Assorted "fight" video clips

[Phil Redmond]

I thought I'd start a thread to share video clips of fights (real or not), so that we can see what's out there. Here's my contribution. Royce Gracie vs. 450lb Sumo wrestler.
http://www.wrestlezone.com/junk/AkebonoVsRoyce.wmv
PR

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Did you mean to say...Royce...Gracie?
Oops, I was thinking in Spanish/Portuguese. I'll go back and edit it.
Phil

[chisauking]

You mean Royce and the BLOB with absolutely no hitting skills whatsoever

[Phil Redmond]

This is indicative of what some street fights are like.
There is foul language on this clip.
http://www.muchosucko.com/video-bareknuckle.html
PR

[mortal]

Exactly no skills.

Over committed punching.

Dropping hands when they attack.

Wild flailing arms.

No power generation from the ground.

No ground skills.

Laughable.

[Shadowboxer]

This is why you keep your hands up.

[old jong]

In TKD,they always have their hands down and feet up!...;)

And I used to do that stuff about 20 years ago!...:p

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by old jong
In TKD,they always have their hands down and feet up!...;)

And I used to do that stuff about 20 years ago!...:p

Tabernac (sp)? You trying to sound old? ;)
Phil

[old jong]

Hey Tabarnac!...:D We are only a few years apart!...:D

[Matrix]

Originally posted by old jong
In TKD,they always have their hands down and feet up!...;)

And I used to do that stuff about 20 years ago!...:p It depends on which federation they belong to. In the Olympic style (WTF - interesting acronym ;) ) they are training for sport and looking for points. Since punching to the head is illegal :rolleyes: , and more points are scored for kicks in general, and kicks to the head, then this is how the sport has evolved.

Like OJ, I used to do TKD, and I know some of these guys can really kick hard. If you know what to do, they are also easily defeated.

[old jong]

The ITF is the other federation and it is a lot more "traditional".They are more like Shotokan,witch was the true origin of TKD,whatever they might say it was founded by Lucy 4 millions years ago in the australopithecus era!
Basicaly,they punch more and use standard karate types blocks.They also have kata designed for belt levels.

[old jong]

Now,I want to see some gals fighting in jell-o!...;)

[Airdrawndagger]

That was great! That kid kicked the sh*t out a the other guy...

[rogue]

Originally posted by Shadowboxer
This is why you keep your hands up. The hands stay down because of the WTF rules. If the the kick hits the hands and lands it's considered an ineffective block and the kicker gets the point. WTF fighters score by trembling shock so it's safer to use movement instead of hands. It's a sport guys.

Phil, you should have added the rule that posters can only criticize if they post a video of themselve fighting or sparring. And chi sau doesn't count.

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by rogue
The hands stay down because of the WTF rules. If the the kick hits the hands and lands it's considered an ineffective block and the kicker gets the point. WTF fighters score by trembling shock so it's safer to use movement instead of hands. It's a sport guys.

Phil, you should have added the rule that posters can only criticize if they post a video of themselve fighting or sparring. And chi sau doesn't count.
I personally admire those kids for their ability even though it isn't WC ;)
PR

[rogue]

BTW Phil, I do like what you and Victor are doing.

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by rogue
BTW Phil, I do like what you and Victor are doing.
Thanks lots Rogue. Here's one I 'ganked' from the kung fu forum.
http://www.icbo.de/video-dateien/041016-highlights.wmv
PR

[Askari Hodari]

http://www.tkd.risp.pl/Juras_HL_Extreme.wmv
I got this off of Bullshido. Its "Exteme" TKD.

This clip is very large. It is also very interesting.

[Phil Redmond]

From the Kung Fu forum
"Short clip from the film "Blood on The Sun" Circa 1945 starring James Cagney. First time America got to see asian martial arts in a hollywood feature."

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=570117#post570117
Look for the post from Kung Lek. The clips reads 'Cagney Do'
PR

[old jong]

Ha! Ha! I remember that one!...But I think the movie "Tokyo Joe" with Humphrey Bogart is even older.
It featured A secret agent using Ju-Jitsu (Jap!) in his work and the original "Kato" idea:His Japanese assistant instructed to attack him randomly for training.

BTW,isn't it ironic that after this awesome Judo display,Cagney is put out by a simple karate chop?...;) Hollywood?...:D

[Phil Redmond]

Man I just love my Warrior jong. :) You can hit it full power with fists, elbows, knees, etc. I've even seen someone head butt one.
http://www.thewarrior.com
http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/freestylejong.mpeg
PR

[Theorb]

OJ say:isn't it ironic that after this awesome Judo display,Cagney is put out by a simple karate chop?

no no not karate it is special super secret WC knife hand only taught to china police tong 100 year ago...first display of WC long before bruce lee


:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by old jong
Ha! Ha! I remember that one!...But I think the movie "Tokyo Joe" with Humphrey Bogart is even older.
It featured A secret agent using Ju-Jitsu (Jap!) in his work and the original "Kato" idea:His Japanese assistant instructed to attack him randomly for training.

BTW,isn't it ironic that after this awesome Judo display,Cagney is put out by a simple karate chop?...;) Hollywood?...:D
Hey OJ,
Blood in The Sun (1945)
http://www.imdb.com/find?q=Blood%20on%20The%20Sun;tt=on;nm=on;mx=20

Tokyo Joe (1949)
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0041967/?fr=c2l0ZT1kZnxteD0yMHxzZz0xfGxtPTIwMHx0dD1vbnxwbj 0wfHE9VG9reW8gSm9lfGh0bWw9MXxubT1vbg__;fc=1;ft=7
PR

[old jong]

Phil!
Here I am,standing corrected!....;)
Thanks!

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by old jong
Phil!
Here I am,standing corrected!....;)
Thanks!
Hey, I wasn't sure myself. Do you also know that Cagney got flack from fans because he "kicked" a guy in the movie? Back then kicking wasn't considered fair fighting. Imagine what they would think of fighting now. I remember as a kid that if more than one person was fighting you anyone of the street would break it up so the fight would be one on one. Nowadays you can see boot parties on one indivudal and no one intervenes.
PR

[old jong]

Hey Phil!
I know what you mean and those days are not so far away...(IMO)!...
I still remember that I never used kick when I was fighting as a kid. I had learned some boxing and used it a lot in the school yard or whatever.We had to fight "clean" in those days!...It was like chievalry (SP?) We were having duels with all the rules.We even had a choice between "wrestling" or "boxing" and we had to stand by the accepted rules for honnor.Things change a lot!...Now,they will gang up on a poor kid with machettes if he dare to wear a cap or coat with the bad color in the bad neighborhood.Sad!

[Ultimatewingchun]

Cool thread, Phil.

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Cool thread, Phil.
Thanks Victor.
UFC Knockouts
http://members.cox.net/kobebryant/martial%20arts%20ufc_knockout.asf
PR

[Phil Redmond]

UFC Ortiz vs Tanner
http://www.fugly.com/media/MOVIES/PAINFUL/ufc30_ortiz_vs_tanner.wmv
PR

[Phil Redmond]

Protect your valuables. :)
http://www.defend.net/misc/thaiboxingvideo.php
PR

[Matrix]

Now that's comedy! :D

Phil,
You're becoming a regular BlockBuster Video.

Thanks,

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by Matrix
Now that's comedy! :D

Phil,
You're becoming a regular BlockBuster Video.

Thanks,
You're welcome and there's no late fees . . .grin.
Phil

[Phil Redmond]

This has been around for some time but maybe some haven't seen it.
http://media.ebaumsworld.com/index.php?e=kickbreak.mpeg
PR

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey Guys,
I had to put this one in here.
It's the smackfest 2005 over at Hot 97 in New York.
Some of the new yorkers on the list should see if they can get invloved.

Slapping people for money :eek:

http://www.hot97.com/music/exclusives.aspx?origin=nav

J

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by Jeff Bussey
Hey Guys,
I had to put this one in here.
It's the smackfest 2005 over at Hot 97 in New York.
Some of the new yorkers on the list should see if they can get invloved.

Slapping people for money :eek:

http://www.hot97.com/music/exclusives.aspx?origin=nav

J
Whew, those clips are way out there Jeff. I've never seen anything like that before. NYC is a crazy town.:eek:
Phil

[Jeff Bussey]

Man Phil,
I gotta agree.
Funny thing is when I visited NY I felt right at home

:D

[Askari Hodari]

The second one is for the bandwith impaired.

http://www.ebmas.net/video/DragonFest.rm
http://www.ebmas.net/video/DragonFestsmall.rm

[Phil Redmond]

Dale, were you impressed with the WC on these clips? I loved that conga.
http://www.ebmas.net/video/DragonFest.rm
http://www.ebmas.net/video/DragonFestsmall.rm
PR

[Phil Redmond]

http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/WC_NHB.mpeg

[Phil Redmond]

http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/WCvsMantis.wmv

[Phil Redmond]

http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/BJJvsKF.avi
http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/JJvsShotokan.wmv

[VingDragon]

what kungfu style it is? (http://photos.imageevent.com/vingdragon/os/bum-fu.wmv) :confused:








:D

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by VingDragon
what kungfu style it is? (http://photos.imageevent.com/vingdragon/os/bum-fu.wmv) :confused:

:D

Funny.:D

[Phil Redmond]

http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/MMAvsK.wmv
PR

[Phil Redmond]

http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/MMAvsKF.avi
PR

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Dale, were you impressed with the WC on these clips? I loved that conga.
http://www.ebmas.net/video/DragonFest.rm
http://www.ebmas.net/video/DragonFestsmall.rm
PR Those were demos.Watching demos like that and thinking that that is how real fights happen is the typical non-fighter's view of the world. In demos such as those, one person is attacking, while the other one counters. The person doing the countering never has to worry about taking a real hit or the opponent resisting. Taking hits and a resisisting opponent who does not go down easily is more often what happens in reality and this is where people's theoretical techniques fail them.

Demos like that are a good marketing strategy and are necessary to get new students and have a successful MA business, but they are not indicative of real fighting.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/WC_NHB.mpeg Another example of theory failing in the reality of a fighting situation. Beneteau was mounted and raining down straight bombs. Theoretically, all Cansio had to do was maintain his centerline and use his WC training to stop those blows. As the clip shows, however, reality is different from theory.

[SAAMAG]

Dale, in reality the person failed. Not the techniques. I've actually been in the guard and had people punching down at me, and although sometimes I just covered up, I also used wing chun theory to thread through the punches, though in that position it's sometimes better to pickaboo your counterpunches....

[Phil Redmond]

http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/KShamrock1.mpg
PR

[Phil Redmond]

http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/FrankShamrock.mpg

[Phil Redmond]

http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/Pride1.mpg
http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/UFCknockouts.mpg

[Phil Redmond]

http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/OyamaSpar.wmv
PR

[Phil Redmond]

Interesting clip of Bruce Lee sparring with protective gear.
http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/BruceLee_spar.mpeg
PR

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/Pride1.mpg
http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/UFCknockouts.mpg Hey Phil,

These two videos seem to be missing. All others work well.

Thanks again for all of your effort.
It's great appreciated.

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by Matrix
Hey Phil,

These two videos seem to be missing. All others work well.

Thanks again for all of your effort.
It's great appreciated.

I took them down. Did you want to see them again?
PR

[Matrix]

If it's not to much to ask.
Yes, Please...

[Phil Redmond]

http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/VanderleiSilva.mpg
PR

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by Matrix
If it's not to much to ask.
Yes, Please...
I'll try to get them back up tommorrow.
Phil

[Phil Redmond]

http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/UFCKnockouts1.mpg

http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/Pride1.mpg
PR

[Matrix]

Thanks Phil....

[Phil Redmond]

It was during the TWC tour to the Shaolin Temple last year. Cheung Sifu and some TWC people went to the Shaolin Temple. There was supposed to be a private sparring match between the TWC guys and the monks. Word got back to our guys hotel room that the monks were going to change the plans and spar in public and try to show the WC guys up. There was tension the day of the event. Shannon Moore didn't know of the plans because his hotel room was away from the others.
During a demonstration by the Monks Sifu Shannon Moore asked how they dealt with random multiple attacks. Moore wanted to try out one of the students in a "friendly" manner because he felt the tension in the room. It seems as though the younger monks were pretty arrogant.
The head fighting Abbot said that he would demonstrate with Moore instead of the students. Anyway, Shannon Moore smacked the monk in the face twice with a lauh sau/pak. The monk then tried to grab Shannon's hands you'll hear Sifu (William Cheung) yell out stop . . stop... sit down to Shannon. He didn't want the incident to escalate. Sifu (Cheung) then says he's sorry to the monk. The monk was pretty embarrased after all the bragging about how good Shaolin kung fu was. To save face the monk then commences to tell the audience what he "could" have done to Shannon. So he has Shannon stand perfertly still with his arms down then he does a slapping move to Shannon's face. Shannon did nothing because he didn't want to cause an incident plus he didn't want to make Sifu mad. I've asked Sifu Shannon Moore's permission to post these.
http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/moore_monk1.MPG
http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/moore_monk2.MPG
PR

[old jong]

Interesting demonstration!...It is easy to see that Moore could have kept his ground and pounded the monk at will but he instead moved back to keep a safe distance permitting to not harm him (With the exception of his ego maybe!...).Imo the backing off was more to protect his opponent from hurt than to protect himself.

