Tien shan Pai Discussion

[smarshall]

(Note: If you cannot read the Chinese characters go here http://njstar.com/ and try the free download)

Greetings Kung Fu Brothers and Sisters,

ÎäÁÖÒ»¼Ò
Wu Lin Yi Jia
¡°Martial artists are one family¡±

My name is Sean Marshall and I am contacting you in the spirit of martial unity. Since we share a similar curriculum I am attempting to contact everyone who would like to contribute information, advise, insight, ideas, research, and experiences. The goal of this networking is to produce more light than heat, therefore I want to apologize up front if I offend anyone with the facts that I present. I believe that we can all benefit from shared experience.
The style known as ¡°Tien Shan Pai¡±

Two things inspired this discussion. One is a recent article in Inside Kung Fu (May 04) titled ¡°Unraveling the Mystery of the Tien Shan Pai¡± by Jonathan Pett Miller (a disciple of Huang ChienLiang). If you would like to read our correspondence please see Addendum 1.The other is the realization that Tien Shan Pai is becoming a much used and much misunderstood term. In an effort to prevent people from trying to monopolize the name I would like to share what I know of ¡°Tien Shan Pai¡±.

But first here is what tienshanpai.org says:

¡°Tien Shan Pai Kung Fu originated in Xinjiang Province in Northwestern China. Legend has it that it was practiced by monks who lived in a temple nestled among the snow-capped peaks of the Tien Shan Mountains. As the story goes, a young herdsman who was searching for lost animals wandered too far from home. The grasslands he knew so well suddenly looked unfamiliar and he realized he was lost. Noticing an old monk with long white beard approaching nearby, the boy stopped him and asked for directions. When he returned to his village, the boy told his mother about the old monk. She replied he had met "Tien Shan Lao Ren", a monk who was noted for his martial arts skills. The mother encouraged her son to find the monk and learn his Kung Fu secret.
The young boy set out to find the old monk. His quest carried him deep into the mountains. He searched for mile after mile, but could not find the old monk. At the point of physical exhaustion, the young boy stopped at nearby stream to quench his thirst. While kneeling by the stream, he saw the reflection of a beautiful temple nestled in a snow-capped mountain. Sensing he was close, the young boy hastened onwards.
After a long trek into the mountains, the boy finally arrived at the temple. However, his hopes were dashed when the monk refused to accept him as a disciple. They were not permitted to teach outsiders, the monk explained. But instead of going home as they suggested, the boy knelt in the snow outside the temple doors, refusing to leave until the old monk would agree to teach him. On the second morning, he was discovered lying unconscious from the cold and was taken into the temple.
Seeing his determination, the old monk reconsidered. Tien Shan Lao Ren decided to teach the boy, whom he nicknamed "Hong Yun" (Red Cloud) because of the mist that rose from his bleeding knees when he was discovered outside of the temple. He stayed in the temple until he grew to manhood, and when he left, he eagerly passed on his skill to other dedicated students. Hong Yun Zu Shi, as the first to teach the monks martial artistry to the outside world, is regarded as the founder of Tien Shan Pai.
Wang Chueh-Jen came from a rich family. His father, Wang Ting Yuen, was a well known Kung Fu Master in Szechuan province. Grandmaster Wang first studied from his father before his father hired a different master to teach him and his brothers at home. Wang eventually inherited the Tien Shan Pai style from 62nd generation Grandmaster Ho Ta-Sun (also known as Ho Yuen-Ching).¡±

From my humble observation there are a few striking problems with this charming story:
1) There are no mentions of a Tien Shan martial temple anywhere in Chinese history. The first mention of it was in the early 70¡¯s (that¡¯s the 1970¡¯s).
2) In China the style is completely unheard of.
3) There are no records or evidence of any of these monks, their students, their students¡¯ students, their family, their achievements, etc.
4) Sixty-Two generations would make Tien Shan Pai over three thousand years old. Compare that to the Shaolin Temple with 34 generations and over 1500 years old (documented with mounds of evidence).
5) This story came to the U.S. around the same time as the KwaiChang Kane story from the Kung Fu series with David Carradine. Its similarity to the ¡°Grasshopper¡± legend is suspect.
6) Sixty-one of the sixty-three generations are ¡°missing¡±. The only names are Wang ChuenJen and his teacher Ho Ta-Sun (also known as Ho Yuen-Ching). The rest of the names are completely unknown (except for the ¡°founder¡± Hong Yun Zu Shi who is unheard of in the martial arts history of China). I have never heard of a lineage where ninety-five percent of the grandmasters are ¡°missing¡±.
7) Many of the forms that we teach were created in the early 1930¡¯s at the NanJing Central GuoShu Institute. They were created by a conglomeration of masters from the JingWu Association and ¡°The Five Northern Tigers¡± among others (See Addendum 2 for more details). This is undisputed.
Because of these unavoidable problems most proponents of this style are well aware of the fact that the name ¡°Tien Shan Pai¡± has no historical connections to Tien Mountain. Also many proponents use the term ¡°Northern Long Fist¡± or ¡°Northern Shaolin¡±. These terms are appropriate since that is what the GuoShu forms have been referred to since its creation. I think that the name ¡°Tien Shan Pai¡± is very catchy. ¡°Heavenly Mountain Sect¡± is the English translation. It is very tempting for people to try to monopolize the name and perpetuate myths in order to ¡°corner the market¡±(see Addendum 3).
Therefore until there is any evidence to the contrary, it is obvious that Tien Shan Pai is really a mixture of GuoShu and other forms, which were introduced to Taiwan by Wang ChuehJen ÍõçåöÎ. He is known to have graduated from the NanJing Central Guoshu Institute so this should not be surprising. Also he was known to have had at least six teachers including his father. Therefore it is not inconceivable that Master Wang created some of the forms in his system based on his vast martial arts experience.

Modern History

Master Willy Lin was the first one to bring the forms of Wang ChuehJen to the East Coast. His book is the most well known documentation of Tien Shan Pai. I believe it is considered a collectors item nowadays. He was the one who taught my Kung fu ¡°Uncles¡±: Masters Dennis Brown, Norman Smith, Tom Hardy, and Clarence Burris. Master C.C. Liu was also a student of Wang ChuehJen and teaches in the D.C. area. These gentlemen formed the nucleus of the Tien Shan Pai family in the U.S. Later they were joined by Huang ChienLiang who learned and was corrected in the ¡°Tien Shan Pai¡± forms from Master Dennis Brown and Master Gene Gause in a basement in D.C. Master Willy Lin himself assigned Dennis Brown and Gene Gause to prepare Huang to run a branch school. There are numerous witnesses to this including other pioneers such as Masters Chuck Jeffries, and Mfundishi Bakari. This modern part of the history of Tien Shan Pai is the half that has never been told.

Sharing of Information

I hope that this has been enlightening. Also I hope that you can contribute to the discussion by sharing your insights and knowledge. I¡¯m sure that we all have more in common than different; nonetheless I¡¯m sure that we can all learn from one another. Personally, I do not feel that the origins of a style are as important as the skill in which it is executed. Nonetheless this journey into the history of these forms has been very a rewarding experience. Honor is an important element of Martial Virtue (WuDe). So let us honor the true pioneers in this style and learn from their experience.

In addition I would like to include all of you on the links page of our website www.jingying.org if you would like (please let me know if you wish to be listed). I recommend that we all do the same in order to build a stronger network of Kung Fu Brotherhood/Sisterhood.

If you do not wish to be part of this discussion, please let me know and I will remove you from the list. Also if you know someone who would like to be included please forward their info to me and I will make sure to put them on my mailing list.

Thank you for your attention and I hope to see you at the next tournament or martial arts function.

