Conditioning is the real deciding factor in a fight.

[SAAMAG]

THINK about this long and hard fellas...are you getting the conditioning that you need to perform well in a fight?

Even though wing chun capitalizes on using the other persons energy, even though wing chun fights are supposed to last no more then 3 seconds....what if the other person's skills are higher than the average person and the fight lasts longer then you had hoped? What then?

I haven't trained HARD since I was full time Muay thai almost ten years ago (when I was 18). I've had a full out hiatus from martial arts all together since mid 2001 when I was sent on deployment in the military, and on top of that after returning in 2002 I broke my wrist. (which is still broken to this day after two surgeries....)

Most of you know that I've recently taken up my wing chun again at an EBMAS school and today was a big slap in the face in terms of what kind of shape I was in. We started drilling "one step style" the attacker being "style-less" and the defender being wing tsun. The attacker attacks once, defender does some sort of simultaneous attack/defence. Next...the attacker attacks once and the defender does the same thing, and then follows with more techniques (chain punches most of the time). Next...the attacker attacks twice, and the defender unloads as before....and then finally, the attacker attacks over and over and the defender does his wing chun thing. Now of course we're wearing gloves and mouthpieces...cups if you had em. We did this for 2 minutes rounds (with only a few seconds in between for rest)....for about an hour and a half.

Initially, my hands were fast, precise, and spot on in terms of accuracy. After incorperating sweeps and kicks...I did even better. OBvious hits from chain punching aside, I dropped a few guys with sweeps and caught a couple with some good elbows...(one guy has a nice reminder above his eye not to lean forward into me anymore.) But I'm not afraid to say now that my cardio sucks. It got to the point that I was so tired that I couldnt give a viable attack let alone defense. By then I was basically a muk jong for these guys to pummel with the occasional hit back. Especially when I was TAKEN TO THE GROUND, now I have limited experience in BJJ, but again, I was so tired I couldn't put up an effective defense, and ended up getting a figure four lock on my arm...(ironically from the same fella I tattooed with my elbow).

Long story short, I'm going to be upping my cardio now....and doing a lot more sparring and drills to exhaustion. I have never been one to get hit in the face very often, and today I was a friggin speed bag. I don't like it....I'm not used to being on the receiving end. It really ****es me off. All my "proper" techniques...all my sensetivity...all my angles done right, and it all turns to shiet when you don't have the fuel to sustain it. So let this be a reminder for all you armchair martial artists and "softies" that if you don't train to fight....you won't be able to. Time to put up or shut up.

I will try to see if my sifu will allow me to film the training for you guys...but can't make any guarantees.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I've believed for quite some time now that the 3 ingredients required for being a successful fighter are:

1) WILL

2) CONDITIONING

3) SKILL



In that order..............................

Skill (technique) is last on the list. (Athough all three are important).

Paradoxically, however...since I'm now 54 years old...and I do strive to be in real good condition at all times (including cardio)...I find that my cardio endurance nonetheless more often than not -

can't keep up with someone 20+ years younger and in real good cardio shape. (I might spar all out with someone for about three minutes or so - and then I'll probably be running out of gas - but they probably won't be).

So I have to rely heavily on Will and Skill...and concentrate on ending all "encounters" as quickly as I can...which has affected my entire fight philosophy in recent years. (And has also affected my thinking as to exactly what types of techniques and strategies I should concentrate upon developing).

Don't want to "spar" when I spar...don't want to get into a Wing Chun "boxing match" when I spar...don't want to get into a prolonged grappling match when I wrestle...

Just want to successfully end the encounter as quickly as I can.

The video clips I'm going to put up will reflect this.

Don't get me wrong, though. I'm not a believer in the "three second" Wing Chun fight - or the one punch knockout. If it happens...fine. But I'm not expecting it to happen - and I don't go looking for the one-punch (or one-kick) knockout.

What I do look for is a quick attempt to begin "controlling" my opponent's body (whether it be standing or on the ground)...nullifying his potential weapons...and then going in for the finish. (And the better your technique is - the more you can begin to control WHILE striking/kicking, etc.)

And I stop sparring/wrestling when I run out of gas.

Take a rest...and start over.

Don't see any benefit (and much potential danger) to continue sparring/wrestling competitively when there's no cardio endurance left.

Occasionally I might push myself when tired (just to see how far I can go before exhaustion) - but it's very rare.

Took me a long time to see the wisdom in this...(the ego said..."No, I can still go on").

But the body wasn't willing.

That's when you can get injured while training competitively with a partner. (He may not know how vulnerable you really are...and may do something at full speed/power that he would normally expect you to be able to deal with or absorb without too much of a problem - but you can't this time.)

Got to conserve your energy when it's running on empty.

[yellowpikachu]

ofcouse,

Conditiong is the Kung of the Kung fu.

as it said, training in technics doesnt train in Kung, one can do that until old age and everything is an empty training.

[IRONMONK]

I have started to add strength and conditioning to my training and it has made a big difference!!!

this is a good site with articles on conditioning for fighting:

http://www.rossboxing.com/thegym.html

[Kevin Bell]

Originally posted by Vankuen
THINK about this long and hard fellas...are you getting the conditioning that you need to perform well in a fight?

Even though wing chun capitalizes on using the other persons energy, even though wing chun fights are supposed to last no more then 3 seconds....what if the other person's skills are higher than the average person and the fight lasts longer then you had hoped? What then?

I haven't trained HARD since I was full time Muay thai almost ten years ago (when I was 18). I've had a full out hiatus from martial arts all together since mid 2001 when I was sent on deployment in the military, and on top of that after returning in 2002 I broke my wrist. (which is still broken to this day after two surgeries....)

Most of you know that I've recently taken up my wing chun again at an EBMAS school and today was a big slap in the face in terms of what kind of shape I was in. We started drilling "one step style" the attacker being "style-less" and the defender being wing tsun. The attacker attacks once, defender does some sort of simultaneous attack/defence. Next...the attacker attacks once and the defender does the same thing, and then follows with more techniques (chain punches most of the time). Next...the attacker attacks twice, and the defender unloads as before....and then finally, the attacker attacks over and over and the defender does his wing chun thing. Now of course we're wearing gloves and mouthpieces...cups if you had em. We did this for 2 minutes rounds (with only a few seconds in between for rest)....for about an hour and a half.

Initially, my hands were fast, precise, and spot on in terms of accuracy. After incorperating sweeps and kicks...I did even better. OBvious hits from chain punching aside, I dropped a few guys with sweeps and caught a couple with some good elbows...(one guy has a nice reminder above his eye not to lean forward into me anymore.) But I'm not afraid to say now that my cardio sucks. It got to the point that I was so tired that I couldnt give a viable attack let alone defense. By then I was basically a muk jong for these guys to pummel with the occasional hit back. Especially when I was TAKEN TO THE GROUND, now I have limited experience in BJJ, but again, I was so tired I couldn't put up an effective defense, and ended up getting a figure four lock on my arm...(ironically from the same fella I tattooed with my elbow).

Long story short, I'm going to be upping my cardio now....and doing a lot more sparring and drills to exhaustion. I have never been one to get hit in the face very often, and today I was a friggin speed bag. I don't like it....I'm not used to being on the receiving end. It really ****es me off. All my "proper" techniques...all my sensetivity...all my angles done right, and it all turns to shiet when you don't have the fuel to sustain it. So let this be a reminder for all you armchair martial artists and "softies" that if you don't train to fight....you won't be able to. Time to put up or shut up.

I will try to see if my sifu will allow me to film the training for you guys...but can't make any guarantees.


Conditioning is a major factor in a fight as is the ability to punch someone excessively hard and make sure they stay down. they all go hand in hand technical,tactical skill, conditioning speed timing etc most importantly making sure it works in a real fight. good post impressed with Victor not taking it easy sets a good example to the younger lazy people who rest on their laurels...

What conditioning you doing at the mo?

[t_niehoff]

Vankuen,

I agree with you -- conditioning is critical. It goes back to the old swimming metaphor, one can't be a good swimmer without being in good condition (it doesn't matter if you know the backstroke if you gas in seconds). And the training to become a good swimmer, swimming in the pool, puts you in good condition (though as you point out, you can supplement it). This is why you can look at someone and tell they have no fighting skill -- soft, out-of-shape, easily winded -- regardless of what title they've given themselves. Moreover, skill in WCK isn't something you attain and then have it for life; it's like any fighting skill, you must maintain it (stay in shape, etc.).

[Ultimatewingchun]

Kevin:

Lots of stretching (the entire body)
Hindu pushups
situps
Hindu squats
pull-ups
chin-ups
back bridges
jogging
shadow-boxing
chi gung breathing exercises
curls

[Frank Exchange]

By your own admission, you were fine at the beginning, it was only after a long time that you got too tired to hit hard and accurately, but wouldn't a real fight be over by then?

Sure, bearing in mind there is always somebody stronger, faster, better trained, harder than you etc. and you want to be the best you can be, do you not think that there is a point of diminishing returns?

[yellowpikachu]

conditioning lead to a question of what specific type of mind/body conditioning and the characteristics of the result.

As in the Chinese Martial art, the harder style is not condition thier body similar to the softer style.
The kicker style will condition thier body different then the arms style.
The Kiu Sau style will not condition thier body simillar to the momentum manuval style.... list goes on.

That doesnt mean one conditioning is better then other, but there are different type or same type different weight of conditioning to support the style.


This bring back to the Enginee of the Style. Because IMHHO the enginee is the Kung which is directly based on the methodology of the conditioning.


IMHHHO.

As a further example, the Shao Lin's Yee Jing Jing is condition the body different then the taiJi's reel silk. Producing different type of power which is suitable for thier style.

Both Choy Lee Fut and White Crane Weng Chun are using "stone lock" as it called Yan Tze Pai or sek so in cantonese. but they do it differently since thier power generation is different.



So, as for WCK, IMHHO, that SLT/SNT set is also a conditioning set. which is different with the Karate's san chin set ( note that I didnt use the San Chin of White Crane Wing Chun because within White CRane wing Chun there are different sets of San Chin. so I use the karate san chin set as contrast where most people will know)


So, I disagree with "just fighting". There are more to that. and lots of issue needs to be solved interm of mind/body conditioning to suite a particular style.


At the end, here is a sentence Terence or some of you might not like to listern. and please ignore me if you dont like to listern.

Technical history finding will let one to be able to find out what kind of Conditioning and the process of the conditioning design for that particular style. and it is very critical because without knowing that particular conditioning. One can have great general conditioning but will not be able to activate or optimize the style. Such as, if one take away the Inch Jing Join Power of the White Crane Weng Chun's or its white Crane decendent style. The style's will not be as effective as it was designed.

IMHHHO
Wing Chun if using the Southern Matis/Hakka style conditioning, Then Wing Chun will lost/become not effective in that Reeling/binding characteristics.
Wing Chun if using the Shao Lin TaiZhu style of conditioning, Then Wing Chun will lost /become not effective in that Reeling/binding characteristics.
Wing Chun if using the Boxing conditioning, Then
Wing Chun will lost/become not effective in that Reeling/binding characteristics.

Thus, that is the significant of technical history and finding out what, how, why.... the enginee can be started.

A reason of the existance of the Qi stuff is about to be able to monitor the path and the weight of the conditioning process, beside using breathing as an indicator. how do one knows one's heart functioning is going weak? monitoring that heart medirians.


Thus, Chan by itself doesnt solve all the problem. Qi by itself doesnt solve all the problem. Breathng by itself doesnt solve all the problem. stucture by itself doesnt solve all the problem..... it is an integrated system one is looking at.




Not a simple issues. everything is linking to everything.
IMHHHO.


I hope that people understand seraching into History is not about who is the oldest or most original or any secret technics but it is all about do we understand what kind of technology/conditioning was developed and thier effectiveness. without clearly knowing the technology/conditioning of a style in Chinese Martial art is just kidding ourself that we know that style. We can add and import and mix before we have a clear understanding. But is it that style? or we just create one of our own?




just some thoughts.


--------------------------------------------------------------------
The best proof of a correct history is about found the key for others to be able to turn on the enginee of SLT/SNT for whoever and whatever lineage from RedBoat as it is. and heard "WOW, it works!" with joy.

[Kevin Bell]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
Vankuen,

I agree with you -- conditioning is critical. It goes back to the old swimming metaphor, one can't be a good swimmer without being in good condition (it doesn't matter if you know the backstroke if you gas in seconds). And the training to become a good swimmer, swimming in the pool, puts you in good condition (though as you point out, you can supplement it). This is why you can look at someone and tell they have no fighting skill -- soft, out-of-shape, easily winded -- regardless of what title they've given themselves. Moreover, skill in WCK isn't something you attain and then have it for life; it's like any fighting skill, you must maintain it (stay in shape, etc.).


Crikey Terence had to catch myself there you mentioned swimming without reference to dry land swimming:D :D Actually i propose the phrase armchair general?? What do you reckon??

Actually Terence i use swimming on my GPP days on the Conjugate method for anaerobic stuff. Done in the correct manner = HELL!!!!!

Victor
I impressed for a middle age gent (i hope i've worded that politely) you are actively practising S&C. There are to many people who misunderstand S&C usually conjuring up images of "Arnie" (oh dear)..You have my respect sir.

[Ernie]

conditioning
no brainer , you should be conditioning yourself for no other reason then a better quality of life

if you base you conditioning only for a martial art then your an idoit and a slave :D

as for how the old dead guys conditioned Hendrik bro there is no proof what so ever that they had any real skill , not one shread of factual proof ,

there is only one real power in combat , the ability to do damage to another person trying to do damage to you in motion

no sitting in stances , breathing , doing forms , hitting a dummy , reeling , sinking , burping ****ing

none of that equates to functional power

there is no proof ,

sure if you create the game [ set the fixed limits ] you can demonstrate any magical bs you want

but once you break the dam and the water starts rushing in on all sides things change

any one can become the king of the kingdom they create , but that kingdom my have no functional purpose in the real world ,

but people still search for atlantis and the ark chasing shadows i guess

hey who cares , as long as you can be the king of your kingdom right !

[Nick Forrer]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Kevin:

Lots of stretching (the entire body)
Hindu pushups
situps
Hindu squats
pull-ups
chin-ups
back bridges
jogging
shadow-boxing
chi gung breathing exercises
curls

I do pretty much the same except I add

Forms
Punching drills
Stepping/turning drills

Shrimping
Leg scissors (for open guard conditioning)

1 leg calf raises
Alternate Lunges
Hand post Stand ups

and I subtract

shadow boxing, chi gung and pull ups (no space for a bar in my flat -sometime do bent over dumbell rows)

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Ernie

as for how the old dead guys conditioned Hendrik bro there is no proof what so ever that they had any real skill , not one shread of factual proof ,

there is only one real power in combat , the ability to do damage to another person trying to do damage to you in motion





Your opinion is accepted and embrace.
But is it reality? that is a big question.


Very true, and agree.
"There is only one real power in combat, the ability to do damage to another person trying to do damage to you in motion"

However, there is a different in power. The Tsunami power, The rock rooling down from hill power. The wild forest fire burning power. The power of arrow and bow. The power of bullets. The power of communication jamming. The power of neuclear weapon. The power of laser cannon. The power of TNT.

There is only "power" but there are ways and ways to reach to that "power". Different people due to different condition getting different power.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
When there is riot in the country where the people of the world starving and have no grain to eat. the Queen said, why dont they just eat meat. It is only Food Power. big deal. and there is no proof that grains feed better. :D

BTW. the grain eater has less tendency to develop heart problem.:D

[Ernie]

There is only "power" but there are ways and ways to reach to that "power". Different people due to different condition getting different power.-Hendrik

better to say there is a result when power is correct

how to to create that result is the real question

how to test that result will keep you on the right path

untested results are a lie

for example Vankuen did not know how deep his well was until he pressure tested himself and was honest about the result

based on that result he will then have a plan to improve his results

this is personal not general , the only way to improve your results is to test and evaluate

then you can take in information from others that have proven there training methods and produced similar results to what you are after

and borrow there methods

then test again and see what happens

but to just do something because you heard or read it worked 1,000 years ago for some non proven person

is not logical and can waste alot of time

as always the individual will always be greater then the system

systems only offer methods

the person makes them work

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Ernie
There is only "power" but there are ways and ways to reach to that "power". Different people due to different condition getting different power.-Hendrik

better to say there is a result when power is correct

how to to create that result is the real question

how to test that result will keep you on the right path

untested results are a lie

for example Vankuen did not know how deep his well was until he pressure tested himself and was honest about the result

based on that result he will then have a plan to improve his results

this is personal not general , the only way to improve your results is to test and evaluate

then you can take in information from others that have proven there training methods and produced similar results to what you are after

and borrow there methods

then test again and see what happens

but to just do something because you heard or read it worked 1,000 years ago for some non proven person

is not logical and can waste alot of time

as always the individual will always be greater then the system

systems only offer methods

the person makes them work


great post.