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by old jong
Interesting demonstration!...It is easy to see that Moore could have kept his ground and pounded the monk at will but he instead moved back to keep a safe distance permitting to not harm him (With the exception of his ego maybe!...).Imo the backing off was more to protect his opponent from hurt than to protect himself.
You're so right. Moore is a really humble person. There could have been a real fight there. Our guys were angry because of what they heard the night before and the younger monks wanted to prove themselves so Shannon wanted do diffuse (sp)? the situation. It turned out that the head fighting monk liked Shannon Moore after that. So everything turned out alright in the end. I also heard that the Head fighting Monk Abbott appologized for the attitude of the younger monks.
PR

[Phil Redmond]

OJ, what I didn't post was how after the exchange the monk was explaining what he could have done with his internal power to Moore. I only showed the part where he slapped Shannon Moore to save face . . .grin.
PR

[old jong]

It is evident that this man (Moore) is a good example of the true martial arts spirit.
It is refreshing to see this.

[old jong]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
OJ, what I didn't post was how after the exchange the monk was explaining what he could have done with his internal power to Moore. I only showed the part where he slapped Shannon Moore to save face . . .grin.
PR

It that rated for all public?...;)

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by old jong
It that rated for all public?...;)
It's simply the monk demonstating how if he touched Moore in certain places he could have hurt him. Typical kung fu demo hype.
PR

[rogue]

The monk is an ass. Moores sifu should have kept out of it.

[SAAMAG]

I think I was ranting about his on some other website forum, with a guy whom I guess didn't know I was asian myself.

The one thing that got passed down with asian cultured martial arts that I really can't stand was the "saving face" aspect and the whole thing, it typically ended with someone who was superior in skill "bowing down" to another who was lessor in skill, all because they were higher in societal status and feared being embarrassed.

To me, if someone or something is better, then so be it. That's how fighting and people progress as a whole. Saving face does nothing but propogate lies.

It's almost as bad as the "chi" power that some people claim to have but can never display in actual fighting because "they might hurt the other person badly or kill them", and then of course they do the shows...as if the general public is still stupid enough to believe the hype. Well....maybe they are.

Being asian american, I embrace the scientific study of the fighting arts that china and the other countries developed over the centuries, the medical advances they've made being "less technologically advanced", but the saving face and martial arts mystcism that replaces true skill to me has got to go.

[Vajramusti]

Vankuen says:
The one thing that got passed down with asian cultured martial arts that I really can't stand was the "saving face" aspect and the whole thing, it typically ended with someone who was superior in skill "bowing down" to another who was lessor in skill, all because they were higher in societal status and feared being embarrassed.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"((I am an Asian and an American myself. Some aspects of "saving face" are aspects of respect and involves values that i admire. Respect and skill development are not necessarily contradictory in my books.

And on "chi"--- sure there are frauds but the chi/prana nexus
comes from a paradigm that has it's uses.

I neither slavishly imitate the west nor dogmatically accept everything from the east. I constantly try to figure out for myself the strengths and weaknesses of each or both
in martial activity, in health, ethics... there is an intricate confluence of civilzations going on in our times- more than ever before.))). joy

[Ultimatewingchun]

"The one thing that got passed down with asian cultured martial arts that I really can't stand was the "saving face" aspect and the whole thing, it typically ended with someone who was superior in skill "bowing down" to another who was lessor in skill, all because they were higher in societal status and feared being embarrassed." (Van)

While I agree with the overall gist of what you're saying here...let me add some more insight into this situation.

Shannon Moore is a very nice guy - a real gentleman in fact...the personification of the old saying..."the gentle giant."

He's about 6'2'' and weighs 300 lbs.

And he quickly recognized (as did GM William Cheung) the potential GANG FIGHT that this could have turned into...as...in addition to himself - Keith Mazza, Joe Sayah, and Eric Oram were also there (4 of the top people in the TWC world)...each with their own school...and each very loyal to William Cheung and the TWC system.

Knowing Shannon as I do...I suspect that he quickly realized that he was the one person in the room who could end this before it even began.

Due to his overwhelming size - he had the best chance of "controlling" someone without having to really put a heavy hurtin' on them...and the fact that he was willing to take the slap...GIVEN THE OBVIOUS...which was that if he wanted to retaliate - the monk would have been minced meat...AND EVERYBODY PRESENT KNEW THAT...he had the least to lose by taking the slap.

Kudos to Shannon.

He's one helluva dude.

[Phil Redmond]

http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/1vs2.WMV
PR

[VingDragon]

this is funny too

'U...something-Brothers' (http://korvideo.free.fr/umbilical-brothers.wmv) :D

[sihing]

Originally posted by old jong
Interesting demonstration!...It is easy to see that Moore could have kept his ground and pounded the monk at will but he instead moved back to keep a safe distance permitting to not harm him (With the exception of his ego maybe!...).Imo the backing off was more to protect his opponent from hurt than to protect himself.
Easy to see that he could have kept his ground? He went in to attack and fell/retreated backwards, almost losing his balance, throwing a hook at the same time that ended up being 3 feet too far from the Monk, who never moved backwards once. Yes he did get the slap in on the monk but it was because the monk had his guard down and the opening was there, to which then I guess Moore could have came in more committed with a harder strike. See this is a classic problem with non committed sparring, "hey lets fool around a little bit" is the often invitation but with one person not abiding by the agreement to take it easy or not. Either you spar 100% (not meaning you are intending to kill the other guy) or you don't, because how is it possible for two people to have exactly the same intensity. Your 30% may be my 10% or visa versa.

Besides that I still don't understand why the confrontation happened anyways. So what, the younger monks were c0cky and thought they were all this or that, does challenging one of them to see what they would do in a half hearted sparring session help the situation? Lol. Maybe being humble enough to let them think what they want and realize the truth for yourself would have been a better reaction by a true Martial Artist. If the whole situation was no big deal and warranted why did Cheung get upset?

Of course if they invited one of them to spar this is a different story, but from what Phil said, Moore is the one that initiated and wanted to see what they would have done in this or that situation. Personally I wouldn't care less what anyone thought of my Wing Chun in a situation like that, and only when they would actually challenge one of us in a stern way or challenge my Sifu's credibility or skill, then it would happen, with a All or nothing intention, as I'm sure most on here would do the same for their Sifu.

Listen, I'm sure Shannon Moore is a great guy and great WC teacher/practitioner but from what I understand of the situation and the circumstances and also from the Video, once again as always I have a different view of it. No offence intended towards Moore.



James

[duende]

To be honest, I was curious about the whole retreating thing myself.

It looked like he was just testing the water, and not really commiting.

Maybe that was just out of trying to be somewhat respectful or something. I don't know. Either way, retreating like that seems kind of dangerous in my book.

[Yaksha]

It was very interesting. I wonder why a head abbot of fighting didn't put up more of a fight. I've seen some guys do some crazy shaolin stuff. The old guy just did some basic old moves. Granted, the guy was old and probably not so nimble, but for a guy with his title, I was expecting a more complete assault.

My wing chun instructor also know some mantis and karate, and he can do some of the most insane, precise, and fast kicks even though he has a bad back and can't lift heavy objects.

And the old man got so angry. He just bristled with it. Is that characteristic of a shaolin monk? Maybe the rumors are true and shaolin has left the shaolin temple.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"He went in to attack and fell/retreated backwards, almost losing his balance, throwing a hook at the same time that ended up being 3 feet too far from the Monk, who never moved backwards once." (James)


YOU CAN'T BE SERIOUS...look at it again..he never even came close to losing his balance or falling...he retreated ON PURPOSE after scoring the hit (with a bouncing move)...which the monk had no clue about how to defend - because he never even saw the strike coming.

Shannon is extremely fast on his feet for a man his size - as that bouncing back piece of footwork indicates - and he didn't want to go right through the guy with a barrage of strikes...as I posted earlier.

He was just trying to make a point - as the monks changed the "rules of engagement". It was supposed to be some friendly sparring between all 4 TWC guys and 4 monks - instead the TWC people were subjected to a long demo wherein the monks refused to say HOW they would defend against this or that - based upon what they were doing in the demo.

And alot of tension was building in the room...so ....at the end of an hour-long demo...wherein the questions I referred to were being asked by the TWC people - but no answer was coming...

Shannon stood up and said - "but you still haven't answered our questions"....in a way that could NOT be ignored any longer...and offered to work with one of the monks...but instead the head fighting monk said..."No - you do it with me."

And you saw what happened next.

Shannon was trying to diffuse the situation - while at the same time - he knew he HAD to make his point.

So the careful route he took was quite remarkable in it's effectiveness - when you think about it.

This could have been a very nasty situation.

[sihing]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
"He went in to attack and fell/retreated backwards, almost losing his balance, throwing a hook at the same time that ended up being 3 feet too far from the Monk, who never moved backwards once." (James)


YOU CAN'T BE SERIOUS...look at it again..he never even came close to losing his balance or falling...he retreated ON PURPOSE after scoring the hit (with a bouncing move)...which the monk had no clue about how to defend - because he never even saw the strike coming.

Shannon is extremely fast on his feet for a man his size - as that bouncing back piece of footwork indicates - and he didn't want to go right through the guy with a barrage of strikes...as I posted earlier.

He was just trying to make a point - as the monks changed the "rules of engagement". It was supposed to be some friendly sparring between all 4 TWC guys and 4 monks - instead the TWC people were subjected to a long demo wherein the monks refused to say HOW they would defend against this or that - based upon what they were doing in the demo.

And alot of tension was building in the room...so ....at the end of an hour-long demo...wherein the questions I referred to were being asked by the TWC people - but no answer was coming...

Shannon stood up and said - "but you still haven't answered our questions"....in a way that could NOT be ignored any longer...and offered to work with one of the monks...but instead the head fighting monk said..."No - you do it with me."

And you saw what happened next.

Shannon was trying to diffuse the situation - while at the same time - he knew he HAD to make his point.

So the careful route he took was quite remarkable in it's effectiveness - when you think about it.

This could have been a very nasty situation.

What's the definition of Friendly Sparring? Sounds like an oxymoron to me. What was the purpose of the visit to Shaolin? To see and visit the temple and witness some Shaolin Kung Fu or compare styles and systems to find out which one is superior? If the latter was the reason then Shannon was justified. If the former was the reason then why did he "HAVE TO" find out the answers to the TWC people's questions. If one is threatened then one will confront those that are threatening them or retreat. If one is not threatened then there will be no conflict, plain and simple. Was Shannon threatened by the monk’s demonstration? I don't know, only he knows that.

I viewed the video many times and to me he was IMO off balance for a moment, when he retreated after that first attack. Yes I will admit that he moved quite well for a large person, but I find it funny that although he outweighed by at least 100+lbs the Head Monk, the monk never retreated once. And who knows, maybe the monk was holding back too, we'll never know.


James

[Ultimatewingchun]

James:

I'm through talking to you.

There are few people on this forum who surpass you in BEING SO WRONG...SO OFTEN...

AND SO UNWILLING TO ADMIT IT.

I can't be bothered anymore.

Adios.

[canglong]

OJ, what I didn't post was how after the exchange the monk was explaining what he could have done with his internal power to Moore. I only showed the part where he slapped Shannon Moore to save face . . .grin. Redmond Sifu,
If the video doesn't tell the story then why post it. You are saying things contrary to what was on the video so now we have to take your word against something we just saw. There are a number of reasons for why Moore would have backed up the number one reason according to the video is that the Monk was taking his space.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"If the video doesn't tell the story then why post it. You are saying things contrary to what was on the video so now we have to take your word against something we just saw. There are a number of reasons for why Moore would have backed up the number one reason according to the video is that the Monk was taking his space." (Tony Jacobs)

Now look...before trying to get all esoteric on us...go back and look at the video again.

Shannon throws a fake high strike with his right hand - the monk buys the fake...and Shannon then converts it to a low strike THAT CLEARLY LANDS on the monk's body...

AND THEN Shannon decided to back out.

[sihing]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
James:

I'm through talking to you.

There are few people on this forum who surpass you in BEING SO WRONG...SO OFTEN...

AND SO UNWILLING TO ADMIT IT.

I can't be bothered anymore.

Adios.

LOL, from the man with all the answers, ALL HAIL THE NEW CHIEF, AND BOW DOWN THE HIS SUPREME KNOWLEDGE, lol...

James

[canglong]

AND THEN Shannon decided to back out. Parlati Sifu,
uuum no I'm not buying I am watching the monk wave Moore in and what does he do (this is critical to your argument) )he Moore moves IN only to get fought back.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Still waiting for your REALISTIC video, James...

and I'm betting that it's never coming...

which...along with everything else I said in my last post...adds up to the final conclusion I made about you.

Don't care about your "hail-to-the-chief" routine.

Facts speak for themselves.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"uuum no I'm not buying I am watching the monk wave Moore in and what does he do (this is critical to your argument) )he Moore moves IN only to get fought back." (Tony Jacobs)

SO you actually think that Shannon retreated because the monk forced him to go back?

And you don't think that Shannon landed a strike to the monk's body?

Is that right?

[canglong]

Parlati Sifu,
My original point is if the video doesn't convey the message why post it. Clearly if you and Redmond Sifu feel the need to explain what might be different from what is on the video then the value of the video is diminished consdierably don't you agree.