Yours truly in unity,

-Sean Marshall

[smarshall]

Addendum 1

This is my first letter raising some pertinent questions regarding Mr. Miller�fs article. It was published in the June 04 issue of Inside Kung Fu. Shortly after it was published I discovered that Huang ChienLiang had forbade his students to speak with me, attend my seminars, demonstrations, or friendly sparring matches. It is very telling that Huang would react to my humble questions and deny his students the valuable experience of martial brotherhood/sisterhood. This attempted censure says much about what kind of moral ground Huang is standing on.
Here is the letter:

�gUnraveling the Mystery?�h

I have a few questions for Mr. Miller regarding �gUnraveling the Mystery of the Tien Shan Pai�h (IKF May 2004).

While I have utmost respect for the skills of your Shifu, Master Huang, I am confused by your mathematics. It has been my experience that every legitimate Grandmaster can trace his/her origins back to the roots of the style. My confusion is in the number of generations claimed by Tien Shan Pai. Out of 64 generations, you have identified only three. I respectfully ask, �gWho are the members of the first 61 and where are all of their collective students, students�f students, family, descendants, relatives, or documented achievements?�h

By comparison, there are many legends surrounding Shaolin Temple, which are known to be based in historical fact. Despite the Shaolin Temple having been burnt down more than once it has spread its arts worldwide. Still, one is hard pressed to meet anyone who knows about this Tian Shan temple. If you or IKF know the location of this legendary temple, please let us know. Many of us would love to visit, compare styles, and identify lineages.

Another point on your mathematics: Shaolin Temple recently celebrated its 1500-year anniversary with just over 30 well-documented generations. That�fs about 50 years per generation, realistic in the martial arts world. Using the same standard for your claim of 64 generations would make Tien Shan Pai almost 3200 years old (about 1700 years before Da Mo is supposed to have traveled to China). Even suggesting an unrealistically short period of 20 years per generation would make Tian Shan Pai 1280 years old. After 1000-3000 years and 61 generations, it would be hard to believe that there exists only one man with complete knowledge of the system. All family trees start with few and end with many. But you appear to be drawing an upside down tree. You say in the article that Tien Shan Pai began with an entire temple of martial monks, then after 63 generations there is only one man. I believe that the many hundreds of talented people who practice these forms and/or believe they are related to Tian Shan Pai deserve a better explanation of their lineage and the development of their style.

Far from �gshedding light�h or �gunraveling the mystery�h, we have been left in the dark and have many more questions. Instead of �gtracing the lineage�h or offering �gcrucial insights�h, you have identified only 3 out of 64 generations and described virtually every single kung fu style i.e. �g�ccharacterized by extended reach, long stances and an abundance of kicking�c�h and, �g�cexcel at close quarters combat; uprooting an opponent�c�h In addition you say Tien Shan Pai has a �gspecial characteristic known as Yin Shou�h. Tell me, what style does NOT use Yin Shou ‰¹Žè a.k.a. Pai Jiao ”�‹r? (Also, how could anyone possibly get Tien Shan Pai confused with TaiJi Quan?)

When I first saw Master Huang on the cover with the title �gUnraveling the Mystery�h, I was hoping to be enlightened, and to have burning questions answered in an unequivocal manner. Instead, your article begs the question: Why would a great Master like Huang Chien-Liang want to link his illustrious career to such fuzzy math?

-Sean Marshall

When I noticed he had submitted a letter to IKF questioning the record of Master Shawn Lu, and I still had not received a response about his claims, I sent him another letter:

Dear Mr. Miller,

I noticed that you recently submitted some questions in the letters section of IKF magazine. You raised some good points, but I believe I also raised some important questions regarding your article �gThe mysteries of Tien Shan Pai�h (May 2004). This letter I sent some months ago to both IKF and to the Tien Shan Pai Association web site. I have never received a response.

After reading your article many people who practice these forms have been calling me asking, how can you justify the title �g64th generation�h when that is mathematically impossible and no one has named the generations 1-61. It seems to me that it is impossible to claim a legitimate lineage unless you can name the individuals whom the art has been handed down from. In my 25 years of practicing Chinese martial arts I have never heard of a Grandmaster who had a �ggap�h in their �gfamily tree�h (much less 95% missing).

I have enclosed another copy of the original letter in case you did not receive it. I hope that you can answer these simple questions about the claims you put forth in your article before you raise questions about some one else.

Thank you,

Sean Marshall
smarshall@jingying.org

[smarshall]

After my original letter was published in Inside Kung Fu, he responded with this letter:

Dear Mr. Marshall,

Thank you very much for your letter. I have reviewed your comments with my
Shih-fu and present you with these thoughts on your questions. You raise
eight points regarding the article, which I will address individually.

Point 1:

You say that it is your "experience that every legitimate Grandmaster can
trace his/her origins back to the roots of the style."

I am intrigued by your statement. I am planning to write an article on
Grandmasters and would be pleased to have your input. Can you provide some
examples of Grandmasters that you consider "legitimate" and able to "trace
his/her origins back to the roots of the style?" What is your standard for
legitimacy of a Grandmaster?

Point 2:

You ask about the "first 61 [generations of Tien Shan Pai] and where are
all of their collective students, student's students, family, descendants,
relatives, or documented achievements?"

I agree with your point. I explicitly noted the lack of information
regarding Late Supreme Master Wang's predecessors. I too am curious about
his predecessors. It was my intention to discuss this matter in public to
encourage anyone with information to come forward.

Please review my article, specifically page 41: "Unfortunately, we have no
information or documents today that can prove the origins of the systems
or set a firm date for its inception." Please also see page 41 to page 42:
"When Wang participated in the Central Kuoshu Academy, it marked the first
time the tien shan pai system was seen in the Eastern part of China."

Next, see page 42: "Once resettled in Taiwan, Wang began teaching martial
arts to the general public again, which marked the first time that the
tien shan pai system was seen in Taiwan." Finally, please see the entire
paragraph on page 42: "Therefore, all evidence indicates that anyone who
today teaches or practices tien shan pai learned from Wang's lineage. If
there are other practitioners of tien shan pai, we have never seen them
nor has anyone come forward with an alternate lineage. In Taiwan, Asia and
the U.S., all tien shan pai lineages converge with Wang."

Point 3:

You inquire about the location of the Tien Shan Pai temple.

We do not have any information on the Tien Shan Pai temple. Like you, I
too "would love to visit it, compare styles, and identify lineages" as you
stated. Again, my article was quite clear that these are "legendary
origins" and a "story."

Many temples were destroyed and/or abandoned. Someday, however, we may
discover this temple. I am also an enthusiast of Chinese art - a field
where new discoveries occur every day. As an example, consider the
terra-cotta army near Xian. In 1974, only 30 years ago, the Chinese
discovered the tomb of the First August Emperor of the Qin dynasty. Qin
Shihuangdi, who ruled in 221 B.C., was one of the most famous Chinese
emperors, indeed one of the most powerful emperors in the history of the
world - comparable to Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, and Napoleon.

And yet, for nearly 2,000 years, no one could locate his tomb. His dynasty
was well documented and there were detailed, credible accounts about the
construction of his tomb. But no one could locate it. About thirty years
ago, some workers accidentally discovered an enormous buried structure
housing thousands of terra-cotta warriors, ancient weapons, and so on. To
this day, artists and historians alike marvel at the complexity and scale
of these tombs. It was an unprecedented archeological find. Here is an
example of a 2,000 year old mystery which was resolved only a few years
ago.

I heard recently that there are so many communities and temples being
discovered in China that the Chinese government does not have the
resources to properly excavate and document them all. Such is the wealth
of history and culture in China that has yet to be uncovered!

Point 4:

You state that I should use a 50 year interval for each generation.

The number of years in the generation is not crucial here. Please see my
statement on page 41: "Without some proof, however, there is no way to
truly date the style."

