Typical WC?

[Knifefighter]

Nick F posted this link regarding WC being used in a competitive situation:
http://www.chiu-vingtsun.com/news_en.htm

Are these clips representative of how WC is used against a resisting opponent? If so, what are the things that are being done correctly? If not, what are the things that are missing/being done incorrectly?

[Phil Redmond]

What can I say? :(
These reminded me that someone sent me a link with some girl fights. I didn't enjoy those either.
PR

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
What can I say? :(
These reminded me that someone sent me a link with some girl fights. I didn't enjoy those either.
PR Maybe the fact that no one seems to be able to fight halfway decently using WC shows the inherent weakness in the system?

[Ultimatewingchun]

There are inherent weakness in SOME systems of Wing Chun...quite possibly.

But within other WC systems it's a different story.

And the INDIVIDUAL use of these systems.

All of this has to be taken into account.

[SAAMAG]

ummmm....has anyone noticed that this was sanshou and not wing chun?

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Vankuen
ummmm....has anyone noticed that this was sanshou and not wing chun? ummmm....correct me if I am wrong, but I believe sanshou is just a format for fighting competitions. I believe at least one of the fighters in each of the clips was a WC guy.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
There inherent weakness in SOME systems of Wing Chun...quite possibly.

But within other WC systems it's a different story.

And the INDIVIDUAL use of these systems.

All of this has to be taken into account. OK, so how about critiqueing the weaknesses shown in those clips as compared to how a "stronger" system might do it. Maybe you can even demonstrate these things in your upcoming video clips?

[planetwc]

I watched the first clip so far.
The 70kg weight class fight.

These guys are WSL style Ving Tsun.

The guy in black, who wins is the Ving Tsun guy.

He held his own against the other fighter (would have been interesting to know the other guys style). He got just as many takedowns as the other guy did. And other than a bloody nose? perhaps towards the last part of the fight he was dominating. He was able to make the other guy move away in reaction to his forward pressure and strikes, so that for me was dominance.

He was throwing a lot of jabs, crosses and hooks. For the most part it looked like he was driving linearly against his opponent. And he would do a good job of catching his opponents kicks and following up by throwing him down.

1. I give the guy props for getting in the ring and mixing it up.
2. I give him props for taking and giving throws.
3. I give him props for NOT devolving into "bad" kickboxing (with sloppy kicks, spinning kicks, spinnning backfists).
4. He kept forward pressure on the guy and hit him a lot.

And in the end he WON! So kudos to him. Good job. That was him against a resisting opponent. He won according to the judges and according to what I saw. So his personal Wing Chun held up.

What was your problem with this guy Dale?

[mortal]

I give them credit for competing.

I didn't see any movements from wingchun in the fights. It looked to be all sanshou.

He just ran at him throwing wild punches before he could see possible openings. If the other guy was good he would have knocked the wild charging guy in black, out. Also there was no structered techniques of any kind.

The throws were pretty cool.

[planetwc]

The WSL guy is in the black trunks with red on them. His opponent is wearing all black trunks.

I'm wondering if his opponent is either White Crane or Choy Lay Fut.

The WSL guy is using more looping punches, which is a negative. Not quite windmilling but close. But d@mn he was aggressive. Did a lot of front kicks to set up entry to follow up with strikes. More muay thai style neck clinches which didn't work as well for him.

Technically speaking his elbows were out a lot and the punches were thrown from outside, with rocking back and forth(sideways). More poor boxing than WC. On the other hand he was dominating his opponent. Getting a lot of knockdowns and just hammering the guy.

The gloves seemed pretty big as well. So I also think that was having a bad effect on delivering WC properly. Chain punching with those guys would not work cleanly. Short power was going to be muffled by them. I think that was probably a factor on why he was going for a different way to generate power, which looked like poor boxing, rather than WC. But I'd have to defer to a real boxer as to wether his mechanics were there at all.

Lots more kicks from this guy and more neck clinches. Less throwdowns.
I again give props for stepping onto the floor to throwdown.
A fair journeyman's fight. After all, how many events with gloves has he fought in? In any case he was more aggressive and driven then his opponent. Look at the very opening of the fight. If it had been a streetfight it probably would have ended much sooner. He was all over the guy. Not clean, certainly swarming him--but good aggression.

