Steve Bartman) caught the ball and everyone blamed the Cubs' ensuing loss on him? If you watch the news I'm sure you remember that. Anyway, I work for the same company as Steve Bartman. At lunch, I will hear (remember this is a year later now) people talking about how they want to kick his ass, etc. Don't even get me started on how people who let professional sports carry over into their personal lives (unless they are on or manage that team) are stupid. Anyway, this is an example of the moronic drivel with which I must put up sometimes. Whatever the subject matter, it's as if each person's idiotic statement fuels the fire and the conversation gets dumber and dumber. In situations like this I'd rather not contribute at all than join in the idiocy.

It's the same way. When we have "happy hour" after work or whatever it's always the same people talking about the same boring things, and then promoting each other when positions become available. And heaven forbid if you actually have an original thought and you mention it to one of these people. "What? You don't like such-and-such band that MTV says is cool? Outcast!" And then you've just been moved down a notch on the popularity (and thus "promotional-availability") scale.

Now, I know that this is how nearly all corporate business is structured so there's not much I'm going to be able to do to change it. So, I need advice on how to fake it. Sometimes I can fake it for a few minutes but then I get so sick with myself that I have to quit. I also feel like the sheep (oops, I mean, other employees) can tell that I'm faking it. So, can any of you who are good at bull****ting, fake and shaking, schmoozing, whatever you want to call it, give me some tips? Please? I'm in dire need of help.

rubthebuddha

01-02-2005, 05:13 PM

MK -- that's only because you have a picture of the big boss boning a goat.

mickey

01-02-2005, 05:17 PM

Hi IronFist,

I suggest that you take a different approach. Find yourself a mentor. With mentoring you learn faster and you get to be on that inside track with people who have the skills and are willing to share them with you, while looking out for your development and advancement in the business. In this regard, the business world is no different from the martial arts world-- you will have your idiots and fools; but, then you will have your Tobys, your Samurai Jacks, your Ford Prefects and even your IronFists who know the deal and can walk the talk without the B.S. Every organization has a culture. It is a matter of finding one with a culture that suits you. Just like martial arts schools. In the business world, talk is small. Show people what you can do.

If these options are not available to you, you may want to take the lead in the conversation at times. Share your interests. That eliminates the B.S. that you would have to indulge in. If anything, it would be their turn to B.S. Let them enjoy the feeling.

mickey

David Jamieson

01-02-2005, 06:33 PM

here's a piece of advice.

ask people about themselves. people LOVE to talk about themselves. And someone who raises the subject is seen in a better light.

If you want to be seen in a better light, listening to others will raise their positive perception of you. In fact, if you are not manipulative about it and genuinely listen to them, you may find your mentor in that way. You may also find new allies and potential enemies in this way.

SaMantis

01-02-2005, 06:48 PM

mickey and KL, that's good advice but I don't think it applies to this situation.

IronFist, be your own man. Period. Speak up if you don't agree with something. Don't even think about how to word it, just say it. Don't schmooze with the bigwigs; give them the straight news, or just shake their hand and keep moving. And make sure you look people in the eye when you're talking to them.

Two things will happen:

1. Everyone will hate you for being so god**** honest and outspoken. This is not a bad thing, as you will know where they stand, and you won't get invited to happy hour so much, which sounds like a stupid-ass lame event to begin with.

2. High-ranking types with your same values WILL notice you. There are still businesspeople out there who appreciate juniors who are determined to work, rather than schmooze, their way up.

If there's no one in your company with the same size cajones as you, then move on. Seriously, you don't need the stress.

IronFist

01-02-2005, 07:09 PM

Originally posted by SaMantis
2. High-ranking types with your same values WILL notice you. There are still businesspeople out there who appreciate juniors who are determined to work, rather than schmooze, their way up.

It's strange. By random chance the girl who is my "coach" at work is the same as me. She and I sometimes talk (in private) about how fake and contrived the business world is.

Unfortunately, she's my coach and "mentor," per se, but not responsible for my raises or promotions.

But still, I'm glad she's my coach.

mickey

01-02-2005, 07:44 PM

Holy Smokes!Holy Mother of God!!!

You have a coach/mentor?