The substantive points that I discussed were that Tien Shan Pai did not
derive from Shaolin and that it did not originate in the Ming dynasty
(1368-1644 A.D.) as some have claimed. Regarding its origins from Shaolin,
please also note page 41: "I believe that this claim is incorrect or,
better stated, that we do not truthfully know the date of origin."

You expressed concern that dating each generation at 50 years would set
the inception of the system prior to Da Mo. I believe that too much
emphasis is placed on Da Mo. I believe that nearly every culture had its
own martial traditions. Some have disappeared, some have stagnated, and
still others have developed and grown. Martial artists today think that Da
Mo and Shaolin are exclusively responsible for Chinese martial arts. That
is unlikely.

Recently, I have the opportunity to visit the British Museum in London and
view the Parthenon marbles, removed two centuries ago from Athens, Greece.
The Parthenon itself was constructed in the 5th century B.C. As an
historian, I appreciated their significance; as an art historian, I
enjoyed their beauty of form; and as a martial artist, I was intrigued by
the subject matter. These marbles display, among other things, combat
between a group of men and centaurs (half-human, half-horse creatures from
Greek mythology). What I noticed were their fighting methods ¡V chokes,
punches, strikes and front kicks. All of these techniques, similar to
techniques we learn and practice today, were carved into marble 2,400
years ago. If such martial arts were known and documented in ancient
Greece, it is possible that such martial arts existed in ancient China and
may have predated Da Mo.

You also say that "many hundreds of talented people who practice these
forms and/or believe that they are related to Tian Shan Pai deserve a
better explanation of their lineage..." There is an old saying "be careful
what you wish for." Did you know that you are in the Tien Shan Pai
lineage? I will discuss that matter at the end of this letter.

[smarshall]

Point 5:

You state there is an incomplete discussion of the Tien Shan Pai style and
that there cannot be only one man today who has complete knowledge of the
system.

Actually, it is common that only one person in the style has the complete
knowledge of the style; it is the Grandmaster. In an unbroken lineage, the
Grandmaster picks his successor from among his students or disciples, and
then shows the successor (who will become the Grandmaster) the so-called
¡§secrets¡¨ of the style.

I did not state that there is "only one man" in the style. Instead, I
provided some information on what we know of the style and its origins.
Late Supreme Master Wang had other students and they have students. So too
does Grandmaster Huang have students, and grand students, and so on. There
are many Tien Shan Pai practitioners; I never questioned that fact. I
encourage all Tien Shan Pai students to learn more about the other members
of their "family."

Point 6:

You state that the language used to describe Tien Shan Pai is too general.
Again, I agree with you. Martial arts are structural languages, languages
of movement. Words can never fully capture the nuances of a martial arts
style. This is why books and articles are no substitute for the
instruction from a qualified Master.

All martial arts are fundamentally the same, because all humans are the
same. We have legs, so we kick. We have hands, so we strike. The
difference is in the characteristics. However, if all martial arts were
exactly the same, why would we need different styles? The concept of the
style (and this is widely misunderstood) is to emphasize something
different ¡V something special ¡V that the Grandmaster thinks is
important.

Characteristics are like cuisine. I could say that Japanese food
emphasizes seafood and rice. You would respond that there are lots of
cuisines, like Italian cuisine, that use seafood and rice. Yet the flavors
of Italian seafood are not at all like the flavors of Japanese seafood.

To continue the example, too many people today have created a kind of chop
suey, where the original, distinct flavors are lost. They take a little of
this, a little of that, mix it together and expect that no will notice the
taste. I encourage you to raise the standard and demand some pure flavors!


Point 7:

You ask what style does not use Yin Shou. Please see point 6. The
difference is in the characteristic - how it is used - rather than what it
is.

Point 8:

You ask "how could anyone possibly get Tian Shan Pai confused with TaiJi
Quan?"

Many teachers and students have confused Tien Shan Pai with Tai Chi Chuan.
Please see page 22 of the book titled T'ien Shan P'ai Kung Fu, where the
author writes that "T'ien Shan P'ai...includes not only elements of the
Shaolin systems, Ch'i Kung, Ch'in-Na, and wrestling, but also encompasses
the three major internal systems - Tai Chi Ch'uan, Hsing-I and Pa Kua."

Please also see the following websites:

www.hmgongfu.com: "Tien Shan Pai is an eclectic form of Chinese martial
art. It includes the external systems of traditional northern Shaolin Kung
Fu, Chin Na joint manipulation, Swai Chaio wrestling, and Tai Chi Chuan."

http://www.blackbeltuniversity.com/story2.htm: "T'ien Shan P'ai teaches
elements of the Shaolin arts; Tai Chi, Chi Gung, Chin-Na, Ba Kua, Hsing
and Shuai Jiao."

In conclusion:

Mr. Marshall, I'm saving the best for last. Did you know that you are in
the Tien Shan Pai lineage?

I located your martial arts school's website (www.yingjing.org). You list
your primary teacher as Anthony Goh. Shih-fu Anthony Goh studied under a
teacher in Washington DC named Master C.C. Liu. Master C.C. Liu was a
student of Late Supreme Master Wang; Liu was a classmate of Grandmaster
Huang. That means that Anthony Goh is a 65th generation Tien Shan Pai
student and his martial arts uncle is Grandmaster Huang. As Shih-fu
Anthony Goh's student, you are a 66th generation student!

Based on my reading of your school program, several of the forms that you
teach were forms from Late Supreme Master Wang¡¦s curriculum. Perhaps you
recognized them from my article. What I call Chu Chi Chuan, you call "Chu
Ji Quan." What I call Chung Chi Chuan, you call "Zhong Ji Quan" I
mentioned in the article that these two forms came from the Central Kuoshu
Academy. I wonder, what other forms do we share in common? Are you
interested in getting to the source of your lineage?

This is an opportunity for you to re-join your family, like a young cousin
who is learning about his grandfather for the first time. Grandmaster
Huang would be pleased to meet with you in person and discuss Tien Shan
Pai. Since your school is less than an hour drive from Grandmaster Huang's
school, it should be a worthwhile visit. I suggest that you call in
advance to insure that Grandmaster Huang is available when you visit.

I fulfilled the purpose of the article which was "to elaborate on tien
shan pai." Where others make unsupported claims, I spoke quite openly
about what we know and what we don't know. I encourage every style to be
as careful in separating "legend" from "fact." There is too much
exaggeration, myth making and outright fabrication in the Chinese martial
arts today.

Your kung fu uncle,

Jonathan Pett Miller

[smarshall]

Here is my latest response to this:

Dear Jon,

I would like to thank you Mr. Miller for bringing this issue out into the open with your article, now to the heart of the matter.


Your Dubious Lineage

You ask what is my standard for legitimacy of a Grandmaster? Simple, legitimacy is defined as a quality of something, which conforms to, acknowledged standards: complying with recognized rules, standards, or traditions (MSN Encarta Dictionary). Consequently, it is not a subjective standard, but an objective one. In martial arts tradition, a Master becomes a Grand Master in one of three recognized ways; develop an original style or system, to become the repository of all there is to know about a specific style or system, or to have the title passed on from the previous Grand Master (usually involving the second method). In receiving such a title, it is rarely (if ever) given in secret, without witnesses, and without an authorizing document, which includes a copy of the genealogy.

Let me explain genealogy to you. Do you see the numbers that go in front of the word “generation”? They are supposed to represent actual people. In your case it’s “64 generations”. I’ll try to make this as simple as I can for you. Imagine each number is like a mailbox. In each mailbox there should be a name. (In your case a name would do but many people would also prefer a little evidence to go along with each name.)

OK I’ll make it real easy for you. Here’s a list 1-64. I filled in the slots based on the article you wrote. All you need to do is fill in the rest; then the mystery will be unraveled!