[Ultimatewingchun]

And I'm telling you that what I'm saying does NOT contradict what's on the video...

and furthermore...what's your answer to the two questions I posed?

And lastly...the fact that Phil didn't post the part where the monk IS TALKING - doesn't change anything.

[canglong]

And you don't think that Shannon landed a strike to the monk's body? I did not dispute that he Moore landed a strike the video only shows that he retreated and I was only questioning whether the fight was over because he Moore was a nice guy or becuase the monk was landing some strikes of his own. The video doesn't convey this the way you or Redmond Sifu do, not to say that I doubt your word just pointing out that the video doesn't exactly play the way its is explained and you never mentioned the heart or mind of the monk only Moore so it's a one sided explaination against what appears on the video.

[sihing]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Still waiting for your REALISTIC video, James...

and I'm betting that it's never coming...

which...along with everything else I said in my last post...adds up to the final conclusion I made about you.

Don't care about your "hail-to-the-chief" routine.

Facts speak for themselves.

Victor,

Since you & your disregard for my skill is no threat to me I'll let make no comment.

As for the video, when I'm not busy with new students, introductory lessons, phoning new prospects, getting read for our 15yr student reunion, teaching and general life matters the video will be done. The Denver tapes are being put to VCD now, all I have to do is get my Level 10 on VCD and I can start to post them. Are you still sure you want me to put up your level 10 chi-sao display, and compare it to my chi-sao, which is something you haven't even seen before? Pretty risky I would say.

James

[Ultimatewingchun]

Post anything you want, James...

but most of all - don't give us all these excuses why you can't post something REAL until whenever.................................???


Actions speak much louder than words.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Okay, Tony...now I see your point.

The camera angle DID miss something that was going on.

[canglong]

Parlati Sifu,
Can we read about this exchange somewhere online or in the back issue of a particular magazine looks and sounds interesting if nothing else. Thanks

[Ultimatewingchun]

There's nothing in print anywhere that I know of, Tony.

That could change, however...as I understand that a martial art publication (don't recall which one)...was there in attendance.

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by canglong
Redmond Sifu,
If the video doesn't tell the story then why post it. You are saying things contrary to what was on the video so now we have to take your word against something we just saw. There are a number of reasons for why Moore would have backed up the number one reason according to the video is that the Monk was taking his space.
OK What I didn't put up was. Sifu Moore standing while the monk touched him on certain parts of his body and saying he could have struc him here and there and would have hurt him with his Chi. I think that's self explanatory but if you need to see it I'll post. You'l be dissappointed though.

Sihing, Our guys were told that the monks were going to hurt thme during the information exchange. Did you read the part were I said the senior monk apologized for the behavior of his students? What happened was that there could have been a real fight and Sifu Moore lept it friendly. I hope that is clear to you. BTW I've seen the video on a large screen with better quality that you got to see. There was no strike that was 3 feet away. But I'm not going to agrgue about with you. I saw something completely different.
Peace my brother,
PR

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by canglong
Parlati Sifu,
My original point is if the video doesn't convey the message why post it. Clearly if you and Redmond Sifu feel the need to explain what might be different from what is on the video then the value of the video is diminished consdierably don't you agree.
Well, I posted it because I found it interesting and thought other would Period. What the video shows is Shannon Moore applying a lau sau and slap to the monks face. He saw distress in the monks face and retreated. MANY people who were there (even those outside of TWC) conveyed the same story. It's just a video I decided to post. There was no hidden agenda or anything. Like I said before I thought it would be interesting. So the next time I post a video I'll make sure to explain it clearly so there won't be any confusion. OK with you?
PR

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Okay, Tony...now I see your point.

The camera angle DID miss something that was going on.

Victor, did you hear the loud slap to the monk's face? If not I can send you a better copy. That's when the ahhhs form the audience started and Shannon felt bad. That why he stopped.
Phil

[Ultimatewingchun]

I don't doubt it for a second, Phil.

I spoke to Keith on the phone about it - and got the whole rundown.

But Tony's point is a valid one...since there is no objective visual evidence to support that part of what happened - we have to expect that people will take what we say with a grain of salt.

[meridian88]

Was the clip suppose to be a sparring match or a demonstration?

I think Sifu Phil was accurate in describing what happened and from the way the monk acted it seemed it was suppose to be a demonstration of how to they would handle random multiple attacks.

To me sparring is a testing of skill without truly trying to harm your opponent and it is a term used for training purpose. (ie. How else to practice fighting without truly hurting someone?)

If it wasn't a demonstration, why would they reset and the monk tell Sifu Shannon to try again. I think it was quite evident that the monk was not prepared to handle Sifu Shannon's attack and became angry when he failed to do so (getting struck) thereby losing face.

The purpose was to see how they would handle someone attacking with multiple strikes, no? Sifu Shannon was the stimulus and the monk was the demonstrator.

I admire Sifu Shannon's humility for giving face back to the one that lost it (2nd clip).

Thank you for sharing the clip Sifu Phil. Thanks to both Sifu Phil and Sifu Victor for giving background to the clip.

I hope the critisicms do not deter you from posting more clips. Unfortunately, I found that's the nature of the beast on sharing ideas/clips etc on a forum like this.

[Ultimatewingchun]

meridian88:

Thanks for the kind words.

Shannon Moore is a true gentleman.

And you're quite right about the pitfalls of the internet.

[Savi]

Is it part of the TWC training method to retreat after a strike? I am wondering why Moore Sifu ended up so far away after landing the strike. Was it his intention to do so, or as Mr. Jacobs observed, that he retreated because the monk came forward?

[Ultimatewingchun]

As I posted earlier, Savi:

"He retreated ON PURPOSE after scoring the hit (with a bouncing move)...which the monk had no clue about how to defend - because he never even saw the strike coming.

Shannon is extremely fast on his feet for a man his size - as that bouncing back piece of footwork indicates - and he didn't want to go right through the guy with a barrage of strikes."


THERE WAS A LOT MORE to this situation than meets the eye.

Go back and read some of the earlier posts that Phil and I have done on this thread.

[Savi]

I did read the earlier posts. My question is specific to any existing TWC strategy or tactic that would clarify WHY he moved back. Is there any technical knowledge behind his reason to move back?

Saying he moved "On Purpose" doesn't answer my question. Thank you for the acknowledgement Vic.

[LC-NYC]

Interesting.... So much can be said about this clip...

If you save the link and play it in Windows Media Player you get a much better picture of what happened.

Based on what I saw.....What Shanon did takes courage....assuming it was done for the right reason.. He tested a shaolin monk... He put himself in a risky situation..

The Monk also showed courage by accepting the testing of skills instead of sending out his student like some teachers like to do...

The action of the monk on the second video is not what I expected from a Shaolin Monk....


Thank you PR for sharing!

[Ultimatewingchun]

Savi:

ON PURPOSE means that he did not want to follow up with additional strikes...after making the initial hit...which he could have done...but chose not to do.

So he retreated.

This was politics at work...not necessarily TWC fighting strategy.

After reading all that has been written so far on this thread - why is it hard for you to understand that?

And listen carefully and you will hear William Cheung screaming at Shannon:

"Hey...Hey...Sit down. Sorry...Sorry."

What he was sorry about was the fact that Shannon slapped the monk in the face (on the part of the video wherein the camera didn't catch everything).

In other words...the monk followed Shannon after he backed off and got hit again - this time...taking a slap (an open hand) to the face.

And once again I'm going to spell it all out:

This was supposed to be 4 different sparring matches...between the 4 TWC students of William Cheung who were present...and 4 of the fighting monks.

THAT WAS WHAT WAS AGREED UPON IN ADVANCE.

But when William Cheung and company showed up - the monks ARBITRARILY decided to change everything - and wanted to just make it into a long demo wherein they perform and everybody else just sits and watches.

But when some of the 4 TWC guys started to ask questions in-between different parts of the monks demos...AND GOT NO ANSWERS...

but instead just got the old "you just sit there and watch us experts perform" routine...well...

that's when things took a slightly different turn.

Especially since the 4 TWC guys were also getting dirty looks from the fighting monks FROM THE SECOND THEY ENTERED THE ROOM.

Get the picture now?

[Savi]

One thing that should not be overlooked, is that the monk stayed true to human nature (according to Shaolin wisdoms), which is to "occupy space by going forward."

An interesting parallel to this, in Ip Man Ving Tsun the first two principles are:

1. Go to and occupy center
2. Continuous Forward Energy

[Savi]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Savi:

ON PURPOSE means that he did not want to follow up with additional strikes...after making the initial hit...which he could have done...but chose not to do.

So he retreated.

This was politics at work...not necessarily TWC fighting strategy.

After reading all that has been written so far on this thread - why is it hard for you to understand that?

And listen carefully and you will hear William Cheung screaming at Shannon:

"Hey...Hey...Sit down. Sorry...Sorry."

What he was sorry about was the fact that Shannon slapped the monk in the face (on the part of the video wherein the camera didn't catch everything).

In other words...the monk followed Shannon after he backed off and got hit again - this time...taking a slap (an open hand) to the face.

And once again I'm going to spell it all out:

This was supposed to be 4 different sparring matches...between the 4 TWC students of William Cheung who were present...and 4 of the fighting monks.

THAT WAS WHAT WAS AGREED UPON IN ADVANCE.

But when William Cheung and company showed up - the monks ARBITRARILY decided to change everything - and wanted to just make it into a long demo wherein they perform and everybody else just sits and watches.

But when some of the 4 TWC guys started to ask questions in-between different parts of the monks demos...AND GOT NO ANSWERS...

but instead just got the old "you just sit there and watch us experts perform" routine...well...

that's when things took a slightly different turn.

Especially since the 4 TWC guys were also getting dirty looks from the fighting monks FROM THE SECOND THEY ENTERED THE ROOM.

Get the picture now?
Vic,

You still didn't answer my question.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"One thing that should not be overlooked, is that the monk stayed true to human nature (according to Shaolin wisdoms), which is to "occupy space by going forward."

An interesting parallel to this, in Ip Man Ving Tsun the first two principles are:

1. Go to and occupy center
2. Continuous Forward Energy"



THAT'S NICE, Savi.

But it has nothing to do with the nuances of what happened at this event.

...As for your question - I did answer it...but you don't like what you heard.

That's not my problem.

[rogue]

Cheung should never have let that punk monk slap his man. At the very least he should have challenged him.

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by Savi
One thing that should not be overlooked, is that the monk stayed true to human nature (according to Shaolin wisdoms), which is to "occupy space by going forward."

An interesting parallel to this, in Ip Man Ving Tsun the first two principles are:

1. Go to and occupy center
2. Continuous Forward Energy
Hi, I've studied from many different WC sifu and even studied other WC lineages outside of Yiop Man WC. The two points you posted are shared by ALL WC. So let me explain again. I'm not sure if it's obviour in the clip. Sifu Moore Sallped the monk in the face even before they went of camera using a lau sau and pak to the face. The slap could be heard by everyone in the room. Once Moore realized that he had hit the monk and heard the "ahhs" from the people ing the room he DECIDED to back off. Please forgive me if I didn't make this point clear. Once again it was "NOT" a TWC principle that was in place there. It was concious decision to avoid and incident. OK, I'm done with the subject. I hope some of you got what I meant.
PR

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by rogue
Cheung should never have let that punk monk slap his man. At the very least he should have challenged him.
Shannon Moore got up there on his own. On the original tape he says to the monk in Chinese that he didn't know that was going to happen. In fact he was angry at Moore as you can hear on the clip. Everything turned out alright after thant and there were no hard feelings.
PR

[Savi]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Once Moore realized that he had hit the monk and heard the "ahhs" from the people ing the room he DECIDED to back off. Please forgive me if I didn't make this point clear. Once again it was "NOT" a TWC principle that was in place there. It was concious decision to avoid and incident. OK, I'm done with the subject. I hope some of you got what I meant.
PR Thank you Redmond Sifu, this clarification is what I was looking for.

Vic, it is not a matter of what I like to read or not. Redmond Sifu clarified the intent behind Moore Sifu's actions and did a fine job at it.

[LC-NYC]

Does anyone know exactly who that monk is?

Can anyone get that TKD vs Monk footage working here??

Thanks

[Knifefighter]

Yes, the bigger guy got in a "touch" to the body and face. Yes, he was off balance for a second there. Yes, the monk chased him back and "took his space" from him.

Does any of that mean anything of any significance on who could have done what to whom if it was for real in that little slappy slap contest? No more than a karate point tourney shows who the better fighter is.

[Savi]

Is what Moore Sifu did in that footage representative of TWC?

[Ultimatewingchun]

You're trolling now, Savi.

Cut it out.

[Savi]

Vic, I would appreciate it if you would stop making assumptions about me or my intentions. I am seriously asking if what Moore Sifu demonstrated in that footage was representative of TWC.

If you don't want to answer, fine. It's a simple yes or no question. That's it.

[sihing]

Originally posted by Savi
Vic, I would appreciate it if you would stop making assumptions about me or my intentions. I am seriously asking if what Moore Sifu demonstrated in that footage was representative of TWC.

If you don't want to answer, fine. It's a simple yes or no question. That's it.