This person MAY be responsible for your evaluation. Not only will this person evaluate your job performance, this person may have to evaluate how congruent you are with the workplace. If you are still complaining after how long?; then that may factor in why you are still at the same level. Keep in mind that I am only going by the info you are providing here.

mickey

rogue

01-02-2005, 07:56 PM

Originally posted by rubthebuddha
MK -- that's only because you have a picture of the big boss boning a goat.
That wasn't a goat, that was MK!

IronFist

01-02-2005, 08:01 PM

Originally posted by mickey
Holy Smokes!Holy Mother of God!!!

You have a coach/mentor?

Why the excitement?

This person MAY be responsible for your evaluation.

She can give input, but she's not directly responsible. In fact, those responsible can ignore anything she says. She's not my boss, she's just my coach.

I've only been there 9 months, and this is my first job since I've graduated from university.

ZIM

01-02-2005, 08:16 PM

Originally posted by IronFist

I've only been there 9 months, and this is my first job since I've graduated from university. Holy cow. Fresh from Uni and can't BS? How did you graduate? :D

Pick up Newsweek, select 3 random stories, but only read the first para & the captions to the photos. Deftly shift topic to those few things after the compulsory weather complaint, but have no settled opinions on what you're talking about. You'll be good to go and the creeps will give you a rep for being well-informed.

mickey

01-02-2005, 08:44 PM

IronFist,

She would not be doing that kind of work if her input was not valued. I am not blaming her, per se, it is that you need to demonstrate to her that you are ready for the next level. Even telling her that is a good thing. The talk about schmoozing and B.S. needs to be subdued. Bring the job focus on.

Another avenue would be the human resource people in your corporation. Let them know that though you like what you are doing, you want something more challenging; you want something that would allow for more growth. This is the "language" that your coach needs to hear as well as the human resource people.

I am going to bed now,

mickey

FngSaiYuk

01-02-2005, 08:48 PM

Y'know what, if u're already disgusted by it, 'faking' it will make ya disgusted at yerself... Yes, there are SOME businesses out there where straight shooters and raw business logic, work ethics, productivity, etc rule and are compensated accordingly, but really, MOST business and in particular mid to big business is moved by BS. It's how wealth can be generated out of crap.

Be straightforward, direct, honest, etc. DON'T let anyone step all over you, DON'T overstress or overwork yourself and focus on the stuff that you enjoy... You'll live happier as a result. Wealth can buy a lot, but if the way you acquire that wealth makes you unhappy.... well, its up to you to balance your willingness to go against your belief system to acquire material wealth....

Hope that helps any... I've made my choice in the corporate game and I've been quite pleased and overall I'm doing alright compared to my peers.

MonkeySlap Too

01-02-2005, 10:08 PM

Pick up a book called "The Secret Handhake." Analize where you are according to the book. If you can't see yourself getting the handshake there, start interviewing. It's a good place to start.

Whatever you do, don't be phoney, don't be patronizing. But be pleasantly kind to everybody. Keep your ethics. Some will hate you for it, but if the organization is halfway decent they will be gone before you.

Dude everywhere I've worked I've ALWAYS been a polarizing guy... some people just hate me, but I don't care. Mostly because their clumsy politics don't really work well on a guy who spent his life studying the classics. The peole who do like me tend to be insanely loyal and supportive - because they know I return the favor. But I've been stung before, and felt like that before I realized 1/3 of my work time must be devoted to managing perceptions and politics.

I'm writing a book that includes this topic. I plan to have it out by the end of the year. My qualifications are simple - my method works. Everyone of my friends who have applied it have acheived their goals within a reasonable time frame.

One more thing - Every day is a job interview. You have no friends at work. Every conversation is an interview. It never ends - if you intend to suceed. It is foolish to assume anyone can be trusted with your inner thoughts. Often they are selfish, and silly anyways. Keep them to yourself.

ZIM

01-02-2005, 10:16 PM

My crummy advice. :D

Listen, just make it a game when you're dealing with the phoneys.

2 fun bits:
-Mirroring. Adapt whatever pose your interlocutor is striking. They touch the chin, you touch your chin, etc. See how long it goes and whether they catch on and whether or not you get positive regards from it.

-End a lot of sentences with a question mark? Just that little lift? Especially in group discussions? See if you get more or less people agreeing with you or if they start doing it too.

