How long is/was your formal training...

[Universal Stance]

Hi Guys,

Being new to the forum I have been reading post of the length of time people studied until a sifu to get to a certain point in their training. I was wondering how does your school handled that.

An alternative question is how long did it take you to become a sifu or instructor (this applies to consistent students).

For example, in my former kwoon, my sifu, Sonny Whitmore of the William Cheung lineage, told me that it would take about 2 and a half years to learn the style and take an additional 4 years of personal practice and perfecting of techniques before testing for sifu.

Before a large gap in my attendance, I was there for a year and a half, and I learned the sil lum tao, advanced sil lum tao, chum kil, and the first 20 Dummy positions and a mess of self-defense techniques. All in proper order with no rushing whatsoever. Yet I've seen posts where it was 4 years and they still didn't get the entire sil lum tao.

Just curious. No insults please towards me or my lineage.

Also, I made it to level 5 grade 0 before I left for political reasons.

"Any style that can protect you is valuable; keep the 'who's style is better' debate to yourself" - Me

[This message was edited by CheungStyle on 09-28-01 at 12:09 PM.]

[Universal Stance]

I guess I should mention that as long as you knew (relatively well) the techniques for the grade, you could test for it. So I went from level 0 to level 1 grade 0 to level 5 grade 0.

I guess that was important info I left out. HEEHEE!! :D

"Any style that can protect you is valuable; keep the 'who's style is better' debate to yourself" - Me

[Chum Kil]

I'm also from William Cheung's lineage. Before I left for Utah I was/still I'm a Level 5. I also learnt the following Chi Sau (Dan, Two-Arm, 8-Count, and Bong Sau/Lop Sau), Cross-Arm Chi Sau (Pak Sau, Lop Sau, and Lop Sau with 2 Punches), started Bil Jee and Random Self Defense Drills and Random Cross-Arm Chi Sau. It's nice to hear from some other people from the same lineage. If you don't mind me asking what were some of the political reasons you left. If you want to do it with an e-mail, here's mine: John.Styrnol@hill.af.mil. Who do you train with now?

John

Have little and gain;
Have much and be confused.

[Universal Stance]

I also learned a good amount of basic Chi Sau (everything you said) though I regret not receiving much more Chi Sau training. I am planning to complete my training with Sifu Parlati of NYC as soon as I can feel more secure about the economy. (I'm of the tech industry).

The political issue involved Sifu Whitmore's decision to leave WWCKFA and create a new partnership with (to me) an unknown but quite competant wing chun sifu of another lineage (don't know, don't care). He just went by the informal name of Mr. Lee. Anyway, I did alot of research before deciding which Wing Chun school I wanted to a part of. And for him to change styles like that hurt.

Now at this time I was returning from a 5 month leave. After a few minutes of training, I started asking questions of why things are different. A sihing told me that sifu changed affiliates. Even after confirmation from Sifu I didn't believe it until one day they changed the school sign. I was utterly shocked and felt totally betrayed. This man had the audacity to change the style without tell me, and from what I heard most of his students. I stayed a little while but couldn't take it so I told him that I couldn't except his decision and that I was leaving. With half his attention elsewhere, he told me "I understand..I hate to see you go". And that was it. Later I heard he lost a lot of students and even screwed over that sifu he switched to.

Well I still feel part of the lineage and plan to continue my training soon.

- Ron

"Any style that can protect you is valuable; keep the 'who's style is better' debate to yourself" - Me

[reneritchie]

We have no uniforms/belts/ranks/levels/titles or anything like that, so the basic way we learned was "when you can do one thing okay, we'll go onto the next thing". Though I'm still struggling with the "okay" on many things, it took me probably 7-8 years to go through the curriculum. I've received permission to teach but don't personally feel I can fulfill what I consider to be that very big responsibility yet (leave that to sifu 8). During that time, and since as well, I go as much as possible to work out with the newer students, since I find that's where all the important stuff is being done. Hopefully, a few more times through, time permitting, and that elsuve "okay" will be within reach 8)

Rgds,

RR

[Chum Kil]

"I am planning to complete my training with Sifu Parlati of NYC as soon as I can feel more secure about the economy."

Have you checked out Sifu Mazza's school? I talked to him last year, and he seems to be a good Sifu.