I certainly hope not, and IMO the clip wasn't in any way a representation of TWC, but since most of the TWC guys think I no squat about what they do (since Cheung has only decided to reveal the true TWC since we left the organization 10 yrs ago, lol) then feel free to ignore this post.

James

[rogue]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Shannon Moore got up there on his own. On the original tape he says to the monk in Chinese that he didn't know that was going to happen. In fact he was angry at Moore as you can hear on the clip. Everything turned out alright after thant and there were no hard feelings.
PR Maybe the monk should work on his serenity more. He got hit with a half ass shot and lost it. Moore should have knocked him down.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"It's a simple yes or no question. That's it."


NO...that's not it.

You're trolling.

You have been told numerous times on this thread already exactly what Shannon was doing and why.

What is your problem?

Why do you insult my intelligence by trying to make believe that your question hasn't been answered?

Do you really think that you're going to gain or prove something by all of this?

Other than to expose your own trolling tendencies?

I really don't think so.

[Savi]

This place hasn't changed one bit. Even a simple question becomes obscured and met with ego.

Believe what you will Vic. :rolleyes: I'm not interested in discussing TWC anymore.

I hope in the future that the atmosphere on this forum grows towards a better environment. People like Kathy Jo and Levi are excellent examples of courtesy and respectability.

I'm outta this thread. :confused: :(

[SAAMAG]

That's pretty funny.

Why ask a question if you're not going to accept the answer?

It's true that K and Lev probably don't let themselves get pulled into some of the hubbub that goes on in here...but kissing their behinds isn't doing much for your "ego" either.

If you really want to show how the thread could be, leave names out of it...especially ones that weren't involved in your issues.

[taltos]

I train with Savi, and there are no TWC schools that we know of in our area, and neither of us have extensive experience with TWC.

There is plenty of talk about how "similar" TWC and HFY seems to people... so it COULD BE that before Savi reached any conclusions about what TWC was or was not, he wanted to clarify first.

That would certainly fit within his personality... to clarify before making assumptions, that is.

-Levi

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by sihing
I certainly hope not, and IMO the clip wasn't in any way a representation of TWC, but since most of the TWC guys think I no squat about what they do (since Cheung has only decided to reveal the true TWC since we left the organization 10 yrs ago, lol) then feel free to ignore this post.

James
I have to interject here. The "true" TWC who knows, but Sifu's getting older and has really opened up with things that weren't shown in 1983 to the early 90's. Like the dummy form. Sifu has a video of the forms when he went back to HK so show his brothers at the VTAA the forms as YM taught him. The dummy form is different from what we'd seen before. I'm not saying that say what I know is better. I'm saying that I've been around since the very beggining and I've seen the differences. It's a whole different ball game. Loyality obviously pays off.
PR

[Phil Redmond]

Brutal
http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/Gilbert_Yvel.mpg
PR

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by LC-NYC
Does anyone know exactly who that monk is?
Can anyone get that TKD vs Monk footage working here??
Thanks
I don't know his name he's not the Abbott of the whole temple but he's supposed to be the Abbot of the fighting monks. All Shaolin monks aren't martial artists. He taught some basic Shaolin kung fu classes to the TWC at the tour. there was a lot going on there. I think there are 2 VCDs of the Information exchange tour.
PR

[Shaolin Fist]

I'm Sure Sifu moore is a nice and humble guy but what has been described in my opinion doesn't match what i see.

Firstly when someone spars in this fashion, i.e strike and quickly jump back, then its just like point scoring. Or one is respectful of the opponent and gets out after a hit as quick as possible, but the distance retreated is more like TKD sparring as one is wary of long range kicks. There is no way after the slap that Shannon could have continued the attack as he was already on the retreat which explains the high intensity of the slap, a forward or advancing slap doesn't feel or sound the same as the energetics are slightly different and it is obvious to an expereinced eye. An advancing slap is less of a 'slap' and is more controlled as its more of a strike, and is more closer to a palm strike and can be placed on an opponent with speed and control with the softest of touch (if desired) as the slap works on 'exposed angle' so there is not usually any resistance or obstructions.

I my opinion i personally cant see Sifu Shannon loosing his balance but i can see the stategy of simultaneous one strike and retreat.

Now its always a little sad to see this kind of reation from a Senior Monk, but i can understand what he did, otherwise what would be the alternative ? stand in front of the audience and praise TWC and say how effective it is against Shaolin !

[canglong]

originally posted by Phil Redmond
OK What I didn't put up was. Sifu Moore standing while the monk touched him on certain parts of his body and saying he could have struc him here and there and would have hurt him with his Chi. I think that's self explanatory but if you need to see it I'll post. You'l be dissappointed though. Every video should be self explanatory, can the video alone represent what actually happened or does it require your explanation this is the point. This must be asked because what you say and what is seen do not exactly match.

Redmond Sifu, just as in the previous video you shared of the bareknuckle brawls the first person to strike was not necessarily the person in control of what was to follow. So watching this video we are reminded of how many times Ali or Tyson were struck first and then proceeded to win the fight. The video loses value in my opinion when you have to explain what coulda shoulda woulda been and that explanation is contrary to what the audience is watching. There is no disagreement with your explanation just trying to make a point. Put the video out and then answer the questions without feelings of attachment to the answers or the questions.

[canglong]

Well, I posted it because I found it interesting and thought other would Period. What the video shows is Shannon Moore applying a lau sau and slap to the monks face. He saw distress in the monks face and retreated. MANY people who were there (even those outside of TWC) conveyed the same story. It's just a video I decided to post. There was no hidden agenda or anything. Like I said before I thought it would be interesting. So the next time I post a video I'll make sure to explain it clearly so there won't be any confusion. OK with you? 1. "Saw distress in the monks face" , that is not evident in the video. 2. The intitial contact did not appear to be started by any official person or sound so who got the first strike in would seem to be pointless 3. There has been no explanation as to why Moore Sifu returns to fight after the Monk gestures to him to come in and Moore Sifu does just that only to retreat again. 4. The video is just that a video yet your explanation of it portrays the monks as mean spirited, egotistical and poorly trained in kung fu none of which is evident in the video so even if it were true why bring it up. Again Redmond Sifu, not to say you have an agenda hidden or otherwise just pointing out you might be better served to just post the video and answer the questions without all the character descriptions.

[black and blue]

In terms of what I could see of the friendly fight (my description) the monk looked better. More stable, more in control with movement despite facing a far bigger opponent, more forward moving.

Without wanting to sound nasty, and I know this wasn't a full out fight, the TWC chap was jumping in and out with very light, flicky-type slaps, and when contact was establish towards the end, W Cheung spoke up and stopped it.

Personally, the monk was more impressive than I thought he'd be.

The monk slapping the TWC guy's face on the second mpeg was funny, but, of course, kinda childish... respect to the TWC for not jumping on him after that.

[Vajramusti]

FWIW and IMO only--

1.the video as any display of fighting or sparring is eminently forgettable.

2. the so called monk in that tourist center showed poor form in slapping Moore at the end.

3. Moore showed admirable restraint in not responding.

[black and blue]

Joy says, "1.the video as any display of fighting or sparring is eminently forgettable."

Who you kidding... I know you can quote, punch for punch entire boxing bouts you've seen ;)

A good few months back there was a Muay Thai chap who won some K1 event... it was beautiful. He hardly punched at all.... covered, dodged, swayed and ducked away from hundreds of punches and used the most amazing kicking skills to turn his opponent into someone who could barely stand up... I won't ever forget 'that' fight.

[Vajramusti]

B & B- you talking to me?-missed your point- but this might help you
with your wing chun withdrawal pangs:

* 2 lb. beef chuck
* 1 tsp. salt
* 2 onions, white or yellow
* 2 Tbsp. lard or shortening
* 2 Tbsp. imported sweet paprika (most important to use real hungarian paprika for ultimate flavor)
* 2 bay leaves
* 1 Qt. water
* 4 peeled and diced potatoes
* 1/4 tsp. black pepper

Cut beef into 1 inch squares, add 1/2 tsp. salt. Chop onions and brown in shortening, add beef and paprika. Let beef simmer in its own juice along with salt and paprika for 1 hr. on low heat. Add water, diced potatoes and remaining salt. Cover and simmer until potatoes are done and meat is tender. Prepare egg dumpling batter:

* 1 egg
* 6 Tbsp. flour
* 1/8 tsp. salt

Add flour to unbeaten egg and salt. Mix well. Let stand for 1/2 hour for flour to mellow. Drop by teaspoonful into Goulash. Cover and simmer 5 minutes after dumplings rise to surface.

Serve hot with dollops of sour cream.

Serves 6.

[chisauking]

Hey, Joy:

That sounds lovely! Can you make me some? I love food

[black and blue]

Of course I was talking to you. My post followed yours and used the words "Joy says..." followed by a quote.

;) 'tis a giveaway...

No Wing Chun pangs, but thanks for the recipe... though not needed as I have many variations. If you like the hot stuff I can always recommend some to you.

[Jeff Bussey]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Brutal
http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/Gilbert_Yvel.mpg
PR

That was enjoyable!!
He really knows how to use his knees.

Thanx

J

[canglong]

2. the so called monk in that tourist center showed poor form in slapping Moore at the end. Joy,
I have to disagree with you on this point because it is well known that monks are renown for absorbing the first blow or punch in an effort to demonstrate their iron shirt abilities, we have all seen this demonstrated several times. A slap to the face however, while attempting to demonstrate this would appear to be where Moore Sifu initially went wrong. In the beginning it looks as if the monk was dropping his guard waiting to absorb a punch and then was slapped in the face now that was very disrespectful on Moore Sifu's part though he may not have even realized it.

Shaolin fist got it right when he describes the scenario and the high intensity of the slap and why.

[Vajramusti]

Joy,
I have to disagree with you on this point
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have no problem with disagreements. Different inferences for different folks.

IMO it was neither TWC's or Shaolin's finest hour.

joy

[canglong]

IMO it was neither TWC's or Shaolin's finest hour. That is what is probably hardest to distinguish do to the shortness of the video and lack of knowledge as to the event on a whole. IMO Neither system should be judge based on this or any one short video clip.

[Vajramusti]

Canglong comments:
IMO Neither system should be judge based on this or any one short video clip.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Completely agree.
And I don't do either "system".

However-In passing- the integrity of Shaolin has been eroding for quite some time. Though nostalgia and marketing remains.
Both Chiang Kai Shek(KMT) and Mao(PRC) contributed to the erosion. And both those forces were "western" in character.
Chian and Mdame Chiang's Methodist "nationalist" outlook and Mao's
Marxist class analysis outlook. Chiang didnt like the independence and local control (which also meant diplomacy with warlords) and Mao regarded Buddhism- Chan or Tibetan as a thiings of the past.
Mao also discouraged kung fu as feudal and the cultural revolution was hard on many remaining martial artists.
A handful of old monks were allowed to live out their lives
and autonomy in decisionmaking eroded.
The emasculated kung fu as modern wushu became a national sport.
Post Mao- things changed some- tourists brought new dollars... so the retraining of monks began again for show.
But the best athletes were directed to wushu- better pay.
The second rate became often shaolin "monks".
Ask Ross sifu on the main forum about the contemporary monks.
I have seen and met some of the individuals in two of the official shaoling groups that came here. And I have met other modern shaolin monks apart from the tours. Energetic and athletic --but not very deep in their dharma or their fighting ability.
Iron shirt is ok if you are set and know where you will receive a blow- but it has serious limitations in a fight or when the dynamics are unpredictable.

Otoh- I dont know what Moore was doing bending down playing tag and jumping back.

It would be interesting to know "facts" on what the initial agreement was if any and what conversation if any occurred between the leaders afterwards.

[canglong]

It would be interesting to know "facts" on what the initial agreement was if any and what conversation if any occurred between the leaders afterwards. Yes my thoughts exactly Parlati Sifu stated a third party magazine was there but may or may not have a write up on the event he was unsure so the search for an article or story is still ongoing at this point.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"have to disagree with you on this point because it is well known that monks are renown for absorbing the first blow or punch in an effort to demonstrate their iron shirt abilities, we have all seen this demonstrated several times. A slap to the face however, while attempting to demonstrate..." (Canglong)

We are getting WAAAAY too esoteric about all of this.

Remember I said earlier in the thread that some TWC people's questions were going unanswered? During the monks' demos?

The question that was getting no answer was "What happens when your opponent throws a hook punch off the straight punch?"

NO ANSWER.

Just dirty looks. And no matchups as was planned and agreed upon.

Now go back and watch the video again.

No...Savi...this was not TWC strategy and techniques.

This was a point being made - and the monk got hit.

Now don't get me wrong. I've watched the tape enough times to see that the monk probably has some skills. Perhaps quite a bit...who knows? The video only lasts a few seconds.

Enough said.

[Savi]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
"have to disagree with you on this point because it is well known that monks are renown for absorbing the first blow or punch in an effort to demonstrate their iron shirt abilities, we have all seen this demonstrated several times. A slap to the face however, while attempting to demonstrate..." (Canglong)

We are getting WAAAAY too esoteric about all of this.
Monks ARE reknown for allowing others to strike first because their Chi Gung (iron body) training proves that mere strikes to the body accomplishes little. Did the monk even hesitate or retreat from those strikes from Moore Sifu? From the video, it didn't even phase him.