[Kevin Bell]

Originally posted by Nick Forrer
I do pretty much the same except I add

Forms
Punching drills
Stepping/turning drills

Shrimping
Leg scissors (for open guard conditioning)

1 leg calf raises
Alternate Lunges
Hand post Stand ups

and I subtract

shadow boxing, chi gung and pull ups (no space for a bar in my flat -sometime do bent over dumbell rows)


Hey Nick

shadow boxing? i didnt know you done some boxing. If you do come down to Soton to do the Anti Grappling sesh maybe we can get the gloves out and do some boxing as well.



Ernie,
Dont you know that under the pavement theres a monster that comes up from the floor via your body and gives you a sledge hammer type punch???:) :)


Cheers chaps
Kev

[Ernie]

kev
Ernie,
Dont you know that under the pavement theres a monster that comes up from the floor via your body and gives you a sledge hammer type punch???



what if you in pool or on snow :) i was stuck in the snow all weekend by a lake so it was fresh on my mind


as for my work outs

as of 2 weeks ago nothing ! i'm eating like a pig and doing nothing !

well except for the running and stretching and rehab on my arm :D

[Kevin Bell]

Ernie,

Thus i heard according to legend the monster can also swim ever heard of loch ness???

[[Eating like a pig and taking a well earned rest...]]

Good job as well. Rest is the most important thing right now bro, heal that darn arm!!!! Plus you've earnt the rest and the fun thing is putting yourself back through the mill and getting it back!!!

As im sat here now i've come off of three gym sesh's in two days (bank holiday monday just gone had to make up a day yesterday with two gym sessions) two hour WC sesh last night, gym today boxing tonight and cycling to work at 6 30am tomorrow Pilates tomorrow night. Friday Max Effort lower body and an appointment with the Concept two rower.Vegetable steamer on the go right now and looking forward to two days rest at the weekend and a glass of the red stuff.

[anerlich]

It goes back to the old swimming metaphor

NOOOOO!!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

Strength, endurance (includes will), skill.

If you outstrip your opponent in 2 of these three areas, IMO the odds are on your side.

[iblis73]

Wow, now I kinda miss training with Nico and that crew.....I remember they were always very gung ho and really pushed you (but werent nuts.) Conditioning for short burts like 15, 30 60 and 120 second rounds is great. It allows one a lot more breathing room in the street so to speak. What few realize is the debilitating effect an adrenaline dump can have on you during an altercation-its BAD for me anyways, tires me out incredibly fast.

[Kevin Bell]

Wow, now I kinda miss training with Nico and that crew.....I remember they were always very gung ho and really pushed you (but werent nuts.) Conditioning for short burts like 15, 30 60 and 120 second rounds is great. It allows one a lot more breathing room in the street so to speak. What few realize is the debilitating effect an adrenaline dump can have on you during an altercation-its BAD for me anyways, tires me out incredibly fast.


Bingo,
Hence the need for big Anaerobic style workouts. Try Milling and you'll confirm how tiring it is... Good call on the adrenal dump also emotive fear worth a mention...

I operate a rotate system on my Anaerobic drills all designed to break sap the will destroy feel pain and hit me from different angles

Important point worth mentioning is as Ernie said earlier people should be working out anyway for a better quality life.

[SAAMAG]

Of course people should work out in general, I do that now...but not to the level I guess that would sustain my newfound martial arts training levels.

I go to the gym, lift what weight I can given my wrist, swim, run, hit the bag (lightly of course)

I THOUGHT I was in decent shape...but come to find out...I wasn't. I just didn't know it till that night.

I used to be able to fight for a long time before burning out...it's like a measuring cup for me....I can see how good I'm doing as far as conditioning by how well I perform.

[canglong]

Vankuen,
The "asking hand" isn't questioning are you in shape its asking what do you know. Knowledge is king.

[anerlich]

The "asking hand" isn't questioning are you in shape its asking what do you know.

It's more accurately asking what do you know THAT YOU CAN APPLY. If I know I can knock the guy out with a right cross, but I'm too tired to lift my arms, that knowledge is useless.

I can remember many times in BJJ with a bigger stronger partner when I've known how to escape but after ten minutes plus of wrestling have been too exhausted to do it.

[SAAMAG]

Exactly, it doesn't matter how many techniques you know or how well you can apply them when you're fresh...if you're tired.

Obviously the point to this thread is to come to the realization that at some point you're going to be exhausted...and the better shape you are in the later that time will be, and the longer you will be able to apply your "knowledge" with some effectiveness.

If you think otherwise...keep dreamin. The day will come for all.

[canglong]

It's more accurately asking what do you know THAT YOU CAN APPLY.At no time should the ability of an opponent be under estimated.
Obviously the point to this thread is to come to the realization that at some point you're going to be exhausted...and the better shape you are in the later that time will be, and the longer you will be able to apply your "knowledge" with some effectiveness. Vankuen,
If you KNOW this before hand in the final analysis this too can be attributed to what you know.

[iblis73]

Actually come to think of it I think the Singers and Matt Thornton and perhaps even Tony Blauer have addressed this-doing sets of short bursts of about 20-30 seconds each. When I did WT eons ago we had this one guy, big and fat looking. He didnt have long term cardio but in a streetfight, say a 30 second shot, he was a terror-he hit really fast and REALLY hard!

This is sooo perishable too-you stop training for a short period and you lose it fairly quickly.

Hey Van, I know a lot of Nicos students are kinda big and built-how is the overall fitness of the folks your training with/against??

[Stevo]

To say that 'conditioning is the real deciding factor in a fight' is a generalisation. I agree on the importance of conditioning, but as has often been said on this forum, conditioning is activity-specific. You need to have enough conditioning to do the job. 'The job' in a street confrontation is not to slug it out for hours with gloves on.

Vankuen said that he thought he was fairly fit until he sparred intensely with gloves on. Lots of sparring with gloves on would increase your stamina for sparring with gloves on. Of course, lots of this stamina would transfer to fighting without gloves, but if you use all the heart and skill that you have in a street confrontation (without gloves), along with a modicum of conditioning, you shouldn’t need anywhere near as much stamina as if you were sparring two-minute rounds for an hour and a half!

Wearing gloves muffles power and inhibits the effectiveness of grabs, chops, bare-knuckle punches, pulls, throws and two or three successive and powerful punches on the same point (no, I don't mean chain punching).

Someone also said that they knew someone who was fearsome over a 30-second period and then ran out of steam. A lot of damage could be done in 30 seconds by someone directing their energy effectively.

A well-conditioned person with little skill might direct their energy ineffectively and therefore be beaten by an unconditioned person with skill. I include the ability to hit hard and accurately as a skill. I agree that heart is important, but the same goes for conditioning - someone with heart and little skill could misdirect their energy (i.e. flail about) and therefore be ineffective in a fight against a person with skill and less heart. But with two skilled people, the one with less skill can win if he has more heart than the other. Spatial and strategic intelligence are also skills which can beat heart or conditioning. In a fight between two people of equal skill, the person with the greatest heart or conditioning should win.

Anyway, I agree with what Victor said about the importance of heart (or will, courage), conditioning and skill, but I'm not sure that skill is always the least important of the three.

Of course the usual caveat applies: all the above is only my personal opinion at this point in time.

[t_niehoff]

canglong wrote:

The "asking hand" isn't questioning are you in shape its asking what do you know. Knowledge is king.

**This, in a nutshell, is the theoretician's credo -- "knowledge is king". For theoreticians it always boils down to that. And we can understand how that is related to "history" -- the "knowledge" is passed down in the "magic book" (which contains the "secrets") via a special lineage (the magic book holder). This is why it is so important to how close one gets to the holder of the magic book. It contains things like the "key to unlocking the power of SLT" or "the WCK formula" or whatever. It's always about knowledge.

**Developing greater fighting (WCK) skills -- as the evidence demonstrates (folks that have proven to have good skills shows) -- depends less on what style or method one uses and more on the type and level of training one does. This, of course, does involve "knowledge" too, but of the "self-knowledge" variety -- stuff no one can give you or transmit to you, which comes from actually trying to put our tools to work (realistically) and make them work for us.

[t_niehoff]

Stevo,

Conditioning is a *part* of skill -- and a large part. People like to separate these things but one really can't. Conditioning is more than just being in good physical shape (though that is part of it); it is the level one's body can function at in a fighting environment. If one can't function well in a fighting environment, they won't be able to apply anything they *know*.

It doesn't take skill (conditioning) to sucker punch someone or to pull off a surprise eye poke. But the problem is that if those things fail, if the fight is on -- then what? Skilled fighters prepare for the worst and hope for the best.

[reneritchie]

These threads often seem to get lost in semantics.

What you know is what you can apply in the moment.

You can see something and forget how to do it; remember how to do something in training and not think to use it when the time comes; use something when the time comes and fail in that usage; or you can use it when you need to successfully.

And just because you used it once, doesn't mean it will work next time. So, repeated usability is then the requirement.

And to add a story, one of my sisuk was a product of the early PRC Sport Institutes. He later went to HK, and when he had to fight, found that while he typicallly jumped rope for rounds, his opponents were chain smokers. After a minute, they would gas, and he could just crash them with punches. Won a lot fo fights that way.

But, hopefully people aren't fighting every day, so conditioning is a way to be more healthy, and be able to train in what you enjoy longer and with less risk of injury.

[SAAMAG]

You've got the right idea RR, but this thread is not about what you "know" as far as techniques, so there should be no semantics involved. This is cut and dry. You're either in shape (to fight) or you're not...

You can bet on the fight only lasting a few seconds...

or you can train for worst and hope for the best.

The only thing one "knows" of wing chun or any style of fighting right now is what you can apply while in it's element...and the only way you're going to see that is by being in it's element.
You will be suprized at how little you know about yourself. Can you guess exactly how long it will take for you to gas out while performing your techniques full out? Where you can't perform the techniques with any effectiveness? 30 seconds? 1 minute? 2?
Probably not even that long for most of the martial artists out there.

This is more of a question meant for you to answer on your own in all honesty...because it is you who will be fighting alone.

[SAAMAG]

Originally posted by iblis73
Actually come to think of it I think the Singers and Matt Thornton and perhaps even Tony Blauer have addressed this-doing sets of short bursts of about 20-30 seconds each. When I did WT eons ago we had this one guy, big and fat looking. He didnt have long term cardio but in a streetfight, say a 30 second shot, he was a terror-he hit really fast and REALLY hard!

This is sooo perishable too-you stop training for a short period and you lose it fairly quickly.

Hey Van, I know a lot of Nicos students are kinda big and built-how is the overall fitness of the folks your training with/against??

I'm 5'7", about 160 lbs, in relatively good "shape" as far as musclature goes...there are about 4 guys there that I have met that are in the 200+ weight range, all of them around the 5 10" mark or taller. None of them what you would call muscular big...more like football player big. Just your average big athletic guys. Nico and another si hing frank are about my size and muscularture give or take a little in height and weight, but are in the best shape and are the most skilled there obviously. All of us at some point are dropping to the floor and breathing because we went until we could go no more. It just takes longer then others. I think I got tired the quickest...because of my lack of hard training the last few years. These guys have been doing the circuit at the end of every class which put them a little higher in cardio levels then me...if I remember right...and was going to put an average time as to when a majority of them were tired to the point where you could hit them at will....I would say right around 4 or 5 minutes or so.

[Tydive]

Interesting posts, sounds like most people here understand the need to be "in shape".

Another thing to consider is the difference between spar and fight and how it relates to conditioning. The rule of thumb I used to use in training was that 1 hour of sparing was equal to 1 minute of a real fight. My experience has been that conditioning is critical, and that real fights (or even ring bouts) drain your energy at an amazing rate.

So if you want to win that 20 second fight be able to spar full out for 20 minutes. :D

[anerlich]

Actually come to think of it I think the Singers and Matt Thornton and perhaps even Tony Blauer have addressed this-doing sets of short bursts of about 20-30 seconds each.

The Singer Bros demonstrate this on their "Hardcore Training" DVD. It's called the Tabata protocol, simplistically doing a 20 sec burst of an exercise (sprawl, burpee, squats, etc etc including more activity specific stuff like bagwork) as fast as possible, rest 10 secs, repeat, trying to do more reps each set than the previous. H-A-R-D. Lots of info on Google if anyone wants more.

I read somewhere, that according to the Center for Disease Control, that you are about 100,000 times more likely to die from lifestyle-related heart disease than from a criminal assault.

So if you spend all your time on "Reality Based Self Defense" or whatever it is you do theoretically and technically, and none on staying in condition, your priorities need some serious readdressing.


If you KNOW this before hand in the final analysis this too can be attributed to what you know.

If you word twist enough, yes, but "what you know" still ain't going to help you beat someone if you have no gas in the tank when that asking hand becomes the insisting hand and says "DEAL WITH THIS, SUCKER!" And knowing you're going to gas out at some stage is common sense, not knowledge to most of us, though YMMV.

[anerlich]

The point about conditioning being activity specific is well taken.

Pugilism, standing grappling and groundfighting all have different conditioning requirements, and to a significant degree these are not transferable one to another, though general cardio fitness still helps.

[Paniero]

Originally posted by anerlich

Pugilism, standing grappling and groundfighting all have different conditioning requirements, and to a significant degree these are not transferable one to another, though general cardio fitness still helps.

I agree. I think that with boxing and grappling arts, conditioning is more important because an extended fight is the norm, not the exception. Although I don't know much about WC, I know firsthand about fighting; in my experience, adrenaline replaces endurance and skill and intelligence are of primary importance. Conditioning will not be an issue unless you let it become one since you'll both be breathing heavy after a few moments in an unexpected encounter.

Outside of a tournament or ring, you will rarely see a fight between two people of high skill. Most times you may have one person that knows a little of something, and the opponent maybe a little more, but either way, once the clash begins, it still looks like a scuffle on a playground unless it is finished by the person of a higher skill quickly.

I wish I trained with you, Van. We don't do any cardio in class, so I have to do it on my own.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Paniero
We don't do any cardio in class, so I have to do it on my own. Why waste time doing cardio in class?? You can do cardio on your own. In class you have others to train with, to work on skill development. you need two people to chi sao or spar with, you can run or skip rope or whatever on your own. Get up an hour earlier and hit the road. :)

[iblis73]

Nico and another si hing frank are about my size and muscularture give or take a little in height and weight, but are in the best shape and are the most skilled there obviously.

Hey, is that little Frank? LOL, if so hes probably past me up-me and a couple of the guys (shane valero,rob f,dr wayne) were the ones who trained Frank and a lot of the other of Parkers students.

Van is right on imo on the conditioning angle. I also would say that one who maintains that sort of readiness also has a better life-my dad is 71 and often walks 5 miles a day and does 4-500 push ups a day. His health is superb, esp compared to others younger than him.

Maybe I'll drop by one of these weeks-when do the guys train there? I'm assuming they are still over on broadway.

[SAAMAG]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Paniero
We don't do any cardio in class, so I have to do it on my own.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why waste time doing cardio in class?? You can do cardio on your own. In class you have others to train with, to work on skill development. you need two people to chi sao or spar with, you can run or skip rope or whatever on your own. Get up an hour earlier and hit the road.


Ahhhh Matrix, the best prep exercise is the exercise itself. By that statement if one wants to attain a higher level of conditioning fighting with wing chun against a resisting opponent, then one needs to spar against resisting opponents consistantly to get the best results.

Jumping rope and running are great for an overall conditioning, but will not yield the same results as above. You body adapts based on familiarity and muscle memory/repition of a said movement. If you jump rope all the time, you'll get better at jumping rope, but not necessarily hitting someone full out for 10 minutes.

**Paniero - perhaps there are other people there who are of the same mindset as some of us on here and would be willing to go some rounds with you? All you have to do is ask around. Look for the guy there that's in good shape (if there is one) and see if he will go some rounds with you, with light gloves on of course and some pulling of the power punches. The guy on here you might want to talk to is Ultimate, he is relatively close to you and would be more then willing to help you out...just tell him I sent ya!

