For those who do Qi Shou

[Three Harmonies]

For those of you that play the Babu set Qi Shou (Seven Hands), do you do it on one side only, or do you change sides on the turn back? Just curious.

Thanks
Jake

[BeiTangLang]

Left & right, back & forth.

[Oso]

We start in a left lead tong long bow sim and turn around and come back repeating it for a second road but it's still starting from the left lead...so, at this point I personally haven't been doing it on the other side...yet...not sure about yushan or 18elders or ponglai...

you guys do a 2-person?

[BeiTangLang]

I could be thinking of a seperate drill,...
(Still reeling in from the new years parties! LOL!)

[Three Harmonies]

Oso
Their is a two person but I never picked it up. Qi Shou was something my first teacher Keith Weiner Laoshi taught me in an afternoon, and then we just worked on techniques from their and never focused on the actual sets too much.
BTL
I also know your guys' Qi Shou, and yes it is totally different. Sorry for the confusion.
What we are reffering too is an Ba Bu Tanglang remedial form that has what they consider seven of the basic techniques found in Eight Step Mantis.

Thanks Guys, keep it coming
Jake

[yu shan]

Hi Jake!

Sent you a pm on this. I have voiced my opinion about this fabulous little form here more than once. True entry level, but as Tainan Mantis so rightly said, it is full of nuances. Shr ZhengZhong spiced this form up for us over the summer. One thing he did was change the deng pu to a deng ta, this was interesting. The form itself is a fun start to Mantis, but I do feel the two-person is not so easy. The two-person I learned is high energy stuff... for a short burst anyway. :D

Also, there are alot of two- man drills in this form. Eight Step is a Mantis Style I`d like to pursue.

[BeiTangLang]

Jotcha,..I just need to actually read the posts.
My mind is clearer today than yesterday.
Didn't see the ba-bu before. Thanks for clarifying.

[Oso]

yu shan: do we switch sides later? seems like it would be simple enough to just turn out the other way after the last long arm strike...but of course then you are looking at learning the ling side off side as well....

[BeiTangLang]

Anyone have a video clip of at least part of this form?

[Oso]

I can't remember the exact name of the site but there is a babu site with a clip of GM Wei performing it.

I have a clip on my site of two of my students doing the two person at a tourney but the site is temporarily out of commission.

hopefully it will be up later today.


went to look for that website but couldn't find it.

found this though...has some old pics on it towards the bottom.

http://www.fortunecity.com/olympia/moses/1049/id21.htm

[Three Harmonies]

www.babutanglang.com is the shiznitz site for Babu Mantis.

[Oso]

das it !

[mantis108]

Tainan shared his version of Qishou with me. I have to say this little form is central to what I am working on now. This is an excellent form on power generation with roots, short power, closing gaps, etc... It is also great for teaching the concept of Chang Quan Duan Da (long fist short strikes) and keep blasting forward.

I actually starts off the 2 men with some Kao Da stuff before getting into the Tanglang Puchan instead of the regular salutation stuff.

We would also start off with different Puchan apps but would lead back into the form. BTW, there is a way to start off like the 2 Men Bengbu as in Ponglai style but it takes a little more work on the connecting part. It is not as easily learn for the novice. So I don't generally do that but it is a fun way as well.

Because of the different ways of starting off the form and the little changes here and there. It gives the novice a broader view on how things are done in Mantis IMHO. This is surely a great form that even the experienced won't feel board to play. You could have hours of fun just by practicing the 2 Men of this form.

Mantis108

PS you could stay being the same size if you have room for as long as you want or you could switch size at the end of the road. That's my take on it. :)

[EarthDragon]

Three harmonies,
Allow me to introduce myself, My name Is Shrfu Michael Haley, student of Shyun Kwan Long. I was wondering where and from whom you are learning 8 step. I was not aware of anyone from the family teaching in N.M But i might just be out of touch LOL, please repsond back and let me know , thanks so much

In answer to your question, we do practice it bothe sides, not easy to do at first but you can also apply this to the eights as well and it makes for interesting learning to say the least,
How long have you been training in 8 step, what level are you ? good luck and be well,

