Hey I have a history question!

[Ernie]

This goes out to Hendrik and the rest of you bookworms =)

In what era, time frame, year what ever

Would you say there is actual proof of wing Chun’s effectiveness as a combative martial art

And effeintcy I mean not just one person but were the training methods we producing a high quality of fighters

Now I ‘m looking for factual proof not stories

And again not just one great individual but more over a the general quality of the students was at a all time high

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Ernie
This goes out to Hendrik and the rest of you bookworms =)

In what era, time frame, year what ever

Would you say there is actual proof of wing Chun’s effectiveness as a combative martial art

And effeintcy I mean not just one person but were the training methods we producing a high quality of fighters

Now I ‘m looking for factual proof not stories

And again not just one great individual but more over a the general quality of the students was at a all time high


Didnt you ask Gary Lam this question before you join that WCK sytle? :D


otherwise, it is too late. You are on board the Pilate ship! Sold! Hehehehe



BTW, I am not a Bookworms because I dont read that much.
I fly to Taiwan, I fly to China. I fly to SEA, I fly to Japan....and fly down to LA....

In a compliance manner I let people shock me, take me down, hit me. Chi Me..... all sort of things which they call it Wing Chun or Weng Chun or BJJ.... Or Shao Lin..... I must be a genee(sp) pig instead of a worm. :D

[Ernie]

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
Didnt you ask this question to Gary Lam before you join that WCK club?
otherwise, it is too late. You are on board the Pilate ship! Sold! Hehehehe

no i got infront of Gary and he shut me down , he doesn't care much for history either you can use the skill or your just running your mouth is his take on it

but really i'm trying to understand and asking a honest question

when do you think [ with proven facts ] was the highest quality of WCK and why ?

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Ernie


but really i'm trying to understand and asking a honest question

when do you think [ with proven facts ] was the highest quality of WCK and why ?



I would let VTM answer this one.


Since I am a kyokushin. :D and I love K1. and you dont like Mas Oyama. andy hug.....hahaha

[Ernie]

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
I would let VTM answer this one.

Since I am a kyokushin. :D and I love K1.

it's only your personal view and why they can not answer for you

really , the reason i ask is for research

everyone has a take on lineage or energy or history right

but i look for results

so i wonder in what time frame was WCK having it's best results over all not just for one individual and what proof is there

also who were they fighting , what were the results based on

this would point at when what were enegine and training methods produced some real results

instead of just searching everything pin point it to it glory days :D

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Ernie
it's only your personal view and why they can not answer for you

really , the reason i ask is for research




I have not tested the Kyokushin low sweep enough to have any reliable data. :D

not tested enough the Muay Thai close body elbowing too...


so no data.


But I know I cant take an Inch JIng Power Join strike from the old White Crane of Taiwan and the shock of the old Yee Chuan from the Beijing. will cause me Too much damage accompliance or not.


glory day? those old white crane, old Yee chuan, kyokushin guys or Muay thai guys are still alive. what glory day?:D

[yellowpikachu]

It would be nice to have the old White Crane's Inch Jing Join Power, Old Yee Chuan's Shock. Kyokushin's low sweep. Muay Thai's Elbowing...


What a great combination in my dream world.

Is that WCK? I dont knoowww. :D

[Ernie]

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
I have not tested the Kyokushin low sweep enough to have any reliable data. :D

not tested enough the Muay Thai close body elbowing too...


so no data.


But I know I cant take an Inch JIng Power Join strike from the old White Crane of Taiwan and the shock of the old Yee Chuan from the Beijing. will cause me Too much damage


glory day? those old white crane, old Yee chuan, kyokushin guys or Muay thai guys are still alive. what glory day?:D


ok i hear what your saying but were are the results , you said old white crane guys who and what results ,training methods , testing did this group accomplish ?

as for the thai guys perfect example there training methods and results are obvious and still improving every year adding in boxing hands and footwork and training methods and tools

but what of WCK ?

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Ernie


as for the thai guys perfect example there training methods and results are obvious and still improving every year adding in boxing hands and footwork and training methods and tools

but what of WCK ?


oh you forget Kyokushin too :D

As for WCK, you train more then me since I am a bookworm. hehehe
so, what of WCK?

