Dealing with body shots in fighting in chi sao range

[Vankuen]

Hey everyone, I was sparring the other day with a muay thai fighter, who was also an elementary student in wing chun. (not to say that Im not...but)

Well often times I would myself getting hit with a lot of body shots as I would go to biu or tan or bong a high shot to my head, he would immediately hit me with a lower cross or or something to that effect. The always tried to stay to the outside gate, keeping both of his arms to one side, however even then he would be able to come around and hit me with that other arm using footwork.

What hand forms and stance combinations do you all usually use to deal with body shots? What am I doing wrong possibly? I appreciate any help from all you advanced wing chun people.

"From one thing know ten thousand" - Miyomato Musashi, Book of five rings

[hunt1]

Van this has been said many times before and now you understand why.Dont block>You are chasing hands and therefore 1 step behind your opponent thus getting hit.This is a complex topic and something your Sifu should teach if he knows.
Now to basics try using a gan sao 1hand covers high mid the other coves mid-low.When you Bui to cover high your other hand should be a wu covering your chest/ribs placed under the bui.Foot work is a must.If you bong(not commenting on this as a block)your wu must be in position to cover other areas and you must use footwork to move.
You must be aggresive move into your opponents space at this point inside or outside gate doesnt matter.Being offensive will provide better defense.If he is able to change attack lines use 2nd hand or kick you are standing still.This is caused by chasing hands trying to block the first attack.You are blocking while he has already moved on.

[dzu]

You need to give him pressure from initial contact and break his structure. Make the connection and he can't start his next motion because you control him.

I also prefer the outside gate because it's generally safer. If he is still able to turn and hit you with the far hand with hooks and uppercuts, you aren't affecting his center (or maybe you need to work more on sensitivty to feel his turn or shift).

Dzu

[EmptyCup]

You can use gang sau, low bong, chap sau, gum sau with stance shifting, and chum jang (sinking your elbow)

[Roy D. Anthony]

Although in a utopian way we should be the agressor, however what happens if we don't move first. We must understand both situations, not just the utopian one. Yin and Yang afterall. :)

[This message was edited by Roy D. Anthony on 09-30-01 at 06:44 PM.]

[hunt1]

I have always found combat methods difficult to fully put into short writings like this due to the many possibilities that arise.However for my own teaching based on my learning and experience I divide things as follows.
The best: you read, sense, etc your opponents intention and move first.
Next you see movement are react aggresively occupy his space ,control inside or outside gate etc.
Next movement comes but you are to slow to move in therefore a diagonal step back or a 90 degree chum kui step to get out of attack line and/or to gain safe distance followed by immediate spring back into opponent attacking when his weapon is spent ,at full extension or in act of retraction.
Last attack comes and you are slow to move,caught by surprise or flat footed etc.this is where shifting,chi gerk ,zone cover or blocks come into play.
I agree in a perfect world we would all do the first thing.Reality is the bottom 2 are the most common situations.Fatigue plays a big part especially when sparring.

[Roy D. Anthony]

Exactly My Point! :)

[Jeff Brown]

Since fatigue is a reality that we can all count upon, how do you train against that?

[hunt1]

Setting aside the obvious cardio training energy usage is key to dealing with fatigue and confidence in your WC.
On this i take a page from Yip Chun.He can chi sao for hours.He does this by only exerting energy when necessary.He spends most of his time very relaxed.Tension causes fatigue so confidence in your WC is really the only way to get past tension while sparring or fighting.I achieved some level of confidence through lots of long chi sao and inviting all friends classmates etc to attack me when ever they saw me.
Now for example to keep sharp when a martial artist comes to me to learn WC or with questions about it etc I demonstate by telling them to attack me however they want as hard as they want.
I dont have someone throw a jab for example to demonstate how WC deals with one.When ever they feel comfortable they can attack anyway the want to.
So put yourself in surprise situations that are safe,with friends.do lots of chi sao and learn when you need to apply energy and when you dont.

[Jeff Brown]

Good answer, Hunt, thanks.

Among cardio training exercises, however, which do you deem most valuable? I had long thought that jogging was king but now understand that it trains fast twitch muscle to twitch slowly. I still jog but also bike and jump rope, in the hope of building not only endurance but speed and coordination as well.

Any other suggestions?

[fmann]

"Jogging" is also bad for the knees as opposed to "running" due to the short stride-length.

Good cardio can be developed the way we are talking about -- sparring, mat work, etc. are great cardio workouts. In addition, you work your technique to the limit of your cardio-fitness and see what you can do when you're straining for breath.

Otherwise, do something fun as opposed to just jogging. Football, basketball, etc..

[Jeff Brown]

I totally agree with the idea, "the best way to improve your Wing Chun is to practice Wing Chun!" And I do. Between classes, however, I think extra training is required. football, etc. sounds great (played basketball recently for hours) but sometimes hard to get others out.

what about hill-sprints (running up short, steep inclines)? anyone do these?

[hunt1]

When i was more of a fighter,now I am an old fat married man being driven crazy by kids and work),I jumped rope for 30 to 45 min non stop and ran hills.Also lots of fast shadow boxing and moving pad work.A partner holds a heavy pad and moves around and you move after it attacking.3 min of this feels like running 10 miles .At least to me it does.

[wongfeilung809]

i dont know about any other schools but we train "gate reflexes" we have six gates and train, them in class, we switch guard, one punch.. up to three random, so, to try to answer your question, once you have made contact if you see any movment you so be able to pick it off, and the more you work with that one person the easier it becomes...hope that helps, i doubt it..
simpleangles

[whippinghand]

I don't think that, in a "real" situation, whatever you guys deem as one, you will have a second chance.

[Vankuen]

I appreciate all the comments here. I think I was either just having a bad day, or maybe Ive learned his way of moving, I manage to catch his low shots more often now, only get hit once in a while, but hey Im human.

But I feel much better though because I choked him out and made him tap with some BJJ the next day. **** he's got a big neck though! hahahahaha!

If you wanna see the guy Im talking about, check out my website. I'll see you guys around the forum!

Thanks again everyone.

"From one thing know ten thousand" - Miyomato Musashi, Book of five rings

[whippinghand]

It's all about the technique, right Vankuen....?

[wingchunalex]

use jam gaun (jam sau and guan sau done at the same time) to block low and high attacks, that way there is less of an opening. and or. just stay on center for low and high attacks, jus bend your knees to block the low strike, it just lowers, but doesn't structuraly change, your arm position.

know yourself don't show yourself, think well of yorself don't tell of yourself. lao tzu

[whippinghand]

What angle should the arms be at, in order to take the contact of the kick? Are you sure your arms can take it, or that you can rotate(shift) enough to take it?