And again that guy won his bout using HIS WC.

[Vajramusti]

David's review of the first fight was pretty good. I didnt see the second fight.Takes too long to download.

They were fighting san shou format and under san shou rules.

Decent adjustments by the guy in black to the format and its limitations and mufflingof many wing chun strengths that dont come into play in sport situations.

Street situations would bring other things into play. The other guy stood like a standard south paw. The wc guy was more square bodied and adjusted to the south paw fairly well. kept it simple and straight forawrd- no spinning back fists-the other guy
madea poor attempt at one.
The guy on top usually turned well to be on top when they would go down. His bridge was near the guys face several times when going to the mat. In a real fight it could be a major factor.

Nick who was the person in the winners corner? Thanks for sharing.

[Ernie]

very poor

no footwork no control of distance or relating to the person in front of you

just stand there toss out 1 punch or kick rush in smother yourself hug and fall

no power
no body mechanic

i could only stand the first 60 sec

sad to say i do think that was a WSL dude


but at least they got in and tried perhaps in a few years they will wake up:rolleyes:

[Vajramusti]

Those bouncy mats can inhibit footwork.

Glad that they entered the arena. Gain some experience.The nature of the arena- mats and the rules play a role.

No such thing as "typical". Each did their own thing.

[Vajramusti]

Those bouncy mats can inhibit footwork.

Glad that they entered the arena. Gain some experience.The nature of the arena- mats and the rules play a role.

[planetwc]

CHIU HOK YIN, a student of Wong Shun Leung.

Bio of this WC teacher (http://www.chiu-vingtsun.com/main_en.htm)

Chiu Hok Yin

I, CHIU HOK YIN, have been very fond of traditional martial arts since as a child. In my early years, I followed my late master, Wong Shun Leung, to learn martial arts diligently. With his patience in teaching me for a long period, I have been benefited from it profoundly. Besides making my every endeavor to practice Ving Tsun, I have also been trying out and exchanging the techniques of martial arts with other outside schools between 1975 and 1987.


In 1984, I participated in the Guangdong Hong Kong Macau Wushu Fighting Invitation Match as a representative of my master’s martial arts association. After I had won the outstanding award, my master awarded a certificate to me and encouraged me to operate a martial art institution in order to enhance and glorify Ving Tsun by providing more chances for people to learn it.


That’s the reason why I have founded CHIU HOK YIN VING TSUN MARTIAL-ARTS ASSOCIATION (with the government approval). Recently, I have even been elected to be the board chairman of Ving Tsun Athletic Association and become a member of Hong Kong Wushu Union.


I am very glad to tell that one of my disciples has won the outstanding award in the 1999 Wushu San Shou Selection Match. I am quite pleased since I always aim at nurturing posterity enthusiastically so as to preserve the legacy of Ving Tsun and elevate Ving Tsun to a new height.

[Ernie]

Originally posted by Vajramusti
Those bouncy mats can inhibit footwork.

Glad that they entered the arena. Gain some experience.The nature of the arena- mats and the rules play a role.

not having foot work will inhibit foot work
if you got it you can use it no excuses

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by Vajramusti
Those bouncy mats can inhibit footwork.

Glad that they entered the arena. Gain some experience.The nature of the arena- mats and the rules play a role.
Hey Joy, they know they are going to fight on a bouncy matt so they should train to use footwork on it.
PR

[Vajramusti]

David- thanks. I thought that might be him. I knew a guy who took lessons from him at his school when he went to HK.

The match was a san shou format and the guy in black did what was needed to win the match within the restrictions of the rules in place..The guy in black was clearly superior. Showing off was not needed. Young people in a match gaining some experience
in facing someone.. It was their existential moment. "typical" was not the important thing. Sure couldda done this or that- evryone always couldda done this or that.

I noticed Ho Yin at the end not only congratulating him but was still
talking to him in a correcting way- possibly about the match.
Obviously a caring teacher.

[Nick Forrer]

Joy - glad you liked the clips

Granted not much of a WC look but large gloves, san shou format, relative inexperience are all possible mitgating factors that need to be borne in mind. Still he won - and according to the results paradigm often espoused here that is the main thing.

Chi Hok Yin. My teacher comments (alluding to his high skill) 'He never uses bong sau, just jut and lap on the inside and outside of arm'.

