Toes out.

[Mr Punch]

When you are in a stance with one leg forward, do you ever use a stance with the toes pointing out, and if so what for?

In Hsing i I was shown this stance to loosen the qua (crease of the thigh) and get more twist into my punch.

In aiki I've been shown one which some people use as a stance to finish a pin/throw stably but which seems over exposed and vulnerable to me, and some people use the same stance to get more fluidity into their tenkan (backward pivot), which seems to work.

I've also been shown a toes out stance as a prelude to a roundhouse/side kick.

What about you? :)

[FngSaiYuk]

Y'know, I never paid particular attention, but I do transition into open and potentially vulnerable looking open toed stances when delivering power kicks and hits. The thing is, it's a transition for a power move, so since you're having to setup the power move in the first place, it's unlikely there's any opportunity to take advantage of the vulnerability of the transitional stance, given the proper setup in the first place.

I wouldn't use an open stance as a 'ready' or normal fighting stance - I've tried the whole wong fei hong 'welcome' stance in sparring and a good fighter will take advantage ::grin::

[Judge Pen]

A good fighter will take advantage of any stance if you are married to it. :D Someone with a fast lead leg can use the stance effectively, but it's weak against the shoot. If I use it, I don't stay in it long, just to evade and kick or bait someone into trying to press me so I can counter.

[rogue]

Do you pivot the foot on the heel or ball of the foot?

[FngSaiYuk]

Originally posted by rogue
Do you pivot the foot on the heel or ball of the foot?

Heel

[joedoe]

Doesn't Bagua use that kind of stance? Or am I picturing that incorrectly.

[omarthefish]

stepping =/= stance.

A toe out STEP is ultra common. . . followed by a toe IN step. That's how you walk. Taking that kind of position as a stance is just retarded.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by omarthefish
stepping =/= stance.

A toe out STEP is ultra common. . . followed by a toe IN step. That's how you walk.Why? (I appreciate this question may take a bit of time to answer!)

[Ray Pina]

Good post Judge Pen. ****, you guys actually doing some fighting over there at Shaolin-Do?;)

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
Good post Judge Pen. ****, you guys actually doing some fighting over there at Shaolin-Do?;)

Occasionally they teach me something useful. :p

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
A good pimp will take advantage of any woman if you are married to her. :D

[norther practitioner]

Well, in my longfist, we have a few different front stances. One has the toe pointed out and the back heel is up. The most common one is toe pointed in and heel down.

[Judge Pen]

Hey, that's abuse of moderator authority! :o :p

[omarthefish]

First of all, Northern Practitioner mentioned an exception I forgot about. It's still a kind of transitional thing but the twist stance technically is toe out. Properly 90 degrees out to the side.


Originally posted by Mat
Why? (I appreciate this question may take a bit of time to answer!)

Why what? I am a bit confused. Why walk like that? Or why step =/= stance?

With Bagua you could look at 3 basic possible orientations:

1. Footwork facing your opponent.
2. Stepping forward and to the side with your rear leg.
3. Stepping forward and to the side with your lead leg.

1. This looks pretty much the same as San Ti Shi. Technically you don't HAVE to go in from the side in Bagua. You can plow up the middle just like in Xing Yi.

2. Without getting distracted by a discusion of the internal mechanics and style by style comparisons this could be compared superficially to an "empty stance" if your still weighted on the back foot like when you switfh from neutral to sideways to slip a punch or if the weight is forward then it is like the way a boxer slips a jab and leans forward with a shot to the body.

3. This is the one that technically leaves you "toe out". But not from the perspective of your opponent. Take a right leg forward stance. Step off forward and to the left with your lead leg but twist your body to the right. In my imaginary example, the other guy is attacking and coming FORWAD at you. You also move forard but off line. You twist to the right keeping both hands up and facing the other guy. You have now outflanked him. BUT, this is still a snapshot of a transition. - you are momentarily "toe out".

As he has moved past you on your right depending on how things went and your relative positions, arms, momentum etc. you finish the move by either bringing the other foot around with a toe in step thus having thoroughly taken his back or you may untwist as you use the "wind up" created by the first step to sweep/throw/somethign else. The possibilities are endless. But one thing is fairly consistent throughout bagua and that is that most techniques are based on a combination of toe out and toe in (or toe in and toe out) stepping in sequence.

You see something very similar in many Aikido entering ("irimi" ?) thechniques.