Cynically speaking, it really doesn't matter at all what you talk about, as long as you remember names & get people nodding.

/uh-hunh uh-hunh

IronFist

01-03-2005, 12:10 AM

Originally posted by ZIM
-End a lot of sentences with a question mark? Just that little lift? Especially in group discussions? See if you get more or less people agreeing with you or if they start doing it too.

You mean uptalking? That's how dizzy sorority girls talk when they tell a story. "So the other day? I was at the mall? And I saw the cutest guy? I was like omg! So I was thinking 'I have to get his number?' And then I went up to him?" I always associated that with being a moron, but I could be wrong.

The other thing I hate is corporate speak. You can't just say what you mean. You can't just "talk" to someone. You have to "reach out" to them, or "touch base" with them, to "make sure you're on the same page." It's unbelievable. You could play bulls.hit bingo by putting these catch phrases on a grid and crossing them off every time you hear one.

IronFist

01-03-2005, 12:16 AM

Originally posted by MonkeySlap Too
Pick up a book called "The Secret Handhake." Analize where you are according to the book. If you can't see yourself getting the handshake there, start interviewing. It's a good place to start.

I just ordered it from amazon.com. I got it from a "used" seller but he said the condition was "new." Hardcover, $4.93. w00t.

Thanks for the recommendation.

Mr Punch

01-03-2005, 04:53 AM

SA Mantis's points are good, as are Monkeslap's, especially the second and last paragraphs.

In some companies hard work is good. I did boring crappy office junior type work for six months or so, always finishing everything that was given to me for a day halfway through the morning, or a week's worth by the end of Monday, so in the end I was asking for the next three or four tasks at the same time. I even did lots of overtime, and after a while, my speed and efficiency had revolutionized the way the office was run.

My boss did some waking up, and started giving me more and more useful and more and more important things to do, so in the end I was liasing with high-level customers, the press, other departments, legal and local govt offices, and I made some suggestions for management style, scheduling, efficiency etc... They were listened to, and in some cases implemented, and after 9 months or so I was offered a mid-management position.

Nobody else in the office complained cos it just seemed natural I guess, and also most people's complaints had been about inefficency, and my ways were generally more efficient... and as a general rule I do what Monkeyslap suggested and sympathetically ask lots of questions of people with problems, and not reveal anything of myself... that's just who I am.

Hard work, efficiency, and my MA philosophy went a long way in my case.

Also Zim's games are right on the nail!!! You're already getting the idea with the BS phrase bingo!

Some of my pet hates:

'level playing field'
'go down that route' (no ****er ever just chooses anything anymore!)
x-y interface (insert anything for x-y: customer-manager, nose-manager's ass etc)

and I would personally gut anyone who uses the words 'network' as a verb meaning to talk to some ****er at a party, or to play golf, or to slouch off and chat up some dizzy tart in accounting!

BTW, I couldn't be bothered in the end, and came to Japan! And surprisingly the corporate culture seems actually a modicum more honest over here... though I've steered well clear and just enjoy teaching for a charity organization (which it turns out is just as two-faced as a corporation but more penny-pinching!) and doing seminars for the very ****ers I escaped!!! :D

ZIM

01-03-2005, 06:51 AM

Originally posted by IronFist
You mean uptalking? That's how dizzy sorority girls talk when they tell a story. "So the other day? I was at the mall? And I saw the cutest guy? I was like omg! So I was thinking 'I have to get his number?' And then I went up to him?" I always associated that with being a moron, but I could be wrong.

The other thing I hate is corporate speak. You can't just say what you mean. You can't just "talk" to someone. You have to "reach out" to them, or "touch base" with them, to "make sure you're on the same page." It's unbelievable. You could play bulls.hit bingo by putting these catch phrases on a grid and crossing them off every time you hear one.
Yes & yes, I know.

Uptalking enforces consensus, didn't you know? They're statements that encourasge agreement.

WRT "corpspeak"- I've been to meetings where nohing is said at all. I've had former friends that turned into corpspeak zombies and could no longer speak as humans, too.
Whats weird is, yes, they get ahead.
The reason why is tha corps culture is one of fear.

I'll go into it more l8r. Got a funeral to go to.

SaMantis

01-03-2005, 06:52 AM

LOL, you never can really escape!