[SAAMAG]

Originally posted by iblis73
Nico and another si hing frank are about my size and muscularture give or take a little in height and weight, but are in the best shape and are the most skilled there obviously.

Hey, is that little Frank? LOL, if so hes probably past me up-me and a couple of the guys (shane valero,rob f,dr wayne) were the ones who trained Frank and a lot of the other of Parkers students.

Van is right on imo on the conditioning angle. I also would say that one who maintains that sort of readiness also has a better life-my dad is 71 and often walks 5 miles a day and does 4-500 push ups a day. His health is superb, esp compared to others younger than him.

Maybe I'll drop by one of these weeks-when do the guys train there? I'm assuming they are still over on broadway.

Same place Iblis, tues/thurs 7-9pm, sat 12-2 pm.

[t_niehoff]

Vankuen wrote:

Ahhhh Matrix, the best prep exercise is the exercise itself.

**Exactly -- it's activity specific as Andrew pointed out. If someone tells me they aren't getting "cardio in class", I'd tell them they are wasting their time.

By that statement if one wants to attain a higher level of conditioning fighting with wing chun against a resisting opponent, then one needs to spar against resisting opponents consistantly to get the best results.

**This is why conditioning is a part, one aspect, of skill -- you can't get good without fighting, you need to be in good condition to fight, the best way to get into good fighting condition is by fighting, etc. If you don't fight, then you aren't in good condition regardless of your fitness level.

Jumping rope and running are great for an overall conditioning, but will not yield the same results as above. You body adapts based on familiarity and muscle memory/repition of a said movement. If you jump rope all the time, you'll get better at jumping rope, but not necessarily hitting someone full out for 10 minutes.

**As individuals, we have individual needs. Some people need more or supplemental activity in certain specific areas; others don't. And those needs change with age, level, etc. The only way to know what those are for you is by evaluating your results -- if you find that you keep getting winded while fighting, then do more supplemental cardio.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Vankuen
Ahhhh Matrix, the best prep exercise is the exercise itself. By that statement if one wants to attain a higher level of conditioning fighting with wing chun against a resisting opponent, then one needs to spar against resisting opponents consistantly to get the best results. Of course, training is specific. My point is that if you don't have someone to train with you can do cardio solo. I don't give a crap if you run, skip, hit the speed bag or heavy bag. Also, the body adapts over time so it's good to mix things up. Just don't cry that you don't have someone else to train with.

[sihing]

Been lacking the internet connection the last week and half, but it was a good break away.....

IMO,
1)SKILL

2)WILL

3)TACTICS OR TECHNIQUE

4)CONDITIONING

is the order I would place on what determines the course of a fight/person defending themselves. Of course we need to be able to lift our arms and legs and use them in some form of efficient and effective movement, but this is taught at the learning stage and developed over time. I myself do no cardio and I realize that my ability to last over a period of time is limited compared to a person that is conditioned cardiovascularly, but I do have efficient movement and effective movement which requires less effort to perform, and the skill level in performing these movements is also high which means the "engine is well oiled" and less resistance is present.

When in completions where rules are enforced, then conditioning is more of a factor due to the fact that limitations in what can be done and how it can be done is there, therefore more work will be required to get the job done.

Also, intensity of the situation where physical self defense is required also is a factor. As I've said many times before on this forum protecting one's family from harm is much more of a motivating factor than a "thug" on the street giving me a hassle for some change. Personally I'm more of a person that rises to the occasion and reacts according to the situation at hand.

So, IMO FWIW, conditioning is important but being physically fit is not the determining factor, but being conditioned in your art, knowing it well, understanding every aspect of it, and utilizing surprise as one of your tactics will help far more than how many miles you can run or how many punches you can throw in 5 minutes..


James

[kj]

Luck it is! And as Thomas Jefferson and crimsonking both point out, the more effort invested the more luck improves.

Great to see you back and posting again, Crimson!

Regards,
- kj

[t_niehoff]

There is certainly an element of luck in any fighting situation but it is not the "predominant" element -- if it were, higher skilled fighters would not so reliably and predictably defeat lesser-skilled fighters (though there is an *occassional* upset).

Instead of theorizing on how important we believe conditioining is, why not see for yourself? It's fairly simple to determine. Or, if you are resistant to the idea of actually mixing it up, just look at any really skilled fighter and see how important conditioning is to them. You know, look to evidence instead of theory.

[reneritchie]

There's an old quote, echoed by many professional fighters:

"The harder I train, the luckier I get"


[edited for those an@l types who don't comprehend 'typos']

[t_niehoff]

crimsonking wrote:

Venue is important. You've said yourself that conditioning is highly specific - for example grappling making different demands to striking - it's also true that conditioning 'for the street' is different to conditioning for the ring\mat\cage. If you're training for competition, you're correct - luck isn't the issue, and conditioning becomes very important indeed. A competition fighter should adjust their training to the rules and format of the competition they are competing in.

IMO for the street - you need to be quick on your feet, and be able to destroy your opponent so you don't have a long drawn out fight. So, skill, power, and mindset become more important.

**In the ring you also need to be "quick on your feet, and able to destroy your opponent"; it's not the venue that determines whether or not it is a "long, drawn-out fight" but the caliber of your opposition. In the ring, for example, you're dealing with a trained, conditioned fighter whereas "in the street" you're typically dealing with an untrained, unconditioned guy. And that's why it can be over so quick. Put two unmatched (in terms of skill) folks in a ring and it will be over quick too.

Of course - conditioning is still important, but i'm with Ernie on this one - you should be fit for life. In the course of regular wing chun training you should get a basic level of conditioning anyway - after all, it is a physical activity

**I agree that being fit is important for our overall health and happiness. Being conditioned -- that is having our body prepared for our activity -- is something else.

The current feeling on this forum seems to be that there is a division between two camps. It's really not that simple.

**I agree with you.

I do not have a sports orientation, free sparring is not part of my wing chun training, and i don't train to fight on a mat or in a ring, or wearing gloves, a gi or spandex. This does NOT mean shying away from hard, painful, physical training.

**It's not a question of how "hard, painful or physical" the training is; it's the nature of the training that matters. One can do dryland swimming until they bleed but they still won't become good swimmers. Our ancestors in WCK didn't have the protective equipment that we do today so they couldn't "spar" or "fight" as part of their training (without killing one another). Yet, they still recongnized that to get good one had to fight. Yip told his students to "go out and test it for yourself." The ones that developed skill, like Wong Sheung Leung and some others, did just that. YKS set up regular fights for Sum Nung as part of his training. They did the best they could given their situation. Nor did our ancestors have the level of fighters that we do today -- they are more conditioned (because they can be), with greater attributes, with really good training, with differing skills than they faced, etc. The times have changed, and we can keep up or not.

"Resistant to the idea of mixing it up" is really not the issue. In relation to wing chun - 'Traditional' should mean 'blood on the floor', not titles, sashes and funny uniforms.

**"Traditional" for me means "how it has been done in the past".

[t_niehoff]

crimsonking wrote:

Competition venues do favour long-drawn out fights - things like padding, rounds, referees, corner men, gloves and rules make real destruction less likely.

**What makes "real destruction" less likely is that the competitors are in better condition so they are more difficult to hurt, are better skilled so they are better able to avoid being hurt, and in these situations "taps" or "throwing in the towel" or referree intervention is permitted (able to stop before someone gets hurt). Lots of "sport fighters" have had "streetfights, and they end very quickly -- not because of the lack of padding, lack of rounds, referrees, cornermen, gloves, rules, etc. but because they outclassed the opposition in skill. For example, Tyson knocking out the two guys in the parking lot -- these guys weren't good fighters, they couldn't take a punch, avoid a punch, etc.

Exactly, that's what i'm saying - we need to define "our activity". Mine is certainly not yours. Therefore your training - and prioritisation of conditioning for competition, is not mine. No problem.

**Yes, we do need to define our "activity" and condition ourself for that activity. As WCK is a fighting method, it would seem to me that conditioning for fighting with that method is essential.

In a sports fight - perhaps conditioning is "the deciding factor". In a street fight, perhaps not. Again - conditioning is specific.

**This is one problem with doing anything for "streetfighting" -- it is all theoretical, because unless we are going out and fighting in the street, how do we *know* we are getting good results from our training or that these things will work? It's all guesswork, inference, theory. Another problem with "streetfighting" is there is no way to guage the level of the opposition in these "tests", so what works "out on the street" for us in some encounter may have worked only because our opponent was really bad, not because our technique or attributes were good.

Regarding labels - we almost agree! There has been a tendency for people in the 'sports\sparring' camp to label those not in it as somehow unprepared to go through that sort of training. It's a testostorone-fuelled "toughman" mentality that's not very productive - this is not a ****ing contest.

**We can all fight. We can fight before ever taking up WCK. One important issue is whether or not our training, whatever it is, is significantly increasing our ability to fight. And we need to know that -- because if it isn't, we can adjust our training (assuming this is our goal). How can we know? There is only one way: by fighting, and by fighting with skilled opposition. Anything else is purely theoretical (inferring from chi sao, for example). Believing that your biu jee will work in a fight is theory -- anything you haven't done is theory. My POV is to assume all theory is wrong until I see it work in genuine application for myself; this way when the sh1t goes down, I know what I can and cannot do, I know my level of preparation. It's not theory to me.

You're correct about the true meaning of traditional, the term has been abused here as part of this division into camps. Then there's Traditional (TM) lol.

**IMO there is an inverse relationship between the stressing of tradition and effectiveness. That's because if someone can make it work, they don't need to place great emphasis on how traditional it is. Folks stress "traditional" as a way of saying "if it's traditional, it must be good." Theory.

I've never heard of fights in the street going for very long. But don't ask me, look to the evidence - go hang outside some bars or interview people in casualty on a saturday night. I'm aware that street fights are not equivalent to ring fights in terms of opposition, i'll let that slide for the moment.

**The last "streetfight" I was in ended with one punch; I've never had a training (fighting) situation end in one punch.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by crimsonking
I do not have a sports orientation, free sparring is not part of my wing chun training, and i don't train to fight on a mat or in a ring, or wearing gloves, a gi or spandex. This does NOT mean shying away from hard, painful, physical training. "Resistant to the idea of mixing it up" is really not the issue. If you don't do any sparring, then how are you going about "mixing it up" in your training?

[Airdrawndagger]

Everyone has touched on good points but I think 7-10 times conditioning IS the deciding factor.
If you take two people with equal skill, luck, and determination and pit them against each other, the one who is in better shape will win.
Even if you pit one person with better skill against someone who is in better shape than the one who is in better shape is favored to win. Why? When was the last time you got into a "real" fight? You were probably tired as H*ll in a very short period of time (i know i was!). Being tired just limits your skill and ability and even though your a master if you run out of gas and can not lift your limbs, then all the skill in the world wont save you, but conditioning will. So i guess with me anyway I see fighting as an undetermined event, with undetermined factors that will only be realized at the moment of physical contact. So if I were a wise man I would at least like to rule out (to the best of my ability) my own conditioning as being a deciding factor of the fight. You have enough things to worry about like getting hurt or killed, let alone whether or not I can keep up with the other guy!:eek:

[Sihing73]

Hello,

While I certainly would agree that conditioning is important and desirible, I do not agree that conditioning is the overall deciding factor in a "street fight". I think that a real street fight is often one in which the first blow comes as a surprise and may involve a weapon. I think that the proper mindset is more important that overall conditioning. IMHO, if you get into a fight on the street and it takes so long that your physical condition comes into play as the deciding factor then both you and your opponent need to go back to school. In my experience most street fights are over very quickly and often involve brutal illegal techniques which would offset conditioning anyhow. Tell me, if you are struck in the throat or eyes, or with a club or knife, is your conditioning going to be what saves you?? Again, conditioning is important but not as important as the proper mindset and the willingness to employ your techniques in the most brutal fashion possible. There are many cases where a well conditioned person is brutally attacked by a less conditioned person and loses.

A street fighter will train to employ the most effective and devasting method available to him/her. They will use their time to perfect this attack. Often the initial attack will never be seen but is will be felt. Now you can argue about the added benefit that good conditioning will provide, and no arguement there, but I again doubt that a real street fight will last very long, unless both parties are extremely inept, in which case it may be fun to watch.
:D

One of the nice things about Wing Chun is that it provides a very effective method of combat for the average person or even the less than average person. Our system does not rely on great physical conditoning nor perfect human body structure to be effective. Why is it that there are old people who can utilize and apply arts like Wing Chun in real life encounters. Surely it is not their superior physical conditioning. If I needed to be in great shape to make Wing Chun work then I would walk away and buy a gun or use a weapon.

Now there is a benefit to being in good physical condition and if one has the time to devote to training this aspect properly then one should certainly do so. However, with limited time available it might be better to practice the most effective and brutal techniques and train the mind to deliver them. You should also mentally prepare yourself to fight if you get hit first and or injured.

If you believe that your superior physical conditioning is really the deciding factor in a street fight, not a ring fight, then, IMHO you are deceiving yourself and will be very surprised if you ever find yourself on the receiving end of an attack. It may contribute to your survivial but the fight really should not last that long.

Peace,

Dave

[SAAMAG]

Hey Dave,

Remember that in the very first post, I asked

" Even though wing chun capitalizes on using the other persons energy, even though wing chun fights are supposed to last no more then 3 seconds....what if the other person's skills are higher than the average person and the fight lasts longer then you had hoped? What then? "

...that being said...the question was what if...and should that be the case, conditioning comes into play. IDEALLY, you're correct, and fights in "real" life should not last that long. But if they do...I think you will come to see things differently. Also consider that most people in "real" fights, get winded within 30 seconds, if you haven't finished your guy off within the first flurry...you're going to be done if you didn't actually train to fight and have to throw more then 10 punches.

Now it's not hard to train for conditioning as well...as any well made martial arts fighter will do...you could do it with 30 minutes a day of strong hard training....not too much to ask I would think.

Anyway...this is something that I just wanted people to think about before having to come to the realization after they got their butts kicked because that thought all their fights would be with people who were easily disposed of.

But hey...to each their own.

BTW....how many "old" people have you seen in a real fight?

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Vankuen
BTW....how many "old" people have you seen in a real fight? What do you consider to be "old"?
BTW, are these "old" people the same ones as those who are easily disposed of? :D

[Sihing73]

Hello Vankuen,

I would think you would need to be in pretty bad condition to be unable to fight after only 30 seconds. I also think that it is highly unlikely to run into highly skilled highly conditioned martial artists on the street who are looking for trouble. Most people of that level seem to be more apt to avoid then fight. Kind of like th old time gunfighters or Samuria. While duels did take place, since the most likely outcome was mutual injury or killing I think it was more often avoided then not, but hey that is just my thought on the matter.

Just to give you a frame of reference on where I draw my POV: I used to be a Police Officer. I worked as a Philadelphia House Police Officer and then as a PA State Police Trooper. In addition I have taught defensive tactics at one of the County Prisons.

As to how many old people I have seen in fights: The sad fact is that I have seen several old people injured as a result of being attacked and not having a realistic approach to combat. Same to be said for some women who did not have the proper mindset to actually apply what was needed to ward off an attacker.

I am all for conditioning if you have the time for it. I am not for the fantasy BS that many people adhere to when it comes to fighting. You may be great in the ring but the street is a different animal. I know of many people who are much much better than me in Wing Chun or other arts, but who I would not want to watch my back in a real life encounter. I remember one guy who was supposed to be this great FMA's guy and good with a knife. When we worked out he complained that I did not fight fair. Maybe because he kept getting "cut". (Using rubber knives of course). Now his "technique" was much better than mine and on a technical level he could "kill" me. On a real life level, he would die in less than a few seconds or at the least be seriously maimed. He could outlast me if I played his game but not if I played mine.