[Three Harmonies]

Nice to meet your acquaintance Mr. Haley. You are not out of touch, nor going crazy, I am not part of your lineage. I learned all my Babu from the Wu Tang organization under my first teacher Keith Weiner Laoshi, and then later under Yang Shu Ton Laoshi. I practice the forms and techniques taught to me, but I only include the sets in the childrens curriculum. In the adult classes we focus on Liu He and Mei Hua Tanglang. I teach here in NM, as all my teachers are out of state/country. I am not sure what you mean by "level," as I still consider myself a student even though I teach. I am the only traditional Mantis for hundreds of miles around, so I had few options when Keith left town. I have trained in Babu Tanglang for app. 5 1/2 years. I only know a few sets. Enough ranting about me, if you want to see my full credentials go to www.threeharmonies.com
Where are you out of Earthdragon?
If you are interested I am offering a weekend seminar next weekend on the Bai Yuan Tao Toe set from Mei Hua along with as many apps I can cram down everyones throat! I would be honored if you could attend. If not, I understand it is short notice. Will you be at the Mantis Gathering in Cleveland weekend of April 22nd? Hope to meet you soon.

Cheers
Jake

[EarthDragon]

Ahhhh that explains it, well it's good to have kung fu brothers from all lineages here on the forum. As far as level I was just wondering what ranking you were. I will not be able to attend your seminar in NM a little far for me but would like to see you in clevland. could you give me some more info on that? As for me I have been studying for 24 years and teaching for 8. I can be found in the mantis cave under ba bu under shyun guan long as well as our webiste kungfuusa.net. Good luck in your seminar and keep up the good work spreading mantis to the people of NM, PS check out tainan's tape It is quite good, take care and be well.............

[devout]

as a question
what is the name of the 3rd move in this form (the one following the deng pu)
it seems to be the same move that starts the 3rd row of Beng Bu.
It is done both to the left and to the right, and involves the sweep.

This has to be my fav.

When I fight made up enemies in my dreams aside from my "invisible gun" this seems to be my go to move.

That makes me a loser, right?

[mantis108]

I believe in some older Quanpu from Meihwa side of things. This move is called Po Dao Shou roughly translated as breaking Knife hand or knife chopping hand. If you are doing it left and right as in the form. It would be Zuo You Po Dao Shou. If the hand is done with mantis hook, it would be Gaoji Bu instead just varations that's all IMHO.

Mantis108

[devout]

Many thanks, I truly enjoy knowing as much background info as possible.
So is it safe to assume that using both the left and right hands to perform the break and chop constitutes one technique? I think that’s how I understand what you said.
In addition, is there any common occurrence of this technique (Po Dao Shou) performed alone in a form without doing both left and right sides?
And if I could squeeze one more question in… is this a technique that appears across the boards in PM, or is it typical of only a few styles?
Thank you.

[Tainan Mantis]

This technique is one of the utmost of importance in mantis.
Originally it is first introduced in the form luanjie, an older PM form.
Luanjie contains variations and in Li Kunshan's book lists them as...

-outer beam to left and right
-jade maiden weaves shuttle to left and right
-running horse double fastens to left and right

other names for the same principle, usually with a small difference in the hands is...

-left and right 2 outer forearm elbows
-left and right encircling outer forearm elbows
-left and right double sealing elbows

etc.
All based on a single principle.

In 8 step this is taught early within the 8 moving steps and was expalined to me in great detail by Mike Martello while he was training in Taiwan.
this form of 8 roads contains the most essential aspects of the style which include the combination of knife breaking hand combined with deng pu.

Jake,
I think this relates to your question.
To my knowledge 7 hands was only taught on one side.
But in the 8 moving steps, which ar performed on both sides, all the principles of 7 hands appear.

One thing about trad MA though.
They have moves which favor your strong points.

Since the right arm and leg are usually stronger than the left, the construction of 7 Hands is built around that.

In other words, it is not important that you do the move well on both sides of the body, but that you can slam your opponent to the ground decisively.

no need to worry how he appraoches me in his attack, I just do right deng pu regardless of which hand or leg he sends first and it still is a takedown(deng pu or deng ta).