I've been fortunate in my career to be able to sit and talk with CEO's, generals, administrators and other assorted bigwigs. They are, almost without exception, very straightforward, no-BS people, and surprisingly, most of them are genuinely nice. They got where they are with their values intact.

ZIM

01-03-2005, 10:56 AM

OK- just got back. Still a little fazed, sorry.

When I was saying 'fear', I didn't mean cold sweat kind of fear. Really, its more the same kind of fear exhibited in high schools. "Am I popular?", that kind of thing. Everybody has to make their peace with it, and you're just doing yours now.

Essentially, within any group [corp or other] I divvy everybody up into two groups:
-those who can say yes to whatever I'm proposing
-those who will say no.

Most ppl in corps have no serious power, but they do have the ability to turn you down, so they do it constantly. I know most ppl think that corps are full of 'yes' men, but it isn't true- they're full of no-men.

The no-men I just write off as BS targets. I'm nice to them, but I don't waste resources cultivating them. They're followers, you see. They're also the corpspeakers, you'll note. Corpspeak is a way of saying no without even committing yourself *that* far. Eunuchs, every one of them.

The yes guys/gals are typically more powerful and often are outside of your stated chain of command. They can be mavericks, but not always.
Cultivating them can be difficult, and getting them to be effective for you [if they're outside of your chain] can be a problem.
If they're high muckamucks, go through the secretary. No exec in my experience relies on him/herself, but on their secretaries. Consequently, secretaries know an awful lot more about how the corp actually works than anybody else.
Buy them fudge, get them stuff, take their side.

Most corp ppl are fearful of several things. Being odd is one of them, hence you won't see anything potentially controversial on the desks or in their homes, they won't talk about controversial things, etc. Its go along to get along, vanilla all the way.

There are two traps, and you seem to be vulnerable to one of them.
-first trap is the Peter principle: Rising to the level of your incompetence. This states that the more incompetent you are, the higher you'll go.
To understand that, remember that competent and competition only share a latin root.
-the second is the Competency trap, which is where you're vulnerable, it seems. If you're competent, you tend to stay where you are. You're too valuble to move, and anyway, you're a wonk & inflexible, so they say. Before you know it, you're Milton from Office Space.

OK- here's where I'm gonna use corpspeak, but to purpose-
If you intend to stay there, cultivate your eccentricities early. Do so by controlling your "branding" before someone else does it for you.
Everyone gets tagged because ppl like pigeonholing others. If you're a maverick, you're not a 'team-player'. If you hold onto your principles, youre a hard-a$$. If you complain you're a whiner, etc.

You want to be a go-to guy. First thing is say yes to the projects you can. That puts your a$$ on the line, but it pays dividends.
Second depends on who you are. Me, I'm a contrarian, so I play that up- the Corporate Contrarian. I'm the go-to for dissenting opinion, when you need someone to tell you the unvarnished, cynical truth of the matter. But I'm kind about it, always with an eye for improvement, not tearing down. When I back something, people usually suspect its been vetted harshly- and they're right.

Write your own Mission Statement. Make it something easy & meaningful, not that corporate loser stuff. "The buck stops here", whatever, is much better than "Strive to provide excellent service, leverage mindshare, network with emergent industries, and promote diversity"

I don't know what you do, so some of this is probly wrong for you, even if they're good generalities.

IronFist

01-03-2005, 12:00 PM

Good advice.

fa_jing

01-03-2005, 01:26 PM

Well, you could do what I did. Refuse to kiss ass, do more work for less pay than others, get nowhere for five years. Walk out, refuse to compromise by taking a position that will be more of the same, starve, find cool job at the last second where your skills are valued.

I always hated the BS and brownnosing, and it started in High School, BTW. The teachers loved talking about the top 30 or so students in the class (500 students a class) and where they were going to college and all that. They barely even knew who I was and I was in the top ten and acing their classes and ended up at one of the highest rated universities in the nation.

But you will have to pay your dues for some unknown amount of time first, Iron. 9 months is nothing.

Look at the industry you are in, too. All IT is not as results-oriented as you might think. For instance, I went from a consulting firm on a long-term contract to a startup. It's like night and day. Results are way more important here. Even still, there's plenty of political BS going on here, it just isn't so in-your-face fake.