One of the first things I drill into my students is that I CHEAT!!! ;)
I will make every attempt not to fight your fight and to take you out very quickly and brutally. In all of the "street fights" I have been in I don't think any lasted longer than 10-20 seconds, if that, once a bridge had been established. In several of these encounters, I had to continue fighting after being injured and believe me if I tried to outlast the opponent I would not be here today. There are many people better than me and in better condition, but there are not too many who are as sneaky :p

Peace,

Dave

[Airdrawndagger]

Well I guess we all have different POV on this subject and we could throw around the ole "what if" sinario about a trillion times.
Sihing73, I respect the fact that you are/were a cop and have a lot of experience with this type of situation but all i can do is speak from my personal experience and I know that conditioning was definetly a factor. I suppose there are many instances where one guy looks at another guys girl at a bar and they exchange words, then shove one another and swing a few times on each other before its broken up. Probably one of the more common cases with a million variations, but...
WHAT IF:D Your attacked from behind and knocked to the ground, or grabbed, or surrounded, or forced to RUN because you are being chased! Then it becomes a different game in which strength and conditioning will be a HUGE factor.
BUT of course, if you are one with your wing chun skills then you may dispatch of the foes with little or no effort and with out breaking a sweat while reading a newspaper...but im not there yet, and I know that if I sharpen my body as well as my mind then I will be that much more prepared for the unexpected.
I could always be shot... then whats the use of any wing chun skills at all? Ima go out and buy a big gun:p

[sihing]

The argument that even a person with good skill will still lose to a person with much less skill but good conditioning is false IMO. Why? How does one gain skill in the first place? By practicing, and since in the beginning WC is a physical exercise, physical conditioning will improve in a whole bunch of areas as by product of practice. In our kwoon we have 1 conditioning class a night, which lasts 1 hour and is super intense, but this in not a prerequisite of success in the system. If one choose not to participate in the conditioning classes and just come to the 2 skill classes every night they will improve their individual conditioning (cardiovascular level, flexibility level, strength and power levels), just that it is not the focus of the class. Now, once the "skill" and therefore conditioning is there, then all you have to do is maintain it, which is easier than getting it. I know this because I live it. Yes my overall abilities would greatly improve if I decided to participate in the conditioning classes, but I started to ask myself how fast is fast enough, how hard is hard enough (regarding punching/kicking power), how flexible does one have to be (can one do the splits cold?). I realized for myself based on my own truthful judgments of my own abilities that enough was enough and that the skills and tools were there, and therefore other things could be concentrated on, like working on tactics and strategies, etc...

Another problem with the preposition that a skilled fighter will always lose to a conditioned fighter, is the fact that WC is a "skilled based" MA, which to me means that skill attributes constitute the majority of it's repertoire, not physically based attributes like speed or strength or stamina, which all will leave you faster once training stops than skill based attributes like timing, sensitivity, distance control, eye perception, and every other tactic/technique/concept that WC uses that most other MA neglect. Skill in WC is different than skill in most other MA just because this is the whole idea behind the WC art, superior Skills and Concepts. Animals use physical abilities to overcome one another or other predators, human beings use their wits, intelligence and superior brain power to overcome their enemies or other predators trying to destroy them.

Don't get me wrong, as I do agree that if the skills are the same then the one with superior speed or strength will have an advantage, but how often will you meet someone in a reality situation that has WC or something similar to WC type skills? Nil.


James

[Sihing73]

Originally posted by Airdrawndagger
WHAT IF:D Your attacked from behind and knocked to the ground, or grabbed, or surrounded, or forced to RUN because you are being chased! Then it becomes a different game in which strength and conditioning will be a HUGE factor.
:p

Hello Airdrawndagger,

In this scenerio I would agree, if you can run away then you stand a better chance if you are in running condition. Avoidance is always better than confrontation, imho. But don't get me started on the three ways to deal with any attack, 1) Avoid 2) Evade 3) Intercept as not everyone will agree with this nor even on the definitions of each aspect. :rolleyes:

Consider this, how do you conditon yourself to take a hit in the head with a 40 bottle?? Is the ability to continue and respond to this type of attack more physical or more mental? One can not condition oneself to withstand the impact of a bullet yet there are numerous examples where someone is shot multiple times and lives and someone else gets shot once and dies. Check out some of the stories of people being shot in what should have been lethal spots yet living. There are plenty of examples if you dig for them. Gaudalcanal (forgive my spelling) is one example. What is it that enabled these people to survive? Physical or mental or both?

My only problem with people relying too heavily on conditioning being the deciding factor is akin to the old adage that if you are attacked you just kick the guy in the groin and it will stop them. Not always true and now what do you do if it does not work?? IMHO, the state and "condition" of your mind is far more important than your physical condition in many cases.

Don't fight their fight and don't be afraid to fight dirty. If someone attacks you or a loved one they have given up any consideration about fair play, and I want the fight over as quick as I can. I am not going to stick around and see if I can outfight or outlast you. I am going to "cheat" and do what I can to destroy you. Of course if in the process I can safely run away I will do so but hopefully my attacker will not be in much of a position nor inclined to pursue me. Of course if they have a gun I'm pretty much screwed. :( Again just my opinion.

Differing POV are fine and discussions like this on the internet are kind of pointless as everyone already has their own preconceived ideas. It is unlikely that anyone will change anyone elses mind. No matter what one does or how one trains remember that Wing Chun does provide the tools and mindset to be quite effective. It is the person practicing the art that either takes advantage of the tools or does not. Like I tell my students, we all have the same 26 characters of the alphabet to use. How come some people can write great novels or poetry and others can't? It all depends on what you do with what you are given. Another interesting thing to consider is that many of the most successful writers often break all the rules of grammer. Perhaps showing us that rules are only guidelines and allowing us to think outside of the box.

Peace,

Dave

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Another problem with the preposition that a skilled fighter will always lose to a conditioned fighter, is the fact that WC is a 'skilled based' MA, which to me means that skill attributes constitute the majority of it's repertoire, not physically based attributes like speed or strength or stamina..." (sihing)

.................................................. .............................

James:

I hate to break this news to you - but most martial arts have skill attributes constituting the majority of it's repertoire.

.................................................. ...................................


"...which all will leave you faster once training stops than skill based attributes like timing, sensitivity, distance control, eye perception, and every other tactic/technique/concept that WC uses that most other MA neglect. Skill in WC is different than skill in most other MA just because this is the whole idea behind the WC art, superior Skills and Concepts." (sihing)

.................................................. .................................


Again...Wing Chun has no monopoly on timing, sensitivity, distance control and eye perception.

All good martial arts try to cultivate these skills.

[sihing]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
"Another problem with the preposition that a skilled fighter will always lose to a conditioned fighter, is the fact that WC is a 'skilled based' MA, which to me means that skill attributes constitute the majority of it's repertoire, not physically based attributes like speed or strength or stamina..." (sihing)

.................................................. .............................

James:

I hate to break this news to you - but most martial arts have skill attributes constituting the majority of it's repertoire.

.................................................. ...................................


"...which all will leave you faster once training stops than skill based attributes like timing, sensitivity, distance control, eye perception, and every other tactic/technique/concept that WC uses that most other MA neglect. Skill in WC is different than skill in most other MA just because this is the whole idea behind the WC art, superior Skills and Concepts." (sihing)

.................................................. .................................


Again...Wing Chun has no monopoly on timing, sensitivity, distance control and eye perception.

All good martial arts try to cultivate these skills.

All good Martial Artists don't try to cultivate these things because they don't even realize they exist. Over the last 16yrs or so of training/teaching experience I can't tell you all how many times I've revealed simple WC concepts and strategies to people with previous MA/fighting experience and them saying things like "Wow, I've never thought about it like that" or "That make allot of sense". Its not about WC having a monopoly on these concepts, it’s about the other MA not even recognizing them. For example, Karate skills are different than Wing Chun skills. We just had a student rejoin the school, after comparing WC with Shotokan Karate. He first took 4 months of Shotokan, then 4 months of WC with us, then another 4 months of shotokan again to which he just completed and came back to us and joined for 1 yr. While he was back at the shotokan for his last 4 month venture, he entered a tournament and won his class in the sparring event, I believe it was orange belt level. At that time he only had equal time in both Shotokan and Wing Chun. He said his WC helped allot in the sparring as the basic techniques enhanced his ability to defend and score a point on his opponents. Another student who moved out of the city for work, came back to visit for the holidays and related a story. His roommate is a 2nd degree Black Belt in Karate and offered the student the opportunity to come down to his school to train if he wanted to. The student took him up on his offer, just to get some training in, and after two classes the roommate decided to enter the student into Karate tournament in Vancouver, BC. The student won the Brown Belt sparring division, and entered the Black Belt Sparring division and won Gold there too, with only 2 Karate classes under his belt and 2 years of intense WC training under his belt also. The point is, skill sets in various arts is different, and the fact of the matter is some arts emphasize strength/speed more than skill in the actual technique of there particular art. Besides all that WC movement and concepts are at a skill/effectiveness level many levels above most MA out there today, IMO.

The majority of my posts concentrate on one thing, the effectiveness of the art practiced, not on the individual attributes of the individual, because anyone can get into shape, condition themselves for a competition or personal reasons, not everyone can move effectively or defend themselves effectively if not exposed to it. All of us know how to do push ups, not all of know how to simultaneously defend ourselves and attack.

James

[t_niehoff]

sihing wrote:

The majority of my posts concentrate on one thing, the effectiveness of the art practiced, not on the individual attributes of the individual,

**Therein lies the problem -- the "art" is not effective in and of itself or by itself (WCK doesn't deal with a punch, you do), it is the person that is effective or not. It is the person that uses WCK. Conditioning makes the person better able to use their WCK (fight). No matter how well-designed a car may be, it doesn't run by itself.

because anyone can get into shape, condition themselves for a competition or personal reasons, not everyone can move effectively or defend themselves effectively if not exposed to it.

**It works both ways -- anyone can learn to defend themselves too. Conditioning is more than fitness or "shape". Conditioning is a part of skill.

All of us know how to do push ups, not all of know how to simultaneously defend ourselves and attack.

**It's not just a matter of *knowing* how to defend ourselves, it is being able to defend ourselves that matters. To physically perform. Our performance level depends on our conditioning level; they go hand-in-hand. If you have any doubt, you can see for yourself by fighting with folks of different skill levels.

----------------

sihing73 wrote:

My only problem with people relying too heavily on conditioning being the deciding factor is akin to the old adage that if you are attacked you just kick the guy in the groin and it will stop them. Not always true and now what do you do if it does not work?? IMHO, the state and "condition" of your mind is far more important than your physical condition in many cases.

**See above. Conditioning is your body's ability to perform. How can that not be significant? It doesn't matter if your mind says do it but your body can't.

Don't fight their fight and don't be afraid to fight dirty. If someone attacks you or a loved one they have given up any consideration about fair play, and I want the fight over as quick as I can. I am not going to stick around and see if I can outfight or outlast you. I am going to "cheat" and do what I can to destroy you.

**Ane they may be doing the same thing. It may be over quickly -- what folks don't realize is that the better condition we are in, the better our chances to end things quickly. And if it does go on, we can still stay the course. The only people who argue about how conditioining isn't critical are those people who never fight; you never hear fighters saying that. Of course, we can ignore the opinion of those with the experience and just realy on our theory. . . .

Of course if in the process I can safely run away I will do so but hopefully my attacker will not be in much of a position nor inclined to pursue me. Of course if they have a gun I'm pretty much screwed. Again just my opinion.

**Great theory.

Differing POV are fine and discussions like this on the internet are kind of pointless as everyone already has their own preconceived ideas. It is unlikely that anyone will change anyone elses mind.

**I agree with you completely. That's why folks need to test their theories -- because all theories are equal, there is no way to prove one is right or another wrong. But you can see whether or not you can do it.

No matter what one does or how one trains remember that Wing Chun does provide the tools and mindset to be quite effective.

**Theory.

It is the person practicing the art that either takes advantage of the tools or does not. Like I tell my students, we all have the same 26 characters of the alphabet to use. How come some people can write great novels or poetry and others can't? It all depends on what you do with what you are given.

**Hence the need for conditioning.

Another interesting thing to consider is that many of the most successful writers often break all the rules of grammer. Perhaps showing us that rules are only guidelines and allowing us to think outside of the box.

**The other thing is good writers get that way by writing, not by doing writing drills.

[Ernie]

Simple math

Conditioning + skill is > just skill

why would anyone want to be '' less than ? "

this enitre argument is just silly , just that old martial art fantasy of the little old guy beating up the steriod giant ,

all the bs i saw my sifu do it tons of time crap , what in chi sau ? in a little demo ?

just because a person is visually fit dose not mean they have coordination for a fighting type activity

but when you run into a athlete that has conditioning and body unity even with out [ magic wing chun training ] that person is connected and heavy , he will have sensitivity , timing . intent and commitment .

i would much rather fight any non conditioned chi sau master in a bar then any football , basket ball player

training you attributes is all about amping up your skills .problem is any ''SIFU"" that has never fought or trained fighters to really use the system has no clue on how to bring this out , so they lie ! any one that has pressure tested and has any type of pressure testing in there training [ not fixed response tag drills ] will allways seek any edge they can .

why ?

because the have one simple goal to take out the person in front of them , there not robots trying to make techniques work

you don't get good at that by being a less than !!

keep feeding the lie people if it helps you sleep better ;)

it makes things much easier for me

in fact take your own advise never get in shape please :p

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Again I would ask how you condition yourself to take a hit in the head with a 40 bottle? Again I would ask which is more important with limited time, physical or mental toughness??

While conditioning is certainly advatageous and desirible I still think that if you are depending on your superior condtioning to carry the day in a real fight you are living in a fantasy world. Of course if you want to fight in the ring or play spar then you can afford to wear your opponent out. Try this for real and tell me the results, unless your opponent is pretty pathetic I doubt your fight will go long enough for your conditioning to play a mahjor factor.

Now, having said that do not misunderstand me to be totally agains the idea of conditioning. Perhaps one should consider what is meant by conditioning. You get better at doing something by doing it. If you want to shoot better baskets that is what you practice. While being in better cardio condition or stronger can be advantageous it, by itself, will not make you any better at sinking the ball through that little hoop.

If you fight on the street and have the wrong mental attitude then your physical condition will not carry the day. If you rely on your body condition to make your WC effective then as you get older you lose your superiority, so then what do you have to fall back on?? Or do you consider practicing proper structure and punching to fit your definitition of conditioning?

Being in excellent condition is not a negative, but having the mindset that your better physical condition is the key to your success in a real street fight is a detriment, imho. Like anything else there are many pieces to success and being a complete fighter. Physical condition is just one aspect and not necessarily the most important. If one has a limited amount of time to train then there are other aspects which you may find serve you better in a real fight. Now if you want to enter the UFC and the like then by all means get into the best physical condition you can. But for the average person who has a family, job and other responsibilities, do the most with the least effort.

I totally agree with Ernie when he says "just because a person is visually fit dose not mean they have coordination for a fighting type activity" So perhaps we need to rethink our definition of just what type of conditioning is important for a real fight.

BTW: I am always open to allowing people who visit with me or train with me to attack me in any manner they wish. I do not ask for them to through this punch or that kick but whatever they want. My response is definitely not reliant on my conditioning. Instead I have had people turn away because they thought it was too brutal and they did not have the stomach for it. So what part of their conditioning is lacking in this aspect? Can you do what you need to do to win on the street? If you are not prepared to do whatever it takes then whether or not you are in condition will have little effect in the final scheme of things.

Oh, I almost forgot, when I started to reply I was thinking of several of the "exceptions" to the rule. For example look at Samo Hung and the older George Foreman. Neither is what I would call the picture of perfect conditioning, yet I doubt many of us on this forum would be able to walk in and wipe the floor with them despite being younger and in better shape.

So in summary here are my thoughts:

1) Physical Conditioning is an assett if you have the time to devote to it.
2) Mental Attitude is more important than physical conditon and even sometimes skill.
3) Real fights don't last very long. If they do then someone has messed up.
4) Real fights come without warning. Sometimes you get hit or cut before you even realize you are in a fight.
5) Both sides of the "debate" are just as guilty as believing that they have the "one true answer" to surviving a confrontation. And neither side has a monopoly on the right answer.
6) There are exceptions to every rule. Sometimes being in better condition will make the difference and sometimes it won't.
7) Fighting in the ring, class or in demos is not the same as fighting on the street. If you do not have the right attituce it won't matter how "good" you are. You better be able to fight on after experiencing the shock of getting hit or injured.
8) No one really knows how they will react or do in a real situation until they actually face one. While you can do everything possible to prepare, in the end it comes down to what you are prepared for at that moment. Why is it that some people can get shot and fight on and others take a punch in the face and crumble?
9) Talk and posting on the internet are cheap. Believe me I am about as cheap as they come. :p

There are many people who teach B*S* but there are just as many who think they have the right answer based on false experience or expectations.

Question everything and don't be afraid to open your eyes to other methods or opinions.

Peace,

Dave

[Ernie]

Hello,

Again I would ask how you condition yourself to take a hit in the head with a 40 bottle? Again I would ask which is more important with limited time, physical or mental toughness??