1) Hong Yin Chi Shih
2)
3)
4)
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)
11)
12)
13)
14)
15)
16)
17)
18)
19)
20)
21)
22)
23)
24)
25)
26)
27)
28)
29)
30)
31)
32)
33)
34)
35)
36)
37)
38)
39)
40)
41)
42)
43)
44)
45)
46)
47)
48)
49)
50)
51)
52)
53)
54)
55)
56)
57)
58)
59)
60)
61)
62) Ho TaSoon
63) Wang ChuenJen
64) Huang ChienLiang

Until you fill in those blanks your claim is unsupported and to use your words, “There is too much exaggeration, myth making and outright fabrication in the Chinese martial arts today.” Doesn’t your unsubstantiated claim create the same kind of problem in the martial arts community, which you lament? Isn’t this notion of 64 generations, which you can’t even attach names to, one of the largest exaggerations, myths, and fabrications in martial arts today? In one breath you say that it is “just a legend”, then in the next you start throwing around these outrageous generation titles as if they are based on reality. You can’t have it both ways my friend. I have attached a real Grandmaster lineage chart so that you may understand what one looks like (See addendum 1). This myth of yours carried the same weight as your fantastic story of Hong Yun.

Legend of Hong Yun

This legend of Hong Yun you admitted was a “story” or a “myth” or a “legend”. So perpetuating this myth is exactly what you are doing right? What makes this all the more comical is the timing. This myth came to the U.S. around the same time as another similar myth. The similarities between Hong Yin and Kwai ChangKane in the Kung Fu series with David Carradine are very suspect. Doesn’t Hong Yun bring to mind the legend of Grasshopper?

Congratulations on your discovery!

Thank you for your charming story of your visit to a museum. Also thank you for proving my point. As you demonstrated, there is an overwhelming amount of evidence of the ancient Greek martial arts. In contrast there is not one shred of evidence of a martial temple on Mount Tien.

But I am proud of you for discovering that there were martial arts practiced in ancient Greece. (I have won gold medals competing in Athens and I’ve visited the Parthenon and trained alongside great martial artists there.) Did you know that there were martial art systems in Africa even before the Greeks? But I don’t think that you will find anyone claiming to be 64th Generation Grandmaster of the Mount Kilimanjaro Fist Style! It sure does sound nice though doesn’t it? Sort of like how Tien Shan Pai seems to just roll of the tongue. It’s even easy for westerners to say! I suppose it would be tempting for folks to try to monopolize the name Tien Shan Pai. Like for instance by creating and perpetuating myths and legends one could convince folks that they are the only ones capable of transmitting the “secrets”. By the way, why are the only schools listed on your web site members of your organization? Are they the only legitimate schools of Tien Shan Pai that you know of? If that’s the case I think it’s time for you to come out of your shell and see that there are many other talented people practicing the same forms.

Why 64?

The title of your article was not “Elaborating on Tien Shan Pai” but “Unraveling the Mystery of the Tien Shan Pai” yet you still have not elaborated or unraveled. It seems to me that if you advertise a title like “64th Generation” than you must be able to back that up with some kind of historical evidence. You make the claim; you carry the burden of proof.
If you feel it advances your career to include me in your family than go ahead. But you may not bestow the title 66th generation on me. I have no use for it and frankly it holds no relevance outside of your imagination. Mathematically it is impossible and you can’t even name ninety five percent of these Tien Shan Pai ancestors. This is just silly. Why do you choose 64 generations (beside the obvious BaGua reference)? Why not 108, wouldn’t that sell even better? Therefore don’t include my name in this foolishness.

Illogical comparison

It is also silly to compare Tien Shan Temple to Qin ShiHuangDi’s tomb. As you said yourself “there were detailed, credible accounts about the construction of his tomb”, but it had yet to be discovered (By the way, I have to correct you. It was not “workers” who discovered the tomb, but farmers who were digging a well. In 2001 I got to meet one of the last surviving farmers who stumbled upon this breathtaking tomb). So thank you for proving my point once again. There are no “detailed, credible accounts” or even any evidence of this Tien Shan Temple, in fact, the only people who believe it’s real are the ones benefiting from the belief in its existence. Archeologists tend to search for things they suspect exist that is why there is no archeological search for this mythical temple. Why would they waste their time searching for something based on the word of one man who had never even been there? This story never appeared anywhere until the 1970’s. There is far more proof available in the existence of Atlantis than this temple you rest your credibility on.

Unsupported claims

You said, “Where others make unsupported claims, I spoke openly about what we know and don’t know.” So please address these unsupported claims of yours:

List of Jon Pett’s unsupported claims

1) Huang ChienLiang is 64th generation – You offer no proof that there exists more than 3 generations. UNSUPPORTED

2) Tien Shan Pai was founded in a martial arts temple on Tien mountain in XinJiang Province – Where’s the Temple or the proof of its existence? Can you name one gong fu school in this region that teaches Tien Shan Pai? UNSUPPORTED

3) You base the origin of Tien Shan Pai on an entire temple of martial monks practicing Tien Shan Pai some 3,000 years ago – There is not one shred of evidence of these monks besides your word. No records, descendants, students, nothing. You are the main ones benefiting from the perpetuation of this fabrication. UNSUPPORTED


4) You say, “There is no mention of Shaolin in the legendary origins of Tien Shan Pai.” – How do you know? There is no proof at all in these fabricated legends. UNSUPPORTED

5) Hong Yin Chi Shih is regarded as the founder of Tien Shan Pai – Who are his disciples? Where’s the historical evidence that he even existed? His name has never been heard of until the 1970’s. UNSUPPORTED


6) You claim that Grandmaster Wang ChuenJen bypassed dozens of his senior disciples and handed over the title of “standard bearer” in private, with no witnesses, to Huang ChienLiang, who was, in fact, a junior student. This is unheard of in Chinese martial arts. The burden of proof for this claim is on you so until you can substantiate this claim with proof or an eyewitness account it too is – UNSUPPORTED

[smarshall]

Do you believe Grandmaster Pui Chan is a Liar?

During the 2004 U.S. International Kuoshu Championship Grandmaster Pui Chan was overheard telling your classmates to bow to their grandmaster who had just walked in. (Dave Cater was right there if you would like to know.) Imagine their surprise to learn that the man who taught Huang ChienLiang Tien Shan Pai, in a basement in D.C., was none other than Master Dennis Brown. Master Brown was assigned to teach Tien Shan Pai to Huang by Master Willy Lin and the eyewitnesses, who were around back then, including classmates of your master, have confirmed this. Why is Master Brown or Master Lin not credited with this on Huang¡¯s Tien Shan Pai website?

Thank you for your invitation to visit with Master Huang but I am going to decline. Although I would recommend that you drive one hour to D.C. so that you may learn from Master Dennis Brown. You may want to know that I have never lost to any of Huang¡¯s students in forms, weapons, or sparring divisions ever. If you ever venture out of the KuoShu tournament you may confirm this fact yourself.

Learn History

Before Huang ChienLiang began learning and being corrected by Masters Willy Lin and Dennis Brown, Master Anthony Goh was already an undefeated full contact fighter and recognized master on two continents This is before he even came to the U.S. opened a school and picked up some forms from Master C.C. Liu. In addition, Master Goh¡¯s curriculum reflects his years of full contact training and actual combat experience. Since Master Goh is my Sifu and I teach his curriculum, I trace my lineage through his Sifu in Malaysia. Therefore, sorry to disappoint you, there is no need for me to call you ¡°uncle¡± as you desire.

In closing, as a kung fu brother I forgive you for your condescending tone because I know that you are only parroting the words of your Sifu. However, as a writer, I do not forgive you for your shoddy research. Nonetheless could you tell us what titles has Huang ChienLiang won, if any, in martial arts competitions?

Straight answers this time please. You may save your culinary preferences for another discussion, just stick to the issues.

