Question that's been bugging me for a while...

[Mr Punch]

Hi. :)

Why do you do chain punches?

In wing chun I've often heard hit the centre with the nearest weapon. Well, if you've punched once, your nearest weapon is the same fist!

This one especially to those that don't turn their hips to deliver a punch...

Cheers!

[Phil Redmond]

You're right sometimes you can strike more than once with the same fist. Especially if you have one limb pinned. But if you knock your opponent back out of reach it does'nt hurt to step forward and use the other hand as well. It all depends on the situation. Plus, chain punching using the hip gives you more power. I can't see effective punches without using the hip.
PR

[monkeyspoon]

After reading this I went to my wall bag and tried some continuous punches using one hand, then chain punches with both hands. I personally found that by replacing one punch with the hand in the cyclic motion i was able to all either hand to relax and then 'fire' in intermittant bursts far quicker than by using one hand. My own view on chain punching is that once you have gained access with the initial punch you simply repeat the process with both hands continuously to not give the opponent a chance to recover from the shock. I mention this, though it may be obvious to all of you, because i get the impression some people view 'lin wan kuen' chain punching as a general all round technique for intiating. Surely chain punching is merely the result that follows from achieving that first clean strike to the opponent after any bridging, stepping and structure breaking techniques that preceed it. If you are able to achieve the same speed and power by using one hand constantly as with chain punching then i guess you are absolutely corrrect, but i feel when i chain punch i am doubling the effect.....what does everyone think?

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I mention this, though it may be obvious to all of you, because I get the impression some people view 'lin wan kuen' chain punching as a general all round technique for initiating. Surely chain punching is merely the result that follows from achieving that first clean strike to the opponent after any bridging, stepping and structure breaking techniques that preceed it."


BINGO.

[planetwc]

In his tape on this topic, he mentions how Bruce Lee would use chain punching as a disruptive technique. Lee's americanized term for it was the "straiight blast".

A short rapid fire attack that would disorient and stun the opponent. Followed immediately by other attacks to take them out. His demonstrations from a JKD standpoint made sense from their conceptual framework.

This was in contrast to some of the demos you see out on the net were people load up like locomotives and chase around the room pumping like mad towards their target.

[reneritchie]

the punch is only one element of the linked chain cycles. If you don't need the other elements, you can just punch. If you don't have the other elements and do need them, you'll be in trouble.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
I can't see effective punches without using the hip.
PR I said without turning the hip, just to clarify...

Me meither Phil, but I've met some who have advocated not turning the hip, and swinging/thrusting it in pendulum-like as you step in, which somewhat makes me want to ask, how do you get power on the subsequent hits after the first...?!


monkeyspoon
After reading this I went to my wall bag and tried some continuous punches using one hand, then chain punches with both hands. I personally found that by replacing one punch with the hand in the cyclic motion i was able to all either hand to relax and then 'fire' in intermittant bursts far quicker than by using one hand. Well put Owen. So are you saying that you are putting power in from the hip? And if so, does it move?! Or is it all coming from the pecs, lats and arm muscles?

If none of the above, how are you able to get more power by chain punching than by punching with one hand?
Surely chain punching is merely the result that follows from achieving that first clean strike to the opponent after any bridging, stepping and structure breaking techniques that preceed it.Disagree.
planetwc
A short rapid fire attack that would disorient and stun the opponent. Followed immediately by other attacks to take them out.Agree. I got this from my teacher (wing chun - I've never done JKD) who said it with the caveat that change the technique if you need to, and the reason you will often need to for a 'finisher' is because when the opponent is reaching foetal shutdown (lol! or whatever else you wanna call the position!), the points that you're gonna need to hit to keep him on the floor are gonna be the ones that are covered up to chain punches.
This was in contrast to some of the demos you see out on the net were people load up like locomotives and chase around the room pumping like mad towards their target.They tend to **** me off! :D
Rene
the punch is only one element of the linked chain cycles. If you don't need the other elements, you can just punch. If you don't have the other elements and do need them, you'll be in trouble.Surely you're talking about a training setting, ie you train chain 'cycles', so for eg if you chain punch but meet resistance so a punch becomes a pak, and that has too much resistance so it becomes a jum or a bong/fak or something? But do you often use a sequence of chain punching in chi sao?

[SAAMAG]

I created a thread like this a while back...asking about whether or not chain punches were overused in the average wing chun kwoon.

The chain punch should not be a goal, nor should it be proactively initiated by the defender. All techniques comes because they were "triggered" by the aggressor. You don't create tan sau, the attacker does....if that makes sense...you don't create the lin wan kuen, the attacker does.

Chain punching to me is relied upon much too often, and you see it all over the place. To me the chain punch is more reliable as a momentary tool, to set up for something else or as the last of the finish (not constantly pumping like a mad ***** even when not in range to hit). It's extemely easy to defend against as well, simply by way of it's mechanics, any seasoned/good fighter, would be able to dispose of them relatively easily.

[monkeyspoon]

When i tried the chain punching against the repetitive punching from one hand i felt that by relaxing one hand while the other striked allowed for eeach hand to go through quick 'relax-strike' cycles, while one hand relaxed after striking, the other struck etc. In that instance i did not use my hips, i imagine in a fight i would be stepping forward while doing this. Maybe all this tells me is that i should work on striking with one hand repetitively as it's something that could be improved. How do other people feel about this? what do you notice on your wall bags/against opponents etc?

[stuartm]

Hi Owen,

The use of the hips / waist or 'Yiu Ma' should become an integral part of your wing chun in time, and you will be conscious of it in your techniques. When you are conscious of it you will begin to understand how to use it.