Dave

conditioning is not just about the speed and power , it's more about skills the attributes that make thos skills work

reflex , timing ,toughness both mental and physical conditioning your pain levels ,

the ability to adapt , sesitivity under fire these are all part of conditioning ,

you can isolate and build these things

so what if your 50 years old and have great structure if all it takes is a knee to the thigh and you drop from the pain since you have not conditioned for it --for example


and to be honest that getting old analogy is a load of crap in my book ,

sure you slow up , but i have trained with very conditoned 50 and 60 year olds that had more juce then out of shape 20-30 year olds

there just not lazy , they have a work ethic and respect for there bodies

people like that are way more impressive then the pot bellied or frail excuse for a martial artist

if you body and mind are your weapon

then you should keep them as sharp as possible

what the worse thing that can happen , you improve the quality of your life hahhahahaa
:D :D

[sihing]

As usual this debate comes down to how we individually define the term "Conditioning", to me it more reflects the physical attributes of the person, not the skill. But some define the word including the skills. Some with great structure will not be able to defend the kick to the thigh if that is all they know. It's like when I teach beginners the SLT, I tell them what it's there for and then finish it off by stating that if the SLT is all you practice you will have no ability to defend yourself, regardless of how much you practice it, but combine it with other things and the SLT becomes the base foundation from where it all starts.

Terence,

IMO methods can make the difference to a great degree. The way Japan conducted business was much different before that guy went over there and taught them about quality control and other things, which eventually turned around the whole economic outlook of that country, making it an economic super giant for many years. Methods do matter, and IMO WC is a very effective method of self defense, but I do agree with you when you say that it is up to the individual to be able to perform it when necessary, but this applies to any MA or fighting/self defense method they try to learn. Why wouldn't someone not be able to perform and use WC but be able to use another MA? Movement is movement, some pick it up faster than others yes, but sooner or later everyone can learn it. I've taught kids with ADD Wing Chun, it was a long process, but after a long period of practice, there was a definite improvement in how they executed the movements and also in other areas of their life, as compared to when they first started learning.

Being in shape physically should be a part of everyone's life as Ernie says, just for the fact that it is good for your overall health, but I don't agree that it is absolutely necessary to be in tip top physical condition to be able to defend one's self. Yes I too would rather fight a fat chi-sao master, than a pro basketball, football athlete, if that is all the chi-sao master practiced, but a true "WC master" should know more than just chi-sao. Also what are the chances of meeting a world class athlete on the street in a confrontation anyways? If I were one the last thing I would want to do is risk damage to my body (my golden meal ticket per say) in a street confrontation.


Sihing73- Good post....

James

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sihing
All good Martial Artists don't try to cultivate these things because they don't even realize they exist. Its not about WC having a monopoly on these concepts, it’s about the other MA not even recognizing them.

I disagree. Alot of MA share concepts with other styles. the issue is that the style doesn't take the time to name it. Ask a judo guy what Peng is - he can't tell you. When he does certain throws though, it's there. Ask a thai boxer, judo guy or bjj guy what yielding and borrowing are - they can't tell you, but once they see it, can show you how they apply the same principle. Because the formal definition isn't there does not mean that the principle isn't there.


For example, Karate skills are different than Wing Chun skills. We just had a student rejoin the school, after comparing WC with Shotokan Karate. He first took 4 months of Shotokan, then 4 months of WC with us, then another 4 months of shotokan again to which he just completed and came back to us and joined for 1 yr. While he was back at the shotokan for his last 4 month venture, he entered a tournament and won his class in the sparring event, I believe it was orange belt level. At that time he only had equal time in both Shotokan and Wing Chun. He said his WC helped allot in the sparring as the basic techniques enhanced his ability to defend and score a point on his opponents.

orange belt is like the third rank in shotokan... assuming that the other people in his division had never trained anything else, then they had very limited experience and exposure anyway. He had more, which worked to his advantage.

Another student who moved out of the city for work, came back to visit for the holidays and related a story. His roommate is a 2nd degree Black Belt in Karate and offered the student the opportunity to come down to his school to train if he wanted to. The student took him up on his offer, just to get some training in, and after two classes the roommate decided to enter the student into Karate tournament in Vancouver, BC. The student won the Brown Belt sparring division, and entered the Black Belt Sparring division and won Gold there too, with only 2 Karate classes under his belt and 2 years of intense WC training under his belt also. The point is, skill sets in various arts is different, and the fact of the matter is some arts emphasize strength/speed more than skill in the actual technique of there particular art. Besides all that WC movement and concepts are at a skill/effectiveness level many levels above most MA out there today, IMO.

I've got a similar story. A WC instructor in the area entered a local continuous sparring tourney - he got mauled by a brown belt in karate. The winner of the tournament ended up being a tkd black belt. This year, my thai coach entered one. He beat all of the JMA and CMA who entered and won the tournament. There's really no point to such examples though, as anyone has the potential to win in such an event on any given day.

The majority of my posts concentrate on one thing, the effectiveness of the art practiced, not on the individual attributes of the individual, because anyone can get into shape, condition themselves for a competition or personal reasons, not everyone can move effectively or defend themselves effectively if not exposed to it. All of us know how to do push ups, not all of know how to simultaneously defend ourselves and attack.


maybe that's your problem - conditioning is not limited to non ma specific activities.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by crimsonking
Just in case anyone missed my point -

For a sport fighter - conditioning is paramount, and may well be the real deciding factor in a match.

For a non-sports fighter - conditioning is still an important factor, however i would suggest that it is not the real deciding factor in a fight.


May not be, but CAN be. you may have to run. you may be fighting multiple attackers. your opponent may be better than you. you are a bouncer in a bar and a huge brawl breaks out - the list goes on. Adrenaline will sap what little endurance you do have VERY quickly, so a decent level of conditioning will help immensely.

[SAAMAG]

Well, IMO, a "fighter"...someone who truly trains for combat, will show the fruits of his labor through the skill of his technique AND the inherent physical fitness that comes with training as a fighter. You can't seperate the two, you can't say you're someone who lives the way of the warrior but then not be able to run a mile without collapsing. The two are in seperable.

If you train in combat, your body will show it. If you don't, then that will be obvious as well. I grow weary of the fairy tales that still get thrown around about how it takes no physical attributes only "proper angles" and good "technique". It absolutely does not only rely on that and believing otherwise shows lack or fear of coming to terms with reality.

Training to fight, cannot be done without conditioning. It cannot be seperated, because it's an inherent part of fighting. Plain and simple. No if's and's or but's.

And thank you seven star for actually understanding what the post said! Conditioning may not be a factor should the find end in the cliche 3 seconds...but what if it doesnt? Do you have the conditioning to last the fight? That was the point of the post, which you seem to fully understand as did the other people who fight on here. Its a universal truth, with those that actually train to fight.

[Matrix]

Hey Van,
I'm still interested in knowing what you mean by "old" people.

[sihing]

Originally posted by Vankuen
Well, IMO, a "fighter"...someone who truly trains for combat, will show the fruits of his labor through the skill of his technique AND the inherent physical fitness that comes with training as a fighter. You can't seperate the two, you can't say you're someone who lives the way of the warrior but then not be able to run a mile without collapsing. The two are in seperable.

If you train in combat, your body will show it. If you don't, then that will be obvious as well. I grow weary of the fairy tales that still get thrown around about how it takes no physical attributes only "proper angles" and good "technique". It absolutely does not only rely on that and believing otherwise shows lack or fear of coming to terms with reality.

Training to fight, cannot be done without conditioning. It cannot be seperated, because it's an inherent part of fighting. Plain and simple. No if's and's or but's.

And thank you seven star for actually understanding what the post said! Conditioning may not be a factor should the find end in the cliche 3 seconds...but what if it doesnt? Do you have the conditioning to last the fight? That was the point of the post, which you seem to fully understand as did the other people who fight on here. Its a universal truth, with those that actually train to fight.

Agreed here in the sense that your body will show it, proof is in the ability of the individual to move. Conditioning is off course necessary in the beginning and when competing, but if competing is not your thing, as many do not have a competitive nature, then why train your body to the ground only to weaken it and possibly destroy it by hurting yourself, like some on this forum are experiencing now. I've done that also as well as many fellow sihings and sidis as well as Sifu himself, we've all been there and done that. The question I ask my self is can I still perform the art with some sort of quality skill, are the kicks/punches still powerful and fast. If I felt they weren't up to the standard I have set for myself then yah I could see myself training more for that purpose, but I haven't. Obviously if someone totally quits training and participating in WC then their skills will deteriorate quicker, but there still will be a base set of skills, that wasn't there if they never trained in the first place, only if the hard work was put into the attainment of that skill.

As to lasting more than 3 seconds in a fight Van, if someone in your family or a close friend was in danger and you had to defend them in a physical way, whatta think you would do, give up and crawl under a table or continue the fight, and use whatever was there to help you succeed in that endeavor. Again it all depends on the situation, and also the same "fatigue" factor applies to your opponent. Meeting someone that is just as skilled as you and in better shape on the street is how likely? If this is the case then one thing for sure, they haven't learned much from there training in regards to self control and attitudes towards others. Anyone trained in the MA to a high level learns more than methods to injure other human beings. For me to use my skills requires allot of pushing from someone intent on hurting me or someone in my family, as there's always the option to walk away. Remember if you portray yourself as a victim you will be one, if you portray yourself as someone prepared you will be less likely to have problems.


James

[Matrix]

Originally posted by sihing
As to lasting more than 3 seconds in a fight Van, if someone in your family or a close friend was in danger and you had to defend them in a physical way, whatta think you would do, give up and crawl under a table or continue the fight, and use whatever was there to help you succeed in that endeavor. Again it all depends on the situation, and also the same "fatigue" factor applies to your opponent. Meeting someone that is just as skilled as you and in better shape on the street is how likely? James,
You've made this same arguement before. Quite frankly I think you're deluding yourself. You think that the adreline from the excitement of the moment you save you, but I think you're wrong. I think we could all be more well rounded in our approach, at least I know I can.
As for the likelihood of encountering a skilled fighter who is in better shape, I hate the idea of preparing for mediocrity. I'm not a gambler, so I'm not concerned with odds. You don't need to be in "better" shape, you just need to be in good shape.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Matrix
James,
You've made this same arguement before. Quite frankly I think you're deluding yourself. You think that the adreline from the excitement of the moment you save you, but I think you're wrong.

Agreed. Adrenaline actually has the opposite effect. your muscles get stronger, vision gets better, etc. but it's only for a short period of time. After that burst, the body becomes sapped and you begin to tire. It doesn't take long at all.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sihing
Conditioning is off course necessary in the beginning

Why would you think that it's not necessary at later stages?


and when competing, but if competing is not your thing, as many do not have a competitive nature, then why train your body to the ground only to weaken it and possibly destroy it by hurting yourself, like some on this forum are experiencing now.


intense conditioning and hurting yourself are NOT synonymous. just like anything else, you can hurt yourself if done improperly. I know several non-competitive, non intense (IMO, anyway) MA who have hurt themselves while training.

and also the same "fatigue" factor applies to your opponent. Meeting someone that is just as skilled as you and in better shape on the street is how likely?

regardless of the chances, is that a chance you WANT to take? shouldn't we be training for a worst case scenario?

[Matrix]

Originally posted by SevenStar Agreed. Adrenaline actually has the opposite effect. your muscles get stronger, vision gets better, etc. but it's only for a short period of time. After that burst, the body becomes sapped and you begin to tire. It doesn't take long at all. I'm with you SevenStar. Even if a fight only lasts a minute or two, even 30 seconds. I think that the perception of time seems to be distorted in these situations. It can be the longest 30 seconds of your life. Anyone who has ever been in the ring knows that a round that lasts a few minutes seem like forever, and that situation is essentially less life-threatening.

And of course, let's not forget, our opponent is probably going to have an adrenaline rush of his own.

And I think you're spot-on with your comments on the following post as well. :cool:

Peace

[old jong]

There is more than adrenaline involved in some situations.

There have been many cases of small women fighting back on a rapist or something and managing to get out of it and survive with multiples fractures and even stab wounds.
The factor there was fear tranformed in hate and fury toward the attacker and the will to take the situation in hands,not permitting the attacker to dictate his conditions no more.It is a mindset toward survival and it imply more than mere chemicals in the bloodstream.It is the mind.This happens when a victim understand that there is nothing to lose in fighting back and that injuries are inevitable.

This state of ming is hard to reach when you only have to "tap out" to cease a dangerous situation (IMO) Fatigue is often caused by the simple desire to stop the fight when there is an easy way out but,imagine there is no way out?...

The book "Strong on defense" talks about just that! It is backed by experiences,not theory or science.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by old jong
The book "Strong on defense" talks about just that! It is backed by experiences,not theory or science. OJ,
Thanks for reminding me. I've been meaning to read that book.

In the cases you mention, I think that the state of mind is of course important. It's about keeping your focus, and not "freaking out" so to speak. Smaller, larger, man or woman, sometimes it's mind over matter.

I don't mind, and they don't matter. ;)

Having said that, being in good shape can improve your odds of success tremendously. And that's the crux of the matter. Skill is good, skill and fighting-fit is much better, IMO. Of course, as always, your mileage may vary.

[old jong]

I don't mind, and they don't matter.

Good one Bill!
Good shape,mind setting,nothing should be neglected.
About the book: It is about the harsh reality and it is even frightening to read sometimes.But at the same time it is a tribute to our natural survival instinct.The thing that has made ordinary people beat incredible odds in the real life.
Nothing is garanteed but you are sure to lose or die if you stop to fight.
Read it and tell me about it. ;)

[SAAMAG]

Originally posted by Matrix
Hey Van,
I'm still interested in knowing what you mean by "old" people.

Sorry Matrix I must've missed that. The "old" people statement was in reply to one of James' posts talking about how older people being able to fight effectively without the conditioning that were speaking of here. So I asked him how many "old" people he's seen in full out fights in order to come to this conclusion.

The stories of the old greying master being able to perfom as he did when he was 20 is a farce. We are born, we get old, and we die. The body will continue to deteriorate and there isn't anything we can do to stop it...slow it down yes...but stop it no.

[SAAMAG]

Originally posted by Matrix
James,
You've made this same arguement before. Quite frankly I think you're deluding yourself. You think that the adreline from the excitement of the moment you save you, but I think you're wrong. I think we could all be more well rounded in our approach, at least I know I can.
As for the likelihood of encountering a skilled fighter who is in better shape, I hate the idea of preparing for mediocrity. I'm not a gambler, so I'm not concerned with odds. You don't need to be in "better" shape, you just need to be in good shape.

I couldn't have said it better myself. Why train to be mediocre, or less then what you could be? I can understand taking it in cycles, as going full out on training 24-7 can be very draining on the body and psyche as well. Doing things in cycles is understandable and often times recommended to give the body proper recooperation time.

As far as the relevance of ring fighting to real life...

in the ring you know who you're going to fight, you know of what they're capable of, you know the limits of how long the fight could last because there's rounds. So you train for those goals.

IN REAL LIFE, you don't know who you're fighting, what condition they're in, you don't know when or where the fight can happen or what other variables might be involved. So you're gambling you and/or your friend's/families lives when you don't train yourself in EVERY aspect of fighting to the best of your ability. Never settle to be less then what you could be, because you never know when you will need that extra little bit.

As stated so many posts ago, the proficiency in your technique only matters if you have to juice left to make it happen.

[anerlich]

The book "Strong on defense" talks about just that! It is backed by experiences,not theory or science.

That's true. However, Strong's book also talks a great deal about mental rehearsal, planning, and other forms of mental "preparation" or ... "conditioning". IMO that book is probably the best on the subject of self defense ever written, but nothing in there says that conditioning at some level at least is not part of the game. "Never give up", one of his maxims, is much easier if you are well conditioned BOTH physically and mentally.

World champ Kostya Tszyu is often quoted as saying "boxing is 90% mental". But few people on Earth train harder - perhaps the mental toughness is what carries him through the phenomenally hard physical training, and that's really the hard part.

As for the "old person" comments, After turning 50 this year and last year having a knee, then an ankle injury that restricted my ability to work cardio for two months, I can tell you that conditioning and overall ability DO decrease with age. And they decrease quicker without maintenance. Life sucks, get a helmet.