Tony makes a strong point about this. We must also look at the cultural perspectives in order to understand the reactions recorded in the footage. Monks understand - just as a good majority of the martial community - the idea of "honestly expressing yourself". This is a warrior mindest. Bruce Lee was a strong proponent of this ideal. Does a slap in the face show how serious and honest one is? I think the message the monk got with that slap was reinforced by Moore's retreat; that he was there to make a poor example out of the monk. If your perception is true that there was a lot of tension in the room, I can see this happening.

If you slap anyone in face, that sends a different message than "testing skill" - and a pretty insulting one at that. Why? In that scenario, good solid strikes are expected - even real strikes. What is not expected, at least from the monk's POV, is a fake wasted slap in the face. Considering that it has been said there was much tension in the room, I can understand how insulting and offensive that is - not a respectful approach to show the skill of a practitioner.

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Remember I said earlier in the thread that some TWC people's questions were going unanswered? During the monks' demos?

The question that was getting no answer was "What happens when your opponent throws a hook punch off the straight punch?"

NO ANSWER.Was was your conclusion from this? Going along the lines of what I have been studying of Shaolin, there is no predetermined action in anything, but action from no thought.

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Just dirty looks. And no matchups as was planned and agreed upon.I wish I could have been there. Perception mixed with emotion can be an obstacle at times.

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
No...Savi...this was not TWC strategy and techniques.Thank you Vic. I did not realize I was pressing this question too strongly without adding more substance to why I was asking. I really was trying to understand Moore's actions from a technical TWC POV. I will try to be more contientious of how I ask things in the future.

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
This was a point being made - and the monk got hit.Does that really prove anything? Does that prove that monks aren't untouchable? Is that the point? If the point is about superiority or who can control who, have you understood the video from the monk's POV? Who was grabbing who before they agreed to stop? Who moved who back?

Muhammad Ali and Mike Tyson got hit plenty of times, and in some of those occasions, the first hits weren't theirs. They got hit as well, but what is the real point? Who ends the fight? Who controls the fight? I can relate to what the monk was doing, based on the wisdoms of Shaolin methods. Here is a link to another discussion about the footage: TWC vs Monk (http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=963)

[Ultimatewingchun]

Savi:

No comment.

[rogue]

My goodness, all this over two men slapping each other. :rolleyes: So do you all think Vitor was robbed last night?

[Vajramusti]

Rogue trolling again.

[rogue]

Nope, just offering some color commentary oh man of many user names.

[Mr. Horse]

I saw the two clips. Moore seemed to be in control. He did slap the　monk a few times. Does this mean that Moore would win in a "real" fight? I don't think so. I am not saying that he would lose, but it was just a quick exchange so we will never know.

The monk underestimated Moore and was surprised by his attack. I think that the monk saw his size, and thought that he was just an out of shape American.

I think it would be different if they were sparring. I think the monk would have adjusted to Moore's speed. Or maybe not. The monk was hit, but monks are famous for being able to take a punch. I know there are Wing Chun masters that can hit hard, but Wing Chun cats are not the hardest hitters on the block (no disrespect).

I am not picking sides. I could care less. i would rather see a kung fu cat (any style) shut up those BJJ and MMA (who do have bragging rights)

One thing is for sure: the monks of today ARE NOT the monks of old.

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by Mr. Horse
I saw the two clips. Moore seemed to be in control. He did slap the　monk a few times. Does this mean that Moore would win in a "real" fight? I don't think so. I am not saying that he would lose, but it was just a quick exchange so we will never know.

The monk underestimated Moore and was surprised by his attack. I think that the monk saw his size, and thought that he was just an out of shape American.

I think it would be different if they were sparring. I think the monk would have adjusted to Moore's speed. Or maybe not. The monk was hit, but monks are famous for being able to take a punch. I know there are Wing Chun masters that can hit hard, but Wing Chun cats are not the hardest hitters on the block (no disrespect).

I am not picking sides. I could care less. i would rather see a kung fu cat (any style) shut up those BJJ and MMA (who do have bragging rights)

One thing is for sure: the monks of today ARE NOT the monks of old.
That's a good objective post. It's refreshing. :)
PR

[YungChun]

Regarding M vs M:

I saw no Wing Chun whatsoever as usual in these clips – it looked like bad kyu level Karate sparring complete with a ridge hand swipe that missed the mark.

Why in the world would any WC follower exhibit such an empty and bizarre display?

I did see one peed off Monk moving toward Moore with serious intent, something Moore did not exhibit.

If Moore had wanted to test the Monk then it should have been clear and the 'test' should have been real.

Sorry, but I think Moore's actions reflect poorly on the style and it seems the person who said "Sit down!" felt the same way.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by YungChun
I saw no Wing Chun whatsoever as usual in these clips – Of course you didn’t see much WC there. That’s because they weren’t doing chi sao and the WC guy was going against a non-WC person.

Obviously that wasn’t sparring or fighting, but it was a step closer than chi sao. The closer you get to actually fighting the less theoretical WC you will see. Same goes for fighting against a non-WC practioner.

The theoretical non-fighters who only do chi sao sparring against their fellow WC theoreticians won’t understand this, though.

[Vajramusti]

"The theoretical non-fighters who only do chi sao sparring against their fellow WC theoreticians won’t understand this, though."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Trolling baloney and pontification!.

[sihing]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Of course you didn’t see much WC there. That’s because they weren’t doing chi sao and the WC guy was going against a non-WC person.

Obviously that wasn’t sparring or fighting, but it was a step closer than chi sao. The closer you get to actually fighting the less theoretical WC you will see. Same goes for fighting against a non-WC practioner.

The theoretical non-fighters who only do chi sao sparring against their fellow WC theoreticians won’t understand this, though.

Once again a great post by someone with a prejudice mind....

James

[Ultimatewingchun]

There was no Wing Chun there because the point being made was not about Wing Chun.

And you, YongChun....have obviously chosen NOT to pay any attention to all the posts that Phil and I have made explaining exactly what was going on there.

That's your problem.

[YungChun]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
There was no Wing Chun there because the point being made was not about Wing Chun.

And you, YongChun....have obviously chosen NOT to pay any attention to all the posts that Phil and I have made explaining exactly what was going on there.

That's your problem.

I don't have a problem Victor, I have an opinion, which it sounds like, YOU have a problem with.....oh well...

I could care less who said what to whom, who made nasty faces, whos feelings were hurt, or anything else related to this issue - my opinion is unchanged.

[YungChun]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Of course you didn’t see much WC there. That’s because they weren’t doing chi sao and the WC guy was going against a non-WC person.

Obviously that wasn’t sparring or fighting, but it was a step closer than chi sao. The closer you get to actually fighting the less theoretical WC you will see. Same goes for fighting against a non-WC practioner.

The theoretical non-fighters who only do chi sao sparring against their fellow WC theoreticians won’t understand this, though.

Why don't you go find a qualified WC Sifu and take some lessons...

At least then you might have one solid fact to work with regarding the subject matter you continue to post about ad infinitum for no apparent reason.

Why not post about something you actually know? I'm sure there is a very small forum somewhere that would fit the bill.

[Ultimatewingchun]

That's nice about the faces and dirty looks, YungChun...

but the fact still remains that Shannon Moore threw a hook off of a lead straight punch...WHICH IS NOT A WING CHUN TECHNIQUE...because the demonstration the monks were doing left the impression that they would be vulnerable to such a move.

And the monk was hit.

And just for the record - hooking off the straight lead is a GOOD move in certain circumstances...whether it's Wing Chun or not.

[sihing]

So Moore, seeing vulnerability in the Shaolin amour, had to expose it by using techniques outside his own primary system? And if a junior monk watching Moore spar with the head fighting monk, after the confrontation was over, started to critique Moore's technique and saying, "Yeah but when you faked low and slapped high successfully, you were vulnerable to this that and the next thing..." Would Moore then say, yes I was but I wasn't using WC technique or concepts? Lol, this makes no sense, to go out and show a vulnerability without even using your own system to compare it too. Listen, I'm sure Moore is a great teacher of TWC but truly I don't understand his motivation for, challenging the Head Monk in the first place, and second, doing it the way he did.

James

[Mr. Horse]

I watch the clip a few more times, and to be honest with you, there really isn't anything great there (on either side). I don't even know what the big deal is. Moore sifu popped him in the face and chest... And???

These strikes seemed like jabs, and if you have ever boxed or done heavy hit sparring, you would know that nine times out of ten, jabs wake you up. Jabs are good to keep someone a bay, or to set up a harder strike.

I could be wrong, but I am not going to sit here and OVER analyze a few seconds of film.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Mr. Horse....

You are a welcome breath of fresh air.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by YungChun
Why don't you go find a qualified WC Sifu and take some lessons.. I did quite a bit of WC training in my early days. Of course, the naysayers will conveneintlty say I had crappy teachers, didn't learn how to use the system correctly, or didn't learn "real" WC.

Why would I continue to throw my money away on something that nobody seems to be able to demonstrate in a fighting situation when I can train with elite level MMA fighters who constantly demonstrate their abilities and the effectiveness of their fighting styles in these types of situations?

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by YungChun
Why not post about something you actually know? As far as posting about something you actually know, you seem to have made quite a few disparaging remarks about the WC demonstrated in various fighting and sparring clips posted around here.

Does that mean you can do better?

If so, will you be posting a clip of your fighting abilities?

[rogue]

So Moore, seeing vulnerability in the Shaolin amour, had to expose it by using techniques outside his own primary system?
The punch worked so WC is incomplete?

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by sihing
Once again a great post by someone with a prejudice minds
Originally posted by YungChun
I saw no Wing Chun whatsoever as usual in these clips – it looked like bad kyu level Karate sparring complete with a ridge hand swipe that missed the mark.
Originally posted by Vajramusti
Trolling baloney and pontification!. Funny how, without exception, every person who has denigrated the clps posted here has not shown one single shred of evidence of any ability to fight with WC at all.

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by sihing
So Moore, seeing vulnerability in the Shaolin amour, had to expose it by using techniques outside his own primary system? And if a junior monk watching Moore spar with the head fighting monk, after the confrontation was over, started to critique Moore's technique and saying, "Yeah but when you faked low and slapped high successfully, you were vulnerable to this that and the next thing..." Would Moore then say, yes I was but I wasn't using WC technique or concepts? Lol, this makes no sense, to go out and show a vulnerability without even using your own system to compare it too. Listen, I'm sure Moore is a great teacher of TWC but truly I don't understand his motivation for, challenging the Head Monk in the first place, and second, doing it the way he did.

James
Firstly, Moore used a lauh sau which IS a WC technique. Now I'll type this r_e_a_ l. . . . s_l_o_w ;)
There was a question posed to the monks just before the sparring season was supposed to take place. The question was how would Shaolin kung fu deal with random punches and fakes. Moore ask if he could demonstrate what he was talking about with one of the student monks. If you'd like I can add the clip where Moore points to the senior "student" monk demostrate with. The Head Monk told him no, demonstrate with me. I hope eveyone got that :) He DID NOT challenge the Head Monk
PR

[sihing]

Originally posted by rogue
The punch worked so WC is incomplete?

How did the punch(slap) work? Just because it made contact? Unless the monk was face down on the floor then it might of worked, but he wasn't, so I guess it was unsuccessful or was Moore only going at 20% of his power. Maybe the Monk was too?

James

[Ultimatewingchun]

I don't think that people want to get that, Phil....

He didn't challenge the monk....and the question - as you say - was about fakes followed by real attacks...as in a hook coming off a straight lead punch.

It's amazing how...no matter how many times you or I say that...and no matter how much the video backs up what we're saying - some people are still in denial.

And yes, Dale (KF) is right...

Where are the videos by all the nay-sayers???

Why don't we see their Wing Chun?

What's going on around here?

[sihing]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Funny how, without exception, every person who has denigrated the clps posted here has not shown one single shred of evidence of any ability to fight with WC at all.

To who am I (or anyone else you’re insinuating) supposed to prove it to, you? Say I or we do that and another MMA comes on the forum next month and asks the same thing as you, PROVE IT! And we do it again for him, and then the same is repeated every month for 12 months. How stupid is that. When does it end? Either you have faith in what you do (which is usually achieved through thorough investigation and understanding of what one is doing), or you don't. I could care less what you think of Wing Chun or my abilities with it or how effective I am as a fighter. Having to proving something means you threaten my beliefs. If that happens I obviously don't not have full confidence in my abilities, and deserve to be defeated in embarrassment. That is not the case. I'm aware of my strengths and weaknesses, and realize that I am not the deadliest fighter in the world. Are you Dale?

James

[sihing]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Firstly, Moore used a lauh sau which IS a WC technique. Now I'll type this r_e_a_ l. . . . s_l_o_w ;)
There was a question posed to the monks just before the sparring season was supposed to take place. The question was how would Shaolin kung fu deal with random punches and fakes. Moore ask if he could demonstrate what he was talking about with one of the student monks. If you'd like I can add the clip where Moore points to the senior "student" monk demostrate with. The Head Monk told him no, demonstrate with me. I hope eveyone got that :) He DID NOT challenge the Head Monk
PR

If somebody asked me how I deal with random punches and fakes I would first tell them how I read the opponent, and interpret his attacks(elbow/knee watching). Then I would show him the economy of motion that is reflected throughout the WC system by asking him to punch me with any head shot and use only 1 arm to defend against it. This is a drill that we use in the class, 1 arm vs 2, where the partner can through any punch and you have to defend it and get back to centerline positioning with the arm as soon as the defense is done. It teaches many things.