Also there is some footage of him demoing at the 99 world conference - san shou and long pole.

[Vajramusti]

Nick- agreed per result criterion. Yes I think that I have seen his
demo.

BTW the Tong per under sifu Au Yeung's leadership is working on a new genealogy book. But the costs for a small spot- 1/4 page is
10,000 HK dollars! A little over $1200 US!
Only the rich can afford that? What do you think about the planned genealogy book- the last one was a disaster. I respect Au Yeung- that is not the problem.

[Nick Forrer]

I might be wrong but the last time I was at my teachers flat he had a copy of a genalogy book on his desk. His name was in it.

However, i have heard him complain about paying a large some of money to VTAA and hearing nothing further. *I think* when he spoke to Au Yeung in Nov that it was a case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing i.e. disroganisation rather than anything more sinister. Still if the VTAA is all we have in terms of an IP man governing body it needs to pull its socks up!
Still lots of politics between the old guys behind the scenes. I think Leung Sheung and WSL were to some extent a uinifying force while they were alive. Still factionalisation and internicine feuding seems to be a fact of human life and not confined to wing chun. I am learning that it is prevalent in BJJ too.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by planetwc

What was your problem with this guy Dale? I'd like to hear the WC view of these fighters first. I'll share my critiques when I have a bit more time. Lately, I've already been spending too much time on those stupid video clips.

[Vajramusti]

Nick- thanks for additional info on the genealogy affair.

Re-politics-ubiquitous- doesnt have to be sinister. For the first genealogy book- Ho Kam Ming didnt send in any materials-
so for the appearnce of completeness- there is a cut and paste job for his picture.

And of course as is obvious- the producer's line had lots and lots of students listed.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by planetwc
And in the end he WON! So kudos to him. Good job. That was him against a resisting opponent. He won? So what? This is supposed to be some sort of championship. If that's considered good martial arts, regardless of style, then we are all doomed..........

I don't think there is anything worthy of praise in either of those clips. I think the only one who wins here is Dale. :o

[Edmund]

As someone who has seen live lots of amatuer Muay Thai and kickboxing, I can safely say that it's typical of any novice bout period.

You can't expect these guys to perform as well as pros or amateurs with lots of experience. Which is why when they are put against pros like Thais, they get annihilated.

The guys in the clips will learn and improve hopefully.

[planetwc]

Yep. The guys in the clips are not pros. It may even be the first event they've sanda fought in. I certainly don't have expectations of them being Lumpini stadium or K1 caliber fighters.

Why is everyone so hard @ss on guys that are just starting out at this?
They have to start somewhere. Let them get more training and more ring/event experience under their belt. I give them kudos for stepping up.

Time and experience will give them more to show.


Originally posted by Edmund
As someone who has seen live lots of amatuer Muay Thai and kickboxing, I can safely say that it's typical of any novice bout period.

You can't expect these guys to perform as well as pros or amateurs with lots of experience. Which is why when they are put against pros like Thais, they get annihilated.

The guys in the clips will learn and improve hopefully.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
There are inherent weakness in SOME systems of Wing Chun...quite possibly.

But within other WC systems it's a different story.

And the INDIVIDUAL use of these systems.

All of this has to be taken into account.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

"OK, so how about critiqueing the weaknesses shown in those clips as compared to how a "stronger" system might do it. Maybe you can even demonstrate these things in your upcoming video clips?" (Knifefighter)



SAW MOST OF THE FIGHT...between the guy with black top and red trunks vs. the guy in red top and blue trunks who was fighting southpaw (the 70kg fight)...about half-way through round two the video cut out on me (and it took forever to download it in the first place).

The guy in black threw some charge-straight-ahead chain punches a few times - usually preceded by a low rear front kick as a set up...other than that...didn't see ANY wing chun at all...

Some of the upper body and double-leg takedowns by the guy with the red top were okay - but his single leg takedowns were poor...and the black top guy's takedowns were horrendous - absolutely terrible!...and the punching usually degenerated into either some bad boxing or elbows-too-flared-out bad wing chun punching...

in other words - while I give them credit for trying...neither fighter was very good.

NOW AS FOR THE WING CHUN I DID SEE...especially in the first round - when the guy in the black top threw a low rear front kick as a setup for the straight blast chain (roll) punches...