IronFist

01-03-2005, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by fa_jing
Well, you could do what I did. Refuse to kiss ass, do more work for less pay than others, get nowhere for five years.

That is absolutely not what I want. Less work for more pay is always good.

Walk out, refuse to compromise by taking a position that will be more of the same, starve, find cool job at the last second where your skills are valued.

Why'd you walk out? Cuz you were sick of it?

I always hated the BS and brownnosing, and it started in High School, BTW.

Yeah it did. I have the same problems in non-work related groups sometimes, too.

So what exactly causes someone to do more work for less pay than others? That is absolutely the opposite of what I want. I'd like to eventually get to a place where I'm responsible for people rather than for technology, because I don't like having to stay until 1am* to fix system errors or because something I set up doesn't work. But from what I read here, it sounds like I don't want to get too good at my job because then I will be "too valuable to promote," which means being stuck at the lower level and therefore having less pay. Please advise.

*only because I'm salaried. I have friends who do similar things for more pay + overtime and I am insanely jealous. One of my friends in such a situation, because of overtime, makes nearly 50% more than me per year. It p.isses me off cuz we graduated at the same time with the same major and we both have entry level jobs.

FngSaiYuk

01-03-2005, 01:48 PM

Originally posted by IronFist
So what exactly causes someone to do more work for less pay than others?
For me, it's 'cuz it's easy... I churn out more work with less effort and time than most others. Oh and when you're valuable, so what if they don't promote you, you're still valuable, ergo you get to dictate how and when you work. As long as the work is still done at or beyond their expectations of anyone else that they could hire within 10% of your pay, then you can get away with a good amount w/o having to kowtow to all the BS.

Be good at what you enjoy doing, do it well, make sure people know YOU are the one responsible for it and just don't bother dealing w/the BS... you'll likely find work life easier. The compensation comes over time, if you're fresh outta skewl, you still have quite a bit of time to prove yourself to others.

Again, this is based on the premise that the BS makes your innards turn and is disruptive to your personal harmony ::grin::

IronFist

01-03-2005, 03:21 PM

My work is not easy and I don't like a lot of it. I don't like the uncertainty of not knowing when I'll get to leave each day. It wouldn't be so bad if I got overtime. I also don't like the possibility of being assigned something right when I'm about to go home that I have no idea how to do. In fact, I hate it and it makes me misearable. I don't mind working hard as long as I get to leave on time, or I get compensated (money or time off, but preferrably money) for working extra, but I'm getting off the subject of this thread so I digress.

fa_jing

01-03-2005, 03:30 PM

I left because I could. I had wanted to for a long time. I had enough experience in a newer technology that I could expect to get a decent paying job doing it elsewhere.

What caused me to do more work than others, besides my natural desire to be productive, is that I foolishly thought it would get me somewhere. But others including my boss kept taking credit for my work :o

Despite the fact that my work led directly to my company acquiring work for two more associates than would have otherwise been possible, meaning more money for them, I couldn't even get a raise. Why? Because they kept me from getting up-to-date skills and knew they had me over a barrel.

It was partly the structure itself of the corporate workplace and the consulting environment, and partly certain individuals who were directly in my way and are more evil and worthless than the average employee.

ZIM

01-03-2005, 03:33 PM

Originally posted by IronFist

Yeah it did. I have the same problems in non-work related groups sometimes, too. Any problems with authority figures? Even well-buried ones? Resentment that can't be expressed can lead to shooting yourself in the foot.
Funny thing: All of the ppl I hated in high school are now the ppl I've gotta go to for loans, cars, whatever. It never ends.

Originally posted by IronFist

So what exactly causes someone to do more work for less pay than others? Toilet training, if you go by Freud. They end to want intangibles, like praise or recogniion, or self-satisfaction. Or they're too foolish or shy o speak up for themselves.

Originally posted by IronFist
But from what I read here, it sounds like I don't want to get too good at my job because then I will be "too valuable to promote," which means being stuck at the lower level and therefore having less pay. Please advise. Not exactly. The point is tha you should be good, bu recognizably so, and a leader, not just a cog in the machine. Doing that means leaning the politics.