As for Fakes, you realize what is fake and what is real by interpreting distance. A skilled fighter should be able to read distance instantly and know when the opponents tools, whether kicks, punches, etc.., are able to make contact with your vital body parts. Proper Guard structure with your Man/Wu sao allow fewer attacks that the opponent will be able to land, cutting his speed in half and thereby making fakes virtually useless.


James

[sihing]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
I don't think that people want to get that, Phil....

He didn't challenge the monk....and the question - as you say - was about fakes followed by real attacks...as in a hook coming off a straight lead punch.

It's amazing how...no matter how many times you or I say that...and no matter how much the video backs up what we're saying - some people are still in denial.

And yes, Dale (KF) is right...

Where are the videos by all the nay-sayers???

Why don't we see their Wing Chun?

What's going on around here?

Victor, you just admitted in another thread that you only have around 8 students coming to your classes. Try finding time when you have 20+ times more than that in student #'s, while at the same time talking with new prospects and organizing intro lessons for them, while at the same time getting ready for a major student reunion with students as far back as 15 yrs ago, while at the same time teaching at a satellite location, while at the same time writing articles for a provincial MA magazine, while at the same time getting ready for demo's throught the Chinese New Years Celebrations, and living life. This is my priority, not getting clips of myself sparring and showing WC to the people on this forum, who could care less if I post here again or not.

James

[Ernie]

James - cutting his speed in half and thereby making fakes virtually useless


man bro you really are living in a different universe :(

anyone that really spend time infront of really talented people , that really know's how to fight [ real nasty intent ]

will bite fakes sure you will try not to and try and play your game but after you get zapped a few times and your tasting your blood and your mind starts racing it just happens

bro i'm trying my best to play nice these days . but that statement was sooooooooooo not reality !

by your own admission you have not really faced mutli skilled talented fighters

so there is no real research on your part to make such a statement

sorry man but i spit my wine out when i read that one

cool way to make me stain my desk though:D

[sihing]

Originally posted by Ernie
James - cutting his speed in half and thereby making fakes virtually useless


man bro you really are living in a different universe :(

anyone that really spend time infront of really talented people , that really know's how to fight [ real nasty intent ]

will bite fakes sure you will try not to and try and play your game but after you get zapped a few times and your tasting your blood and your mind starts racing it just happens

bro i'm trying my best to play nice these days . but that statement was sooooooooooo not reality !

by your own admission you have not really faced mutli skilled talented fighters

so there is no real research on your part to make such a statement

sorry man but i spit my wine out when i read that one

cool way to make me stain my desk though:D

Sorry to make you spill your wine, lol.

If I occupy a particular area of space is it not impossible for something else to occupy it? If that space is the center of my body then how does one get through it? By coming around, correct (unless of course they have similar skills as WC). Isn't coming around slower than straight in? If that is the case the opponent would have to be quite a bit faster than I can react, for me not to do anything about that round attack, correct? Depending on distance, the further away the attack comes from the better the chance of seeing the movement, especially when watching the elbows, they are slower (2X on the straight and 4X on the hook/round). Visa versa for the closer range attacks, the key here is to not let them in that close and not be doing something yourself to attack them. The point here is this. If my hands are down by my side, this is the easiest it gets for the opponent to strike me. The better the guarding system (placement of the hands in comparison to the opponent) is the harder it gets for him to hit me. I'd rather use the latter, and make it harder for him to connect. Now with proper placement of the feet in comparison to your opponent and proper footwork it gets even harder. When I move on the initiation of his attack, I am no longer there to be hit.

Again as for fakes, when you have economy of motion in your movements, and also proper footwork/placement, you make them slower, cutting their speed down. Produce NO barrier and they have no obstacles to get by and are fast. Put a barrier in front of their tools and they become slower. Recognizing distance, and when I can get hit, is the proper time to attack and make the opponent worry about you, and not the other way around. Of course if I just stand there and try to deflect/block all of his attacks, I will get hit sooner or later. This is the advantage of lateral movement and not just staying down the center dealing with all of his tools.

Please feel free to advise on how you would deal with random attacks and fakes, and we can go from there also.

Again, sorry to have caused your wine accident, I wish I was there to enjoy it with you, as I have a Cuban cigar to start up someday soon, and I'm sure it would be a good time had by all.


James

[Ernie]

bro to much math man not real life distance and angles and elevation plus broken rhythm toss all the formulas out the window ,

this is not about reading a broucher with everything crystallized all nice and pretty

you can give a read , space , a line and in the mid process remove and change it during the counter

it's a sense that come from flight time

call it the x factor or the reality factor people make mistakes

you can draw out a persons defense by just creeping on there reaction border

bate and switch tactics

to be honest wing chun people are some of the easiest people to fake since they don't have a highly developed sense of adjusting to changing distance

could be because I know wing chun and what there looking for though and can give and remove it before they can adapt
who knows

but fakes especially the ones that change direction and speed and elevation in mid flight are very hard to deal with in real life

time for some sleep peace brother

ps i welcome the time for some wine and a good cigar man
email me i got some video to show this stuff no worries

[sihing]

Originally posted by Ernie
"bro to much math man not real life distance and angles and elevation plus broken rhythm toss all the formulas out the window ,"

JR-Without concept where does one start? On internet forums, what else is there? Your experience (just like the old masters and their stories) is fact to you and theory to us?


"this is not about reading a broucher with everything crystallized all nice and pretty"

JR- Again, we have to have a common starting point. Everything I wrote in my post, is adaptable and interuptable, and can change with the circumstance, but when simultaneous attack/defense methodology is ingrained in one's defense/offensive movements then the what if's are minimalized.


"you can give a read , space , a line and in the mid process remove and change it during the counter"

JR-Do all fighters possess this ability? Is it any harder to stop WC movements in mid flight than boxer movements? If not, then who's to say I can't do the same thing also to them?


"it's a sense that come from flight time"

JR- True statement. Sooner or later you have to make in a part of yourself and the way you move and react.


"you can draw out a persons defense by just creeping on there reaction border, bate and switch tactics "

JR-Same can happen to the one drawing out the reaction. If I require little movement to defend, then I can afford to wait longer.


"to be honest wing chun people are some of the easiest people to fake since they don't have a highly developed sense of adjusting to changing distance"

JR- True, I have noticed the samething with other WC lineages. If one knows the proper strategy and has it in their system, then this does not happen, at the least not as often.

"could be because I know wing chun and what there looking for though and can give and remove it before they can adapt
who knows"

Jr- Yes knowing your opponents habits and tactics is a great advantage, but would it work against a stranger that you know nothing about, that has WC experience. Do you have the luxury of experimentation against someone such as this?

"but fakes especially the ones that change direction and speed and elevation in mid flight are very hard to deal with in real life"

JR- Yes they are, that's why you move and hit on the iniatition of his movement (once you are in range to hit me, isn't it true that I am too?), instead of staying down his centerline, in front of his tools.

"time for some sleep peace brother"

JR- have a good sleep, and sweet dreams my friend...



James

[Ultimatewingchun]

Hey Ernie:

I think James owes you a nice bottle of vino.

Red or white?

[Ernie]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Hey Ernie:

I think James owes you a nice bottle of vino.

Red or white?

i'm in my Merlot stage right now :D

[YungChun]

Originally posted by Ernie

sorry man but i spit my wine out when i read that one


Okay, swallow first......

I've done it against boxers....

One of them is my student... :D

It can be done...and

It takes math (structure), distance awareness and balls.. ;)

Hit them on the way in a few times and see who starts to get shy...

[Ernie]

Yung-Okay, swallow first......

I've done it agaisnt boxers....


ok that just sounds nasty :D

You have down what ? pulled off fakes or ?

the thing that bugged me about what James had posted which later he put in a more honest view

was that making fakes impossible , that's way to ''set in stone ''

he explained the wing chun concepts give him a reference point
this is more real world

now don't get me wrong we don't win fights by faking a guy to death

but they can catch you off gaurd , if the guy is good [ ok reality check probably not going to run into a skilled fighter at the market ;) but even ghetto kids got faking skills ]

[YungChun]

Originally posted by Ernie

I've done it agaisnt boxers....


ok that just sounds nasty :D



Good sense of humor… :cool:

I meant I’ve used WC structure to minimize the 'fake/feint problem' against boxers.

Nothing is 100%. I find I am most susceptible to low jabs right now, but what had been posted about structure, etc, minimizing the misdirection problem I have found to be very true and very helpful even when dealing with guys who have real Ring experience.

[sihing]

Originally posted by Ernie
i'm in my Merlot stage right now :D

Me too..gotta love the red wine with a good steak.

I'll have to send you a vintage 2005 from the local store for now, cause that's all the budget can muster, lol.

James

[Ernie]

Originally posted by YungChun
Good sense of humor… :cool:

I meant I’ve used WC structure to minimize the 'fake/feint problem' against boxers.

Nothing is 100%. I find I am most susceptible to low jabs right now, but what had been posted about structure, etc, minimizing the misdirection problem I have found to be very true and very helpful even when dealing with guys who have real Ring experience.

Yep i'm a clown :D
i will offer a small bit of humble advice , often people think of things lik hand position and stances to try and control position and realestate

this are static extensions limbs of the tree

when you control distance and timing [ the trunk of the tree ]
no matter how much power or how a dude stands it doesn't effect you

often the desire to make a shape work to prove a point will cause death to the naturalness of what is really going on ;)

the need to have a certain postion can become just the crutch the other guy uses against you


now to the high low high [ low jab ] since wing chun really places our initial awareness on the box infront of use shoulders to centerline peak
we do tend to neglect the low line and when a guy drops elevation in mid stride this can cause a hic up in our reflexes

it's also why guys that work the ground can pick up the single leg so well off fixed posture fighters

i'm glad that some of the information offered on thsi forum has given you stuff to play with

it's been a long while since useful info has been spread :)

so my 2 cents to you is play with distance

i'm not much a believer in technique to static for me ;)

[Ernie]

Originally posted by sihing
Me too..gotta love the red wine with a good steak.

I'll have to send you a vintage 2005 from the local store for now, cause that's all the budget can muster, lol.

James

hey good loooking out it's not the quality of the wine but of the company you share it with:D

[YungChun]

Thanks,

Despite the use of position I don't find it static. It all depends on how you use it and in sparring nothing stays for more than a second or two anyway - we come back to the line.

With my boxer student I found that smoothly and slowly moving toward him works best - note I am only concerned on the clash or at critical distance. When I move to him all the time it makes things happen faster and gives him less time; If I add in twitchy and threatening head/body feints during the close he starts to fall apart and I can intercept on the prep. For the low line often a stop hit works and I have found dai bong to be indispensable.

[Ernie]

Originally posted by YungChun
Thanks,

Despite the use of position I don't find it static. It all depends on how you use it and in sparring nothing stays for more than a second or two anyway - we come back to the line.

With my boxer student I found that smoothly and slowly moving toward him works best - note I am only concerned on the clash or at critical distance. When I move to him all the time it makes things happen faster and gives him less time; If I add in twitchy and threatening head/body feints during the close he starts to fall apart and I can intercept on the prep. For the low line often a stop hit works and I have found dai bong to be indispensable.

Great then your on the same page [ your controlling distance ]
by moving in or out inches or feet , this causes the person to adjust [ like a camera lens that can not quite find a clear focus ]
then by adding your own [ mixed signals ] it makes the other guy have doubt

nice :D

the down side is when your out skilled the guy has better foot work or is better seasoned , his read will be more educated then yours and blam !
he will zap you but that'a the fun part of research
and what works on thsi boxer may not on the next guy all part of the process

have to run to work but fun conversation !

[sihing]

Originally posted by YungChun
Good sense of humor… :cool:

I meant I’ve used WC structure to minimize the 'fake/feint problem' against boxers.

Nothing is 100%. I find I am most susceptible to low jabs right now, but what had been posted about structure, etc, minimizing the misdirection problem I have found to be very true and very helpful even when dealing with guys who have real Ring experience.

Yes, agreed, if there is any distinguishable opening it is at the abdomen area. The Man/Wu sao structure I use is this: Based on the tan sao, which is the elbow solar plexus height, inner elbow on centerline and palm face height (so when you are in front of a mirror you can't see your face very well, as the palm is covering it), now all you have to do to perform Man sao is lower the forearm (without moving the elbow position) so the palm is down the centerline with the fingers pointed up and nose height. The Man sao is a little more than 3/4 of the way extended, leaving a 2-3" punch available. The Wu sao is by the elbow position but not right beside it (there is a 4-5"gap between the Wu sao and Lead Man sao elbow). It points in the same direction as your body (if right lead the feet/knees/hips/shoulders point 45 deg. to the left, feet side by side, little wider than shoulder width apart, this is our Side Neutral Stance, using it during the non-contact stage) close to the centerline. We drill in class this structure by not moving the guard at all and stopping punches to the face. Although this is not what you would do in a real situation it demonstrates the fact that there are no openings, as long as the foot positioning is proper also.

Since the upper gate is protected the lower gate below the lead elbow is exposed but this area requires more commitment to hit since we are in a side on stance, making it further away from the opponent.