If you're running away from 5 possibly tooled up guys (and, yes, you WILL be running if you want to avoid the hospital, and this is exactly what Strong would advise you to do), you better have some cardio.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Vankuen
The body will continue to deteriorate and there isn't anything we can do to stop it...slow it down yes...but stop it no. Now you tell me. :p

By the way, I think conditioning becomes more important as you get older. Not just for martial arts, but for general quality of life issues. I don't like to "act my age".

Thanks for the response.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by old jong
About the book: It is about the harsh reality and it is even frightening to read sometimes. You mean like real life? I'll definitely have to check it out.

Merci

[anerlich]

If this is the case then one thing for sure, they haven't learned much from there training in regards to self control and attitudes towards others. Anyone trained in the MA to a high level learns more than methods to injure other human beings.

There's ample evidence walking around that refutes the argument that MA training to a high level necessarily turns one into a paragon of virtue. It can and does affect people positively, but I'm sure all of us have seen that this is not universal.

If you want to become more peaceful and virtuous, your MA training is NOT enough.

Like you with your skills and conditioning, I believe continual hard work, after a certain period, toward becoming a saint is unnecessary ;)

[Ultimatewingchun]

By the way, I think conditioning becomes more important as you get older. Not just for martial arts, but for general quality of life issues. I don't like to "act my age". (Matrix)


Couldn't agree more, Bill.

As you get older - if you want to stay in shape...you have to work harder than you ever did in terms of conditioning.

It's fascinating, though.

I am a better fighter now than I ever was - and I just turned 54 at the end of October.

Because my knowledge and skill level is beyond what it ever was (and I constantly seek to learn new things and find more efficient ways of doing old things)...

while simultaneously working very hard on conditioning, cardio, and actual sparring and wrestling experience.

Alas...though...

I do run out-of-gas quicker then ever before - and injuries take a lot longer to heal than before.

But I'm convinced that all of this work keeps both my body and my mind young...which is just shorthand for saying that I'm dramatically slowing down the aging process.

You can slow it down - but you can't stop it.

But what's fascinating is seeing JUST HOW MUCH you can slow it down.

I will never forget a remarkable gentleman I had the pleasure of knowing from around 1979 to his death in 1990. (He was 89 years old when he died).

I can remember once seeing him RUN up a flight of stairs in 1984 (he was 83)...TWO STEPS AT A TIME. (He didn't know that I was watching him).

And his intellect was sharp as a tack.

Now...Andrew just said this:

"If you want to become more peaceful and virtuous, your MA training is NOT enough."

Again - couldn't agree more. This old gentleman I referred to was not a martial artist - but very physically fit. But most importantly - he WAS a paragon of virtue. He was the leader for many years of his life (about 50 years)...of the United Lodge of Theosophists here in NYC.

Theosophy is a modern representation of ancient wisdom that seeks to form a nucleus of Universal Brotherhood of Humanity, without distinction of race, creed, sex, caste, or color...through the study of ancient and modern religions, philosophies, and sciences...and the investigation of the unexplained laws of Nature and the psychic powers latent in man.

The modern Theosophical movement was founded in 1875 by Helena P. Blavatsky...a Russian woman of noble birth whose many books and articles - the most famous of which are ISIS UNVEILED and most especially...THE SECRET DOCTRINE...are masterpieces, each book being about 1300 pages long.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
As you get older - if you want to stay in shape...you have to work harder than you ever did in terms of conditioning.

It's fascinating, though.

I am a better fighter now than I ever was - and I just turned 54 at the end of October. I agreed it's fascinating. I think it goes to show that a lot of aging is brought on prematurely by limited thinking. Age, to some degree, is a state of mind. The caveat is that you need to be vigilant, and take care of yourself, and of course, some good genetics come in handy as well. ;)

As for fighting better, its probably because you're fighting smarter. That would be my guess.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"As for fighting better, its probably because you're fighting smarter. That would be my guess."

You're right.

[sihing]

Let me ask you all something, what made the greats great? What made Michael Jordon great, or Ali, Bruce Lee, Wayne Gretzky, McEnroe and all the rest of them that are famous for there athletic achievements. Were there not other athletes that they all competed against that trained just as hard as them? It was there skills that made them better, even though most of the above were naturally gifted with them, it was the pure skill that allowed them to overcome their just an eager competitors. For self defense purposes, when one truly has good to great skill in an art, do you all really think that just because they put on a few pounds in the latter years that they know nothing in the area of combat? Do all of there abilities leave them because they can't run a mile? There's a thread on the kung-fu forum about Chan Tai San, one of his students is relating stories about this master who is dead now. If you look at any pictures of the man in the latter years he doesn't look like much, but from what I understand he was a very effective fighter, so prejudging someone based on how they look is not a wise choice.

Conditioning is a good thing, I whole heartedly agree here, and I have always been active my whole life, always doing something or another to stay in shape. Concerning WC, my goal is to never have to use it, but if need be the skills are there, because the work has been done, and in a way the work is still being done, just in a different way. Like Victor said about his own abilities, in his own estimation he believes he is at his best ever and he attributes it to his conditioning program and understanding of what his tools can do. I'm glad that he feels that way and he's probably right about his own abilities. I feel the same about myself, the skills are improving, just that I don't attribute that to any special conditioning program, but more to the fact that I'm living the art on a daily basis, teaching it, refining it, and expressing it all the time. It works for me.


James

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by crimsonking
I would also suggest that what one style doesn't name and another does - the style that names it will tend to show a far deeper understanding of it, and therefore better training to develop the practicioner.


Another thing is that development of something that is not made explicit can be a haphazard process - that's why wing chun is so great (IMO) - it's a training system that hands everything to you on a plate - although it most certainly may not be obvious. You've got to empty your cup and work your way through the whole system. Martial arts that are based on sparring and less on development are more sink or swim in terms of an individuals learning.


I don't completely agree with that. I see how it is possible, however. With the examples that I gave - let's take judo and peng - without the peng, the throw will not be done properly. Consequently, you will train it over and over. yielding is one of the staples of judo. It by itself is not named, however. borrowing, yielding and uprooting are part of the bigger picture, which is offbalancing.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Standing for very long periods in this stance builds a strength of mind and body which is a very hard combination to defeat. If you can pass through the period where the boredom sets in, pass through the burning legs and total body soreness that turns ice cold and steel your mind to the pain you will eventually really begin to feel everything that your body is doing and you will truly be in control of your body not your body in control of you."

Except for the part about boredom - long hard sparring sessions against skilled opponents who are capable of giving you a hard time by inflicting pain on your body, confusion to your mind, and a challenge to your courage to go on...CAN BRING THE SAME BENEFITS...

while simultaneously training/sharpening your fighting skills in action.

Spent my time doing long SLT's....(and still do occasionally).

But after the beginners's stage - it's time to find more productive ways to develop the kind of endurance and control described here.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sihing
Let me ask you all something, what made the greats great? What made Michael Jordon great, or Ali, Bruce Lee, Wayne Gretzky, McEnroe and all the rest of them that are famous for there athletic achievements. Were there not other athletes that they all competed against that trained just as hard as them? It was there skills that made them better, even though most of the above were naturally gifted with them, it was the pure skill that allowed them to overcome their just an eager competitors.



okay, now let me ask you this - if you took away all of their conditioning, where would they be right now? with all the skill in the world, jordan would be a nobody if he couldn't even play a solid quarter. Ali would be a joke if he couldn't last longer than two rounds. If McEnroe couldn't play more than one set, then what? you can't separate the two. Those athletes have skill, but they also have conditioning.


For self defense purposes, when one truly has good to great skill in an art, do you all really think that just because they put on a few pounds in the latter years that they know nothing in the area of combat? Do all of there abilities leave them because they can't run a mile? There's a thread on the kung-fu forum about Chan Tai San, one of his students is relating stories about this master who is dead now. If you look at any pictures of the man in the latter years he doesn't look like much, but from what I understand he was a very effective fighter, so prejudging someone based on how they look is not a wise choice.

it's not about basing them on how they look. There are plenty of heavier guys with plenty of endurance - look at guys like sammo hung (who is much bigger then chan tai san)

[sihing]

Originally posted by SevenStar
quote:Originally posted by sihing
Let me ask you all something, what made the greats great? What made Michael Jordon great, or Ali, Bruce Lee, Wayne Gretzky, McEnroe and all the rest of them that are famous for there athletic achievements. Were there not other athletes that they all competed against that trained just as hard as them? It was there skills that made them better, even though most of the above were naturally gifted with them, it was the pure skill that allowed them to overcome their just an eager competitors.


Sevenstar:
okay, now let me ask you this - if you took away all of their conditioning, where would they be right now? with all the skill in the world, jordan would be a nobody if he couldn't even play a solid quarter. Ali would be a joke if he couldn't last longer than two rounds. If McEnroe couldn't play more than one set, then what? you can't separate the two. Those athletes have skill, but they also have conditioning.

Sihing:
For self defense purposes, when one truly has good to great skill in an art, do you all really think that just because they put on a few pounds in the latter years that they know nothing in the area of combat? Do all of there abilities leave them because they can't run a mile? There's a thread on the kung-fu forum about Chan Tai San, one of his students is relating stories about this master who is dead now. If you look at any pictures of the man in the latter years he doesn't look like much, but from what I understand he was a very effective fighter, so prejudging someone based on how they look is not a wise choice.

Sevenstar:
it's not about basing them on how they look. There are plenty of heavier guys with plenty of endurance - look at guys like sammo hung (who is much bigger then chan tai san)


I never said all of the above mentioned athletes were unconditioned, I said that the one thing that put them above their fellow competitors was their higher skill levels.

If you take away their conditioning, then take away their opponents conditioning and see what happens then? In the end, you can be in the best shape of anyone in the world, does that make you capable of defending yourself. Again, I think there is a difference in definition of the term "Conditioning" among most of us here. To me conditioning means-how fast can I move, how long can I perform the task, how much punishment can I take- all physical attributes, to which will leave you fast when you stop training. Let me ask this question, how are you going to teach others how to defend themselves if they do not have the same time commitment that you do towards your individual training/conditioning regimen, and if they can't commit the same amount of time as you, then will your method work for them if they are not as physically conditioned as you. I can honestly say that when I teach, I don't people conditioning methods, but skill methods, and if they put the work in (as anyone has to do in the learning stages to gain any type of quality in skill) they will have it for life (probably not to the highest levels if they totally quit training and participating, but the idea is to make it a part of your life and maintain it which is easier than gaining the skill). The problem is, and it is present in my kwoon also, that most don't or won't commit to what needs to be done to learn the skills.


James

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Sihing73
Again I would ask how you condition yourself to take a hit in the head with a 40 bottle? Again I would ask which is more important with limited time, physical or mental toughness?? You get out there and fight and compete and spar. In the course of that, you will take some pretty good shots to the head. The person who has taken those shots will be much more likely not to fold when hit with the 40 than the person who has never been hit full force in the head before.

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
"As for fighting better, its probably because you're fighting smarter. That would be my guess."

You're right.
Oh yeah ;)
PR

[Matrix]

Originally posted by sihing
What made Michael Jordon great, or Ali, Bruce Lee, Wayne Gretzky, McEnroe and all the rest of them that are famous for there athletic achievements. James,
We're not playing games here. Also, did you ever notice how Gretzky was never hit like your average player. Don't get me wrong, I am a big Gretzky fan, and I understand a support the reasons behind it, but he did not have to suffer the hard checks in the corners, or have to drop his gloves. Guys like Gretzky and Jordan were franchise players, and in fact almost personified the league. Everyone understood that these guys made the sport more popular and no one in their right mind would hurt them because they knew that their contract was indirectly tied to these super-stars. As for Mac, who cares? ;)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sihing
I never said all of the above mentioned athletes were unconditioned, I said that the one thing that put them above their fellow competitors was their higher skill levels.

If you take away their conditioning, then take away their opponents conditioning and see what happens then?


you're adding what ifs into the situation. you NEVER assume you opponent is less skilled and conditioned than you - this makes people complacent. you and I seem to be coming from opposite sides of the fence. you assume that your opponent will be less skilled than you - I don't assume that. I make my assumption based on us being equal. In which case, attributes like conditioning are in fact key.

In the end, you can be in the best shape of anyone in the world, does that make you capable of defending yourself.

and, unfortunately, training MA doesn't mean a person can defend themselves either...

Again, I think there is a difference in definition of the term "Conditioning" among most of us here. To me conditioning means-how fast can I move, how long can I perform the task, how much punishment can I take- all physical attributes, to which will leave you fast when you stop training.

I agree with your definition. We are on the same page there. the obvious goal is NOT to stop training. in order to be on top of your game, you need all attributes and skills. one of my judo coaches is 76 and he still kicks ass. Why? because he never stopped training. if you stop, then yes you will lose those attributes. however, you will lose your skill as well. This is obvious when you see people who have gotten "rusty".


Let me ask this question, how are you going to teach others how to defend themselves if they do not have the same time commitment that you do towards your individual training/conditioning regimen, and if they can't commit the same amount of time as you, then will your method work for them if they are not as physically conditioned as you.


Let me ask you this - why can't they be combined. It's not about running and doing pushups all day. the idea is to combine the conditioning WITH the skills you are teaching them so that they learn simultaneously. CMA tends to segment things - iron body, endurance training and skills training are all done separately. In our approach, they are all one. thai pad training provides endurance, skills training and toughening. Bag work does the same. Sparring does this also. Efficiency.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by sihing
Let me ask this question, how are you going to teach others how to defend themselves if they do not have the same time commitment that you do towards your individual training/conditioning regimen, and if they can't commit the same amount of time as you, then will your method work for them if they are not as physically conditioned as you. You can teach them only what they are willing to learn. Just as you cannot teach desire, you cannot teach conditioning per se. You can demonstrate, explain concepts make corrections, etc, but the student is ultimately responsible for their own success or failure. So it goes with conditioning. You can tell people it's important, explain why you think it's important, and even show them some exercises to improve/develop conditioning, but they still have to break the sweat themselves. Sure, they can develop self-defence without it, but I think it's a big plus to have fitness in your arsenal.

[Ultimatewingchun]

7Star's latest post was right on the money.

The idea is not to stop training. Then you don't lose your conditioning and your skills.

There's no excuse for not doing both simultaneously.

Don't buy the "I have no time to do both" argument.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by SevenStar Let me ask you this - why can't they be combined. SevenStar,
I agree. Some people like to talk like these are mutually exclusive things, when in fact they reinforce each other. You can have one without the other, no problem there. Personally, I like to workout, almost as much as I enjoy my WC training and I just think it makes sense.

[sihing]

Some good replies, and I agree that you can train skill and conditioning at the same time in some cases but when fatigued the skills become sloppy because the body starts to break down and can't react/move as efficient as before. Don't take this as bragging, but using myself as an example, training the basics for over a decade now gives me an advantage over the beginner. I can push my body to the physical limit (not that I do that too often) and still perform the movements the way they should be with no loss of efficiency and effectiveness because the tools are in me now at this stage of development, plus I don't get tired as fast as the others because there is no tension in the body when practicing WC. For example, when warming the class up sometimes I will take them through a air drill, (like a pak sao-front kick drill against a round punch) to get the blood running thought their veins, and each and every time I find the students that participate in the conditioning class quite often, tiring out way before I do, and I do no cardio/conditioning in the class (only weight lifting 3 X a week). It's because their bodies are struggling to perform the movement and technique correct whereas mine isn't, therefore it moves more efficiently. There has to be a time for skills practice and a time for conditioning practice (but the conditioning should include similar activity and movement to that of skills training only that the conditioning aspect is emphasized), and then later on in time they are combined at the more advanced stages of development . Practicing chi-sao in the beginner stages and being physically tired at the same time is not a good idea as you will be sloppy and learn bad habits. Since WC is a skill based art, this requires us to be more precise in our movements so that in practice they are perfect, which is hard to do when you’re tired.

Sevenstar:
I don't make any assumptions when in a combat situation, that's the first mistake. My goal is to end it fast, and let the body/mind do the work without any conscious effort.


James

[Matrix]

Originally posted by sihing
Don't take this as bragging, but using myself as an example, training the basics for over a decade now gives me an advantage over the beginner. That's quite an achievement. :rolleyes:
You should turn that into a t-shirt or bumper sticker.


I can push my body to the physical limit (not that I do that too often) and still perform the movements the way they should be with no loss of efficiency and effectiveness because the tools are in me now at this stage of development, plus I don't get tired as fast as the others because there is no tension in the body when practicing WC. The assumption being that your "limit" is some reasonable standard that can be transfered beyond your training.


