Wing Tsun Sport??

[william]

I was on an EBMAS site the other day and saw this being advertised.

A Wing Tsun fighting championship of some sort or another.

The rational behind it was to bring Wing Tsun practioners up to the level of boxers, tai boxers, BJJ and MMA practictioners. (And to encourage more free sparring)

Stating that althought Wing Tsun is primarily for self-defence the likehood of attact in this age and society is slim, so motivation to train all out, to reach the highest levels, is not at apparent as in say boxing, where the motivation comes from knowing your next full contct fight with a highly skilled practitioner is round to corner.

Anone got on any thoughts on this? Good idea? Bad idea?

[monkeyspoon]

hmm, my town can be quite rough at times (im aware an awful lot are). So seeing fights break out over nothing in town makes me feel all too aware that my next fight could be round the corner. But my main motivation is that i enjoy training :)

[t_niehoff]

I do have a few thoughts on the matter . . .

First, the idea of a wing chun fighting championship or anything exclusive to WCK is a poor idea. We need to be able to make our stuff work against anyone, not just other WCK practitioners. When we stick to ourselves, we only make ourselves weaker.

Second, the whole notion of "self-defense" or "streetfighting" is a dead-end. What we want are fighting skills (increased performance) that we can use regardless of the venue. The whole idea of "self-defense' and "streetfighting" is built on "dirt" -- using foul tactics, etc. -- things that cannot be tested or trained realistically. What that boils down to is "dirt" is theory. "Dirt" may sometimes work against a scrub but won't work against someone skilled. Good stuff, the stuff you can practice realistically against genuinely resisting opponents at intensity, will work against scrubs but also work against skilled folks. Don't train for the "street" or for "self-defense" -- train to develop fighting skills that will work anywhere.

Third, the reason WCK doesn't have many practitioners that have attained higher levels of fighting skill (though there are some) is because of the culture of WCK -- the overwhelming majority of people teaching it (including the name grandmasters) have no real skill (and have never fought anyone good in their lives) but think they do, they are teaching folks that don't want to fight and don't want to do the work to develop the skill to fight but who take everything on hearsay from their master who has never fought and has no skill (but the student thinks they do), and so it has become an "intellectual" theoretical pursuit where the goal is to become good at chi sao and perhaps indulge in some role-playing.

Fourth, fortunately times are changing. The popularity of vale tudo, NHB, "no rules" fights have refocused martial arts on what the focus should have been all along -- developing greater fighting skills. Some in WCK have embraced that. But there is a lot of resistance -- it threatens rice bowls, ego, etc. IMHO WCK is at a crossroad.

[Kevin Bell]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by t_niehoff
[B]I do have a few thoughts on the matter . . .

First, the idea of a wing chun fighting championship or anything exclusive to WCK is a poor idea. We need to be able to make our stuff work against anyone, not just other WCK practitioners. When we stick to ourselves, we only make ourselves weaker.

Agreed!

Second, the whole notion of "self-defense" or "streetfighting" is a dead-end. What we want are fighting skills (increased performance) that we can use regardless of the venue. The whole idea of "self-defense' and "streetfighting" is built on "dirt" -- using foul tactics, etc. -- things that cannot be tested or trained realistically. What that boils down to is "dirt" is theory. "Dirt" may sometimes work against a scrub but won't work against someone skilled. Good stuff, the stuff you can practice realistically against genuinely resisting opponents at intensity, will work against scrubs but also work against skilled folks. Don't train for the "street" or for "self-defense" -- train to develop fighting skills that will work anywhere.

Agreed

Third, the reason WCK doesn't have many practitioners that have attained higher levels of fighting skill (though there are some) is because of the culture of WCK -- the overwhelming majority of people teaching it (including the name grandmasters) have no real skill (and have never fought anyone good in their lives) but think they do, they are teaching folks that don't want to fight and don't want to do the work to develop the skill to fight but who take everything on hearsay from their master who has never fought and has no skill (but the student thinks they do), and so it has become an "intellectual" theoretical pursuit where the goal is to become good at chi sao and perhaps indulge in some role-playing.

Agreed, but with the last sentance you cant force people out of their comfort zones if they dont want to come.


Fourth, fortunately times are changing. The popularity of vale tudo, NHB, "no rules" fights have refocused martial arts on what the focus should have been all along -- developing greater fighting skills. Some in WCK have embraced that. But there is a lot of resistance -- it threatens rice bowls, ego, etc. IMHO WCK is at a crossroad.

If Wing Chun is at a crossroad as you say what do you suggest to take it forward? I dont personally believe it is. I think what you're seeing is traditionlist/progressiveness, old school/new school, interpretation of technique/concept who's right or wrong, armchair generals to people who put it on the line, lineage b#ll, money to earn people to rubbish etc. Is this what you refer to?

Good post

[AndrewS]

Hey Terence,

the idea is to get people used to fighting and to develop fighters inside EBMAS before they go out and fight in MMA events. It's suboptimal, and I'm not fond of the rules, but it's a step in the right direction.

Andrew

[t_niehoff]

Andrew,

I agree that it is a step in the right direction.

-----------

Kevin Bell wrote:

If Wing Chun is at a crossroad as you say what do you suggest to take it forward?

**Most of the BS stems from one source -- landswimming. So I think we in WCK need to stop being landswimmers, we should get in the pool, and challenge everyone else to do the same. Don't stand for landswimming; call folks on it. As more and more folks get in the pool, the landswimmers will find it more and more difficult to sell their dry goods. They'll be seen for what they are. If we don't, WCK will be lost. Lineages don't preserve WCK -- fighters preserve -- or more accurately, renew -- WCK. No fighters, no WCK.

I dont personally believe it is. I think what you're seeing is traditionlist/progressiveness, old school/new school, interpretation of technique/concept who's right or wrong, armchair generals to people who put it on the line, lineage b#ll, money to earn people to rubbish etc. Is this what you refer to?

**Actually, I think the so-called "traditional" view expoused by so many isn't how our ancestors really approached things -- it is what has been sold to many as the traditional view. Yip Man said "go out and test it, I may be tricking you." He came up with the dry-land swimming metaphor (that Bruce used and later came to be identified with). Sum Nung fought as part of his training. Leung Jan, Yip Man, Sum Nung, Yeun Kay-San, etc. -- these weren't landswimmers, they were fighters, innovators.

Good post

**Thanks! :)

[Neo]

First, the idea of a wing chun fighting championship or anything exclusive to WCK is a poor idea. We need to be able to make our stuff work against anyone, not just other WCK practitioners. When we stick to ourselves, we only make ourselves weaker.
Tend to disagree and as AndrewS says, it's a step in the right direction. The grappling systems have competitions that are purely grappling, even style specific, e.g. judo. I don't think that they are detrimental to their system. What Antonio wrote in his rules that he published was that other types of attacks are allowed from other martial arts, but that wing chun defences/attacks would score higher as they are trying to promote the use of their techniques and not just make it a MMA competition. There is also some penalisation if you fail to defend against a non-WT attack if I remember rightly. While it seems that there is some disagreement on the EBMAS forum about the scoring methodology and the control of power in the semi contact tournies, I think it's a step in the right direction to promote a more challenging way of training, instead of the usual "we don't do sparring as wing chun isn't a sport" c**p that comes out of some wing chun / WT instructors / establishments.