Find out more abt how your friends are accomplishing this. Throw out useless things like jealousy.
I think you'll find, underneath the 'oh its just where I am' remarks that they have their own strategies, too.

MonkeySlap Too

01-03-2005, 11:05 PM

Listen to Zim.

MK - you sound like a copywriter. If it wasn't for the CMA thing you could be any dozen guys I know. But I won't work with them.

MasterKiller

01-04-2005, 07:43 AM

Originally posted by MonkeySlap Too
MK - you sound like a copywriter. If it wasn't for the CMA thing you could be any dozen guys I know. But I won't work with them. To tell you the truth, I only took the job because I wanted to pay off some bills. Once I got them paid, I was hooked on the paycheck. I'm a fiend for it.

Don't get me wrong, I get my work done, and done well. But I have no intention of working my way up the ladder. Not to mention the place I work for doesn't exactly jive with my value system.

Personally, I think I'd rather be a P.E. coach or something.

red5angel

01-04-2005, 08:48 AM

Don't fake it and don't sell yourself out. I work in the business world and I don't fake it or seel myself out.
I work in the business world because it supports my lifestyle, i.e. it pays me enough to do what I want to do when I want to do it most of the time.
I won't kiss ass, bullsh!t or pretend to be something I'm not for the sake of a promotion or a raise. If I can't get it being who I am I don't deserve it and probably shouldn't have it.

I've had too may managers who shouldn't have their jobs, but have been able to kiss ass better then their competitors and across the board, they suck ass, period. I've come to the conclusion that if you cannot get a job or a promotion on your own merits, you don't have what it takes to be there in the first place.

FngSaiYuk

01-04-2005, 08:59 AM

Originally posted by red5angel
I've had too may managers who shouldn't have their jobs, but have been able to kiss ass better then their competitors and across the board, they suck ass, period. I've come to the conclusion that if you cannot get a job or a promotion on your own merits, you don't have what it takes to be there in the first place.
Heheh, but at the end of the day, they've got an easier cushier job that pays more... ::grin::

red5angel

01-04-2005, 09:01 AM

pays more maybe, but the one in particular that affects my life currently works a hell of a lot more then I do.

FngSaiYuk

01-04-2005, 09:04 AM

Yah, well if ya put things in perspective, something like only 1% of the population put out 99% of quality productivity...

or something like that..

MasterKiller

01-04-2005, 09:04 AM

Originally posted by red5angel
pays more maybe, but the one in particular that affects my life currently works a hell of a lot more then I do. And that, really, is my whole point. I get off at 4 every day and I make a decent living. I could work a lot more and earn more promotions and work my way into management...but why? Most of my life goals are focused OUTSIDE of work. I work in order to pay for them. It's a means to an end, for me. I'm not career oriented.

red5angel

01-04-2005, 09:10 AM

yep. I have noticed the higher up you go the more work you have to ut in for the most part. OF course from time to time the big guys get month long vacations and the kuiller benefits but for the most part they spend most of their time in the office. I have a wife, kids in the future, martial arts and the rest of my life I'd like to participate in.

David Jamieson

01-04-2005, 09:40 AM

well, going against the grain isn't going to win you any points at all.

you say it is inevitable and unbearable and yet you stay.

you want to move up.

Take the advice about listening to others and I don't agree that you have no friends at work. People often form many friednship bonds with their co-workers, heck, people marry people they work with.

It is not so negative if you aren't. Approach is key. YOu are not special and we all talk about banal nonsense at work because it is safe and non-confrontational.

Seriously though, if you do wnat to rise up a bit, make a little more money, be interested in people. Ask them questions. Don't be manipulative because that is actually quite transparent and in the end you'll get burned.

I am seeing a lot of negative reactions here, which is kind of weird.

yes people are banal, yes people say dumb things, but if you listen, really listen to people, you can come to know them in some manner. And when they know, that you know, they will relate even further.

you don't have to agree with peeps, or share the same views, just listen to them. It's easy and you will gain respect from them I guarantee it. More negative and push back = less people want to be around you at all.

Merryprankster

01-04-2005, 09:44 AM

The Peter's Principle was misstated. The premise is that you rise to your level of incompetence. Put simply, you keep getting promotions until you wind up in a job you can't hack. IE, just because you're a good foreman doesn't mean you'll make a good subcontract manager. It doesn't mean the more incompetent you are, the higher you'll go...