Your brother in martial arts,

ÎäÁÖÒ»¼Ò


Sean Marshall

Addendum 1


Chen JiaGou TaiJi Quan Lineage of 11th Generation Grandmaster Chen ZhengLei

1) Chen WangTing
2) Chen RuXin
3) Chen DaKun
4) Chen ShanTong
5) Chen DingWang
6) Chen ChangXing
7) Chen GengYun
8) Chen YanNian
9) Chen DengKe
10) Chen ZhaoPei and his brother Chen ZhaoKui
11) Chen ZhengLei

Note for Jon ¨C Notice that all 11 slots are filled in with names. Grandmasters tend to keep track of these things over time. I hope this helps you with your book. I would suggest that before you research other Masters you first finish the research for your own since you are missing 95% of the lineage holders.

[smarshall]

Addendum 2

Some common forms of Tien* Shan Pai ÌìɽÅÉ

¹úÊõ GuoShu Forms

1) ³õ¼¶È_ ChuJi Quan ¡®Primary Fist¡¯
2) Á¬²½È_ LianBu Quan ¡®Linking Steps Boxing¡¯ (aka ÁúÈ_ Long Quan ¡®Dragon Fist¡¯)
3) Öм¶È_ ZhongJi Quan ¡®Intermediate Fist¡¯
4) ¹¦Á¦È_ GongLi Quan ¡®Power Development Fist¡¯
5) Âú½_ºì ManJiang Hong ¡®Whole River Red¡¯

ÃÔ×Ù Mi Zong ¡®Lost Track¡¯ Forms

6) ¼±È_ Ji Quan ¡®Sudden Attack¡¯

°Ë¼«È_ BaJi Quan ¡®Eight Extremes Fist¡¯ Forms

7) °Ë¼«È_ BaJi Quan ¡®Eight Extremes Fist¡¯

²éÈ_½ÌÃÅ Cha Quan Jiao Men ¡®Cha Fist Sect Boxing¡¯ Forms

8) µ¯ÍÈ Tan Tui ¡®Spring Leg¡¯

Ô§ÑìÈ_ Yuan Yang Quan ¡®Mandarin Duck Boxing¡¯ Forms

9) Ô§ÑìÆ× Yuan Yang Pu ¡®Mandarin Duck¡¯

Ëïë÷È_ Sun Bin Quan ¡®Sun Bin Boxing¡¯ Forms

10) ÈýÊ®¶þËïë÷ San Shi Er Sun Bin ¡®Thirty Two Sun Bin¡¯

ÁºÉ½È_ Liang Shan Quan ¡®Liang Mountain Boxing¡¯

11) Ê®¶þÍÈ ShiEr Tui ¡®Twelve Kicks¡¯
12) Á¬»·ÍÈ LianHuan Tui ¡®Continuous Linking Kicks¡¯
13) ÷»¨È_ MeiHua Quan ¡®Plum Flower Fist¡¯ (aka ÉÙÁÖÈ_ ¡®Shaolin Fist¡¯)
14) СºìÈ_ XiaoHong Quan ¡®Little Red Fist¡¯

Note: This list certainly does not reflect everyone¡¯s curriculum nor is it complete or detailed. If you can contribute to this research, please contact me at smarshall@jingying.org.

* The PinYin Romanization of Tien is Tian (Ìì). This is the same character as in TianAn Men Square Ìì°²ÃÅ. PinYin is the standard romanization for Mainland China. If you are looking for it on a map, most likely it will say Tian Shan Ììɽ.

[smarshall]

Addendum 3

Five Reasons Why Huang ChienLiang is not the Grandmaster of Tien Shan Pai


1) Tien Shan Pai absolutely DID NOT come from Tien* Mountian

There are no records of a temple of martial monks practicing on or near Tien Mountain or even the entire XinJiang province where the mountain range is located. This is right along the Silk Road. Therefore based upon the location of the Tien Shan Range along what was the Silk Road (beginning in the 2d Century B.C.), lack of knowledge, reporting or other documented observations or emigration of practitioners of Tien Shan Pai to Eastern China or to the Mediterranean is remarkably improbable. This is especially true when considering, by comparison, the wide range through which the Shaolin systems have spread. Given the number of generations, with an accepted value of 30 ¨C 35 years per human generation (an objective value ¨C MSN Encarta), Tien Shan Pai would have pre-dated Shaolin by 500 to 700 years (round numbers). Consequently, traders would have to have missed the existence of the temple and the practitioners for a period of 1100 years (the Silk Road originated ca. 200 B.C. and reached its decline ca. 900 A.D.). Although the Tien Shan Range is in northwestern China, it is not HISTORICALLY remote. There are substantial records from 2nd Century B.C. through 10th Century A.D. That such a landmark would not have been noticed, observed or recorded is highly improbable. This would be akin to long haul truckers passing through New York City over a period of 1100 years and not being aware of St. Patrick¡¯s Cathedral.

The forms most closely associated with Tien Shan Pai are undoubtedly Guoshu forms. I have seen the forms in the official GuoShu books and one of my coaches, Lu XiaoLin, who studied wushu professionally in Sichuan Province (where Wang ChuenJen is from), recognizes the forms, which she learned during her basic training. She saw a videotape of Master Wang ChuenJen performing the Tien Shan Pai system and instantly recognized the forms as the GuoShu and local Sichuan forms she had learned in ChengDu.

Master Wang ChuenJen is from Sichuan Province. He is known to have graduated from the Central GuoShu Institute. Therefore it is not surprising that his curriculum was GuoShu forms. He moved to Taiwan and began teaching there under the name Tien Shan Pai. Master Willy Lin¡¯s uncle Lin ChongKwan, was the first one to bring Tien Shan Pai to the U.S. He taught in Cincinnati 1960-61. Master Willy Lin was the first person to bring Tien Shan Pai to the East Coast. Master Dennis Brown was his senior disciple. He was assigned to teach and correct Huang Tien Shan Pai by Master Willy Lin. This he did in a basement in D.C. I learned of this not on Huang¡¯s website, but by asking people who were witness to this. A good authority on this subject is Grandmaster Pui Chan. He was around back then and was good friends with Master Willy Lin.

2) Sixty-Four Generations do not exist

It is unheard of for a Grandmaster to base their title on a genealogy that does not exist. The sixty-four names do not exist, only three (including Huang). Furthermore this figure would be mathematically impossible. We would have to agree that Tien Shan Pai is over 3000 years old for this to be true, but with no historical evidence. This is the height of folly.

3) Master Willy Lin assigned Master Dennis Brown to teach and correct Huang QianLiang Tien Shan Pai

Master Dennis Brown was the signatory for Huang to come to the United States and he was the one to pick him up at the airport. Working for Master Willy Lin, it was Master Browns job to teach Tien Shan Pai to Huang, which he did in a basement in D.C. At that time Huang was performing sai and nunchuck and was just beginning his studies in Tien Shan Pai. In addition Huang¡¯s curriculum is different from many other Tien Shan Pai stylists due to the fact that he later learned from Master Dennis Ho in the Ground Earth Style.

4) Huang QianLiang claims that the title of ¡°Grandmaster¡± was bestowed upon him by Wang ChuenJen

There are no witnesses to this. This would mean that Master Wang would have bypassed dozens of his senior disciples (including Master Willy Lin, and his senior classmate Master C.C. Liu among many others), and secretly blessed Huang with this title. Having spoken to those that knew him, I don¡¯t think he would be so unwise.

In Taiwan, among those that still practice his system, Huang is unknown and certainly not regarded as a ¡°Grandmaster¡±. One of the top fighters from the Taiwan school, ÎâÃ÷ÕÜ was also called ¡°·ÉëÍÈ¡± by the Hong Kong newspapers because of the speed of his kicks. He doesn¡¯t know Huang and laughs at the notion of his claim. On Master Wang¡¯s own programs his senior disciples are pictured and listed by name; Huang is not among them. In this matter, the burden of proof is on Huang. Furthermore, Master Wang¡¯s own daughter, ÍõµÂÈÝ, says that her father never mentioned anything about 63 generations of Tien Shan Pai. She also says that there is no way her father taught Huang Gong Fu due to the crippling effects of her father¡¯s liver cancer. In addition Huang did not attend Master Wang¡¯s funeral or send money to his family.



