fitness training in class

[packard]

I was interested in how much fitness training you do in a class vs actual kung fu practice. So for a warm up for example, how long and intense would this be in your class.

In fact what % of your classes are fitness and what is kung fu. Or do you consider it to be the same?

Just wondered really.

[SimonM]

It's not Kung Fu if it doesn't make you sweat. :p

Seriously though, it depends on the class.

During Kickboxing classes it's about 50/50 between drills and general fitness stuff like running, pushups, situps, etc.

During beginner/intermediate TCMA classes it's about 20% general fitness stuff and then just old fashioned hard work.

During intermediate/advanced TCMA classes it's about 10% general fintess and that is mainly stretching.

I generally don't do the jiu jutsu class (no time!) but from what I have seen it's about 10% physical fitness drills.

Gumdo classes don't have general fitness segments; that's OK, the Gumdo is hard enough on it's own. :D

[IronFist]

I started a thread about how much I hate it when they make you exercise in class and got flamed by a lot of people, but the cool people agreed with me.

I don't hate it for the sake of not liking exercise, but I hate it because I'm not paying money to have someone count while I do pushups, and the exercises that you do it class may mess up some outside training program you have (like weightlifting or whatever, especially if you're on a powerlifting cycle or something).

[SimonM]

I agree.

I think the preponderance of the drills of that nature in the Beginner class is because lots of newbies need to be told to do those general fitness drills or they never do.

As for the kickboxing class - I think it's to avoid having an hour of full-contact sparring to supervise. :) I don't know for certain.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by IronFist
I started a thread about how much I hate it when they make you exercise in class and got flamed by a lot of people, but the cool people agreed with me.

I don't hate it for the sake of not liking exercise, but I hate it because I'm not paying money to have someone count while I do pushups, and the exercises that you do it class may mess up some outside training program you have (like weightlifting or whatever, especially if you're on a powerlifting cycle or something).

I tend to agree with IF as long as the teacher encourages their students to maintain their fitness outside of class. To me, class is for learning and practicing technique. There should be some component of conditioning, but the bulk of the fitness and conditioning work should be left for outside of class.

Having said that, I guess it also depends on the demographic of the class. Maybe a solution is to offer a conditioning class separately?

[Mr Punch]

I left a class school before because it was over 50% exercises and many of them unrelated to the not-very-good kungfu that was being taught there. That sifu also had push-ups as part of his grading.

8 years and 14 (no fat!) kilos ago, I took a sample hung gar class, the sifu was cool and said because I had a lot of exp in other arts he would let me try the basic and the advanced classes. I couldn't keep up with the advanced class: it was really hard work.! Actually, I did keep it up out of sheer determination and couldn't walk properly for the next week! Those were mostly fu-related exercises so I didn't mind. Nowadays I could handle it anyway.

My MMA class has a jumping jacks, running on the spot between squat drills, star-jumping sideways and reversing etc... but I don't mind, it seems pretty closely related to the kind of muscle work you need for that kind of fighting. It's still only for the first 20 mins or so of a 1.5 hr class, just a very intensive 20 mins!

Guess what I'm saying is that it depends on the class! But generally I don't like it for the reasons that Ironfist stated.

[IronFist]

The only exception would be if someone was so absolutely busy that they never had time to exercise outside of class.

But, I think exercises in class should be optional. You should either be able to sit out if you want, or start the class 20 minutes early (or keep it 20 minutes late) for the people who want to exercise.

[Becca]

We do some classes with lots of calistenics, some with literally none. Same with stretching. We are taught that it is our own resposability to be warmed up before class, so not to expect any stretching or calistanics to start off slow.

That said, most of the workout is teaching us new exercizes that will help build the lesser used muscle groups, finding out how the class is progressing on building said muscle groups up, or checking to see if we as a group are physically ready for some new technique or other.

[scotty1]

Yeah every now and again we might have to do some of the conditioning we're meant to do outside of class, to remind you you're meant to be doing it outside of class. :D

[Judge Pen]

My class is about 1/3 conditioning. Of that about half is general stretching warm up type excercises and the remaining are related to kung fu: Either stance or drill based conditioning such as kick, sweep or punch drills and/or bag work or isometric training and qi gong.

The upper ranks have to pass a phsyical requirement test every year to stay active in the club.

[packard]

I do about a third fitness when I am teaching and the rest in Kung fu practice, which by its nature is fitness based.

I would like to do less and rely on students to do this in thier own time. However, the reality is that for many, who train only once a week, they just don't put the time in.

On the back of this, I separated a class just for those who cross train 3 or 4 sessions with me and do a set that is more advanced so I get to teach kung fu and not be an aerobics instructor with out the music.

[MasterKiller]

You do exercises at the beginning of class so that you are already a little tired when you practice technique. The stress of training while being tired is more realsitic than just standing around going "OK, grab my hand. The other hand. No....your other hand."

[Ray Pina]

Our classes are 3 hours long .... at least half of it spent with boxing gloves and gear drilling specific ideas/technique.