This is NOT - I repeat...NOT...good wing chun.

Using such a kick to set up a punching attack is okay...

but the charge-straight-ahead-while-straight-blast-chain-punching-down-your-centerline Wing Chun DOES NOT WORK against a good fighter. This type of Wing Chun is the CLASSICAL MESS.

It's too easy for a good fighter to duck underneath and take you down with a double-leg...or to hook punch you to the head...or lead leg front kick you in the groin...or to SIDESTEP the bull rush and take you out with something from the flank.

In TWC (Traditional Wing Chun) we ONLY use the straight blast AFTER we've secured a line (perhaps set up by a trap or a pinning hand) that leads to making a solid hit... that sets the man up because he's either stunned, or off balance...OR...we've secured a position wherein at least one of his hands is out-of-play. (Again - a trap or pin on one of his arms/elbows).

It all requires a lot more footwork than what's on the video...and a lot more Wing Chun hand (striking,trapping,blocking,deflecting, unbalancing) technique and a lot more kicking technique than what we saw. (And I haven't even mentioned elbow or knee strikes - since I suspect they weren't allowed under the rules of engagement).

[yylee]

The first round, the guy in red is from Dundas MA Assoc where they teach Boxing, TKD, Thai and SanSa.

In the second round the other fellow is a CLF guy.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
It all requires a lot more footwork than what's on the video...and a lot more Wing Chun hand (striking,trapping,blocking,deflecting, unbalancing) technique and a lot more kicking technique than what we saw. (And I haven't even mentioned elbow or knee strikes - since I suspect they weren't allowed under the rules of engagement).
Agreed - although I don't know if more kicking is required, but that's a personal judgement call.

That's why I've been saying, people at this skill level, or lack thereof, should not be sparring. They haven't got the basics and yet their in some sort of "championship". It's like building a house on sand.........

[planetwc]

When should they get their feet wet?

This is probably what the 1950 era teenagers looked like on the rooftops guys. Trying out what they had against guys in other arts with similar level of experience. Charging in straight line and blasting the other guy. What do you think Wiliam Cheung or Wong Shun Leung or Bruce Lee looked like in their FIRST rooftop fight? Like a Jet Li movie? Outtakes from a young tyson fight? The best of Pride 2004? I doubt it.

It is the next progression beyond chi sao and sparring in-house. Going against someone you don't know who studies something else. Someone who is there to pound you and "win".

The expectation is not to judge them at a pro level or even experienced amatuer (ie semi-pro). This is no different than any local tourney in your area. This is not golden gloves, or regional muay thai.

And not every student is going to be "up for" or interested in a sparring tournament. The students in question now know what that feels like and they have video of themselves to analyse with their teacher. Certainly there are a lot of things they can work on and ADD to their training and development. That's the whole point...it is an iterative process.

They need to balance feeling gloving up vs building bad habits. Use the experience to harshly judge what they do have, what they don' have and what just "came out" vs what they train.

[Ernie]

it's not that i would try and see them through a pro filter
i could not be seen through that filter either

it's just bad prep and bad coaching

i would not send some one into a fight with out them having put in the time sparring and developing basic footwork and control distance , timing , etc..

these guys did what i see soooooo many WC people do and other non sparring types

the lack the skill to relate to what is in front of them !

they just do preconditioned techniques and don't even bother to work off the opponents response

it's like 2 people speaking different languages and talking at the same time un able to listen to what the other person is telling them

just a mess

were talking about a sporting event not a street fight , you have time to prep , you have rounds to work off , this like any sporting event a game not a street fight so in this game you ''play'' and you work the skills with in the confines of the game

they guys lacked very basic skills that should have been handled back in the gym

bad coaching in my eyes or lack of knowing how to prep

[mortal]

Ernie just said it all.

The bottom line is they should have been better prepared for that fight. Even if it was their first.

Your skills should be up to par.

[AmanuJRY]

Things we don't know from the videos;

Approximate skill level of the participants (how long have they trained).

Rules of the match

Details of each participants WC instruction (lineage, how/what they were taught).



Without knowing these (and probably more) things about them it's impossible to judge how 'well' they are performing (as it pertains to their WC). Now, we can judge by *our* experience and knowledge of WC and fighting, but, unless we are participating in similar events it's rather pompus for us to be too critical about their performance.