Sorry to hear how Sifu Whitmore treated you and his other students. I talked to him last year also about giving me some contacts to get some videos of Sifu Cheung here in the US.

Here in Utah there is no William Cheung Lineage. I tried Yip Ching Lineage, but didn't care for the footwork. So I hooked up with a fellow Tai Chi student who was interested in Wing Chun. We've been going at it for almost a year (Nov). When I get a chance I will go back to Sifu (Cal) to learn some more and maybe get some correction on current stuff.

Hope everything works out for you.

John

Have little and gain;
Have much and be confused.

[anerlich]

I also am a student from the TWC lineage. I was graded to level 10 (instructor level) by my teacher, Rick Spain, in 1996 after six and a half years of constant training. I tested for and gained my first post instructor ("master") level grade in 1999. Some have done it a little quicker, some have been training 10 years and still not graded past level 8.

The usefulness and ethics of gradings has been argued elsewhere, IMHO they ensure a student has and can demonstrate, at least a working knowledge of and facility with the entire curriculum, and provides a means of segregating students by levels of knowledge for efficient conduct of formal classes of up to 70 attendees. Obviously, grades, sashes, belts or certificates cannot do your fighting for you.

We parted company with William Cheung's organisation in 1997. Suffice to say the split was sudden, kicked off by William Cheung, and happened in front of a kwoon containing about fifty students, so there were lots of witnesses and there can be no argument regarding the circumstances. My instructor really was elft with no choice but to leave if he was to maintain any personal integrity whatsoever. I doubt that any student left because they wanted to train under William Cheung (or realistically, another instructor belonging to the WWCKFA as William Cheung teaches few regular classes himself) rather than Rick Spain. I saw it as an immediate plus and this impression has IMO been proved right many times over.

Since 1986 up to now, and for the foreseeable future, all students are expected to pass all gradings. Jumping levels has never been permitted. Everyone has started at the bottom, be they MA neophytes, have ring records or have black belts in other styles. Advanced SLT is taught starting at level 2. Chum Kil at level 4. Bil Jee at level 6. No exceptions. As gradings are held monthly, this is not unreasonable. However, two or three years is expected between each post-instructor level, of which there are seven.

[jason8]

Hi,

Okay I've got to admit it! You've got my attention! I'm gonna ask it... :)

Just what is 'advanced sil lum tao'??

thanks,

jason

[anerlich]

Advanced Sil Lim Tao is a version of SLT which includes a larger rotation on the huen saos, some extra movements and one extra section, and some stepping.

[mun hung]

"The unknown but quite competant Wing Chun SiFu of another lineage" that you mentioned is my SiFu Allan Lee/Lee Che Kong (not to be confused with wushu Allan Lee) You will find several of your old SiHing's are still studying with him today. SiFu Lee's school is not far from Sonny Whitmore's old location in Flushing. If you're interested in stopping by to see some familiar faces, you can call 646-523-1989.

[Super-Fist]

Well Ron, it's been a while. I've missed you since you left Sonny's school. And yes, I totally agree with you about Sonny. He had no right to switch our own style out from under us. Especially since he only told his older SiHings (Simeon, Marcus, Sully, Rudy, Andrew, etc). But anyway, are you sure you researched "Mr. Lee's" credentials? His version of Wing Chun is actually quite good and contains some things you wouldn't see in any other Wing Chun styles. I'm not trying to brag here, but after you left Sonny's school, some people like me stayed. And the difference between the two styles is forever far and between. More over, when Sonny's school finally disbanded in Oct. of '99, I continued to compare Cheung's style to my current SiFu Lee's style and decided that I would definitly stick with the latter. I honestly don't know why Sonny left William Cheung's association in the first place. It was probably because of all the trash that goes on in the association. A possible reason why others are leaving as well. But frankly, I don't care.

Let me state that you weren't alone in feeling betrayed and angry after spending so much time under Sonny. But Sonny, in his infinite wisdom, did a lot of things he shouldn't have. However, the one thing that he did do right was switch styles because if it weren't for him, I wouldn't be training under SiFu Lee today. Training under him has become one of the "best" experiences of my life.