[Ernie]

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
oh you forget Kyokushin too :D

As for WCK, you train more then me since I am a bookworm. hehehe
so, what of WCK?

hey i saw fighter in the wind interesting story . but the training methods lacked skill just hard core the body and ability to take pain

alot of human punching bags out there

;)


K-1 boxing , thai , BJJ , and so on

have clear and obvious methods for producing results , there is no mystery or special historical figure

they get better every year

i'm not concerned with those arts i have trained in them and seen the methods and results first hand

no magic just hard work


but i keep hearing people argue about this or that time or person or method in wing chun

so i simply asked when do you think WCK was or is at it's prime and what facts are there to prove it

so we can focus in on those training methods and measure the results

not a hard question

for me it would have to be in the 1940's up until 1970

seemed like people out of Yip's camp were out fighting and making a name for themselves

now there training methods and the level of people the fought need to be taken into account

this information can be proven on old film and news paper articles

but i'm not a history dude so i never bothered to look furthur

just thought i would ask the history people that's all didn't think it would be such a hard question to answer

[planetwc]

The era of Wing Chun was probably the late 50's and early 60's.
The place was Hong Kong.

Why? Because a lot of the students were young punks who would then go out on the street and fight.

Many such as Wong Shun Leung, William Cheung and Bruce Lee would go out looking to fight other styles. In the early 50's guys like Leung Sheung and Lok Yiu would go out and fight as well, as would their students.

Where is the problem in all of this?
Well, what was the quality level of their opponents?

Probably pretty poor.

What happened when Wing Chun faced off with Muay Thai back then?
Most of the WC guys were used to the out of shape, poorly trained HK guys they fought and not fighters who were well conditioned and used to taking on punishment. So they got their @sses handed to them.

Just look at the footage of the "rooftop" fights that is available. Look at the fight between the taiji guy and the white crane guy. Just embarassing.

The percentages of high caliber fighters vs amatuers was probably out of whack.

That said, given the principles behind Wing Chun and it's training approach--at the time--it gave the WCK guys the advantage of being able to go in on the centerline and pound away at the flowery style guys. The training approach in chi sao coupled with chain punching seemed to give the WC teenagers the advantage over guys who trained in less effective arts.

The Wing Chun guys would mix it up with the White Crane and Choy Lay Fut folks quite a bit. But how many of any of the styles in Hong Kong had what we would consider today to be elite world class fighters vs the general populace?

Look at the fact that most of the men learning Wing Chun were bus drivers, trolley drivers and restaurant workers. That means they DID have to work for a living and WCK was a hobby. The kids learning WC were just that kids.

Guys who are really good at fighting tend to be aggressive and fight a lot. It is part of their mindset and how they lived their life--picking fights with people, getting beat down and dealing out beatdowns. The more the place where training was hard and brutal, the more likely they could fight. right?

[Ernie]

Thank you David ,
so this makes sense why people will reach back into the past and latch on to a story rather then any current or semi recent event

an old story has the air of magic and mystery and the bluff can not be called

were as anything in provable history is not so special hmm

i get the same impression from the video i have seen of old masters they suck

this leads me to believe alot of the shoalin shaw brothers hype has caused mass brain washing ;)

[Ultimatewingchun]

Ernie:

In answer to your original post on this thread...

In the 1950's there were plenty of eye witnesses to the successful fights of William Cheung, Wong Shun Leung, Bruce Lee, and a few others...in the 1960's-early 1970's....mostly Bruce - but also some fights of the other two I mentioned....as well as Duncan Leung (here in NYC)...have heard some things about people like Victor Kan (from the 50's and 60's)...have heard about Gary Lam...

And there has been some talk of people witnesssing a few of Yip Man's fights way back in the day...(and the same for Yuan Kay San)...

but as to past centuries and what's going on lately?

It's all hearsay. (Which is not to say that it hasn't happened....but not enough people have come forward to bear witness to the point where we can DEFINITELY say this or that about so-and-so).

SO THEREFORE ALL ATTEMPTS TO CONTINUE LIVING IN THE PAST (ESPECIALLY PAST CENTURIES)...

is foolhardy at best - and escapist at worst.

It really seems as though the more some people want to push forward into today's martial arts world - with a view toward the future of Wing Chun...the more some other people want to go EVEN FURTHER BACK IN TIME (ie. - the 1600's)...looking for answers, training methods, etc.

That's why I have such a problem with about 99% of Hendrik's posts, for example.

It's a waste of valuable time in the here and now.

Even reading them (and responding to them) is a waste, imo.

[yellowpikachu]

David,


as I heard from the old timers.

A person who was always humble but having great skill and not in the spotlight much is WCK sifu Jiu Wan. the sifu of the shaw's brother martial art star Ti Lung.

This person was very very well respected in every part of the society including where fighting for life was carried out to solve conflict.

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
It really seems as though the more some people want to push forward into today's martial arts world - with a view toward the future of Wing Chun...the more some other people want to go EVEN FURTHER BACK IN TIME (ie. - the 1600's)...looking for answers, training methods, etc.

That's why I have such a problem with about 99% of Hendrik's posts, for example.