The idea that there should be a length of time or a certain skill level achieved before sparring/fighting is (partially) bogus, IMO. One should not be thrown into the ring and pressured beyond their skill level (at least not too far beyond), however, if their goal is to learn to fight (not just *preserve* an art) then it is a nessisary aspect of training and should begin as early as possible (I would use the person's own motivation as an indication of reddiness for this kind of training).

[Ultimatewingchun]

Bill:

David and Justin are right...These guys are ready to spar.

But the problem is - that they're probably not being coached correctly...as Ernie said.

Their in-house sparring sessions should be constantly interrupted (when mistakes are made)...so that they can "drill" certain moves and responses the right way - and then go back to the sparring. (and of course...the interruptions should include learning/drilling new things as well).

And those interruptions have to be very frequent - since both of these guys still need a lot of work.

But that's probably what they're not getting - hence the poor showing.

All that said, I still agree with David...they're ready to spar...and going into an occasional tournament is (was) doing them some good - because it's valuable experience. Like the man said...when William, Wong, or Bruce first started fighting on the rooftops - they probably didn't look like champs yet either.

You've got to start somewhere.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
David and Justin are right...These guys are ready to spar. I disagree. They're trying to sprint, and they can barely crawl. Maybe it's "bad prep" or "bad coaching", call it what you will. They are not ready for this level of sparring, that is my opinion, which I can see is not widely held. So be it. I believe that the video proves my point.

Justin is right in that there is a lot we do not know about the match. However, what we do know is that they are highly unskilled and not in any way prepared for serious sparring. And do you really think that not knowing the rules has any bearing whatsoever on this. Please, give me a break...........

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by Matrix
However, what we do know is that they are highly unskilled and not in any way prepared for serious sparring. And do you really think that not knowing the rules has any bearing whatsoever on this. Please, give me a break...........

Our not knowing the 'rules' or conditions of the matches has absolutly NO BEARING whatsoever on the preparedness or skill of the participants, and I wasn't suggesting that it did.
It does however have a bearing on how we PERCIEVE their skill.


To use the walking/running analogy, if a person is walking and doing it well does that mean that they will 'look good' running or have 'good form' while sprinting? Or does that come with experience at running? I have seen a toddler, barely able to walk, attempt to run. Should I discourage the child from running until he/she is ready? And finally the big question, when do we know?????????

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by planetwc
Yep. The guys in the clips are not pros. It may even be the first event they've sanda fought in. I certainly don't have expectations of them being Lumpini stadium or K1 caliber fighters.

Why is everyone so hard @ss on guys that are just starting out at this? But these guys are the champions winning in the finals of these events. Assuming you think thety were low caliber fighters, if they are the champions, you've got to ask what is says about, not only them, but all the other kung fu free fight competitors.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
It does however have a bearing on how we PERCIEVE their skill. Sorry, I don't follow. Are you saying the ability to perceive skill is limited by these unknown rules? I think that arguement is a red herring, the skill or lack thereof is plain to see. If you would prefer to rationalize things with these obtuse points, feel free.



And finally the big question, when do we know????????? Ah yes, the "big question". I think Victor gave a reasonably good list of attributes that are required for sparring. Until there is some demonstration of the ability to perform these basic skills, then sparring is counter-productive, IMO. This is my opinion, not a fact. I think sparring is often introduced too soon into the progression, because people want to feel like they're fighting. In fact they're learning how to be sloppy. My 2 cents.

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by Matrix
Sorry, I don't follow. Are you saying the ability to perceive skill is limited by these unknown rules? I think that arguement is a red herring, the skill or lack thereof is plain to see. If you would prefer to rationalize things with these obtuse points, feel free.


Were elbows allowed? What kinds of limitations were there? This can affect how a person spars. Therefore, what we see them doing may not be their best . Do you assume that this is the best example of their skill? I'll agree that it didn't look much like WC (and I'm being nice) and it didn't look like top notch fighting (I kinda liked Phil's description) but have you seen them do chi sau? Or forms?



Ah yes, the "big question". I think Victor gave a reasonably good list of attributes that are required for sparring. Until there is some demonstration of the ability to perform these basic skills, then sparring is counter-productive, IMO. This is my opinion, not a fact. I think sparring is often introduced too soon into the progression, because people want to feel like they're fighting.