So, in this viewpoint, trying to do 7 hands ambidextroiusly is not a good idea as it takes away from the fact I can do nothing but this single right deng pu move regardless of what arm or leg or side my opponent presents to me.

[bokfu]

Hi, Guys...
Some of us 8 step mantis practitioners were discussing this post the other night during our practice. There were a lot of viewpoints on doing chi sau or seven palms, which is the first set of ba bu tang lang. This form really appears very simple at first look, but overall, it is rather complex in depth. The surface techniques which most people are familiar with seem easy enough, but all 8 step artists know that the variations are what make this form a lifetime work of practice. The variations are easier to understand and practice of course when performing the two man set, where your opponent will change attack angles, leverages, etc. each time the form is performed, whether intentional or not.

As far as doing the form, the form is taught right side going one way. What happened after some years, was that people got the idea to finish the form and turn and go back to continue the practice without stopping and also ending up in the same place they started. So, if you ask some of the "old" students of 8 step and ask them to show you the first form, they are going to show you one direction, right side for the form. As far as doing left side... that is something expected for you to do on your own. In class, they only checked out the right side, since the information would be the same on both, so why expend the extra breath. A student is expected to know both sides well. If you only do one side, your other side is untrained, and of course there is your weakness. (Personally, to check my understanding of a technique or portion of a form, I will quickly do the left side to see if it is easily done or understood. If I balk at doing the left side, I realize there is a problem.) If you have a complete understanding of a technique or form, the left side will flow and all you need to focus on at that point is just raising your skill and dexterity on it. When I began my training in the arts, my teacher told me to do twice as many punches, kicks or techniques on the weak side so it could even up with the strong side. I am right handed so my left side took the work. Mysparring partner was left handed and he had to work the right side twice as hard. In the end of our time together, we evened up and were matched pretty well in sparring. I now feel comfortable left or right handed in sparring which is a nice feeling when you come across a southpaw.

If you believe, in an instance of defending yourself in some attack, you will only use one side of your body or one arm or one leg or movement which is relegated to one side of your body, you will have the great misfortune of realizing too late. Let us say you know your right side can do everything you expect it to and it is your strongest side. Suddenly your opponent pulls out a knife, slashes at you and your strong arm takes the brunt of the cut and your arm is rendered useless from cut tendons. At this point, will you lie down and die, because you no longer have your right arm? You would obviously switch to your left side... now the side which you whole life depends. Do you think you would want this side of your body to be well practiced like your right side? If you life depended on this side, do you think you could possibly put in the time of practice on it?

Why do we study martial arts? Do you study for fun, for health or for the ability to show off some nice forms and things to your friends? I would imagine that a large portion of us want to be able to protect ourselves and our families against outside violence. Martial arts is fun and games, but the core reason is self defense. Keep a stong game going, so if the unfortunate time comes when it is necessary to put out your education as a wall of defense, make sure it is a strong wall.

One story I would like to share with you guys before I shut up for another few months follows: My wife, originally a student of mine in Bok Fu Do has used martial arts in two instances to save herself; once, against a drug induced emergency room patient, and once against a jail inmate who grabbed her while she was delivering medications. (She was a nurse and worked for the county jail on weekends) When the inmate grabbed my wife, her dominant right hand held papers and a clipboard. Which hand saved her? Her weaker left hand. I won't detail the technique, but once it was over, she had the inmate down on his face in pain and she still had papers in her right hand while controlling him! The attack and defense happened so quickly, that the cop, who was standing just six feet away could not intervene. My wife is Asian and weighs about 110 pounds less than the inmate. I remember her practicing at our home for hours on end all her techniques left and right sides. Am I thankful for those hours she spent working her left side? You tell me.

Happy new year to you all and I hope you have a great year in your training and education.

Bokfu

[mantis108]

I totally agreed with Tainan. I also deeply appreciate Bokfu's post, thank you my friend. However, I think strong side focus in PM can be fully supported with theory and historic evidence. Now, I have to stress that this is by no means over ruling Bokfu's points. In fact, Bokfu's has a very strong point and he backed it up with his wife's experience. I am just pointing out that right side focus is a very traditional mindset.