It's a waste of valuable time in the here and now.

Even reading them (and responding to them) is a waste, imo.



there is no conflict of examine what is happening in the past and to push forward.

There is no conflict of identify what we "push" to see if we "push" the thing we want to push. or we "push" whatever we want to "push" blindly.

There is no conflict of studying how indian makes smoke for communication and studying modern digital signal processing.


Waste of valuable time is relative.

Doing thing right and Doing the right thing is obviously different.

But everything is embrace and acceptable.

[old jong]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun


That's why I have such a problem with about 99% of Hendrik's posts, for example.

It's a waste of valuable time in the here and now.

Even reading them (and responding to them) is a waste, imo.

Nobody is forcing you Victor!

[Ultimatewingchun]

Nobody is forcing me....

but when the man starts thread-after-thread....and sometimes 4 or 5 threads going simultaneously....and VERY LONG post-after-post...

and 99% of it amounts to a giant hill-of-beans...with absolutely no practical value whatsoever...

attempting to clog up the space with the same-old...same-old...

and I do mean "OLD"...

Well...whatever criticism he gets for it - he deserves to get!

It's a giant filibuster - trying to hold back the inevitable march into the future.

And it's annoying.

So there!!!

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Nobody is forcing me....

but when the man starts thread-after-thread....and sometimes 4 or 5 threads going simultaneously....and VERY LONG post-after-post...

and 99% of it amounts to a giant hill-of-beans...with absolutely no practical value whatsoever...

attempting to clog up the space with the same-old...same-old...

and I do mean "OLD"...

Well...whatever criticism he gets for it - he deserves to get!

It's a giant filibuster - trying to hold back the inevitable march into the future.

And it's annoying.

So there!!!



if you can ignore the bill board in the subway or the big giant wide screen TV advertisment in NYC.

Then you can ignore me. :D


I sure deserve all the critics.

But, Ernie starts this discussion asking me question bro! :D

Ernie bro, see you better stop this HEHEHEHEHE!

[old jong]

It's simple!....You don't like a thread?...Keep out of it.It is futile to argue just for the sake of arguing or worse!...Simply because you don't like the guy.There is a lot of this going on lately.

Also,opinions on the value of subjects is always based on personal matters. Showing a little respect is not so hard to do.

[Ernie]

i ask not to cause problems but to be clear about why people hunt ghost .

from what i have heard so far WCK showed it's value only in the last 60 years

which means it evolved and was pressure tested by a larger amount of people then just one or two historical figures

it had to prove itself

so if one wants to focus on effecient results that would be a great research starting point

older versions didn't make a splash and still don't seem to

so why bother


hey jong what's your take on WCK's glory days

[old jong]

WCK glory days?...Do you mean the Hong Kong rooftops fights?...;)
IMHHHHO!...Young guys with a few basic Wing Chun skills.The kind you get from a short time in the art.
IMO (again!) you can get a better feel for the art's real value by feeling the skill of Guys like your Sifu or others in the same bracket.These kind of guys don't need to turn their art and skills into sideshows to gain interest from others.There is also a very real tendency to be even more modest as real skill grows.

[Ernie]

Originally posted by old jong
WCK glory days?...Do you mean the Hong Kong rooftops fights?...;)
IMHHHHO!...Young guys with a few basic Wing Chun skills.The kind you get from a short time in the art.
IMO (again!) you can get a better feel for the art's real value by feeling the skill of Guys like your Sifu or others in the same bracket.These kind of guys don't need to turn their art and skills into sideshows to gain interest from others.There is also a very real tendency to be even more modest as real skill grows.

well lets look at these humble guys that don't like to show

how do we really know that what consider there skill will really hold up

and how much of that skill is based on there training methods

or there individual abilities

i look at my Sifu and any one else with the same filter
just because my Sifu shows [ skill ]
i have to ask myself well was it his WC training under WSL
or was it his fighting experience

was it his coaching experience

knowledge he gained from WSL or experience he gained from going over to thai land and training with the thais ?

is he just a natural fighter that happened upon WC

or was it a mix of ingredients from above

if so what were the benificial training methods ?

now i have asked him all these questions and many more
everything must be proven to me and i don't do drills or anything unless i see a direct connection to fighting skill or attribute development for fighting skill

so you see i will research my source and if i can research the training methods that my source first learned

look for the links that produced the results

i also am very interested in researching other peoples training methods that produced good results

so when i say the glory days of WCK i'm just trying pin point the most productive period

you see things change and evolve and everything has it's time when all the right elements are there to make it shine

we saw this with Karate in the 60's . Thai in the 70-now , BJJ in the last 20 or so years , and MMA now

there is a time when everything lines up the right interest the right venue
and things get popular

when something gets popular it is then exposed and it's good and bad will be naked for all to see [ no more stories to hide behind , no shaw brother brain washed clones ]

so when was WCK every really exposed and what were the results ?