You can always tell the new guys with some prior experience because they get there early and start doing splits and kicking over their head trying to make their pants make that crisp snapping sound.

We don't believe in stretching before class. "Do what you can afford" is pretty much our motto. There is no pre-fight stretching and warm up like Bruce Lee in The Dragon. With time, you aquire savings and credit and can afford more and more, it happens naturally from training.

[red5angel]

I've been thinking a little about this and my perspective has changed some since I started Capoeira.

I used to be the type to say that fitness training should be left out of a martial arts class. Some martial arts wil get you fit anyway, whether you like it or not.
Recently, in Capoeira ( I noticed a similar issue with Shaolin Longfist) I've learned that you can't do capoeira unless you're in pretty good shape. It demands a lot from you to keep up and to be able to do a lot of the moves. I'm not saying it's the worlds answer to fitness, I'm just saying that without fitness, you can't do it very well at all.

Saying that, some people don't do fitness outside of class. This translates to bad capoeira in class. My attitude in training has always been that while you can get so far on your own talent, you can get ****her by training with others who are working atleast as hard as you. That means that if these people aren't forced to keep up (I know they shouldn't have to be but serisouly, it drags the quality of the training down since the martial arts and certainly capoeira are highly interactive.).

For example, there are a couple of high school girls in our class. One of them is in enough shape to mostly keep up. The other needs a lot of work. We were drilling the other night and I was in a groove. When it came time to drill with her, we kept having to stop so she could catch her breath.

I guess what I'm saying is that atleast for more strenuous arts, maybe some physical trainig and conditioning should be plugged in. Maybe just in basic classes?

[norther practitioner]

Yeah, I need to get in to better shape just to learn a form right now... lol, which is good, because the whole dropping a weight class for fighting wasn't motivating me enough...

[Reggie1]

Out of the 6 days a week my school is open, we have three days which involve conditioning that isn't directly related to a MA drill. It's ~15 minutes long each of these days and is pretty basic. We also do about 10 min. of stretching on those days.

Now when you lump the general fitness time in with all of our drills, forms, etc., by the end of those classes you are completely gassed. If I attended every class, 6 days a week, general fitness would encompass ~10% of our class time.

Personally, I don't mind doing conditioning like that. I don't really have the time to exercise independently outside of class. Also, like MK said, we have to do our forms work and drills while we are tired. It makes for a much more challenging experience. Plus, there's something to be said for suffering as a group. Somehow it makes it a little easier.

And I see why my sifu does it, also. Most of the people in my class either don't have time to condition on their own, or just don't do it. In order to keep everybody physically able to handle what we do, he has to ensure that people are maintaining similar levels of fitness. And this is how to do that.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
Our classes are 3 hours long .....

Wow. :eek: That's a long class!

Edit - I meant :eek:, not :rolleyes:

[red5angel]

class length is certainly an issue you have to consider. If your class is only an hour long then you need to maximize your time. My capoeira class is technically only an hour long but it can run as long as 2.5 to 3 because we end up staying after it's over to work on stuff.

[SimonM]

Originally posted by norther practitioner
Yeah, I need to get in to better shape just to learn a form right now...

I hear that!

In a form I did a while ago there was a diving shoulder roll followed by two kicks from the ground followed by a shoulder roll back up to standing with a double spear hand. I had never tried a set of movements with that level of difficulty before.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by SimonM
I agree.

I think the preponderance of the drills of that nature in the Beginner class is because lots of newbies need to be told to do those general fitness drills or they never do.

No, it's to make sure that you are in shape. in my bjj, thai and judo classes, we do alot of fitness training - it's integrated into everything we do. For example, in thai, there is bag/pad work. in judo, there are uchi komis and randori. in bjj, there are drills we repeat quickly, for example a spinning arm bar from the guard. These things will increase your fitness level at the same time you are developing your skills. we also spend the beginning of class doing calesthenics.

Let's say a class is getting ready for a competition (which we are, as the arnold's are in 9 weeks and judo nationals. there are also some guys competing in a local mma event this month.) naturally, we want to make a good showing, so we have to make sure that we are ready. Not everyone who competes is as motivated as others, so you really can't rely on them to train outside of class. In class, the instructors and coaches will make sure you bust your arse to get ready for the competition. The easiest way to get there is to stay in competition shape year round, no? So we train hard constantly, but vary our drills and such when preparing for competition.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by red5angel
For example, there are a couple of high school girls in our class. We were drilling each other the other night and I was in a groove, but we kept having to stop so she could catch her breath.


Red's drilling the high school girls in his caporeria class. Lucky *******. :p

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by SimonM
I hear that!

In a form I did a while ago there was a diving shoulder roll followed by two kicks from the ground followed by a shoulder roll back up to standing with a double spear hand. I had never tried a set of movements with that level of difficulty before.

what style do you train?