Also:

-outer beam to left and right

This is done with a closed fist.

-jade maiden weaves shuttle to left and right

This is done with wrist elbow (mantis back hand)

-running horse double fastens to left and right

This is done with the one palm on top of the other forearm forming somewhat of a circle.

Hi Devout,

You are most welcome. :) There is nothing more enjoyable then sharing fun stuff with friends.

Po Dao Shou don't have to be done twice to be effective IMHO. But as Tainan said this is a rather traditional thing. If you are left side forward, you'd more than likely would follow up with the right PDS because your Lt PDS would be applied to the opponent's right side also his presumed strong side. Chances are he would be able to counter that so with a follow up rt PDS to his weak side, you will have a better change of getting him good. But if you are good at it, there is no reason that you can't finish him with one "off sided" move.

Actually, Po Dao Shou is often followed by Dengta or Dengpu in which case it's known as Xiaochao Lian Dengta. I would think this is more Meihwa side of thing though. Come to think of it this is within the 8 moving step (don't go by the same name though) of 8 Step PM too if I am not mistaken.

Mantis108

[mantis108]

Just got an email from Mike Martello. He shared the name of the move as Tun Ta Bu - Break the blade, throw away. So poetic... A thousand thanks, Mike.

BTW, I forgot to mention that Tainan is working on an article about Luanjie. So for those who have access to the Mantis Quarterly stay tune for this wonder piece from our very own Tainan Mantis.

Mantis108

[MantisCool]

I agreed with Tainan too that the focus is not on doing the move well on both sides of the body, but that you can slam your opponent to the ground decisively.

Each side has its own merit and strong point. Example, which is better? You train certain technique 100 times on each side or 200 times on one side. To me, the 200 times is better because 100 times is half baked!

One side will compliment the other on their own technique. The same goes to your defense. If your opponent has a powerful technique which is almost defenseless and you wanted to counter it. Do you think you can defense with either side?

[18elders]

18 elders and ba kwai train both sides.

[electric mantis]

bok-fu:

How have you been, friend? It has been a long time since I have seen a posting from you. I was just wondering if you practice your forms on both sides and also if your teacher master Chang practices both sides? If you do practice both sides, does it really matter? As the others have mentioned, they say that being able to slam the person decisively is more important that doing the technique in the form well on the left side. I hope Master Chang is doing well. I heard that he is back from Taiwan now for good. Best regards to him and to you.

[EarthDragon]

mantis108, speaking of the quarterly, have you heard from Steve?

I wrote an article and sent him some digital pictures for the first issue of this year but have not heard back from him to confirm he recieved them.....
I did get a email that said his computer had crashed but have not heard from him.
So if you have heard from him or Steve if your out there please contact me. actually beofre I get yelled at by BEI, LOL I will start a seprate thread .

Take no offence Bei you do a great job and we love ya for it!

[yu shan]

Mantis108

I`ve picked up the two man form starting off like 7*bengbu also. Really puts a twist on it. Here`s a stupid question, does it make this version of the two-man, Seven Star PM?

My school trains Po Dao Shou ALOT! We also combine the PDS with Dengta & Dengpu... both sides. Training the PDS, Dengta, and Dengpu should keep you very busy and happy.

[bokfu]

Electric Mantis,
Thanks for your kind words for Sifu Chang; I will pass them along to him. By the way, it is true he is back here in the states. I am not sure where you found this out, but it is a fact.

To answer your questions about this right/left side issue, I do practice both sides. Sifu Chang practices both sides and I am sure that the students at the 8 step mantis school in Taiwan practice both sides. We all follow the late Grandmaster Wei's teachings and he said that it should be done. I don't know if anyone ever asked him why, but he had his reasons, and I for one am sure that they must be very solid.