Iron, the guys who have said in essence, work hard and be honest are correct. There is no "game" to play unless you choose to play one. And the reason that there is superficial crap is because many people are superficial.

Here's some advice from a middle-manager who's had to take up work above his pay grade (ie, me):

Find the pockets of competence and exploit the hell out of them. What that means is find out who does good work and any time you need something, go ask them. They will be busy as **** and they are also most likely to help you. In return, do the same for them. You will learn more from them than anybody else about how the place you work actually runs.

MonkeySlap Too

01-04-2005, 12:58 PM

Also remember that 'those ass kissers' may be there for other reasons.

I've often commented with dismy to my buddies about how certain utter f@ck ups manage to get and stay in certain positions. There are a wide variety of reasons: 1.) They have skill/relationship that means $$$$ - which forgives many sins 2.) Their manager needs someone with current experience - a seat warmer 3.) the manager is an idiot who specializes in hiring idiots, or poor perfrmers so 'he/she' can look like a star, I culd go on and on.

Often it is the same dynamics as in high school. Cliques form based upon personal preferences. The more an organization favors cliques over performance, the more you need to get out of there.

Do not confuse this with the fact that people MUST function in teams. It is the nature of business. Really give that book a serious read, I think it spells out the organizational behavior very well, and teaches how to get along without becoming a creep.

However, never forget that organizations have a culture. To succeed you must at least fit the minimum requirements of the culture. If you don't, you will fail. I hear people all the time demand that they'll 'be themselves.' Well sometimes that behavior is not considered appropriate to the workplace.

Each situation is different.

In response to Kung Lek - I've made many good friends over time from working. But you should NEVER treat anyone as a close confident in your current workplace. westerners are too quick to decide people are good friends. Let them see you as their confidant. Never be theirs. This is just good sense. People are there to earn money, and they will act in ways that are not in your favor as a result, even if you think they are your friend. The stupid sh!t you would say to friends will be used against you. This is not a bleak outlook, but an honest one. Good advice no matter how modest your goals.

The other important factor, is to let people know your goals. Ask those above you how they can help you acheive them. Be direct. Junior people often hate the guy who is ambitious, but being a wallflower is as bad as being the obnoxious schmooze-meister. Don't worry about being liked as much as respected. I've had plenty of people on my team not because I liked them particularly, but because they earned my respect. You'd be surprised how much this can snowball in your favor.

Read a book or two on management screw-ups. If you understand the pitfalls of the people managing you, you can help direct them to avoid problems. This will demonstrate an insight that most middle/junior folks just don't have - and applied correctly is way more valuable than any amount of glad-handing.

Oh, and smile when people approach you or you approach them. You'd be amazed at how simple and effective a simple smile is.

MonkeySlap Too

01-04-2005, 01:00 PM

This being respected thing is huge. I've promoted more people on merit, and helped them acheive their goals than people who sought to befriend me.

I've helped friends too, but they were usually friends beforehand and very, very good at what they do.

Ray Pina

01-04-2005, 01:45 PM

You know how you come to a martial arts bulliten board and then all you ever hear is ......

Oh, never mind. I know what you're talking about and was a victim of this myself at one point.

Two options:

1) realise most people are media zombies (not unlike Mr. Ross's BJJ Zombies) ... for example, everyone at my office now wants to play Texas Hold 'Em ... and place yourself above them.

or

2) Realise #1 but try your best to be blend in and be friendly and add what you can when you can.

I used No. 1 at first and it didn't get me anywhere. Now I use No. 2 and people like me and treat me well.

red5angel

01-04-2005, 04:26 PM

for example, everyone at my office now wants to play Texas Hold 'Em .

WTF is that anyway? I mean I know WHAT it is but where the hell did the popularity come from?

FngSaiYuk

01-04-2005, 05:12 PM

Originally posted by red5angel
WTF is that anyway? I mean I know WHAT it is but where the hell did the popularity come from?
Travel Channel

ZIM

01-04-2005, 07:25 PM

Originally posted by Merryprankster
The Peter's Principle was misstated. The premise is that you rise to your level of incompetence. Put simply, you keep getting promotions until you wind up in a job you can't hack. IE, just because you're a good foreman doesn't mean you'll make a good subcontract manager. It doesn't mean the more incompetent you are, the higher you'll go...