[wall]

My classes are 90 minutes and the last 30 is "fitness" work. I agree with keeping them separate, and I myself do separate sessions for my own training, but reality is that for 90% of my students the 3 weekly kungfu classes are the only exercise, and cosequently they must do some specific strenght, endurance and flexibility work to support the technical progression.
I'd love nothing better then to have a class full of fit, strong and flexible students ready to work with me solely on ma, but that's utopia. I always advise them on separate fitness programs to support and accellerate the martial training, and some of them do, but school and work committment mean it's always a minority.
Unfortunately.

W

[red5angel]

Red's drilling the high school girls in his caporeria class. Lucky *******.

LOL! How do you think I'm geting my cardio in?!

[yutyeesam]

the key is balance. i used to be so antifitness in class, b/c i wanted every precious second to be on refining technique. but then, i found that when i integrated some basic callesthenics, and such, it raised the spirit, and people's techniques were getting better, b/c they were getting stronger.

but i know of another club who spends literally 45 min on callesthenics before their 45 min on techniques. sure, they got great abs, but their tech is all sloppy, cuz they're trying to learn under major exhaustion. ...altho it is cool to see them grunt and grit their teeth "Carter Wong Born Invincible" style, just to get their side kick 3 inches off the ground!

[David Jamieson]

warm up is warm up. a little cal, a light stretch and straight to it.

after all, it's kungfu school not fat camp.

I think if you are spending too much time doing cal, then there is a need to address it. Of course it could very well be that people only are exercising when they come to class.

all too often there is a lack of home practice. and if they aren't practicing the fu at home, they certainly aren't keeping fit.

I don't know if cal is conditioning as I regard it. I see conditioning as a whole lot more than sit ups, push ups and jumping jacks et al.

But these types of cal provide a quick warm up and should be there to get ready, but they really shouldn't consume more than 10% of your class time imo.

[red5angel]

I think 10% is reasonable. We do about 5-8 minutes of warming up and stretching, but a good portion of our warm up is doing some basics.
You can also work in working out during your training. Like I said, most of our warm ups are just basic techniques. We also do several drills that are sort of competitive and if you get hit or kicked, or whatever, you have to do so many pushups or whatnot. I also tend to show up about 20 minutes early to warm up, and stay late as I can to practice and stretch more.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by red5angel
You can also work in working out during your training. Like I said, most of our warm ups are just basic techniques.

I also tend to show up about 20 minutes early to warm up, and stay late as I can to practice and stretch more.

Bingo. nothing wrong with combining the fitness and training - it just has to be done the right way.

[norther practitioner]

Right now, we do some conditioning in our taiji class, which blows most taiji people away.. fitness, taiji, no way..

lol

[Samurai Jack]

I used to train at a Kungfu school where we ran around the block as a warm-up at the start of class, then did some basic Chinese calisthenics, then stretched. The whole routine took about 30 minutes with a ten minute run. Sifu wanted us to develop "Kungfu bodies".

He always emphasized that Kungfu isn't about martial arts, so much as perseverance through adversity. For most students, his brief warmup period was the most intense exercise they'd ever done, and it was MANDATORY, even for him. If you trained at our school, you worked out at least three days a week.

He'd always happily say, "This is my gift to you. Even if you give up martial arts, you now know how to develop good Kungfu and stay healthy for the rest of your life!" I wish we did the same thing at my Aikido dojo, but the seniors would look hilarious running through the streets in Hakama!

[Pork Chop]

Been on both sides of the fence with this one.

When starting out, if you're killing yourself on every exercise, then you're not going to learn as much or perform as well during the skills portion of the class. This isn't so bad if you work often enough to show improvement; to eventually train your body to where it adapts; but the key here is that you still need to be able to walk around and work out within a day or 2 after your last work out.

On the other hand, once you've been doing it a while, you NEED to push yourself to make significant progress; ESPECIALLY if you're preparing for a fight.

So I guess I recommend working a beginner out to a level that they can handle. Showing up to class twice a week for 2 hours of killer workout isn't good if the student can't get out of bed the other 5 days. Focusing on the skills exclusively isn't good for too long, if it's the only exercise they get, because they won't have the level of fitness required to perform the techniques later on.

Work them out for what they can handle (they should still sweat and breathe hard); then increase the work load from there.

A reasonable workout to improve fitness should have some aspect of aerobic-cardiovascular endurance work, a maximal strength aspect, an aspect of anaerobic/muscular endurance, as well as exercises to promote flexibility and good joint health - all done for both the upper and lower body. Activity-specific drills (such as footwork drills & pad work) are also important.

[IronFist]

^ Yeah. If someone can only do like 20 Hindu squats, and before class they make everyone do 50 or 100, that person isn't going to get much benefit from the class after that cuz his legs are going to be jelly.

[SimonM]

Originally posted by SevenStar
what style do you train?

My Sifu refers to the core style as Black Dragon Kung Fu which I gather is a family style. Mostly it's Hung Gar and Northern Shaolin material in origin though. Learning Tiger and Crane right now.

[yenhoi]

With a partner (or without) people can practice:

shoots
sprawls
sitting up (from the guard..)

basic conditioning AND training.

training time should be spent training.



;)