I may have been misunderstanding the earlier posts from other sifus and students. I interpreted some of their ideas as only training one side in the external aspects. I believe I am wrong in my interpretation, because we have a lot of educated and skilled martial artists here posting and I don't believe that they meant to ignore one side in training. My belief is this: Technique is the basis of all good martial arts. We practice martial arts not just to learn a movement, but to perfect the technique. If you practice the technique on one side, you can only perfect it on the one side. Perfection requires practice. How can you slam someone down without proper technique? Knowledge and ability of proper technique is what divides novice from expert in the arts. Whithout technique one would have to depend on brute force. If you are small, can you slam a 240 lb. man without proper technique? Technique is infinitely important in that respect. If you have developed the right side, then that would be the only side available for an effective defense, since the left has been untrained.

Considering the three styles of martial arts I know; Tracy style American Kenpo, Southern Chinese style White Tiger (Bok Fu Do), and of course Eight Step Mantis from the north. (I also play around with Pentjak Silat, which is a military martial art from Indonesia.) All these styles come from different parts of the world and they all expect both sides to be equal. Why would they?

I would hope that if I did have to fight another martial artist, he would only have practiced his techniques on one side. If that artist tried to guess and attack my "weak" side, what would he come up with, since I work both sides equally? Also, in our training, we use jing, which is the essence of the internal core of 8 step mantis. This just means that you cannot judge strength or weakness in one side or another basing the decision on muscular strength. Here you have more technique training. To go against internal or soft style, you have to consider both sides strong. So, this is what I believe in and train in.

Other people have their own ways to train. It is a personal preference, so I don't knock anyone's style. What's right for one person is not right for another. At this point, in training 8 step, we consider honing the techniques on both sides important. So, there you have my personal belief. If you train, just follow your heart on what is right and what you need. Hope to hear from you again sometime, E.M.. One day you need to let me know where you are located.

Bokfu

[electric mantis]

Bok-Fu

My thanks for your reply. I try to practice both sides myslef. I never thought too much on why to do this, but my teacher does the same and I just do as he does. The technique item that you mentioned does make sense to me. The practice of the techniques and its perfection in action is why we must all do the form corectly. It is not to show off pretty movements to our friends as you said before. I have one question about the jing which you talked about in your last posting. Jing is qi, right? The BaBu style is focused more on this than other mantis styles?

[bokfu]

Hello, again E.M.

Just a quick response here about your question concerning jing. Jing and qi (chi) are not the same by any means. Chi is an energy which all humans have from the time that they are born and wanes as we get older. You can revive and increase chi with certain excercises and breathing control. You can acquire chi quickly with these excercises or slowly through just your basic martial arts practice over the years. I practice quigong in the mornings which specifically target acquiring more chi energy. You don't have to be in martial arts to acquire and use chi in your personal well being.

Jing is the million dollar word for the day. Jing is the internal concept of using the body and specific movements to generate tremendous power without using more muscular strength. Jing is how one can do the smallest movement... almost undetectable and generate enough power to knock the wind out of an opponent. Jing is what internal martial artists focus on. For example, Tai Chi is not just focusing on Chi energy like most people assume... it is focusing on the exacting movements combining all parts of the body into the perfect synchronization to generate the bone breaking power in the perfect punch or in a particular technique. The more in sync the body is in doing say a punch, the stronger the punch. The body is totally relaxed and creates power above and beyond the external styles. Eight Step has great external techniques, but the internal work is really the core. Hsing I, Baqua and Taijiquan are basically wrapped with the external techniques of Eight Step Mantis. This is why Eight Step is different than the other mantis styles. This is also why I consider my left hand and my right hand on equal terms. There is no physical strength needed to increase to get the power. In fact, because relaxation and fluidity in the movement is necessary to effectively use jing, my left hand is usually stronger when striking. This is because it is naturally more limber than my dominant right hand.