I probably would agree with Victor's list of prerequisites (a review would be required to be sure), but, IMO, it will vary from one person to the next. Since we don't all learn at the same rate or in the same way (i.e. some people are more tactile, some are more cognative, etc.) then some may be ready for it and some not, even if they have similar skill levels in chi sau. I'd be willing to bet that for every student who feels 'pushed' into sparring there is one who feels held back from it, this is my opinion not a fact.;)



In fact they're learning how to be sloppy. My 2 cents.

Not if they have good coaching (as has been stated).

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Ah yes, the "big question". I think Victor gave a reasonably good list of attributes that are required for sparring. Until there is some demonstration of the ability to perform these basic skills, then sparring is counter-productive, IMO. This is my opinion, not a fact. I think sparring is often introduced too soon into the progression, because people want to feel like they're fighting. In fact they're learning how to be sloppy. My 2 cents." (Matrix)



Now this is an intelligent argument, Bill. And I have to give you points for it.

But here's how I see it...If these guys (and their instructors) are content with this kind of performance - and go home thinking that they really are "champions" - then they're in for a rude awakening at some point in the
not-too-distant future.

But if they go back into the schools they train in and follow some of the steps I outlined - then they definitely have something to build upon.

They have enough skills to be doing SOME sparring - but they need more work on perfecting their technique. (And learning more technique).

You see - what we really don't know is just what LEVEL OF COMPETITION this event was supposed to be?

Is this particular event supposed to be the "top-of-the-line"...or was it a low-level event within the martial art circles of that particular place?

Was it supposed to be the PRIDE FIGHTING, or the UFC, or the K-1 of the place - or was it more like some local karate-type tournament that every town in North America has at least once a year?

Get my point?

One of the ways that some people within TWC handle this (on the advice of William Cheung a long time ago)...is a 3-to-1 ratio.

He used to say that for every ten minutes you spend sparring you should have spent at least 30 minutes drilling FIRST...one such drill being what he called DIFFERENTIATION.

Your partner will throw either this move or that move at you - and you have to respond with an appropriate counter move...but you don't know which one of the two is coming - and if you miss one - your partner repeats the move you missed before going on to try and fool you about which one is coming next. Then a third move is added to the list...then a fourth, and so on. Then you begin to attack your partner - and he might respond with one of the four moves (or perhaps something else) at the moment you attack - and you have to adjust your attack so that you nullify his move appropriately, etc.

And little-by-little...as moves are being added - it becomes more spontaneous, and starts to turn into actual light sparring. Then the protective equipment is put on and it becomes heavier sparring.

Various people (from various styles, schools, and lineages) have different names and variations on this theme, I'm sure...but this is the gist of it from the TWC perspective.

My point is: the two guys I saw in the 70kg fight were definitely skilled "enough" to be training and doing some heavier contact sparring the way I've described...

but are they doing it?

If they're not - then it's the fault of the instuctor and his training methods.

But it's not their fault - because I think they're both ready for it.

[planetwc]

It says the level of experience among the participants is not high, nor is the development of attributes there yet. If nothing else it was full contact sparring for these guys. That is a good thing right?

So consider it an open sparring event. Isn't that what most of these things are anyway? So it was the finals in sparring and they got a trophy/medal for showing up, gloving up and doin it. After all, they were there, we were not.

That was sparring against a resisting opponent from outside your school--that is a good thing right?

It would be a bad thing IF better training did not occur and improvement on the things Ernie mentioned in his post. As mentioned one of the WC guy's opponents was from a school that also taught Muay Thai. Perhaps he was just taking the TKD classes eh?


Originally posted by Knifefighter
But these guys are the champions winning in the finals of these events. Assuming you think thety were low caliber fighters, if they are the champions, you've got to ask what is says about, not only them, but all the other kung fu free fight competitors.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
Were elbows allowed? What kinds of limitations were there? ............. Grasping at straws.


I probably would agree with Victor's list of prerequisites (a review would be required to be sure), but, IMO, it will vary from one person to the next. No one is trying to offer a cookie cutter answer. Of course it varies from person to person. That's why a sifu or coach must use their discretion here. Let's not try to be master's of the obvious......