[Kevin Bell]

Ernie,

Was'nt it WSL that said "if you can show me something better than what i do now i want to know about it and make use of it"

This to me show's me the openmindedness and progressiveness of the man.

History wise i only look back as far as WSL to be honest. At this moment in time i've got no interest in anything further back in the past.

With reference to Gary. My point of view. I got to respect him (though i've never met him) because despite being taught VT from WSL he still went out there, still put it on the line, tested what he was taught and didnt rest on the achievements of someone else. This key attribute was probably the greatest thing WSL ever taught him. Better than any "drill" concept or technique or "sparring" but facing someone who wanted to remove his head from his shoulders. The trouble is these days you fight you run the risk of getting into trouble with the law.It's a paradox right? You wanna know it works? You test it under real pressure simple as that! but be wary of getting a criminal record. Fight to find the answer. Evolution i dont hark back to the past or train like im gonna recieve ettiquette and understanding from sychotic assailent. Nor do i go under the belief that im not gonna get hit. I accept it as inevitable due to the close quater nature of VT. Fighting is a nasty horrible business. I dont assume either that i'm gonna pull off the perfect Tan Sau if it happens great but i doubt it mate.There aint gonna be another WSL there aint gonna be another Gary. You're doing a darn fine job at being yourself but then you know by my post non of this is aimed at you bro and that i know you know all this already...

Only by putting yourself in danger should one want to are you gonna know truely if you're VT works. Hell someone can have the perfect Tan but when he gets a sycho screaming in his face that he's gonna rip his ****ing head off and it all goes to pot and the Tan's out the window then that persons failed totallly...

Kev

[old jong]

If you would have been one of Jesus disciple,you would surely have been the one who putted his finger in Jesus holes!...(The holes in his hands and side that is!...) ;) :D

[Ernie]

Originally posted by old jong
If you would have been one of Jesus disciple,you would surely have been the one who putted his finger in Jesus holes!...(The holes in his hands and side that is!...) ;) :D

i only ask for proof :D

if jesus was claiming a fighting skill i would be the first to fire a jab at him or a kick to the nutts

just to see what would happen

but he was about religion and that needs faith can't test that the same way

[old jong]

You forget all his miracles!...:)

[Ernie]

Originally posted by old jong
You forget all his miracles!...:)

i know many wing chun people keep waiting for one :cool:

[PaulH]

Why wait for a miracle? Everythings that live are miracles. =)

[canglong]

Hey I have a history question! The answer to any good history question only leads to another question the sum of those questions and answers is knowledge. 1 history question and 1 history answer get a person nowhere.

[yellowpikachu]

Try this


http://mantis.org.uk/default.asp?content=clips


check into the visual and video clip. scrow down to the-----


Si Gung Ip Chee Keung - Testicle Retraction ( this is suitable for family viewing!)


under the:

Clips from TV
Chris Crudelli was granted an interview and demonstration by Sigung Ip Chee Keung for the BBC3 programme "Mind, Body and Kick Ass Moves". If you missed it, here are a few excerpts to whet your appetite: -

Click here to visit the Mind, Body and Kick Ass Moves site and here to see if the BBC is selling the videos/DVDs of the series.

Si Tai Gung Ip Shui

Si Gung Ip Chee Keung - Saam Bo Gin

Si Gung Ip Chee Keung - Testicle Retraction ( this is suitable for family viewing!)

Chy Sao

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
I would let VTM answer this one.


Since I am a kyokushin. :D and I love K1. and you dont like Mas Oyama. andy hug.....hahaha
Then you need to see, "Fighter In The Wind"
A Korean movie about the life of Mas Oyama
PR

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Then you need to see, "Fighter In The Wind"
A Korean movie about the life of Mas Oyama
PR

Phil,

Where do you get it?

I just watch the http://www.fandango.com/movie_page.asp?mv=85761&source=tbo_l
yesterday.

[Ernie]

Originally posted by canglong
The answer to any good history question only leads to another question the sum of those questions and answers is knowledge. 1 history question and 1 history answer get a person nowhere.


but i only have one good question when was WCK at it's peak !