Sure you can learn ba bu tang lang quan and be great using the techniques in it, but if you want to master it and be unstoppable, you have to look inside to the internal soft side. As one ages, the external or hard style of martial arts just won't get it... the body becomes weaker and more fragile in a way. Internal is what allows a master to strike harder and faster than a young man maybe even 40 or more years his junior. I knowyou have heard the old saying "don't mess with old man kung fu". This is exactly why. By the time a martial artist ages, his internal side should be more predominant if he practiced correctly. He is deadly at that point for sure. (I should tell you later of a story from my sifu's time as a youth, practicing martial arts and his encounter with an elderly man... a smoker at that! It defines this ability with a nice illustration)

Anyway, this is a quick explanation of the difference. If you are patient, my sifu, John Chang is writing a book on the concepts and practice of jing, which we hope to get published. He is probably the only person who has studied this and understands it to a point that he can specifically tell one how to practice jing and incorporate it into one's art. There are no "secret" methods, flowery yet nebulous explanations. It is straight forward and direct and understandable for everyone. From books written a hundred years ago, the concept is the same. Interesting stuff. Great question, E.M.. Take care and train safe.

Bokfu

[sayloc]

Bokfu

I think you may be confusing Jing and Fa jing.

Jing is one of the three treasures . Jing,Chi and Shen. Essence, energy and spirit. Mainly dealing With Qigong.

"Fajin" or "Fajing" I believe is expressing the energy (not necassarily Chi) or power in your martial application.

There is no I can explain this over the net. That is the best I can do for now. I could be wrong

Try not to be to hard on me :)

[mantis108]

Hi Earth Dragon,

Looks like you BTL has replied to your request already. I am sure you will get a response soon.

Hi Yu Shan,

Regarding the flavor, that's a very good question. Personally, I don't think that a different way of doing things essentially changes the "history". I am of the opinion that the Qishou was from the Meihwa side of things. There is one unmistakeable key which is the short range mechanics of the greater Meihwa lines meaning there is no chambering of the hands. I believe this is what Taiji Shou (Grand Ultimate Hands) really means in the old Quanpu. The way the form is designed, which is remarkably similar to Luanjie's logic, you would not need to chamber the hands at all. So ....

Warm regards

Mantis108

[bokfu]

Sayloc,
You are right on the jing issue... my fault for just referring to fa jing as just jing. I should be more clear in the "jing" I am speaking of. I just have a bad habit of saying jing instead of fa jing. The "jing" I was referring is not the jing, chi, and shen. Thanks for pointing that out where I can clarify for Electric Mantis.
So, Electric Mantis, I was referring to fa jing for use in application and not the basic energy element in the body which could be transferred to chi, which I think you may have been referring to in your last post. I hope I did not confuse you any more than necessary! LOL.

Bokfu

[EarthDragon]

Bok Fu great post,

mantis 108,

thanks, actually Steve called me today but thier is an issue with translation that we need your help with. Steve will be calling you, sorry back to the topic

[electric mantis]

Bok-Fu
Thanks again for the reply and the clarification. It sounds like you focus a lot on Fa jing. No focus on the energy jing? Just wonder 'cause I was reading the KFM's article on chi and breathing. Do you consider jing, chi, and shen unimportant in the 8 step mantis practice and technique? Sorry to ask so many questions. I should also post this in another area, I think. I am getting off of the original thread ;). I have other questions, but I may just send you an e-mails. Is your e-mail address lienchuandao@hotmail.com?

[bokfu]

Thanks, Earth Dragon...


Electric Mantis,

I don't consider jing, chi, shen unimportant... but I don't really push hard to advance too much in these. I know that chi is important in martial arts, but it won't hinder a persons abilities in too many areas if he has not developed chi. On the other hand, if a person does not try to understand and develop fa jing, he will be held back in the future. I would rather take a punch from an expert in chi before I would take a punch from an expert in fa jing. (On the same note; a person can develop chi by practicing fa jing, but practicing chi won't develop fa jing.)

I do know that chi energy can be developed to actually do damage, so I am not discounting that. It is just that there are probably only a few that can control and use that energy properly. I do believe that the breathing excercises in practicing the formation of chi is very good and of course that would help out tremendously with martial arts. Breathing and its control is part of a base in martial arts one must develop.

So, I am a believer in Chi and its capabilities, but I prefer to let it develop naturally. Every morning, I work on a quigong routing that is supposed to increase my chi, so I believe in it enough to take 20 minutes every morning and devote it to this. This is my personal opinion for my own use... so I hope no one takes this as a negative against practicing the development of chi.

As far as e-mail... I am looking forward to it. The address that you have is correct.

Bokfu