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
But here's how I see it...If these guys (and their instructors) are content with this kind of performance - and go home thinking that they really are "champions" - then they're in for a rude awakening at some point in the not-too-distant future. I absolutely agree.
To the rest of your arguement, I would have to say, yes, there's a lot we don't know. However based on what we saw, and that's all we have been asked to judge, then little skill is being shown. The coach has much more insight into the potential of these figthers. I'm sure it is very good. I believe everyone has great potential if it is properly developed.

Thanks

[Knifefighter]

The majority of people here think that these guys didn’t display much in the way of skill. Phil thinks they fought like "girls". Mortal saw no WC displayed. Matrix saw very little skill. Planetwc said there was "more poor boxing than WC". Ernie thought they were "very poor". UWC "didn't see ANY wing chun at all" and thought "neither fighter was very good". Pretty much everybody assumed these guys were not very experienced.

I have a different take on the situation. I think these clips, like the other "kong sao" clips, highlight the glaring weaknesses of WC punching techniques. I believe that the reason you haven’t seen much WC skill in ANY videos is because the majority of WC techniques that everyone spends so much time on and expects to see in a full contact fight just don’t work against an opponent who is going off on you at 100%. About the only two hand "techniques" you will see from a WC guy in this type of situation are an occasional pak sao from medium outside range and sometimes a series of chain puches.

Theoretically, trapping and straight line theory should work very well, especially in the closer ranges. Unfortunately, they just don’t seem to hold up very well when under pressure from an opponent who is free to move, not playing your game, and hitting you back as hard as he can.

What does work are boxing style punches. Boxers know that, on the outside range, you need a good rear cross with lots of body rotation to do significant damage to your opponent. They also know that on the inside close range, you need arc-type punches to develop enough power to do any damage to your opponent. Any newbie discovers this instinctively the first time he has to fight and tries to do real damage to his opponent. This is why you almost always see looping type strikes from the closer ranges from neophyte boxers (who haven’t yet learned to throw good hooks and uppercuts) and WC people (as well as karate and many other kung fu practioners) who have spent most of their training learning only straight punches.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I believe that the reason you haven’t seen much WC skill in ANY videos is because the majority of WC techniques that everyone spends so much time on and expects to see in a full contact fight just don’t work against an opponent who is going off on you at 100%." (KF)


If that's what you believe - then stay tuned. There's a lot more to some Wing Chun styles than just an occasional pak sao and chain punches.

.................................................. ...............................................

"Theoretically, trapping and straight line theory should work very well, especially in the closer ranges. Unfortunately, they just don’t seem to hold up very well when under pressure from an opponent who is free to move, not playing your game, and hitting you back as hard as he can." (KF)

Again - stay tuned.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Pretty much everybody assumed these guys were not very experienced. It's not an assumption. The title page clearly says "New Kung Fu Player Competetion".

In these videos, you see "glaring weaknesses of WC punching techniques." I see people who are ill prepared to spar. In other words, you are blaming the style and its philosophy. While I am saying that the proper progression of training has not been adhered to, so everything collapses under pressure.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Matrix
While I am saying that the proper progression of training has not been adhered to, so everything collapses under pressure. Well, I'm always open to changing my mind. The minute someone can show WC being used successfully and skillfully in this type of environment, I will do that. Maybe Victor's videos will show this. Hovever, until presented with contrary evidence, my opinion will be based on what I have seen and experienced so far.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Hovever, until presented with contrary evidence, my opinion will be based on what I have seen and experienced so far. Fair enough. However, personally I feel no need to convince anyone of anything. I come here just to discuss ideas and concepts. I'm not looking for converts to my way of thinking.

[hunt1]

Knifefighter would you consider the views of Jeff Neal,the head of the Carlson Gracie team or Carlsons opinion on the subject of any value or worth? They are currently training their vale tudo fighters with wing chun for the stand up skills.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by hunt1
Knifefighter would you consider the views of Jeff Neal,the head of the Carlson Gracie team or Carlsons opinion on the subject of any value or worth? They are currently training their vale tudo fighters with wing chun for the stand up skills. I wasn't aware that Carlson's team was using WC. How long have they been doing that?

In answer to your question, I'm not interested in their "views", but what they can use. If Carlson's team is using WC for thier standup training, then their MMA events will show whether or not these WC techniques can or cannot be used successfully. As the saying goes "the proof will be in the pudding". Until then, I remain skeptical.