I just read Ernie's last post and I know you don't like static postures. Think of it like a scrimmage line in football, a barrier that reacts, not statue static like. Without the barrier the quarter back is fully exposed, with it in place he has more time to complete his plays, sometimes more successfully than other times, as the defensive line is mixing things up too. Same with a defensive zone in Basketball, the structure reacts with the distancing of the opponent and yourself.

Good posts by all and interesting feed back....



James

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Firstly, Moore used a lauh sau which IS a WC technique. So that WAS a WC technique?
But another WC "instructor" didn't recognize it?
I'm confused.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by sihing
To who am I (or anyone else you’re insinuating) supposed to prove it to, you? You and the others I am "insinuating" (sic) all have posted negative remarks about the WC shown on the various fight and sparring videos that have been posted. You all claim that your fighting abilities would be shown to be more like what "real" WC is about. Not one of you has posted a counter-video to the ones you have criticized, but you continue to post on how you are somehow more skilled than the people on these videos.

Don't you find that ironic?

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by sihing
Try finding time when you have 20+ times more than that in student #'s, while at the same time talking with new prospects and organizing intro lessons for them, while at the same time getting ready for a major student reunion with students as far back as 15 yrs ago, while at the same time teaching at a satellite location, while at the same time writing articles for a provincial MA magazine, while at the same time getting ready for demo's throught the Chinese New Years Celebrations, and living life. This is my priority, not getting clips of myself sparring and showing WC to the people on this forum, who could care less if I post here again or not.Why don't you spend the time you are currently spending writing out and posting all your WC "theories" on putting together your video clips. Post your clips and then your theories might be taken more seriously.

As it is now you, and by association your instructor, are pretty much the laughing stock in many people's eyes based on your posts alone.
Hmmm... On the other hand, posting your videos could possibly make this worse. OK, I see why you might not want to do that.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by sihing

If I occupy a particular area of space is it not impossible for something else to occupy it? If that space is the... blah, theoretical BS, blah, blah, blah, theory, etc.

center of my body then how does one get through it? By coming around.. blah, theoretical BS, blah, blah, blah, theory, etc... blah, theoretical BS, blah, blah, blah, theory, etc.

comes from the better the chance of seeing the movement, especially when watching the elbows, they are slow.. blah, theoretical BS, blah, blah, blah, theory, etc.

I'd rather use the latter, and make it harder for him to connect. Now with proper placement of the feet i.. blah, theoretical BS, blah, blah, blah, theory, etc.

Again as for fakes, when you have economy of motion in .. blah, theoretical BS, blah, blah, blah, theory, etc. James,
You are so far gone in your brainwashed, theoretical centerline, WC dogma BS that you fail to see any type of reality.

If all of your theoretical ramblings were true, top level boxers, Muay Thai fighters, and kickboxers would simply use the straight punch and throw out hooks, uppercuts, and any type of round kicks. There is a lot of incentive in these sports to find the most efficient methods possible to win.

If your theories were true to reality, you could easily have a stable of world class fighters winning at boxing, Muay Thai and kickboxing.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by sihing
Say I or we do that and another MMA comes on the forum next month and asks the same thing as you, PROVE IT! And we do it again for him, and then the same is repeated every month for 12 months. How stupid is that. When does it end? You make your living teaching WC, right? You are stating that you can fight with WC in a "better" manner than any other WC clip that has been seen so far. If this is really true, posting a clip of your WC fighting abilities would be a great way to develop your school, as you would have the reputation of being one of the very few WC figthers who can actually pull off the WC techniques against other fighters.

Also, any time a naysayer argued with you about your theories, you could just refer them to your clips to shut them up. Wouldn't that be great?

[t_niehoff]

KF wrote:

You are so far gone in your brainwashed, theoretical centerline, WC dogma BS that you fail to see any type of reality.

If all of your theoretical ramblings were true, top level boxers, Muay Thai fighters, and kickboxers would simply use the straight punch and throw out hooks, uppercuts, and any type of round kicks. There is a lot of incentive in these sports to find the most efficient methods possible to win.

If your theories were true to reality, you could easily have a stable of world class fighters winning at boxing, Muay Thai and kickboxing.

**But that's all sport, and as we all know, WCK only works in the "street" because our tools are so deadly. Those sports limit our use of these deadly things, so we're helpless in those venues. ;)

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
**But that's all sport, and as we all know, WCK only works in the "street" because our tools are so deadly. Those sports limit our use of these deadly things, so we're helpless in those venues. ;) Oh that's true... stupid me.
We all know that putting on gloves or any other type of protective equipment changes the laws of efficiency.

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
So that WAS a WC technique?
But another WC "instructor" didn't recognize it?
I'm confused.
Lauh (flow). It's the technique right after the punches and tans in our first form. It's similar to a huen but the hand leaves the centerline. It can be used after a fake punch to draw a response from an opponent. Maybe it's hard to distunguish from the quality of the video I posted. It seems as though WC aren't always on the same page regarding terminology.
PR

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
So that WAS a WC technique?
But another WC "instructor" didn't recognize it?
I'm confused.
Hey Dale, here's some Lauh Sau explanation clips.
http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/cheung_punch-lauh_twc_slt.mpeg
http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/cheung_1984_twc_tan-lauh.mpeg
http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/cheung_tan-lauh_twc_slt.mpeg
Phil

[Ultimatewingchun]

"James,
You are so far gone in your brainwashed, theoretical centerline, WC dogma BS that you fail to see any type of reality."


ALRIGHT, Dale (KF)...that's it.

You've finally said something I have to memorialize. I knew you had it in you.

It's now going to appear under my signature until further notice!!!

[YungChun]

Honestly, I think calling that move (you know that large circular slap/swipe) a Lao Sao is just a bit of a stretch.........................

I mean the circles (really like a half arc) in WC are supposed to be tiny = a few inches not a foot or more - that's a circular strike and one I am not familiar with in any WC form.

Lao Sao is used to return to the line or allow them to leave it so you can hit down the line - like most all of the techniques and Lao isn't even a strike.

Victor stated that they wanted to see how he would defend a circular move and that's why he did that - according to what I get from Victor.

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by YungChun
Honestly, I think calling that move (you know that large circular slap/swipe) a Lao Sao is just a bit of a stretch.........................

I mean the circles (really like a half arc) in WC are supposed to be tiny = a few inches not a foot or more - that's a circular strike and one I am not familiar with in any WC form.

Lao Sao is used to return to the line or allow them to leave it so you can hit down the line - like most all of the techniques and Lao isn't even a strike.

Victor stated that they wanted to see how he would defend a circular move and that's why he did that - according to what I get from Victor.
Lauh sau then slap was what was used. Just because you aren't familiar with a particular WC term doen't mean it doesn't exist.
PR

[Phil Redmond]

I studied Cantonese using the Yale University method of Romanization which many say is the best method to pronounce words in Cantonese. (The U.S. Dept. of Foreign Service uses it.)
There is even confusion in TWC. For instance, Bil Jee. The correct way should for 'thrust/dart' should be Biu (beeyu). I informed Cheung Sifu of that as soon as his Bil Jee book came out. He said that it's already published that way. Remember, Chinese don't learn their language using Roman letters so Romanization isn't much of an issue with them. Terms like larp, tarn, gerk, garn, ect. that use the letter 'r' are incorrect. There are NO "R" SOUNDS in Cantonese, period. Larp should be lop, tarn should be daahn, gerk should be geuk, garn should be gan, ect. Some may say it's not important but to me it is. When I speak about kung fu to Chinese they see that I at least have an understanding of the finer points, well at least some of them. :) Chinese usually believe that Lo Fan (some of us) ;) can't really learn Chinese martial arts because we don't understand the language and therefore we won't grasp the finer points in a given system. I cringe when I hear some say Bil Jee. Anyway, lauh is a larger heun. I you look int the Cheung Bil Jee book you'll see the term tarn sau. It's called 'bounce off' arm in the book. It's really daahn. Sifu used tarn to distinguish it from 'tan'.
I'm using Yale Romanzition in my book and I hope it helps unite at least some terms among us. Terminology varies among WC schools. We need to be on the same page with regards to terminology. There are terms that other WC school use that I'd never heard of before. It would be nice if we all got together and shared the terms we are each familiar with. We could post a list of terms and the meaning of the word and maybe even the Chinese character for it.
PR

[YungChun]

Ah yes, the Lao Sao to Beech Slap technique, must be a closed door move unknown to mere mortals.. :rolleyes:

[old jong]

Ultimate slapping championship (http://www.compfused.com/directlink/629/)

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by YungChun
Ah yes, the Lao Sao to Beech Slap technique, must be a closed door move unknown to mere mortals.. :rolleyes:
Don't under estimate a slap. A slap to the face can be a very psycological weapon plus, there could be a single edge razor blade between the fingers of the slapper. Also, the secret, is there is no secret. ;)
PR

[sihing]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
You and the others I am "insinuating" (sic) all have posted negative remarks about the WC shown on the various fight and sparring videos that have been posted. You all claim that your fighting abilities would be shown to be more like what "real" WC is about. Not one of you has posted a counter-video to the ones you have criticized, but you continue to post on how you are somehow more skilled than the people on these videos.

Don't you find that ironic?

LOL...First of all I have never made a Claim of Facts. My Facts are theory to you, and your facts are theory to me, so what are you talking about CLAIMS. I do have definite opinions and there are some that agree, you just happen to be one that doesn't, SO WHAT. Who are you?

James

[sihing]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Why don't you spend the time you are currently spending writing out and posting all your WC "theories" on putting together your video clips. Post your clips and then your theories might be taken more seriously.

As it is now you, and by association your instructor, are pretty much the laughing stock in many people's eyes based on your posts alone.
Hmmm... On the other hand, posting your videos could possibly make this worse. OK, I see why you might not want to do that.

Spend the time writing these post ah...I'm only on here for a hour and a bit in the morning, then off to the school and maybe a quick workout before that and then back here around 9pm, have to eat and live life also. Like I said once this reunion is over, and February is over, then the time will be there. Please don't try to insult me and make me look like I have nothing to offer, or that my instructor doesn't either(Big Mistake there buddy). I have a schedule just like everyone else, it's not as easy as saying, hey you get over here to the school and lets spar, at least it isn't in my case. Plus I never said anything about a deadline of getting my vids online, only that I would do so when I had the time available. And how long was it for Victor to get his vids online, and what about Phil and yourself Dale, and we can't forget Terence either, where are your vids guys?

James

[Phil Redmond]

Dude, don't put me in this. I've put up videos a while back on other threads.
PR

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by sihing
and what about Phil and yourself Dale, and we can't forget Terence either, where are your vids guys? As for me, I'm not claiming anything that you can't see in just about any MMA competition, boxing or Muay Thai match, or BJJ tournament. Watch any of those things and you'll see a representation of what I do. I'm not the one claiming everyone else fighting and sparring videos suck. I'm not even claiming that the WC videos suck. They seem pretty representative of what WC would be like if I were to use it when fighting.

You are the one making judgements about everyone else's ability on the various videos.

Of course, I'm not surprised by your current backpedaling regarding your clips.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by sihing
or that my instructor doesn't either(Big Mistake there buddy). If your posts are representative of what have learned from your instructor, I'm underwhelmed by him.

[sihing]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
As for me, I'm not claiming anything that you can't see in just about any MMA competition, boxing or Muay Thai match, or BJJ tournament. Watch any of those things and you'll see a representation of what I do. I'm not the one claiming everyone else fighting and sparring videos suck. I'm not even claiming that the WC videos suck. They seem pretty representative of what WC would be like if I were to use it when fighting.

You are the one making judgements about everyone else's ability on the various videos.

Of course, I'm not surprised by your current backpedaling regarding your clips.

I guess this is the typical internet forum/chat line egging on behavior I've heard about. I refuse to comment on things I've never said. Please feel free to continue if it makes you feel better Dale.

James

[sihing]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Dude, don't put me in this. I've put up videos a while back on other threads.
PR

Yes and so have I, so why is Dale on my ass? Because I don't agree with things I have seen? So what, who cares, this is only a internet forum, not a proving ground for ones abilities in any endevour. But I have said I will post some sparring clips, so I will do so, when I can. End of story...

James

[Knifefighter]

I
refuse to comment on things I've never said.James-
These are some of the things you have said.

.... and IMO the clip wasn't in any way a representation of TWC...

but when push came to shove they all looked the same,
basically going back to sloppy kickboxing

Regarding the video, I viewed that video months ago and yeah he is fast in it , but like
allot of WC out there lacks good positoning, In all fairness, though, I may have judged your "judgements" on the videos a bit harshly. I may have mixed up some of the other theoretical non-fighters' comments on the videos in with what I thought you said. If that is the case, that was my bad and I apoligize for that.

.

so why is Dale on my ass?
I was on your ass because I thought you had said you could do better under fighting conditions. If that is not your contention, then I stand corrected and apologize for that also.

[sihing]

I accept the apology, as I'd rather have friendly debates and discussion, and if we have to agree to disagree then so be it.

I too may have been to critical of some things that I have seen on video before so I will try not to be so in the future.