Mun Hung and I are part of the same school. So get in touch with him if you want to learn more about SiFu Lee. It'd be good to see you again. Later. Oh, and just for the record I've been training ever since then...which accumulates to five years.

[This message was edited by Super-Fist on 09-30-01 at 08:13 AM.]

[marcus_pasram]

Hey Ron!

Whats up! Mun Hung told me you were on this forum and I had to drop in to see if it's you. I'm travelin' a lot these days - but I'm around for e-mail. Drop me an email sometime. marcus_pasram@yahoo.com

How is the Tai Chi training comming along?

BTW, I feel your pain... tech industry. I'm hurtin' too ;((

/Marcus

In America you can go on the air and kid the politicians, and the politicians can go on the air and kid the people.

[Universal Stance]

First I would like to apologize for not responding for a while.

Hey guys how have you all been. It's great to hear from you all.

Mum Hung, are you serious? I feel like an idiot. Ah well! I actually thought that his teaching was rather cool. The finger and forearm training at the beginning of each class in particular. His version of the Sil Lim Tao was cool too.

Personally, I felt so betrayed that I lost interest in Wing Chun for about 4 years after I left. I didn't have anything against what I was being taught by Sifu Lee however. My interest has since reignited tremendously now that I'm apart of this forum. Also, I do know how good Sifu Lee is but I also recognize Sigung Cheung's talent as well. I recently visited Sifu Parlati and his curriculum looks good. To me it's not the style that is the blame but the people teaching it. I originally chosen Sigung so I'm going to finish what I started.

Very cool on the offer for a visit. If you can, please send me the address to the new school along with a good time to come visit. It would be great to see all of you again.

My email is ronsays2@yahoo.com.

By the way, who is mum Hung? Not Andrew is it?

Rene Ritchie... If this is the true RR, I just picked up your co-authored book, "Complete Wing Chun". Excellent info!

P.S. I left Taijiquan because it wasn't cost effective at the time...and still not. I did learn an entire form and still use it today. And it increased my understanding with Wing Chun. I did Allan Lee's wushu too but my body couldn't handle it at the time :). After Wing Chun I may finish that school as well.


"Any style that can protect you is valuable; keep the 'who's style is better' debate to yourself" - Me

[This message was edited by CheungStyle on 09-30-01 at 03:27 PM.]

[Universal Stance]

The organization as big issues that I don't care to be a part of. That being said I don't plan to take part in its politics or have debates with anyone in or out of the organization. I'm not taking over nor creating a school once I reach 7th level like they would want either.

I do want to finish what I started. I did a good amount of research before joining that school and I stand by it (Though I admit I didn't know about the info contained in "Complete Wing Chun").

I totally agree with your views on a stricter grading system. I believe it should be done as such...Now. I may be level 5 but I never felt like I accomplished it. I knew the techniques but that's not going to save my butt. I have to know applications, strategies, and experience the times of when they work and when they don't.

Sifu Parlati tests only three times a year. I got the impression that he is harder on his students as he is in their face all the time, personally teaching. He pratices alot on semi-contact, full-contact, chi sao, self-defense and ground-work. He follows a strict schedule that doesn't entail the same startup routine every class. He also separates the classes from beginner, intermediate, and advanced. Finally, he's going to (if I join) start me in the beginner class and he'll judge me from then on. So I feel a bit safer from being cheated, but I'm being careful.

Lastly, I'm glad you guys came out stronger from the incident. After all it's about the art not the organization. :D

"Any style that can protect you is valuable; keep the 'who's style is better' debate to yourself" - Me

[Printer]

I am currently being trained under Sifu Randy Koller, who's teacher was Sifu Sonny Whitmore.

Sifu Koller's style of training fits my needs and desires quite nicely. He also offers Tai Chi Chaun (combat style) for no extra cost. It does seem that these two styles lend a hand to one another. Even more so when it comes to the feel/chi portion of it all.

I have alredy learned the sil lum tao and done some chi sau and don chi sau <SP?>(single arm chi sau). Along with these I have learned random attack and defense drills.

As for the level/sash/belt debate....I never did care for all of that. It tends to inflate more egos than anything else.

BTW...Sifu Sonny Whitmore is coming to our school for a seminar in late October. I am not sure if I am going to attend or not as I am so new to the system.