[KPM]

Ernie wrote:
from what i have heard so far WCK showed it's value only in the last 60 years

---But prior to that you are talking about a time where WCK was only in China and there was little to no TV, martial arts magazines to do articles, and internet discussion forums. How would you expect Leung Jan's exploits in China during the late 1800's to be documented? You also want evidence of multiple players and not just an individual, but this was a time when WCK was very private and did not have many practicioners. You are asking a question that you know pretty darn well that there isn't going to be a good answer to. KPM

which means it evolved and was pressure tested by a larger amount of people then just one or two historical figures
it had to prove itself

---But often that "proof" would center around those one or two historical figures that actually where documented at the time....like Leung Jan or Yuen Kay Shan. And they were documented because of multiple exploits and high skill. There may have been others in their lineages producing results that didn't get documented simply because there was not a good mechanism for doing so. Again, you are asking for a large sampling from a relatively small group of individuals during an era of history when such things were not documented well. KPM

older versions didn't make a splash and still don't seem to
so why bother

---Older versions did make a splash, otherwise the newer versions wouldn't still be around. They just didn't make the kind of "splash" you seem to be looking for. KPM

Keith

[KPM]

Originally posted by Ernie
but i only have one good question when was WCK at it's peak !


---How do we determine that? How do we judge "peak"? Is it the most number of players worldwide? Then that would be right now! Is it the most variations being practiced? Then that would also be right now! Is it the most number of documented skilled fighters? Then that may very likely be right now as well! But if it means rather the most efficient or technically advanced version, or when it was most widely used in "real" fights, then that will be hard to determine. Some have pointed back to the Hong Kong days of the 50's and 60's. But keep in mind that we know very little of WCK's background and history before that. Heck...Yip Man doesn't seem to have bothered telling most of his students during that era that there was even different WCK systems in Hong Kong at that time....let alone back in China! They thought Yip Man was the cat's axx! Its only in very recent years that the fact that there are several versions of WCK other than Yip Man's has become public knowledge in the west. Wong Wah Bo may have had other students that kicked butt all up and down the southern coast of China that we know nothing about. So it is not a simple question that you ask.

Keith

[Ernie]

Keith,
first of i'm not into hero worship or lineage stuff , so i'm not trying prove anything just looking and asking

by your own admission LJ or anyone of that time or before , may or may not have been any good ?

no real proof ,and good at fighting who and how good were they
just some hungy farmers or unskilled guys ? we have even seen footage of so called master in the 40's and thy really looked bad

so the quality might be more hype then reality

no way to prove it !

now lets say LJ or any other single person of that or earlier time was [ big leap of faith here ]

well were is the results on the student base , was the system of teaching producing results ?

sounds like things were so much on a tiny scale back then and there is so little real proof that people seem to romantisize the story over the reality

there doesn't seem to be any WCK super power that cleary seperates or stands out as a productive over all system [ for the masses vs just one guy ]

you see i'm not looking for one guy but a time when the system was producing recordable results on a group

this would be benifical to research

unless something is exposed to the masses then it never really gets tested and alot of hype can come out

not saying this is or is not the case with LJ

just looking at things in a logical way

so far 1950's and up look like the most exposed and tested time frame

[Ernie]

Originally posted by KPM
---How do we determine that? How do we judge "peak"? Is it the most number of players worldwide? Then that would be right now! Is it the most variations being practiced? Then that would also be right now! Is it the most number of documented skilled fighters? Then that may very likely be right now as well! But if it means rather the most efficient or technically advanced version, or when it was most widely used in "real" fights, then that will be hard to determine. Some have pointed back to the Hong Kong days of the 50's and 60's. But keep in mind that we know very little of WCK's background and history before that. Heck...Yip Man doesn't seem to have bothered telling most of his students during that era that there was even different WCK systems in Hong Kong at that time....let alone back in China! They thought Yip Man was the cat's axx! Its only in very recent years that the fact that there are several versions of WCK other than Yip Man's has become public knowledge in the west. Wong Wah Bo may have had other students that kicked butt all up and down the southern coast of China that we know nothing about. So it is not a simple question that you ask.

Keith

i know it's not a simple question :D
that's why i asked , i see people mouth boxing all the time about this or that era or person
so i said cool lets look for impact and results and proof

suddenly not to much to go on ;)

people speak on inch and jing and reeling and so on great i'm all for investigating and learning

so if that was such a set of dominate skills from back in the day then they should have made a huge splash and a system of producing those results and people would have trained and refined and expanded ,tested , used such skills

then people hold out this skill set like the holy grail saying how it is lost and only a few select few have the magic pixy dust

and of course those special few don't go out and make an impact in the world because there to humble

non of it makes any logical sense just stories and people wanting to be special


all the skills are in use today they just don't quite make such a big impact in the modern world

don't really set people far ahead in any way shape or form

so then people reach back to magic story land and say no see this or that person can walk on water

because the legend is bigger then the facts

so being logical and not really caring about any particular hero

i asked a hard question :D

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Ern!


The question you are asking is not that difficult to answer IMO.