I don't make any assumptions when in a combat situation, that's the first mistake. My goal is to end it fast, and let the body/mind do the work without any conscious effort. These two statements seem contradictory to me. You say you "don't make any assumptions", and then you immediately "assume" that it will end fast. Go figure.....

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sihing
Some good replies, and I agree that you can train skill and conditioning at the same time in some cases but when fatigued the skills become sloppy because the body starts to break down and can't react/move as efficient as before. Don't take this as bragging, but using myself as an example, training the basics for over a decade now gives me an advantage over the beginner. I can push my body to the physical limit (not that I do that too often) and still perform the movements the way they should be with no loss of efficiency and effectiveness because the tools are in me now at this stage of development, plus I don't get tired as fast as the others because there is no tension in the body when practicing WC. For example, when warming the class up sometimes I will take them through a air drill, (like a pak sao-front kick drill against a round punch) to get the blood running thought their veins, and each and every time I find the students that participate in the conditioning class quite often, tiring out way before I do, and I do no cardio/conditioning in the class (only weight lifting 3 X a week). It's because their bodies are struggling to perform the movement and technique correct whereas mine isn't, therefore it moves more efficiently. There has to be a time for skills practice and a time for conditioning practice (but the conditioning should include similar activity and movement to that of skills training only that the conditioning aspect is emphasized), and then later on in time they are combined at the more advanced stages of development . Practicing chi-sao in the beginner stages and being physically tired at the same time is not a good idea as you will be sloppy and learn bad habits. Since WC is a skill based art, this requires us to be more precise in our movements so that in practice they are perfect, which is hard to do when you’re tired.

I don't take that as bragging at all - you're supposed to be able to do those things. Now, I wouldn't attribute it solely to technique, however. You are correct - relaxation is a necessity. the other part of that equation is conditioning. you are used to doing the pak sao/front kick drill because you've done it for so long. when a neophyte kicks repetitively, what happens? his ab/adductors get tired from the repetitive lifting motion. yours don't because they are better conditioned. Like I said in my previous post, conditioning is not limited to doing pushups all day.

By your own admission, you don't do cardio. So what happens if you are in a situation where your fight is prolonged? you are in the street and happen to have an altercation with a guy who trains boxing. the boxer is used to prolonged rounds, so your cardio is at neophyte standard compared to his. Assuming you have equal skill, that puts you slightly worse off, no? That's all I'm saying - conditioning IMO should be combined with training so that you have as many variables in your favor as possible.

Sevenstar:
I don't make any assumptions when in a combat situation, that's the first mistake. My goal is to end it fast, and let the body/mind do the work without any conscious effort.


look at your posts. you just headed down the same path with "my goal is to end it fast" - that's cool, I'll change my statement - you assume that you will be able to end it quickly. However, that would imply a greater skill level than your opponent, would it not? What several of us are saying is that you may not always be able to end it quickly, for various reasons. When those situations arise, you need to be prepared for them.

[Matrix]

SevenStar,

Once again I am in total agreement with your post.

Another thing that came to mind was the mental edge that good conditioning provides as an added benefit. You feel more confident when you know you can run if you have to, or last through a prolonged altercation if need be. That does not mean that you will win, but it's a great tool to have in your toolbox.

James made the comment in an earlier post; which I totally agree with. Something along the lines of not looking like a vicitim. I think that if you look fit, you are more likely to give the impression that you're prepared. Thus making someone think twice before picking you out as a target. Just a theory.

[SevenStar]

I agree with both of those. The point about mental conditioning was an excellent one.

[sihing]

I can agree that people do feel more confident about their abilities when they are in better shape, and when I was competiting more in sports I felt that way also. Then I learned that confidence just comes from within and that over the years I've proven to myself that the ability is there to handle most situations when it comes to self defense.

I don't think it is assuming to have the philosophy of getting the confrontation over with quick. I may be less skilled than my "imaginary boxer opponent", but he still has to deal with a skillful opponent himself, which will give anyone problems. Once the problems(barriers) are in place the odds are more even and therefore my chances of success increase. Yes, if the fight lasts longer he may have an advantage, who knows, maybe once he realizes that the person in front of him is also skilled in a form of combat, possibly unknown to him, that may affect his own confidence level and stamina. Many factors can come in to play here, but more than likely the element of surprise is on my side, due to the fact that most are unaware of WC and what it is about. The element of surprise a great equalizer IMO. And even if the opponent is aware of WC, does he have the tools to stop what is coming towards him. Do I believe in my tools being able to stop each and every attack? Yes, but the real question is can I do it correctly when it is needed today. Well it's worked well in the past, so based on that I would have to say yes also
But who really knows for sure, all you can do it be confident in your abilities and try your best to avoid violent confrontations.


James

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sihing
I don't think it is assuming to have the philosophy of getting the confrontation over with quick. I may be less skilled than my "imaginary boxer opponent", but he still has to deal with a skillful opponent himself, which will give anyone problems. Once the problems(barriers) are in place the odds are more even and therefore my chances of success increase. Yes, if the fight lasts longer he may have an advantage, who knows, maybe once he realizes that the person in front of him is also skilled in a form of combat, possibly unknown to him, that may affect his own confidence level and stamina.


why gamble on that chance?

Many factors can come in to play here, but more than likely the element of surprise is on my side, due to the fact that most are unaware of WC and what it is about. The element of surprise a great equalizer IMO.


WC is one of the most widely practiced CMA in existence... once again, that's not a gamble I'd make.

And even if the opponent is aware of WC, does he have the tools to stop what is coming towards him.

he can ask you the same question.


But who really knows for sure, all you can do it be confident in your abilities and try your best to avoid violent confrontations.

I agree. I'll also add that you need to train properly, which IMO should entail conditioning also.

[sihing]

Gamble, lol... Out of 16yrs in training in this stuff, teaching this stuff, I can count on both hands how many people that I've meet with previous experience or knowledge of the art, from people I've met personally or from my experience as a teacher. If the odds are 200,000 to 1 in favor of not meeting someone that has WC experience on the street I would say that is not gambling. You guys use that line all the time, try another one...Besides, I already said in my post that even if they have experience or exposure with it then can they handle what I have to offer them (same applies to me, and I'm confident that I can, quality skill is hard to deal with in any manner for any fighter). I can probably honestly say that if I had a fight with a stranger and realized that he had WC experience, I would probably stop fighting and have a beer with him, lol.


James

[Matrix]

Originally posted by sihing
Then I learned that confidence just comes from within and that over the years I've proven to myself that the ability is there to handle most situations when it comes to self defense. Of course confidence comes from within. However, that confidence needs to be based on something tangible, otherwise your self-confidence may really be self-delusion. Besides, I said it can make you feel "more confident".


Many factors can come in to play here, but more than likely the element of surprise is on my side, due to the fact that most are unaware of WC and what it is about. Self-delusion Part II. I think you may find a few unhappy surprises of your own when reality comes around. Unless of course, you're beating up those beginners again. ;)


But who really knows for sure, all you can do it be confident in your abilities and try your best to avoid violent confrontations. Self-delusion Part III. There are no guarantees in life. Nothing is "for sure". except that we all know life will not last forever. Everything else is up for grabs. We may get a few lucky breaks along the way - that's a bonus. Having said that, you have the power to stack the odds ever so slightly more in your favor. Why would you not do it?? Why? Because it's easier not to do.

You're counting on things that you cannot control, such as the element of surprise, to bring victory your way. I think it's better to deal with the things that you can control, such as your level of fitness, so that you've at least done your best to be prepared.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by sihing
Gamble, lol... Out of 16yrs in training in this stuff, teaching this stuff, I can count on both hands how many people that I've meet with previous experience or knowledge of the art, from people I've met personally or from my experience as a teacher. 16 years. Big deal. You keep saying that as if this is about putting time in. It's about quality not quantity.


I can probably honestly say that if I had a fight with a stranger and realized that he had WC experience, I would probably stop fighting and have a beer with him, lol.
There are people who can fight who have never heard of Wing Chun. Wake up and smell the coffee!! Yeesh. :rolleyes:

[sihing]

Originally posted by Matrix
16 years. Big deal. You keep saying that as if this is about putting time in. It's about quality not quantity.

There are people who can fight who have never heard of Wing Chun. Wake up and smell the coffee!! Yeesh. :rolleyes:

If have no idea about me or my skills, and at least I've put clips of myself up here, so until you do the same, put up or shut up.

Yeah, like Terence says, we can all fight naturally, then puts someone down for not sparring/fighting enough high quality people, and until you do you have nothing. A bunch of contradictions....

James

[Matrix]

Originally posted by sihing
you have to support the buddies so ...... James,

I believe that you have read my response to your post, as hinted to by the above quote. I have since deleted it, because I feel that this is between the two of us now and I have made my point. No need for a public display.

If you did not read it, I will PM it to you. Or I can repost if you prefer. Like I said, I feel that I made my point and I'll leave it at that. It's your call.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

This is starting to degenerate into a p***ing match. Why don't we try to agree to dissagree ;)

FWIW here are my thoughts on the matter:

1) Conditioning should not be the overall determining factor in a street fight. While it is always helpful to be in good or better condition, real fights do not last long, or should not.
2) Mental conditioning is vital to winning and even surviving a street fight. An often overlooked aspect is the mental condition and turmoil that someone has to deal with in the event that they harm someone else, even if it is justified.
3) Physical Conditioning is important and should be trained as time permits. However, it is one piece of the pie and should be considered in light of that fact. People who fight in competition will see the benefits of conditioning more than those training for the street.
4) Talk is cheap!! All of us can defend our views and rarely will anyone be convinced by internet postings of a different viewpoint. Often when met in person we find we are not all that far apart.

Can we agree that conditioning can be a factor in some situations but it is not necessarily the ultimpate equalizer on the street?? In any event physical conditioning is worth pursiuing if time permits.

Peace,

Dave

[chisauking]

If conditioning is the real deciding factor in a fight, then does it mean all the professional athletes in the world would be the best fighters?

I use to play badminton 7-days a week, 2-hours continously, at county standard... how come a fat boy that puffed and pant beat me so easily in the game? Could it be that skill was far more important?

Any one on this forum been in a genuine fight that lasted longer than 2-minutes once contact had been made?

[sihing]

Originally posted by Sihing73
Hello,

This is starting to degenerate into a p***ing match. Why don't we try to agree to dissagree ;)

FWIW here are my thoughts on the matter:

1) Conditioning should not be the overall determining factor in a street fight. While it is always helpful to be in good or better condition, real fights do not last long, or should not.
2) Mental conditioning is vital to winning and even surviving a street fight. An often overlooked aspect is the mental condition and turmoil that someone has to deal with in the event that they harm someone else, even if it is justified.
3) Physical Conditioning is important and should be trained as time permits. However, it is one piece of the pie and should be considered in light of that fact. People who fight in competition will see the benefits of conditioning more than those training for the street.
4) Talk is cheap!! All of us can defend our views and rarely will anyone be convinced by internet postings of a different viewpoint. Often when met in person we find we are not all that far apart.

Can we agree that conditioning can be a factor in some situations but it is not necessarily the ultimpate equalizer on the street?? In any event physical conditioning is worth pursiuing if time permits.

Peace,

Dave


Agreed, I have no problem with what you say Dave, I've always tried to be polite and courteous but sometimes, some just **** me off, with their attitudes....and to think we are country mates.

Again Dave, good post and agreed on all points...

James

[Vajramusti]

No one can or should argue against general conditioning for health and prolonged encounters..

But many aspects of conditioning are activity specific- a marathoner cannot automatically last 6 rounds of boxing or a boxer last on the ground against a conditioned grappling specialist.

Also as Dave(sihing 73) points out things are not that simple.
I have seen a golden glove district champ downed by a kicker who was nowhere near the shape of the golden glover. And I have seena street fighter destroy a major university football player on the street as he charged and tackled.. The "winners" were in shape enough for their strategy and tactics and their game..

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by sihing
If have no idea about me or my skills, and at least I've put clips of myself up here, so until you do the same, put up or shut up.That clip was of you doing a drill. That was not even close to hard sparring... let alone fighting. Only a theoretical non-fighter would think that was representative of what happens when fighting. Based on your posts, I think he has you and your skills pegged.

[sihing]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
That clip was of you doing a drill. That was not even close to hard sparring... let alone fighting. Only a theoretical non-fighter would think that was representative of what happens when fighting. Based on your posts, I think he has you and your skills pegged.

Oh no, now I'm depressed and totally disillusioned, and I thought I was a fighter, ohhhhhh...lol.

Please, keep thinking that way, luckily some know better

I think that thread about you on the Kung-fu forum has you pegged also, which is simply to ignore you...

James

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Sihing73
Conditioning should not be the overall determining factor in a street fight. While it is always helpful to be in good or better condition, real fights do not last long, or should not.
One of the guys I train with is a sheriff who works as a bailiff in a local court. One of his fellow bailiffs is an "expert" martial artist who has trained for about 15 years in a standup system and who was always bragging about his skills. He even gave a few seminars to the other bailiffs. According to my friend, this guy used to downplay conditioning because of his supposed skills.

One day, my training buddy took a defendent into the court room and left the other bailiff with another defendent in the holding room. When my friend returned, the prisoner was beating the crap out of the bailiff. Apparently, they had started scuffling and the prisoner, who was smaller, but more conditioned, took over when the bailiff ran out of gas.

The "expert" martial artist is now the laughing stock of his fellow bailiffs.

[sihing]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
One of the guys I train with is a sheriff who works as a bailiff in a local court. One of his fellow bailiffs is an "expert" martial artist who has trained for about 15 years in a standup system and who is always bragging about his skills. He even gave a few seminars to the other bailiffs. According to my friend this guy used downplay conditioning because of his supposed skills.

One day, my training buddy took a defendent into the court room and left the other bailiff with another defendent in the holding room. When my friend returned, the prisoner was beating the cr[b][/b}ap out of the bailiff. Apparently, they had started scuffling and the prisoner, who was smaller, but more conditioned, took over when the bailiff ran out of gas.

The "expert" martial artist is now the laughing stock of his fellow bailiffs.

Aren't law enforcement people limited in what they can do as to striking and such? That's why on "Cops" it takes 4 cops to take one guy down, their not allowed to strike and risk disciplinary action when doing so. The problem with law enforcement rules is the people working in that field "Hesitate" when the time arises, which is the worst thing to do.

I guess in this case this guy ate his words.

James

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by chisauking
Any one on this forum been in a genuine fight that lasted longer than 2-minutes once contact had been made? It takes less than a minute of hard effort to deplete your anaerobic reserves if you are not conditioned. You will also have severely limited lactic acid buffering capabilities. After this happens, your body will be flooded with lactic acid and you will be severely compromised in terms of your ability to perform any longer at a high level.

This is very easy to prove to yourself. For anyone who thinks conditioning is not important in a fight that might last for more than about a minute, go out to the local high school track and run a lap as fast as you can. See if you think you could do much in terms any additional physical activity after that.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by sihing
Aren't law enforcement people limited in what they can do as to striking and such? In California, police departments allow their officers to use the force necessary to subdue the suspect, as well as to defend themselves. If a suspect attempts to strike an officer, he is allowed to strike the suspect. The LA sheriff's academy spends a good portion of their defensive tactics time learning and doing striking.

The reason officers use the swarm to take down and subdue suspects is that this is the most effecient method for gaining control and subduing a resisting suspect.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by chisauking
If conditioning is the real deciding factor in a fight, then does it mean all the professional athletes in the world would be the best fighters? Because you still need the skills. I'm saying that conditioning is important, it is a component of an overall package and adds some extra dimension to your skill set.
No one said that conditioning is a stand-alone thing. Like I said earlier, one or two minutes in a fighting situation seems much longer.

[sihing]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
In California, most police departments allow their officer to use the force necessary to subdue the suspect. If a suspect attempts to strike an officer, he is allowed to strike the suspect.

The reason officers use the swarm to take down and subdue suspects is that this is the most effecient method for gaining control and subduing a resisting suspect.


Yes, I believe it's similar here in Canada, problem is in the training process it’s stressed not to injure the assailant unless absolutely necessary, so therefore the hesitation thing arises again. Just like bouncing and security work, I would make a lousy bouncer since I do not possess the raw power and strength to man handle someone causing trouble, I'd have to strike them to gain some control and that's when the courts get involved. I've trained lots of bouncers and had a few as friends and they are in court steady for stuff like that.