[No_Know]

Toe out rolls the thigh to that side. This clears the path for the other thigh to pass to forward. Also, the knee being repositioned in space helps this passage of the thigh by yielding to the side the toe pointed. The closer to center the foot is, the more the knee must be relocated. Toe-out can be subtle or small, but there.

Mat, the foot matches the thigh. The straightout from arm hand matches the aftarm (bicep~covered bone).

Joints are gates or fences. You can get through if it is open enough or a big enough opening. Close the joint gate and the trying to move part cannot without adding damage to the gate if it does not yield.

Thighs have girth. Too close hampers movement. Toe in twists thigh rolling it in. This can cross the up down center of the body. Being basically symetrical, we need the center empty-ish and room for the thigh on the inside...Much like hitting a target ball with a cueball to cut, factor in the thickness.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by norther practitioner
Well, in my longfist, we have a few different front stances. One has the toe pointed out and the back heel is up. The most common one is toe pointed in and heel down.

what's it used for?

[norther practitioner]

Whatever the situation calls for....:D :p


Um, well the toes out is from a 'steal a step turn around'

I would associate it most with a hip throw I know from that motion, but it looks like an overtwisted palm.

[ShaolinTiger00]

fwiw, when you perform a roundhouse kick, you should step up and out, toes pointed out 45 degrees to open up your hips for the kick. (whether you pivot on the ball or just step is preference)

[norther practitioner]

I was just thinking of that same thing too ST00...

The only thing is I think I actually step over 45 degrees.. but then again I haven't thrown too many roundhouses lately (**** hammie)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
fwiw, when you perform a roundhouse kick, you should step up and out, toes pointed out 45 degrees to open up your hips for the kick. (whether you pivot on the ball or just step is preference)

that was actually the first thing I thought about.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by norther practitioner
Whatever the situation calls for....:D :p


Um, well the toes out is from a 'steal a step turn around'

I would associate it most with a hip throw I know from that motion, but it looks like an overtwisted palm.

how are you doing a hip throw from that position? can you describe it?

[norther practitioner]

Person in front of you, you are in a left foot forward stance... grab hip with left, shoulder (higher on body with right), start to turn to left, steal a step with the right continuing to turn (step should be with your right foot across there body, and hopefully a little past), toss bad dude, strike a pretty long fist pose...

[SevenStar]

okay, I gotcha - that's just the beginning of the throw - At first, I was thinking you were throwing him from that exact position...

[Mr Punch]

Nice posts Omar and No-know (haven't been around a while - what's up?).
No-Know
Thighs have girth. Too close hampers movement.Not sure I'd agree with this being the reason... or even a large package...! I would think it's more about using slack in the strong muscles at the crease of the thigh to get the twist of the pelvis but then I'm no anatomist!

ST00, that's what I was taught, and kind of what I was trying to say in my first post but was in a hurry...! Ai Lick'll probably pop up to make a snide crack in a minute! :rolleyes:

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
fwiw, when you perform a roundhouse kick, you should step up and out, toes pointed out 45 degrees to open up your hips for the kick. (whether you pivot on the ball or just step is preference) BTW, what did you mean 'step up'? Did you mean on the ball of your foot? Maybe we're not talking about quite the same thing after all...

[norther practitioner]

Originally posted by SevenStar
okay, I gotcha - that's just the beginning of the throw - At first, I was thinking you were throwing him from that exact position...

No, that is the end of the throw.. the pose, the "flowery crap"

you start in anything that has the left foot forward stance... empty, boxer, front (albeit a bit harder), etc...

[SevenStar]

if you finish in that stance, wouldn't your toes be pointed either forward on inward, as opposed to outward?

[norther practitioner]

They could be.. but are not; during that whole sequence though, there are a couple of instances where your toes are pointed out, at the end.. it is to emphasis on the twist, as your one foot is forward, but your other hand is extended.

[SevenStar]

I must be on crack... I can't see it...you a hip throwing the guy to your inside, right? so, since you are twisting inside to throw him, why point your toes in the opposite direction?


Wait....are you facing the opposite direction at the end of the throw?

[norther practitioner]

yeah dude...
a complete 180

[SevenStar]

aight, that makes more sense.are you throwing over your hip, or over your leg?

[norther practitioner]

ideally over your hip, but ya know, after you step through, it can be your leg, or another variation is to kick back and try to sweep.