5) Students cannot promote teachers

Master Wang ChuenJen never referred to himself as ¡°Grandmaster¡± or ¡°Supreme Grandmaster¡± as Huang claims. Huang himself bestowed these titles upon him later. I know a few true grandmasters that do not call themselves ¡°Grandmasters¡±. And they certainly do not force their students to call them by such a title as Huang does.

Conclusion: The Emperor wears no clothes.

* In Pinyin Romanization ¡°Tien¡± is spelled ¡°Tian¡±. PinYin is the official rominazation of the Chinese Government. Therefore if you wanted to find it on a map it would most likely be spelled ¡°Tian¡±.

[Royal Dragon]

Ok, so it's just a generic Shaolin system. It's the name of someones Shaolin school. A club name, and not the name of a style.

There are some half truths and lies about it's origine. The question I have, is this, is it a good, and fundementally correct system, or is it like Chung Moo Quan or shaolin do and fundementally askew at the core?

[shaolintim]

Live and let live!

[Royal Dragon]

Fraud needs to be exposed.
If the Tein Shan Pai is just a name for someone's Shaolin school, and not a unique style unto itself, that should be brought to light.

Take me for example. I do Tai Tzu Chang Chuan. However I learned it by collecting bits and peices of it fomr wherever I could. Even though I have a complete Northern system it's actually made of two Northern Tai Tzu styles combined. (The Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, and Hong Chuan).


If I ever teach it, I'm not going to make up 64 generations and pretend it's a pure lineage. I'm going to say I'm teaching the result of my research into the art, and the students are getting a "Mad Sampler" of Tai Tzu from many lieages and gepgraphic locals.

THAT is honest, and respectable. My TaiTzu may be a "*******ized" lineage to a purist, but even they will respect the honesty. Especiually if I point students to them for things I cannot pass.

But when someone just starts making things up to sell themselves, that is fradulant. THAT is what causes controversy, resentment, and lack of respect in the arts.

I have allways found that people respect you more if you just admit your faults, and move on, then try to hide them. At least you can be trusted then.

Is Tien Shan Pai a legit style?From the above, it seems it's someones version of modern Northern Shaolin, so it probably is. Lest see it called what it is so it does not carry a black mark like so many other schools who are just out for the $$

If it IS what is claimed, lets see the proof. Even in something as rare as Tai Tzu, I can point to General Qi Jiguang who documented it in like 1644 (Think thats the right date)

[shaolintim]

Trouble is you ask some people what time it is. They wan't to tell you how to build a watch.

[Royal Dragon]

True, but what if you want to build a watch?

[smarshall]

Greetings Royaldragon,
I can’t comment on Chung Moo Quan or shaolin do, but I love this system. I suppose one could say it is an “eclectic” system in that the forms are from a few different sources. But all the forms have the same character so it is a good system for building a strong foundation. I didn’t fully appreciate it until I began studying modern wushu. Every style I have studied including drunken, monkey, mantis, chang quan, nan quan, etc has moves that I can easily relate to due to my previous training. It is definitely northern flavor, but not ALL kicking. It has a good blend of hand, foot, qin na, shuai jiao, etc.
You are right that it doesn’t matter where the system comes from. If it’s good it’s good. It’s when you add fraud to the equation, then there’s a problem. Not just for some, but for all of us.
Warmest,
-Sean

[smarshall]

Dear Wolfen,
I think the book is more of an introduction to Tien Shan Pai. Personally I find it very difficult to learn martial arts from books. You should keep it though because it might be worth some money as it is out of print now and much sought after. I only mentioned the book to give credit to Master Lin who was THE Pioneer of Tien Shan Pai in the U.S. The interesting part about it is that after master Lin wrote the book he had the opportunity to go to Tien Mountain and meet with local masters including Masters in their eighties with long white beards. He also explored all around the mountain trying to find evidence of the temple his master told him of. He was shocked to realize that the whole story had in fact been fabricated. He said that after he told his Sifu about his trip, his Sifu never mentioned the Red Cloud story again. Huang didn’t bother to research for himself and basically took the ball and ran with it. He has made a lot of money by convincing people of this false history. I am here simply to squash this fraud once and for all.
Peace,
-Sean

[Tainan Mantis]

I met master Wang Juezhen in 1989.
I attended his public and private classes.
My shifu, Shi Zhengzhong, is his last and most important disciple.
I say most important becuase my shifu took full responsibility for cleaning and preparing GM Wang for the hereafter.

During Master Wang's final years he stayed at My Shrfu's home every weekend and taught advanced classes.
My Shfu also has a large catalog of Master Wang performimg on videotape.

Master Wang taught a variety of styles and called his system Tien Shan Pai.
64 was likely chosen as it is a perfect number.

His most important contribution are his longfist forms, which are similar to cha chuen, but somewhat different.

If he created them or modified them himself will never be answered, but most of the forms he taught are from different styles.

EG
baji
bagua
taiji
xingyi
weapons

From what I have seen and been taught of his fighting method I conclude, as my Shifu did, that he was a top notch teacher with a very deep understanding of actual fighting.

[smarshall]

Dear Tainan,

Thank you very much for your insights! I am in the process of writing a series of articles on the style and this is just the kind of info I was looking for. Where did you meet Master Wang and where did you study with him? Could you tell me what are the characters for master Shi’s name? I would love to get in touch with him. Do you think he would be willing to do a small interview? I could even submit the questions via email.
Master Lin spoke to Master Wang’s daughter recently and she said that her father never mentioned anything about 63 generations. I believe that that was an embellishment later added by Huang to promote himself to 64th generation. Why he would choose an obvious bagua number, outrageously inflated, is beyond me. Also beyond me is why so many people would believe it.
After training in this system for so long I truly want to find out more about him from as many sources as possible. I hope you can help me and thanks again,
Sean

[smarshall]

Greetings Wolfen,

I believe we had a small misunderstanding. There is a difference between learning a martial art (with the hope of one day mastering it) and learning ABOUT martial arts. I didn’t say I “can’t learn martial arts from a book”; I said it was “very difficult”. I was comparing learning martial arts from books compared to studying with qualified teacher. I have successfully done both but with much more success with coach. This was meant more as a general advice for beginners and not personally to you. Anyway the book does have a very good representation of Master Lin’s favorite form ChuJi Quan. He shows the solo and two person sets I believe. The part I like the best is Master Brown’s awesome seventies Afro. Sorry to be so shallow.
You are right though, back then who would have imagined the Internet? Who would have imagined China opening its borders like it has now? It has been a long-standing tradition for martial systems to “embellish” their humble beginnings, but that ish can’t fly in the information age. Master Lin is still in the D.C. area but he is not teaching. Although he might be willing to do a series of seminars at Jing Ying later this year. I’ll keep you posted if you wish.
My Sifu never used the term Tien Shan Pai because he always knew that it had no connection to Tien (Tian) mountain. He didn’t come up with the Tien Shan Pai folks; he learned some of the system from his friend C.C. Liu later in his career. He was an undefeated full contact fighter in southeastern Asia. He’s from Malaysia, his Sifu is Fu LinBao. Therefore he was never obliged to carry the name. The forms are from different sources most famously GuoShu. Therefore he could just as accurately call it Guoshu. These forms have always been referred to as “Northern Shaolin” or Northern Longfist”. So all these are accurate. Chinese martial arts are often famously centered on mountains. TaiShan, WuDang Shan, Emei Shan, Song Shan etc. That is why the Tian mountain was chosen. It didn’t hurt that it was the most remote. Nowadays the forms are becoming quite popular here on the East Coast.
I took a Qin na seminar with Master Yang. Some of the forms I’ve mentioned are in his book “Northern Longfist” which I used as a reference for my research.
I study traditional Chen JiaGou TaiJi. I’ve hosted seminars at Jing Ying with Master Chen ZhengLei and his son Master Wang HaiJun. I’ve also taken seminars in Va and Md with Chen XiaoWang and Zhu TianCai. Also a gentleman named Master Li taught me some Chen push hands in Xian. My Chen coach is Master C.P. Ong.
Talk later,
-Sean

[cerebus]

Don't worry about "Woofin", he's just the new forum troll trying to get a rise outta you. As we say when he makes a fool of himself (which is often lately):

"Pay no attention to woofin. We taught him wrong...as a joke." :D

[Tainan Mantis]

S,
I did not study with master Wang, sorry to mislead you. It was an accident.
I attended 2 of his classes ad watched him teach and perform.
My Shifu studied with him for many years and is listed on The Mantis Cave under Mimen Praying Mantis.