Lets start from the early days and work forward ok? Keep in mind that some of the stuff Kieth says has a lot of truth in it. Modern days we hear a lot more about a lot of stuff as we have the net and this or that but we can go back and see how effective this art is and has been!

Red Boat days (early mid 1800's):

Wong Wah Bo, Leung Yee Tai, Yik Kam, etc. etc.

The first generation guys kicked everyones ass and fought with Lee Man against Ching. The thing is not many had knowledge of the art but the ones who did dominated!

Next Generation mid to later 1800's):

Leung Jan, Fok Bo Chuen, Cho etc. etc.

Still a small ammount of people with the art and these guys carried the torche and kicked loads and loads of ass. Leung Jan had 100's of fights. Books and movies were written about his exploits. Fok Bo Chuen was a marshal and had loads of real fights. Cho's were also kicking ass!

Next generation late 1800's to early 1900's:

Chan Wah Shun, Wong Wah Sam, Cho's, Yuen Kay San etc etc.

WCK is still a private art but getting a bit more public. The above guys were still the dominating fighters of their time. Many not wanting public attention but still open for test of skill. Much was written about Chan and Yuen etc..

Next generation early 1900's-mid 1900's:

Chan family wins pole fighting competition of 7 provinces. Fung's are fighting Dragon and other people. Sum Nung fighting many. Cho's still carrying on the fighting art tradition. Mai Gei Wong gains a high reputation in Pearl River region. etc. etc.. WCK is getting more popular now but these early masters were still rather private only wanting to pass on their art and carry on its legacy!

Next generation is 1950's onward;

Sum Nung's boys like Pang Chow and others still kicking ass. Fung's still kicking ass. Cho's still kicking ass. Yip Man opens a school and his boys go out and fight with others and still carry on the good name for WCK. At this point in time WCK is getting very popular thanks to YM going public and Bruce Lee etc..

Now a days you still have some good guys from YM, SN, Fung's Cho's etc.. that are top fighters. I personally dont think because there are millions of people doing WCK that now is the pinacle of WCK. Why? Out of the millions and millions of people doing WCK how many are the best of the best? A small handfull. Thats how its always been. So, with all these millions of WCK out there today I think WCK has declined versus progressed! Sorry if that offends everyone but thats just my opinion! Back in the day they passed on the art and the % of good to bad was much much much higher than it is today. Quality control has gone out the window and IMO its because WCK is not a mass production art and more of something that needs to be taught in a one on one setting with a lot of supervision.


Just some thoughts!



Regards,

[Ernie]

cool Jim

thank you

now the big question from what i have seen of the old masters
the pretty much suck

so how good was the comp ?

you here stories about this or that ''master''

but when ever you see them in action , they only look good when the set the parameters of the game [ demo power only ]

so when you say quality control

is there really any way to prove there was any quality in the first place

i could beat up 1000 librarians ;)

so perhaps WCK was good then against scrubs , farmers , peasents , and martial art business people

and this could be why it is weak now were it has to deal with a more fight educated world
no more secrets just put up or shut skill

what are your thoughts

[Vajramusti]

i know it's not a simple question

((Not a well formulated one.Wing chun is not for mass development-neither are several important chinese martial arts.
So one has to become a bit of a book worm and try to find out about some key great achievements and separate what Hendrik call technical history from general history.

In taji- what was sill reeling really about- what did Chen wanting
or later Chen Fake mean by it- what are the technical issues involved.... how did the transmission of knowledge break down- where was it transmitted. Same for wing chun-what was leung Jan about or Ip man. How was the center line really conceived- in detail. And very short explosive power. How was the knowledge transmitted in that non mass media settings. What breakdowns occured and is it transmitted at all.

In ANY field- historical questions do not interest most people.Then there are folks who only practice, some are more theorists and some blend those things in their own way.Each kind of endeavor and excelling in the chosen path involves expenditure of quality time and energy.

Hendrik has put in quality time and energy into understanding the history part. I dont agree with him on some technical things(see chi sao/luk sao thread) but I dont label hima book worm or clown. he is far removed from my lineage- but that matters or not.
I read- learn some things--- dont accept other things and move on-a reasonable dialogue process and try hard not to pay attention to the put downs.))



that's why i asked , i see people mouth boxing all the time

((The self proclaimed fighters on the list have done more than their share of mouth boxing and creating a culture of derision
and know nothingness in this forum))


so i said cool lets look for impact and results and proof


((two kinds of proof--1, result s of experimentation now. 2, reasonable inferences from decent historical inquiry.

The greats of the past wont come back to help with #1. Reasonable inferences and experimentaion can help with #2.