My prediction is that the only WC technques that Carlson's team will possibly be able to use successfully will be an outside pak sao followed by a series of chain punches, all of which will be heavily supplemented by boxing and Muay Thai.

[rogue]

Here's a link from a search on Carlson Gracie and Wing Chun . (http://www.martialartsnews.co.uk/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=186)

[Stevo]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
I wasn't aware that Carlson's team was using WC. How long have they been doing that?

In answer to your question, I'm not interested in their "views", but what they can use. If Carlson's team is using WC for thier standup training, then their MMA events will show whether or not these WC techniques can or cannot be used successfully. As the saying goes "the proof will be in the pudding". Until then, I remain skeptical.

My prediction is that the only WC technques that Carlson's team will possibly be able to use successfully will be an outside pak sao followed by a series of chain punches, all of which will be heavily supplemented by boxing and Muay Thai.

It will be nice to see you raise your (full) cup and toast them when they do win. Then you can take a sip to help wash down your large slice of humble pie :D :D :D

[hunt1]

Knifefighter, it seems that you have a belief that wing chun doesnt have much to offer real fighting yet you havent really felt good wing chun yourself. Your judgements appear to be made based on vids etc. May I suggest that you visit some wing chun schools and see if anyone is willing to trade leather with you in some friendly sparring. I am sure that in Cali there must be some wing chun peeps that would enjoy spending time with you.

If you ever have reason to travel to Florida I would be more than happy to glove up and have a go. I am sure I could find a few more that would be interested in playing. Who knows maybe I cant fight a lick and have been deluding myself.

[Shadowboxer]

It was suggested last year that he visit Dhira/AndrewS/Ernie in S. Cali to feel some "good WC". I wonder if he has gone to visit these hardcore guys with groundfighting skills? If not, why not?

[Ernie]

Originally posted by Shadowboxer
It was suggested last year that he visit Dhira/AndrewS/Ernie in S. Cali to feel some "good WC". I wonder if he has gone to visit these hardcore guys with groundfighting skills? If not, why not?


i have had some emails with Dale and to be honest , the guy is really cool , if we ever had the chance to hang out i doubt it would get to a ''hardcore'' level

a WC vs BJJ thing , i think that is stupid since styles don't fight people do .
the people that have those type of label hang ups , normally are the arm chair types that wouldn't get in front of anyone to save thier lives ;)

you see there is really nothing to prove , if you have something that works and makes sense to you and your lifestyle

then it's all good

as for Dhira and Andrew , they both have ground game as well
so again it's back to the individual

i think it's very healthy for people to point fingers at our weaknesses lets you see what other people on the outside pick up on

if your training methods cover what is being pointed out then no harm no foul

if not , well :cool:

[Shadowboxer]

I hear ya' Ernie. I'm just wondering why he doesn't take the opportunity (or has he?) to experience some "good WC" from some guys who have ground skills as well?

I'm not into labels either--it IS all good. We've been working groundfighting the past several weeks.

I need to pressure test some more this year.

[Ernie]

Originally posted by Shadowboxer
I hear ya' Ernie. I'm just wondering why he doesn't take the opportunity (or has he?) to experience some "good WC" from some guys who have ground skills as well?

I'm not into labels either--it IS all good. We've been working groundfighting the past several weeks.

I need to pressure test some more this year.

bro,
people just find the path that best suits them based on what they have had exposure to .

maybe next week i will stumble onto a new super art called flying chicken toe thumbjitsu and it will blow all this silly wing chun stuff out of the water ;)

maybe not who knows ?

keep me posted on what you discover as you pressure test , that is were the real gems come from
:D

[Phil Redmond]

Ernie wrote:
>>"maybe next week i will stumble onto a new super art called flying chicken toe thumbjitsu and it will blow all this silly wing chun stuff out of the water"<<

I've been saying that for years. There could some rare, secret family style of kung fu that will blow WC out ot the water. When/if that happens let's see how many people 'jump ship' ;)
Phil

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Ernie
maybe next week i will stumble onto a new super art called flying chicken toe thumbjitsu and it will blow all this silly wing chun stuff out of the water ;) Just think of all the great marketing opportunities you'll have with an 'art' like that. :p