When I look at WC and what people are doing with it I don't look at the individual (which seems to be against what most are looking at these days in Martial Arts and effectiveness), I look at what the system teaches someone. The system I practice and teach is very technical and precise in the way we do things, and IMO it is very effective, but not everyone will agree and that's okay as we all have to do what we think is right, and I would appreciate a opportunity to witness another way of doing it as I believe you can learn something from everyone.

James

[rogue]

When I look at WC and what people are doing with it I don't look at the individual (which seems to be against what most are looking at these days in Martial Arts and effectiveness), I look at what the system teaches someone.
But isn't that a red flag James? If TWC is a system and the system can not produce consistent results by the time a student hits a certain point or rank then could there be a flaw in the the system and it's training methods?:confused:

[sihing]

Originally posted by rogue
But isn't that a red flag James? If TWC is a system and the system can not produce consistent results by the time a student hits a certain point or rank then could there be a flaw in the the system and it's training methods?:confused:

Yes this is true, that's why we have tests. I will say that if someone is not putting in the effort to understand what the system is trying to teach and physical effort in to learn it then you will just not be able to perform or use it at all, or very little of it. For example, is it fair to look at the way Leung Ting performs his WT and then after you analysis it and find something wrong then is it fair to say that there is a flaw in the system? IMO yes. He is the leader of the system so he should know exactly what to do and how to do it and to explain it in detail also. Of course this is once person’s opinion of the flaw.

In my kwoon there are certain expectations of skill at certain levels within the system, if one does not show that level of skill then they will not test for that level, simple. Some take longer to learn it and some are faster at learning it, allot of this depends on many factors.


James

[VingDragon]

we all sucks (http://www.jukoryu.com/TV/sudo.mpg) :D :D :D

[Sifu Moore]

I know this is an old thread and everyone has probably moved on I just wanted to add some comments in response to James's response to the footage of the Shaolin Warrior Monk and Myself

James wrote:

..."Easy to see that he could have kept his ground? He went in to attack and fell/retreated backwards, almost losing his balance, throwing a hook at the same time that ended up being 3 feet too far from the Monk, who never moved backwards once. Yes he did get the slap in on the monk but it was because the monk had his guard down and the opening was there, to which then I guess Moore could have came in more committed with a harder strike..." (snip) "...Besides that I still don't understand why the confrontation happened anyways. So what, the younger monks were c0cky and thought they were all this or that, does challenging one of them to see what they would do in a half hearted sparring session help the situation? Lol. Maybe being humble enough to let them think what they want and realize the truth for yourself would have been a better reaction by a true Martial Artist. If the whole situation was no big deal and warranted why did Cheung get upset?...J " Jameswww.wingchun-canada.com


Sifu Moore writes:

Greetings James,

Happy New Year to you and all the list members and may 2005 be a fruitful and rewarding to you and your organizations.

Regarding my trip to the Shaolin Temple June of 04. It is always interesting and revealing to read all of the speculation that goes on in these threads. I guess if you do not have the ability to witness something first hand your only left with speculation. So for anyone speculating on these particular events, let me state the facts as I was the only one on this list that was there.

First Thank you for the Kinds words from Master Phil Redmond and Master Victor Parlatti.

The Facts:

The stage had been set for some freindly sparring between the Sifus of the TWC system and the Shaolin Monks. It was to be billed a"freindly exchange of information" and was to be done in private. It was not my idea and I did expect to participate.
From what I was told later, the monks switched the plans at the last minute to a public event. There were probably over 50 spectators...a perferct setting for a loss of ego control.

It was my opinion that sparring with the monks if they brought it up was acceptable. Afterall who could pass up an opportunity to exchange with the mecca of all MA the Shaolin Temple. However I was seriously against any of my people initiating a challenge to the monks in their own house. Afterall, these are our Grandparents. Shaolin is root of our WC ancestoral heritage and do something like that seemed extremly discrespectful and not a good example of the true Martial Way.

So when I was told what was going on in the Ballroom I went to see for myself. When I arrived I could feel the tension as I saw the looks on the faces of the Monks and of the other TWC Sifu's.
The potential for escalation was obvious and I had initially decided to seperate myself from the whole event. I didnt think it would actually happen and when I realized that it was going to happen ,I wanted no part of it. I was in China, a life long dream and then on top of it all , I was training and interacting with The Shaolin Temple and real warroir monks. This was definately NOT how I wanted to start of the relationship or finish it for that matter.

So I came into the Ballroom and sat across the room away from the other Sifus. There had already been some converstaion going back and forth between the TWC Sifus and the Shaolin Monks and with each question brought more tension. It was then that I decided that the "Freindly Exchange of Information" between my WC family members and the Monks should not take place. As it was my strong feeling that an all out brawl was about to occur at any momement. And based on post conversations with all parties involed , my observation was accurate .

So before anything could happen, I decided to put myself in between the situation as a buffer. I figuired I would trade a little with the Monks, and if anything happend I could control the sitaution and my ego and prevent escalation. I CANNOT say the same for the others as the mere fact that they would initiate something like this in the first place is ALL EGO. In any regard, I accomplished exactly what I planned and thwarted a potentially deadly international incident. In fact, the head Warior said as much to me the following day and invited me back to the shaolin temple to continue my trainning with him.

Now, regarding your speculation on what you veiwed in the clip of my less then 30 second exchange with the Head Warroir Monk of the Shaolin Temple.

In my mind, i was the guest and he was my senoir. I definately wanted to demonstrate respct to him in his own house. I had initially asked the translater to tell one of the more junior monks that I would throw some srikes at him and he would have to respond. Something must of went wrong in the translation because I ended up with the Head Warroir Monk. Tradition usually calls for a Junior before a senoir. In fact, just prior to what you saw on the clip I had pointed out one of the Junior Monks who had been starring me down the entire evening. Again I did not want to direspect the head monk in way and you will see me gesture to him with my hands open in a "are you sure" kind of way and then give him the buddist greeting and bow of respect when I realized it would be him and not the others.

Since I did want to control the situation, I had already decided to keep it light and NOT to threaten the Head Monk in anyway. The question that had just been posed to him was how would they deal with rapid fire punching ( like in WC).

So when I attack the Monk I made sure to use an Open Hand (non threatning) and to avoid using the amount of normal forward pressure that I put on opponents. I had been doing that before Wing Chun and anyone who has seen me fight in competitions and/or in real life know what I mean and can attest to that. But you of course do not have that privalage James so I understand and appreciate your comments despite their inaccuracy. You made a judgement based on the limited info that was presented to you.

In actuality, I knew I had to be fast but nonthreatning. So I gave the Monk some high references and then low references using multiple strikes to set up an potential opportunity. I wanted to create a level of sensory deprivation to create an opening and it worked. That is why the palm slap connected. And I did not loose my balance on the initial attack. Whatch it again with a faster bandwidth connection. What you saw was a 300lb man stop on a dime and "backed dat thang up" as they say. I knew there was the potential that the monk would be quick and so extending the distance to extend the time it would take him to reach me was a good choice on my part on several levels. Each time I took only two back half steps and then would step of the line of attack as the clip shows.

In light of the situation if I had done any other type of entry and then followed through it would of most certainly of threatend the monk as I would of forced him to become defensive. If he was my enemy or a true opponent and the situation were different I would of most certantly would have pressured him . As I said in this situation, I am glad I did not as it would have defeniately changed the tone of the encouter.

So it worked, no one else got up to fight there were no international incidences. The Head Monk respected me for my control and demonstrated that by his energy and actions during the encounter and after. It was my responsibility to show respect and humble myself to him and his house. So I did. That is how I was raised...to respect family (from low to high) and that is what I expect from my students. Where I come from, we dont start fights but we definately are taught to finish them. Just like the Art of War..."My eneny starts first, but I finish first. I was in an emergency situation and this is what I decided was the best way to handle the situation in the limited time I had to think about it.


As for Grandmaster Cheung getting upset,well that was probably more a political issue. He had to allow the Monk to save face and there was more going on behind the scences that most know that warrented a healthy relationship between the Shaolin Temple and Wing Chun. He has also expressed to me his apporval of my actions based on what he knows were my true motives.

So In the end, I think it was the true martial Way to potentially scarifice myself for the well being of my family members on both sides and eliminate any potential violence that would have ensued. I did not issue the challange but I did end or stop the real fight from happening...ahhh...The art of fighting without fighting.....and all I had to do was take two steps back and then off the line. :)

All the best to you on your WC Journey

Your Brother in WC,

Sifu Shannon Moore
http://www.templewingchun.com

[Phil Redmond]

Thanks for your input. I didn't want to post too many details of what was going on there without your permission. BTW. Keith Mazza also confirms the incident as you did. ;)
PR

[Ultimatewingchun]

Spoken like the true gentleman that I've always known you to be, Shannon.

I'm proud of you.

[Shäolin]

Originally posted by Sifu Moore

When I arrived I could feel the tension as I saw the looks on the faces of the Monks and of the other TWC Sifu's.
The potential for escalation was obvious and I had initially decided to seperate myself from the whole event.


But instead somehow it seemed that under the circumstances slapping the unprepared head monk was the way to go... :rolleyes:


Originally posted by Sifu Moore

I was in China, a life long dream and then on top of it all , I was training and interacting with The Shaolin Temple and real warroir monks. This was definately NOT how I wanted to start of the relationship or finish it for that matter.


Still, it seemed that under the circumstances slapping the unprepared head monk was the way to go... :rolleyes:


Originally posted by Sifu Moore


So I came into the Ballroom and sat across the room away from the other Sifus. There had already been some converstaion going back and forth between the TWC Sifus and the Shaolin Monks and with each question brought more tension. It was then that I decided that the "Freindly Exchange of Information" between my WC family members and the Monks should not take place. As it was my strong feeling that an all out brawl was about to occur at any momement.


So it seemed that a BRAWL was about to break out and so...
it seemed that under the circumstances slapping the unprepared head monk was the way to go... :rolleyes:


Originally posted by Sifu Moore

So before anything could happen, I decided to put myself in between the situation as a buffer. I figuired I would trade a little with the Monks, and if anything happend I could control the sitaution and my ego and prevent escalation. I CANNOT say the same for the others as the mere fact that they would initiate something like this in the first place is ALL EGO. In any regard, I accomplished exactly what I planned and thwarted a potentially deadly international incident.


Yes of course you felt that you could best avoid an international incident and used yourself as a buffer in order to take the safest course of action which naturally involved slapping the unprepared head monk! Sir, you must be an expert in de-escalation.

Yes very clear - about as clear as mud.

It is quite clear that the monk did not expect to be attacked and was not prepared to fight after your little bow in and slap attack. Too bad the forward intent of the Monk was stopped by Cheung Sifu as the favor would most certainly have been returned right then and there.

Another sad Wing Chun display for the entire world to mull over – congratulations!

]

[Ultimatewingchun]

Shaolin:

Slapping means that he used AN OPEN HAND.

This has always been a tradition within martial arts circles when no real intent to hurt is in play.


Would you have preferred that Shannon use a closed fist?

And to say that the monk was unprepared for what happened clearly demonstrates that you either haven't seen the video or you have ulterior motives.

[SAAMAG]

Vic,

Sometimes people can get very offended when anyone talks about their art shaolin....because as you know every chinese art with the word shaolin in it's name must be directly from the monks right? Just look at shaolin doh.....

Shaolin, you seriously need to chill out with that stuff...you know nothing of the subject, weren't there, and probably are the ****hest thing from being a shaolin monk, go wine somewhere else.

[VingDragon]

who wants to be his student (http://d14.yousendit.com/E/1A8VQHDDIUIHV0KF195SEHO5MB/1108736293814.wmv) ? :D

Mr Satoru Sayama in action - Shooto training

http://s14.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1A8VQHDDIUIHV0KF195SEHO5MB

[Fresh]

who wants to be his student (http://d14.yousendit.com/E/1A8VQHDDIUIHV0KF195SEHO5MB/1108736293814.wmv) ? :D

Mr Satoru Sayama in action - Shooto training

http://s14.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1A8VQHDDIUIHV0KF195SEHO5MB

Looks like Terrance put up a video of himself after all! :D

[Vajramusti]

Looks like Terrance put up a video of himself after all---------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
???Where?
Vingdragon's link- didnt work for me.

[Fresh]

Just joking around Joy. It is not really Terrance. The instructor in the video is brutal enough to match his tuff talk though. The first link did not work for me also but the second one did.

[Vajramusti]

Thanks for the info Fresh

Joy

[Phil Redmond]

Looks like Terrance put up a video of himself after all---------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
???Where?
Vingdragon's link- didnt work for me.
Hey Joy, try this. this guy needs his butt kicked really good.
http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/Satoru.wmv
Phil

[Vajramusti]

Thanks Phil.
Re the "teacher"---someone should give him a good dose of
"medicine".

joy

[kj]

Well that's a good example of someone who's become notably imbalanced.

Regards,
- kj

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey guys,
His name is Satoru Sayama and I believe he was in the WWF.
Here's another photo of him on the top left

http://www.society.webcentral.com.au/shoot_fighting_in_japan.htm

[Phil Redmond]

Thanks Phil.
Re the "teacher"---someone should give him a good dose of
"medicine".

joy
You're welcome Joy. That guy needs some counseling.
Phil

[Matrix]

That guy needs some counseling.He reminds me, both in terms of appearance and demeanor, of Bolo from Enter the Dragon for some reason.

Bill