James

[Matrix]

Originally posted by sihing
Agreed, I have no problem with what you say Dave, I've always tried to be polite and courteous but sometimes, some just **** me off, with their attitudes....and to think we are country mates. What the hell does being from the same country have to do with anything on this forum? This is about opinions on martial arts and WC. I often don't agree with what you have to say. It's as simple as that. Let's just agree to disagree. Add conditioning to your workouts or don't, it makes not difference to me.

[Vajramusti]

Just for the record- I made no brief against conditioning-
but that heated pecan pie with ice cream sure was good.!!

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Vajramusti
Just for the record- I made no brief against conditioning-
but that heated pecan pie with ice cream sure was good.!! Joy,
You are evil !! ;) :D

[sihing]

Originally posted by Matrix
Because you still need the skills. I'm saying that conditioning is important, it is a component of an overall package and adds some extra dimension to your skill set.

So then what is the deciding factor, please educate us all with your vast experience. Oh yah, I almost forgot you stink... Nevermind.

Skills make or break it. Only when the skills are absolutely equal will the faster one have the greater advantage and that's when the physical attributes make the difference, when the skills are equal. Again, IMO, the difference between WC and most other MA is the quality of the skill level, we rely more on this than most. BJJ is another MA that reminds me of WC in allot of ways, it's a art not based soley on how strong or fast one is, but more on the skill in the technique, but when two equally skilled men in the art of BJJ compete then the physical factors play more of a role. Simple logic, I don't understand why there's some many on here that don't understand. Conditioning is important yes, it's not like I'm saying that a super out of shape person is capable of defeating another in great shape with equal skills.

James

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by sihing
Skills make or break it. Only when the skills are absolutely equal will the faster one have the greater advantage and that's when the physical attributes make the difference, when the skills are equal. Again, IMO, the difference between WC and most other MA is the quality of the skill level, we rely more on this than most.The average professional NFL football player with no training in fighting skills would beat the snot out of the average "skilled" WC practitioner.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by sihing
Skills make or break it. Only when the skills are absolutely equal will the faster one have the greater advantage and that's when the physical attributes make the difference, when the skills are equal. James
Yes, skills are paramount here, and certainly cannot be substituted with conditioning, I don't believe anyone has said that. Yes I know it's the title of the thread, but I never agreed with that strong of a statement in support of conditioning You can have the conditioning to run a marathon and still not be able to fight. However, I don't know if you need to be absolutely equal in skill before conditioning will be a factor, but I don't want to get into a hair-splitting exercise. And while I am a big fan of WC, I also realize that there are very skilled people in other arts, and other people who can just street-fight. Dismiss them if you want, but I think it could be a fatal mistake.

Yes, I think WC is a great art, and I too want to get a fight over with quickly. I just think the benefits of a conditioning program, as a supplement to martial arts training is what will take someone to a higher level. Every advantage should be taken, and besides it adds to the quality of life, IMO.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

To respond to the issue of Police Tactics being mentioned here on the forum;

First of all most hand to hand training provided to police is highly inadequate. In addition to this the yearly supplemental training is more for CYA for liability then for preparing officers to effectively employ hand to hand tactics.

Police operate on something known as a Force Continuim. This is a step by step progression of force appropriate for the situation. Of course in real life some of the steps are often bypassed as the threat level increases. Lowest on the ladder is verbal responses with Deadly Force at the other end. Basically most Police Departments and Courts agree that the officer is permitted to utilize the amount of force necessary to effect an arrest or end a dangerous situation. In most case, for simplicities sake, the rue of thumb is that the degree of force just over the resistence being encountered is permitted.

I think it is fair to say that most of us would agree that it takes a higher level of skill to effectively control a resisting opponent then to strike and harm them. to be able to effectively apply controls requires a much higher level of practice. It also requires a greater knowledge of body physiology as well. This is one of the reasons that the old "stranglehold" or "sleeper" is no longer sanctioned by most departments. Most officers did not have the skill to apply the technique effectively and injury to the subject was more common then desired.

Another factor to consider is that the general role of a Police Officer on Patrol, other than foot or bicycle types of patrol, is mostly sedentary. The officer sits and drives all day with short, if any, periods of physical activity. Added to this the fact that most police work shift work which varies from week to week and need to devote their time to appearing in court and other required training, physical conditioning and martial arts training often become secondary. Few officers feel comfortable with restraining a resisting subject and will often resort to the use of the other "tools" provided to them for this purpose. This is one of the reasons that "mace" and or "pepper spray" are now employed by many officers. It takes far less "skill" to utilize mace then to apply a come along hold or lock.

Police Officers are great examples of those on the front lines who have to confront violent criminals. Take a look at the "average" officer the next time you see one and then consider the reasons for why they may not be as conditioned as other "warriors". the typical pattern is that the officer is in good to excellent condition upon graduating from the Police Academey. For a period of time he may run or work out to keep in shape. Gradually, as time prgoresses he/she finds themselves devoting more and more time to paperwork and working various shifts, playing havoc with their sleep patterns. If they have a family then they have not only the strain of the various shifts but the mental strain of bringing the job home with them as well. Somewhere in the process of dealing with "life" most officers neglect their physical conditioning. Yet they still need to be able to do their jobs, thus the focus on other skills.

Not only do you have the officers personal concerns but you now have the departments concerns and thier insurance carriers concerns as well. Employment of physical force methods which do not fit a standardized pattern or program will be discarded in favor of those which are "approved" irregardless of actual effectiveness. If you do not believe me then ask why most states have a standardized curriculum for physical force which is a requirement of training. Then examine that "training" and consider if it is truly effective. Then consider the liability factors and you may start to understand some of the other issues an officer faces. Keep in mind that most jurisdications now limit the number of cars and parameters involved in car chases.

FWIW the PA State Police uses Boxing as the method of training for street encounters. But, it is fair to say that this department does not advise its' officers to "box" with their perps. Yet Boxing is the "approved" method of training. The reason is more on the mental conditioning than the physical methods as in boxing the officer is subjected to both taking and giving physical contact.

Just some thoughts late at night while at work watching cable TV. :cool:

Peace,

Dave

[sihing]

Dave,

Once again a good post. I wanted to be a police officer myself, my Father was one, but realized that the toll it takes on the individual was a price to high to pay. But if it wasn't for my interest in becoming a PO then I may not have ever become a student of WC in the first place. It's funny sometimes how things work out.

Just a side note, my Dad, who had no real training in MA, had lots of fights on the job (this was back in the late 50's, in a small isolated place in northern Ontario, Canada). He was virtually a one man detachment in a small community full of French loggers near the Ontario/Quebec border. One time he had to fight 5 guys at once and fortunately ended up on the good side of it all, with 2 of them eventually getting away and the remaining 3 headed for the clink....lol.

James

[Sihing73]

Hello James,

Being a PO is worth aspiring to; unfortunately there are too many who should have never taken the job, imho. My personal feeling is that Police Officers fall into one of three catagories;

1) People who genuinely want to serve the public and help others.
2) People who were bullied as children and now want a taste of power.
3) People who were bullies and are still trying to push others around.

IMHO a good officer is one who is able to solve the majority of their problems with communication.

I'll bet you have plenty of stories to tell about your father. ;)

I got into WC because the brother of the girl I was dating used Wing Chun to teach me a lesson. At the time I was practicing Judo and thought I was pretty tough. He put me in my place, plus his sister was hot :D (as a side note I named one of my daughters after her, Meiko. Now my wife won't let me pick out anymore girls names :rolleyes: )

Peace,

Dave

[sihing]

Originally posted by Sihing73
Hello James,

Being a PO is worth aspiring to; unfortunately there are too many who should have never taken the job, imho. My personal feeling is that Police Officers fall into one of three catagories;

1) People who genuinely want to serve the public and help others.
2) People who were bullied as children and now want a taste of power.
3) People who were bullies and are still trying to push others around.

IMHO a good officer is one who is able to solve the majority of their problems with communication.

I'll bet you have plenty of stories to tell about your father. ;)

I got into WC because the brother of the girl I was dating used Wing Chun to teach me a lesson. At the time I was practicing Judo and thought I was pretty tough. He put me in my place, plus his sister was hot :D (as a side note I named one of my daughters after her, Meiko. Now my wife won't let me pick out anymore girls names :rolleyes: )

Peace,

Dave
LOL, funny Dave. Yah, I have lots of stories but my Father is 81 and I'm only 36, so he is really old school compared to me, lol, like the old story of walking up hill in 10' feet of snow in bare feet type old school, lol again..but I respect him a great deal for the person he is and what he stood for. He even enlisted in the Canadian Navy a year before he was legally eligible for WW2, a real Man's man, but I guess most of us look up to our Father's that way, which is the way it should be.

Also I totally agree with your listed reasons of why people join the PO service. I had a student that eventually join the local force where I'm from, and he changed quite a bit after he became a police officer, power tripping and using his power for alternative reasons, very unfortunate. My Father was one of the ones under #1), someone that wanted to help others and do what's right.

James

[Vajramusti]

Dave-sihing 73 says:

My personal feeling is that Police Officers fall into one of three catagories;

1) People who genuinely want to serve the public and help others.

((Met a few -have known a few))

2) People who were bullied as children and now want a taste of power.
3) People who were bullies and are still trying to push others around.

((In some places 2 and 3 areunfortunately appear to be more numerous than one- depending on who what when etc.

Given changes in society- we expect officers to deal with problems that they are not educated and trained for--
etnic group relations, domestic problems etc. Many social problems are beyond their capacity to handle.

Putting resources into community building is a better but unfortunately not very saleable idea to short run politicians who do the funding and set the policies, Funding often goes into the latest instruments of overwhelming force.

BTW ina previous reincarnation- I have taught courses at a urban police academy and was ona selection board for the police chief of a major city))

[Matrix]

Joy,

Can we please stay on topic....................
I think we were talking about pecan pie, with ice cream, right? :D

[SAAMAG]

naw it's cool, this is how discussion forums go...just as in real converstations, things evolve...

It's just too bad people's ideas about the realities of fighting don't evolve as easily.

[chisauking]

KF (Dale): It takes less than a minute of hard effort to deplete your anaerobic reserves if you are not conditioned. You will also have severely limited lactic acid buffering capabilities. After this happens, your body will be flooded with lactic acid and you will be severely compromised in terms of your ability to perform any longer at a high level.

Chisauking: First of all, I would like to clarify a point. I'm not talking about club fighting or sparring between friends. I'm talking about actual street fighting, with no rules.

Many things can prevent us from functioning properly in any particular events. For example, when we have to make a speech in front of a large crowd for the first time, we tend not to flow smoothly. Or, when a car is coming towards us very quicky, some people can't move their legs to get out of the path of the incoming car. In both the examples that I'd given, it wasn't the conditioning of the person in question that let them down. They frozed maybe because they had experienced a massive adranaline dump. And so it's the same with fights. Any genuine martial artist would be more than conditioned to last the distance of any REAL fight because 99.9% of all real fights doesn't last for more than 2-minutes. In a real fight, it isn't the conditioning that's the real deciding factor, but the conditioning of your 'fighting mind'. If you ever meet a high calibre fighter, I can assure you that they would posess a calm, cool, collective mind. They wouldn't expand any unnecessary energy, and the only thing they would be focused on is to give you a bashing.

Fighters on this forum would know what I'm talking about. The more fights you have, the more calm you will be in future fights. Accumulation of experiance, my friend, to hone your 'fighting mind'

[Ultimatewingchun]

"In a real fight, it isn't the conditioning that's the real deciding factor, but the conditioning of your 'fighting mind'...." (chisauking)

First of all - both are important. Extemely important. But as 7Star already pointed out....if two fighters are of relatively equal skill (and relatively equal "fighting mind" - as you call it)...and there is no great disparity in size...

But one is more conditioned than the other...

then he's the one who wins.

So conditioning can most definitely be the deciding factor in a fight. It happens frequently.

[sihing]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
First of all - both are important. Extemely important. But as 7Star already pointed out....if two fighters are of relatively equal skill (and relatively equal "fighting mind" - as you call it)...and there is no great disparity in size...

But one is more conditioned than the other...

then he's the one who wins.

So conditioning can most definitely be the deciding factor in a fight. It happens frequently.

And, and, and. You people keep adding on more and more what if's. What if you opponent has a gun, knife, grenade, uzzi, ten friends with UFC finals experience, and on and on...

There's so many factors. That person you keep referring to that is just as skilled but more conditioned may be drunk? Or emotional distracted because his girlfriend just left him or someone in his family has recently died. Anything could be happening.

I agree totally with Dave(Sihing73) and chisauking's comments thus far, their right on the money with their posts and thoughts. Get it over with quick and use surprise as one of your tools/strategies.

James

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by chisauking
Fighters on this forum would know what I'm talking about. The more fights you have, the more calm you will be in future fights. Accumulation of experiance, my friend, to hone your 'fighting mind' Exactly... that's why the experience of fighting is so important. Obviously, having a wide variety of experiences in actual real life confrontations is the best thing to have. Barring that, and assuming you are trying to stay out of trouble on the streets, your second best experience of this type is competing against someone you don't know who is trying to take you out in some kind of competitive event. Most people who never do this and only work against their training partners in the security of their school will usually get the overwhelming adrenaline dump if they ever get into a real confrontation.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by sihing
And, and, and. You people keep adding on more and more what if's. What if you opponent has a gun, knife, grenade, uzzi, ten friends with UFC finals experience, and on and on... The more things your opponent brings to the confrontation, the better chance he has. The more things you bring (conditioning being just one of them), the better chance you have.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by sihing
There's so many factors. That person you keep referring to that is just as skilled but more conditioned may be drunk? James,

The more I look at it, the more I don't understand what the fuss is about. I think everyone is saying pretty much the same thing. Conditioning becomes more important as skill levels approach equivalent levels.

Yes there are many factors.
Some you can control, and others you just have to deal with at that point in time.

Controlable Factors include, Skill, Mental and Physical conditioning.
Work on each one of them to reach the highest level possible.
I think that some people just want to emphasize one factor more than others. If I had to choose one, it would be skill - no doubt. However, I don't have to choose just one. I can work on all three.

It's like the three-legged stool. For comfort, all legs should be about the same length. Lose one leg and you fall on your @ss. ;)

[Knifefighter]

One of the ways to tell whether or not a system teaches effective fighting or not is the conditioning level of its participants.

Any system of fighting that doesn't substantially increase your conditioning as part of the actual training will not be an effective fighting system.

BJJ, wrestling, boxing, Muay Thai, Sambo, judo... all are recognized as being effective methods for fighting and each significantly improves conditioning as a by product of the training.

The myth of "skill without conditioning" is just theoretical pretentious nerd blather.

[Ultimatewingchun]

James:

It's you who's making this a lot more complicated than it has to be.

How many times have you seen a pro boxing match wherein both fighters were highly skilled, both were pretty much the same height and weight, both had a very strong will-to-win...

but since one of them was better conditioned...

he knocked out his opponent in one of the later rounds???

(The other guy ran out of gas).

Very simple...isn't it?

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Vankuen
naw it's cool, this is how discussion forums go...just as in real converstations, things evolve... Van,
I was just joking with the "stay on topic" comment. Actually, I'm pleasantly surprised at how well this thread has stayed on course. :cool:

[SAAMAG]

"The myth of "skill without conditioning" is just theoretical pretentious nerd blather."

That's pretty fuggin funny!

[sihing]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
James:

It's you who's making this a lot more complicated than it has to be.

How many times have you seen a pro boxing match wherein both fighters were highly skilled, both were pretty much the same height and weight, both had a very strong will-to-win...

but since one of them was better conditioned...

he knocked out his opponent in one of the later rounds???

(The other guy ran out of gas).

Very simple...isn't it?

Thanks for educating me Victor.....

If only life was that simple.

JR

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sihing
Gamble, lol... Out of 16yrs in training in this stuff, teaching this stuff, I can count on both hands how many people that I've meet with previous experience or knowledge of the art, from people I've met personally or from my experience as a teacher. If the odds are 200,000 to 1 in favor of not meeting someone that has WC experience on the street I would say that is not gambling. You guys use that line all the time, try another one...



knife posted a very valid one - aggressive, well conditioned athletes, even untrained - like an nfl player.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
It takes less than a minute of hard effort to deplete your anaerobic reserves if you are not conditioned. You will also have severely limited lactic acid buffering capabilities. After this happens, your body will be flooded with lactic acid and you will be severely compromised in terms of your ability to perform any longer at a high level.

Bingo. It seems that not everyone realizes that though - some think the adrenaline rush will keep them going endlessly.