FWIW- the wing chun world is in overall bad shape due to it's rapid spread. But the greatest possibilities in wing chun could be now- if (big if) some good people learn somethings from the technical history and practice, test , apply and make their own judgements on effectiveness.)))

[Ernie]

Joy
thank for your response

first i have nothing against hendrik
i think he is nuts but so am i :)

second proof is proof
we are not time dating bones this is combat

so to look into the past that can not be verified beyond a story
is not how one plans there skill development

funny how all other combative arts improve every year since they train foreward not in reverse

for all the talk of looking back and not for masses

there not any one making much of an impact in the shut up and prove world of today

since we can not measure the level of skill of the past guys nor there opponents

it's a fantasy

sure you can gain inspiration and all that but that's it

of course if you never come out of your bubble you can create what ever micro verse you wish to live in and live the fantasy all you want

but that fantasy should not be imposed as proof

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey whazzzup!!
It's been awhile since I posted so I might as well get back in the game.

Ernie,
Maybe the proof is in the pudding.
By that I mean, we've all seen footage where people look bad and we've seen stuff where people look good. The good stuff is more than likely a setup or demo of some sort.
But the real test I think is when you're on the receiving end, like you did with Gary.

I've seen some footage of my Sigung where if I'd do something like he did, I'd get corrected so if you were to look at the footage people may have differing opinions but I'll tell you when you're on the receiving end it's a whole other ball game.
We had a guy in our class who had a black sash at the time (assistant instructor level) and he went to the pan am (sp?) games in Brazil for power lifting. This guy was a big strong dude with an acceptable level of ving tsun.
My Sigung man handled him with one hand as he talked to the class.

I don't know.

Happy new year and all that crap
:eek:

J

[Ernie]

Originally posted by Jeff Bussey
Hey whazzzup!!
It's been awhile since I posted so I might as well get back in the game.

Ernie,
Maybe the proof is in the pudding.
By that I mean, we've all seen footage where people look bad and we've seen stuff where people look good. The good stuff is more than likely a setup or demo of some sort.
:eek:

J


hey Jeff :D

i have yet to see any good stuff from back in the day , the videos i saw were of guys really fighting and it was sick any 2 year boxer would have handed these guys there heads

distance timing balance footowork non of this exisited

it's what happens when man copies a animal or insect and then try's to fight ;)

yet get any to good seasonsed fighters together and you see skill

so i really have my doubts about the ''old masters''

people love to fantasize insert shaw brothers brainwash v chip please :D

[Jeff Bussey]

it's what happens when man copies a animal or insect and then try's to fight
That's why I imitate the c0ckroach cause I ain't going no where.
Obviously kidding.
Or am I?

Anyways, my samples just came in so I'll try and get back soon

[Jim Roselando]

Hey E,


cool Jim

thank you

:)

now the big question from what i have seen of the old masters
the pretty much suck

Like who? hehehe Placing on the spot now man! hehehe I have also been disappointed with some of the footage of many of the greats of their time but also have been impressed with some of the old timers and new guys!

so how good was the comp ?

I am sure that some were tough and some were not so tough but I can certainly name loads of real real tough fighters from other arts that have been beating down people in test of skill. My old mantis sifu had about 75 fights and I have watched the footage of some and these are not your average joe's! Hard tough fighters.

you here stories about this or that ''master''

but when ever you see them in action , they only look good when the set the parameters of the game [ demo power only ]

Understood! I agree with you as I have seen some sad stuff but I have also seen some good stuff. Like anything you need to find the jewel in the junk! hehe

so when you say quality control is there really any way to prove there was any quality in the first place

Hey! There are serious fighters and there are hacks. Those guys were serious fighters and that tends (not always) to attract serious competition. You have to understand that a lot of the publically (magazine people) groups tend to be not the core fighters of those arts. An example of serious is guys like my sigung Fung Chiu. He was supposed to be on of the two top fighters from Koo Lo in his day and the other was Fung Daat who is still around. He would go to Canton to challenge the Dragon, Whitebrow etc. guys in test of skill. He later moved to Hong Kong and eventually was hired by a Chief of Police to teach him martial art etc.. Other guys like Fung Chun, Fung Keung, Fung Lim, Fung Daat etc. all fight and enjoy it! Fung Keung is the guy who is kind of more public now a days and he is the one who some of your WSL brothers have visited to test out. You have heard the reports! These guys love to train and fight. Just like many do and many dont! Its a family tradition and they take it very seriously. Just like the gracies and other martial art family.

i could beat up 1000 librarians

Are you sure? hehehe

so perhaps WCK was good then against scrubs , farmers , peasents , and martial art business people