Iron, the guys who have said in essence, work hard and be honest are correct. There is no "game" to play unless you choose to play one. And the reason that there is superficial crap is because many people are superficial.

Here's some advice from a middle-manager who's had to take up work above his pay grade (ie, me):

Find the pockets of competence and exploit the hell out of them. What that means is find out who does good work and any time you need something, go ask them. They will be busy as **** and they are also most likely to help you. In return, do the same for them. You will learn more from them than anybody else about how the place you work actually runs. MP-
Thanks for catching that on the Peter principle.

As for the rest- I'm not going to disagree, since I value competence, hard work & honesty, too- but I will note that the original question was in regards to the 'fluffy' parts of getting ahead, and that often is a game.

I'd be the first to say that it counts for less, tho.

David Jamieson

01-04-2005, 08:36 PM

I think the popularity of texas hold'em is that it is probably the easiest way to play poker.

all ya gotta think about is your two lousy cards.

******, why can't they always be aces!:mad:
:p

IronFist

01-24-2006, 12:52 PM

I'm writing a book that includes this topic. I plan to have it out by the end of the year. My qualifications are simple - my method works. Everyone of my friends who have applied it have acheived their goals within a reasonable time frame.

Is your book out yet?

Ronin22

01-24-2006, 02:10 PM

For me, it's 'cuz it's easy... I churn out more work with less effort and time than most others. Oh and when you're valuable, so what if they don't promote you, you're still valuable, ergo you get to dictate how and when you work. As long as the work is still done at or beyond their expectations of anyone else that they could hire within 10% of your pay, then you can get away with a good amount w/o having to kowtow to all the BS.

Be good at what you enjoy doing, do it well, make sure people know YOU are the one responsible for it and just don't bother dealing w/the BS... you'll likely find work life easier. The compensation comes over time, if you're fresh outta skewl, you still have quite a bit of time to prove yourself to others.

Again, this is based on the premise that the BS makes your innards turn and is disruptive to your personal harmony ::grin::

IRON FIST
I think the above quote is the best piece of advice I've read on here. Not that I'm some expert or anyhting but it's the same principle that I've heard overe and over in the company I work for (one of the largest in the world) Be valuable, know your job inside and out, be the "go to guy" and finding a mentor within the company is a good idea. Look for people that have or are in the position you want and learn from them, just make sure it's someone you can trust. If you pick people that seem to have the same values as you this shouldn't be to hard. I think BS in our company gets you absoulutly nowhere because it's manditory that you move into another role within 2 years and it's pretty much your managers job to get you prepared. Part of our managers comp is based on the performance of the team so it takes out a lot of the politics and bs.

The thing I wonder about with you is in one of your posts you mentioned you didn't like some of the work and were bummed if a job was dropped on your desk at the last minute. If your not happy with what your doing your not going to progress as fast or as far as you like. One thing I noticed around here is that most people are passionate about their job, you have to like what your doing. Maybe you might be better suited for another line of work or a different aspect of your job.

Just a story about being valuable to a company. My ex worked in IT for a large company and she did her job very well but she also liked to teach aerobics. Her schedule didn't allow for her teach so she proved how valuable she was and pretty much made her own schedule.

Peace

SevenStar

01-24-2006, 02:33 PM

no doubt, the above by FSY is good advice. I fall into your category. I don't schmooze. However, If there is a group luncheon I will go - if someone else is buying. Hey, I like food. Anyway, I'm pretty much the go to guy for what goes on in my area. People know that, and it gets me off the hook from doing a lot of things that I would rather not do anyway. Also, it gives me leeway to speak my mind. I always say what I feel, and it's like, as long as I keep performing the way I do, they are mysteriously cool with it. On the downside, I think taking the second job as a bouncer has made me even less tolerant of BS now, so I am much quicker to say things. with much less concern about who I'm talking to. Especially considering I've seen several managers hanging out at my club - and they didn't know I worked there until I saw them.

In short, just do what you do, and do it well.

you can use your MA at work also. When we have deadlines, people run rampant. I had someone say to me once "I think the reason you don't get stressed out is because of all that karate stuff you do. Maybe I should try it."