As for the chain punch , it has been discussed on this forum a number of times over the last 18 months or so ( I think i commented in the thread Vankuen started a while back) As with any technique, there is no set application, but I would say that i am not signed-up to this idea of it being a failsafe technique to keep in your arsenal, as whenever i have sparred I have needed a much wider range of techniques, in particular effective footwork. You seem to be on the right lines by concentrating on 'sung lik' or relaxation.


LWK can be a good entry / defensive technique, but it can only be part of your response. We all know that fights arent like in the videos where are opponents are compliant. Somebody posted a video recently of a guy with fast hands, but as i recall, the other guy dropped his arms and let his opponent show the good stuff.

This is not how it goes IMHO. Even if someone is getting the better of you , it is your human instinct to cover up even if you dont fight back. Either way you are not compliant.

I have seen so many people doing LWK ten-to-the-dozen trying to beat the speed of light , but rarely do you see structure behind it. All the 'power' (and i use the term loosely) comes from the elbow because thats whats been drummed into a lot of people by the text books. The power has to come from the floor. This is why we 'hoi ma' (open the stance) slowly in order to develop our connection and root with the ground. When you start to understand it, then the power comes from the root not just isolated muscles.

Before I arrived at Wing Chun I had a truly excellent Tai Chi teacher, who when he hit you , you fely like you had been bulldozed and you were always left with this feeling of complete phyisical shock internally. That is nothing more than efficient transfer of power - no mystics, chi, spinal wipping and a lot of the other bull that turns people off kung fu - just physics ! When a boxer jabs, his punch relaxes off completely afterwards , ready to hit again. Same principles coming thruogh.

The same principles should apply in Jic Kuen / LWK - how efficient are we being in utilising our power. Im sure Sifu Wong SHun Leung said something along the lines of 'better to have 1 short sharp knife than 10 long dull ones' (apologies to wong stylist for my appalling memory !! :) )

As for practising the chain punch, i tell my students to work hard on the bag and make each individual punch count, focusing on using all of your body to hit through the bag, via your connection to the floor. When you start to develop a feel for this (if you havent already) start applying it in a double punch.

If nothing else we must be able to hit hard, so that theres no need for the next 33 punches !!!!!

Peace, Stu;)

[monkeyspoon]

do you perform chain punches with juen ma, turning stance? if i use chain punching id be stepping forward. so on a side note do you perform turning punches when using a lan sau to pin and a strike to the face for example? (i feel i want to point out im not questioning in a way to sugest i disagree with what you have said, i am humbly curious). I use juen ma kuen usually, of course if i use techniques such as tan da or lap sau it is natural.

[monkeyspoon]

oh i want to just add that im not one of those that confronts an opponent by chasing them around the room with chain punches. although i did that once when i did blindfolded chi sau and my partner broke contact and stepped back with no warning. Im not nearly at biu tze level, but i understand there is a mun da techniques in the form, is it meant to be to gain initial contact and/or strike?

[stuartm]

Hi Owen,

LWK can be used with Biu Bo, Juen Ma, - doent really matter. Juen Ma and Yiu Ma are separate - my si-gung Ip Ching explains that Yiu Ma is about actually incorporating the waist in the stance so that it becomes an intergral part of the movement rather than a by-product.

..this is going to be difficult to explain on a forum.....:rolleyes: , and im a little bit confused to what you mean. In respect of the lan sau, can you elaborate, otherwsie well start a whole new discussion on lan sau !!!!

When your partner broke contact you emlpoyed 'lat sao jic kuen' which is far more important to understand that the punch itself. If your reaction was to thrust forward then youve hit the nail on the head!

'Mun Sau' (Da is 'hit') is a bit of a sticking point / misnomer for me as we dont use that term in Ip Ching Wing Chun, and im always a little confused as to why people refer to it as fak sau in SLT and CK, but Mun Sau in Biu Jee.

If you look at the Biu Jee form the movement is just a fak sau, except it starts at from a lower point and arcs upwards to cover a wider area. The Fak Sau can be used to clear (as in th dummy) as well as strike amongst other things. The same goes for the first section of Chum Kiu, once youve completed the first three pie jarn movements, your hands chop forward in fak sau, not biu sau. Biu sau thrusts in a straight line, fak chops from the elbow.

As for techniques to gain contact, you learn them from day one. A lot of people ( and again. im not saying you Owen;) ) really believe that they only begin to learn these techniques at Chum Kiu. It is the range of movement within Chum kiu that is allowing you to not only make contact, but to make contact in the proper way, with the correct structure and angles.

As for techniques to make 'initial' contact, in a fight I want my initial contact to deter you from coming back at me. So what do I do....punch, kick, chop etc..... Once i make contact, i can apply the sensitivities we learn through Gor sau.

Just my opinion though Owen:D

Stu

[monkeyspoon]

you know stuart, having this conversation is quite silly when you are only in swansea. im not sure if i want to attend other classes or pay for private lessons at this point. but if you ever want to get together let me know. im nowhere near any advanced stage, so things i learn from my class are things you naturally will have done when you were a part of it. however, i intend to be open minded and would like to understand the differences between your approach to wing chun and others i know, so the offer is there....i'm prepared to come to you with my empty cup and all that :D

[stuartm]

Owen,

You are indeed mystic - I was just about to repost giving you the offer. And dont worry, Im not touting for business, I do what i do and if people like it good, if not - thats fine too.

I train most Saturday and Sunday mornings with my private students so why not call in this weekend for some chi sao, discussion and i'll even throw in a cup of Green Tea !!!

I am very open with the little knowledge thats stored within my pea-brain (!), but have trained with a number of people and so hopefully youll take something away;)

Give me a call on 07816 877159, or call into Manselton Community Centre on Saturday around 1pm

Stuart