WCK is only as good as the person who uses it trains it to be. In the past they have fought tough tough guys and some not so tough. Lets use the Hong Kong days as an example. We all heard that the boys from YM school fought a lot of people and how it forged its reputation but have you seen the footage? So much for those legendary fights! I think I mentioned that WSL told my friend at a seminar in the UK that he mainly used Western boxing and a Chain punch to beat on of his opponents. I am sure he was found they were not very tough competition otherwise it would not have been so easy for him! Lets talk about the South Mantis fighters. Lum Sang's group were part of the Chinese Mafia and were extremely tough guys! The White Crane guys have been fighting people for years! They dominate in Taiwan. Wang Xiang Zhai fought anyone who was willing. His students also kick loads of butt. Like i said; there are tough and not so tough.

and this could be why it is weak now were it has to deal with a more fight educated world
no more secrets just put up or shut skill

Is it weak now because the people they fight are more educated or is it because of what they put into it/train it is not as seriously trained now a days? Or both!

what are your thoughts

My thoughts are this! WCK is a good art but just because something is good it does not mean its gonna work. Its up to us to train hard and make it work. WSL was a boxer. Leung Sheung was a Dragon guy. Yip Man did not train those arts but could beat those guys down and they eventaully started training with them. The good guys are just that! GOOD at what they do! They dont play others games and bring you into their game and place their game on you! So, for us to imporve we need to train hard, smart and not be shy to test our skill!


GOTTT RUN!

hehehe

[Vajramusti]

Joy
thank for your response

(no problem- probably wasted my time posting. Trying to be more selective about posting))

first i have nothing against hendrik
i think he is nuts but so am i

(I just ignore his songs and your snowboarding))

second proof is proof

((Whatever that means. Decide for yourself- as you seem to often have))


we are not time dating bones this is combat

((General Patton, General george marshall, Gavin, Clark (of Bosnia), Rommel-great warriors and also studnets of history.
Book worms))



funny how all other combative arts improve every year since they train foreward not in reverse

(Who is talking about training in reverse- I am not))


but that fantasy should not be imposed as proof

((Imposing? What? Where? When? Who?))

[Ernie]

GOTTT RUN!


one of these days your going to trip and fall :D


tough guys does not equal skillful alot of karate guys are tough ;)

so we have a few individuals that have abilties

but that will be the case with anything

back to training methods that produce results that transfer into fighting skill

my reason for the question in the first place

if only a few individuals had decent results then the system can not take credit

it's when many people show results [ take boxing , kick boxing and so on ] from the training methods that the system proves itself


so when did the wing chun system ever prove itself ;)

[Vajramusti]

Joy
thank for your response

(no problem- probably wasted my time posting. Trying to be more selective about posting))

first i have nothing against hendrik
i think he is nuts but so am i

(I just ignore his songs and your snowboarding
and many other list posts))

second proof is proof

((Whatever that means. Decide for yourself- as you seem to often have))


we are not time dating bones this is combat

((General Patton, General george marshall, Gavin, Clark (of Bosnia), Rommel-great warriors and also students of history.
Book worms))



funny how all other combative arts improve every year since they train foreward not in reverse

(Who is talking about training in reverse- I am not))


but that fantasy should not be imposed as proof

((Imposing? What? Where? When? Who?))

[Ernie]

Originally posted by Vajramusti
Joy
thank for your response
(I just ignore his songs and your snowboarding))

====== as you should , don't get me started on your dogs =) ==============================================


second proof is proof

((Whatever that means. Decide for yourself- as you seem to often have))
======= it means development of fight skill proven through testing not just talking , see that is simple ================

we are not time dating bones this is combat

((General Patton, General george marshall, Gavin, Clark (of Bosnia), Rommel-great warriors and also studnets of history.
Book worms))

===== telling some one were to stand and standing there yourself is a different thing , i hear the word bookworm and shiver =) ======================================

funny how all other combative arts improve every year since they train foreward not in reverse

(Who is talking about training in reverse- I am not))

==== didn't say you were so how are you moving foreward and based on what type of testing check and balance =)-----------


but that fantasy should not be imposed as proof

((Imposing? What? Where? When? Who?))
==== anyone that points beyond there own skill to prove a point
:D

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey Ernie,

so when did the wing chun system ever prove itself

One night when a guy tried to sucker punch me in a pub :D

There are other factors involved most likely the lack of his skill, but hey it was cool how you just react without thinking about it.

J

[Ernie]

Originally posted by Jeff Bussey
Hey Ernie,


One night when a guy tried to sucker punch me in a pub :D

There are other factors involved most likely the lack of his skill, but hey it was cool how you just react without thinking about it.

J

Jeff Great answer !!!

validated by personal experience

not some story about a flying nun ;)