About the interview we can talk in private.

GM Wang did say 64 generations as well as using the term Tien Shan Pai.
Huang Chienliang is a long time disciple of his.
I met him when he came to visit my Shifu many years ago.

Chu Jichuen is the first of 3 basic forms.
This form is a combination of Baji, Shaolin and PM.
It was taught to the military as part of their curriculum Pre WW2.

This form was also performed with a bayonet.

The second form is called Zhong Ji Chuen and follows the same principle of including its partnerset within itself.

I wrote an article about this for Mantis Quarterly which you can find out about on the Mantis forum here.

Chu Ji Chuen, being a military form, is somewhat well known.

Up until recent times and even today in some of the modern military units the soldiers are taught kung fu forms.

When my shifu was an MP their form was Da Baji.

In the olden days the form was the primary methof of recognizing your place in the military.

EG, after battle when the stragllers returned to camp they could only prove their rank by the form they could demonstrate.

[FranklinFick]

Hi,

this is a little of the topic.

I studied a little Tien Shan Pai with a student of Dennis Browns' in Maryland for about 4 years.

I would be interested in finding out some more information on the two forms that i learned.

Chu Chi Chuan
Chung Chi Chuan

It was posted previously that Chu Chi Chuan is a combination of Baji, Shaolin, and Praying Mantis. and that it was taught to the millitary.

i would be interested in finding out any history on these 2 forms- when they were created, by whom, what styles they consist of.

also it was mentioned that these were goushu academy forms. which goushu academy and are there any references for these forms either in chinese or english (i already have the tien shan pai book by willy lin)

thank you for any help.

Franklin

[smarshall]

Thanks Cerebus,
I know how easy it is for misunderstandings to arise in these types of forums.
Peace,
-Sean

[smarshall]

Dear Franklinflick,
Those two forms ChuJi Quan and ZhongJi Quan or Primary Fist and Intermediate Fist are certainly GuoShu forms. They were created in the 30’s at the Central GuoShu Accademy in NanJing. They are very well documented in the Chinese Government published books on GuoShu. The ISBN code for the book is 80630-055-4/k 560 but it’s all in Chinese. It’s laughable for Huang to take credit for these forms when their true origins are so well documented. They are great forms though.
Peace out,
-Sean

[stimulant]

I havent read all the replies...

but I know someone 'in the know' who knows grandmaster huang well.

From what i've been told, it is a relatively new style and the reason it has so many generations is that they counted people on the same generation as different generations.

Though your guess is as good as mine as to the truth.

[FranklinFick]

thanks sean

i was wondering what the title of the book was...

either in chinese characters, or pin yin

i am not having any luck with the isbn that you listed...

can you check it or maybe you could point me in a direction of where the book might be available..

thanks

franklin

[FranklinFick]

Tainan Mantis,

i was looking for information on the article that you mentioned and i could not find anything...

i was hoping that you might put me on to the right path...

thanks
franklin

[Oso]

anyone got pics or vid of this being performed as the bayonet set?

that would be cool as hell and really, imo, a twist on teaching something 'traditionally' if not immediately practical....but it could be practiced w/ a 5' spear for the same affect....actaully, that would be realllly cool.

[Tainan Mantis]

FranklinFick,
Mantis Quarterly's first issue can be downloaded for free.
Under the name Kevin Brazier, me, is an article about 2 man forms.
I mention those forms in the article.

The bayonet set is on film, but I have not seen it.

[FranklinFick]

thanks tainan mantis...

As we are talking about the Tien Shan Pai curriculum....

i learned a drill called wheel fist... and was told that it was a complete shaolin style but only had 3 movements...

does anyone have more info as to the origins of this drill...

(it is a good set and i was taught that you can change the direction of the next movement and just keep going forever... good training)

thanks
franklin

[yu shan]

I was taught this entry level form. Simple yes, the partnered form is quite nice, and the two-person exercises out of the form can be intense.

TainanMantis

Did Master Shr teach you Zhong Ji Chuen? I would like to see/learn this form.

[Tainan Mantis]

Franklin,
Your Wheelfist sounds like fanche of mantis.
It is as you describe.
Where did you get it from?

Yushan,
I did learn the solo and partner of Zhongji chuen.
When Shifu went to HK to study with Zhao Zhuxi, Mantis108's shifu, he gave us homework to drill the 2 man set 300 times before we could learn the next section.

Later I drew the entire form for 2 poeple as a partner set so that I wouldn't forget it.

This is what got me into the habit of drawing and then just writing all the forms as partner sets.

[Pork Chop]

Tainan

I thought the exact same thing.

My recollection of fan che in mantis was more of a punching combo, somewhat similar in concept (ie a continuous long arm combo) to choy lay fut's "gwa sow charp".

What i saw of the tien shan pai drill was more of an "set up, entry, finish" type combo for a throw.

I admit I could totally be wrong in both circumstances; but I used to train mantis and had a little experience with dai fan che, plus I also recently saw the TSP drill.

I have no opinion or ground to stand on as far as the rest of this thread goes.

[FranklinFick]

**** man i posted a long reply but the site timed out whe i went to post it... so i will try to remember what i wrote...



Tianan Mantis...

i learned wheel fist when i learned a bit of tien shan pai...

i will try to put a small clip of it up tonight some time and post it here for you to see if it is similar to fanche from mantis...

do you have any clips of fanche... i would be interested in seeing it if they are similar...

i would be interested in exchanging info on the chuji and zhong ji that i learned...

the chu ji that i learned even though it came from willy lin is slightly different from the one that he shows in his book on tien shan pai... are you familiar with the book... if you are is your set the same as the one he shows...


also i found clip of zhongji on th net
http://www.uskuoshuacademy.com/120.mpg

is the zhong ji that you learned similar to this one...
how did you learn the trap and punch right befoe the side kick in the second part.... is it the same as the trap near the end of the fist part of chu ji

Thanks
Franklin

[Tainan Mantis]

BMB,
We really have to see and compare to know.

Franklin,
Thanks for the clip.
Is that you?
Very nicely done.
That form is close enough to mine that we can do the partner set the 1st time.

The trap punch you mention we call seal and punch.
About the same as you here, but need to be in person to notice the subtle dif, if there is one.

ON Mantis board search quicktime and you will see a thread that leads you to many clips of me.
Though no specific fanche.

I do not have Willy's bbok.

[yu shan]

Tainan Mantis

My Shifu has spoke of your drawings, well done sir. I`d love to learn Zhongji chuen sometime. Is the partnered form taught like Chuji chuen two-person? And thanks FranklinFick for the visual, very nice.

[cerebus]

Whenever the sytem "times out" when you post a long response (you hit "post" & it brings you to a sign-in screen), just sign in then hit your "back" button 'til you get back to your post and hit the "post" button again. It works for me.

[FranklinFick]

Tainan Mantis

I got home late... but went out and shot a quick little demo of the wheel fist that i learned
here it is...

http://www.angeltowns.net/membercenter/100/shenlong/ikf/wheelfist.mov


please let me know if this is similar to the mantis fanche that you were talking about...


also the clip of zhongji is not my clip... i just found it on the net..


Cerebus
thanks i will try that next time it happens... man that is frustrating to type that much and loose it... (i type slow...)

Franklin

[Tainan Mantis]

Yushan,
John knows that form if I am not mistaken.
The concept of both forms is the same.
That is to say the first half fights the second half.
Also like this for san tsai jian, another form of GM Wang.

Also a stick form we do 18 moves of Shaolin stick.

Franklin,
I recognize the drill you are doing.

The down ward strikes ar part of fanche, but this drill is not part of Mantis.
Though you can get an idea of what fanche is about from this.

BTW, we do this slightly differently, but in principle it is the same

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Just watched the wheelfist video. I love this move and it's found in Leen Sow Kuen, a set from Yin Chin Kung Fu I learned from Lu Jinhai. I used this move in my WL First Form partner set.

Wah Lum usually goes into Fanche starting off with a Gwa Choy although in Straight Form it comes off a Soy Long Pow Choy, which can be used as a clearing block just like the wheelfist block.

I have a stationary drill that utilizes these moves for loosening and building the shoulders.

[Oso]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis


Also a stick form we do 18 moves of Shaolin stick.



coincidentally, yu shan and I just learned this set last weekend on our visit to Tampa.

very nice and fun set with, IMO, readily accesible techniques for sparring w/ staff.

Shaolin Shr Ba Gin (???) gin..gun something like that is 'stick', correct???

[Pork Chop]

errr just to keep from looking like a complete idiot, i'd just like to state that the wheel fist drill I saw, while somewhat similar in general structure, was played a bit differently.

[Akhilleus]

Oso- in my school's handbook, the short staff form has the word "Gan" in the name, I think that refers to the staff, but then they refer to it as a "whip" in english, and the long staff form has the word "gwun" in it, which I believe refers to the long staff...I don't know the chinese characters for each though...

E- how did you see this technique performed? The clip looked a lot like the way I have seen it...

EDIT: checking our curriculum again, maybe we write short staff as "bien gan"

[Pork Chop]

J- the last time i was at diane's place. That new kid was playing it open-palmed instead of close fisted.

Really seemed to emphasize the throws instead of just punching.

The different emphasis really made it seem like something different- eventhough every technique should probably have a kicking, punching, throwing, and joint locking application.

But I qualified myself in the beginning by saying I'm a clueless tool and I am probably wrong. :p :D

Seriously though- the question brought up was the same thing I was talking about with you the day I saw the drill. I'm more than happy to defer my opinion to the mantis and tsp guys discussing this: who actually know this stuff and what's going on.

Ain't seen you guys in a while; we gotta set up something regular outside of Gold's, considering I'm not a member anymore. Hit me up.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Oso
To the best of my knowledge it's Gun (mandarin for staff). The only Shaolin stick form I know is Yin Shou Gun which I picked up in Deng Feng in '98. I don't believe I've ever seen Shi Ba Gun.

[Oso]

Thanks Akhillus and HLL. I'd only heard it said and it sounded like 'gun'...sorta but thought I'd seen it spelled pinyin with the 'i'.

HLL, it's pretty cool but very basic. It's a 'mirror' form as Tainan alludes to: the 2nd road is the ling side of the two person version of it and the first and last moves are really the same move so you can just keep going and going and going....

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Sounds like Wah Lum Stick vs Stick. Basic but can be done back and forth, over and over. Nobody ever practices it as a single though.

I like that format and, although I haven't finalized all the moves, that's how I play my partnered Xiao Tang Lang.

BMore Banga
Funny how a slight change makes you see different apps in moves. The throws are still there with a clenched fist (grabbing) but by opening the hands I guess it forces you to think of non-striking apps.

[Akhilleus]

Really seemed to emphasize the throws instead of just punching.

Sounds right E...the schools I train at definitely emphasize the throwing aspect even though we usually train it with the punches during solo practice...

[FranklinFick]

any chance you could describe the throw that you mentioned when transfering from the ma bu to gung bu stance...

i never learned or thought of that move as a throw before....

getting into mabu i can think of a
defence from a kick and throw,
a type of hip throw,
a block and chopping punch,
a block and arm bar,
etc

but i always thought of the turn to gung bu and back to ma bu as being more to train to release power...


thanks
Franklin

[Akhilleus]

Well let me see...when you step into your ma bu stance and hit down with the lead hand, you could hit the guy with your shoulder right in his gut/chest...then quickly while he is off balance you would shift from ma bu to kung bu by straightening out your back leg and thus throwing him over the knee that is bent (the leg in front)...like I said, I have long since given up on the second part, but the shoulder hit seems to work well it can knock some guys down and even if it doesn't knock them down it can hurt...come to think of it the whole thing is a lot like part wild horses main from tai chi...

[Akhilleus]

defence from a kick and throw,
\

Yeah, i have practiced or at least seen most of the apps. you mentioned, but could you please elaborate on the defense against a kick? I think I might be able to guess what it is...but the details I wouldn't be sure of...

[Pork Chop]

Originally posted by FranklinFick
getting into mabu i can think of a
defence from a kick and throw,
a type of hip throw,
a block and chopping punch,
a block and arm bar,
etc



You forgot the most important application:

"Break the wrist, and walk away....
Break the wrist, and walk away...."

[FranklinFick]

before you step into ma bu :

catch the kick with the front arm... either use the rising of the arm from the form the form (good against a front kick) or twisting of the body to throw...


thanks for the description of the throw...


I don't get this one???
"Break the wrist, and walk away....
Break the wrist, and walk away...."


when i did learn this drill i was told that it was a complete system??? that is the deal with that... does anyone have anymore information about this or the origin of this exercise...

to me it looks very similar to a tan tui road... actually a friend of mine who studied in austrelia learned a 16 or 18 road tan tui and i remember when he demonstrated a bit of it i thought "hey that part looks alot like the wheel fist that i learned"

thanks for the replys
franklin

ps anyone know of any tien shan pai guys out here in los angeles??

[Akhilleus]

Yeah E I didn't get the wrist break either...

Franklin,
wow that isn't what I was thinking of at all but that sounds great...as for it being a complete system I don't know anything about that...I know that at our school it is suppose to be very important but then again they say that about everything...it is found in some of our forms...and when practicing it solo we do straight line up and back and sometimes go off im different directions like you described earlier...

I haven't heard of any TSP out there in LA but maybe there is something...

[FranklinFick]

thanks ..


what were you thinking about for the kick??




i know there is not a school out here in LA but maybe someone who studied before is also living out here??

maybe--- well a long shot


franklin

[Akhilleus]

I saw a move in hung gar once where when the guy kicks they hit down on the guys leg when his kick reaches the zenith like the first part of wheel hand/wheel fist...

also we are suppose to do wheel hand vs. a rear bear hug with your arms trapped but heck if I can make that one work...

[Oso]

also we are suppose to do wheel hand vs. a rear bear hug with your arms trapped but heck if I can make that one work...

well, for one, not much works 'well' once the bear hug is around you.

so, catch it before he's fully locked in and try exploding down into ma bu and pop your arms out to the sides just a bit then flank step to either side in the space you've created and execute the wheel. there won't be much space and it won't be there for long.

[Pork Chop]

"break the wrist" is a napoleon dynamite thing.
I'll show u that movie next time i see yah; i swear you'll totally love it.

As far as how it could be a complete system:
mantis was originally made up of 17 older "styles" plus an 18th that was mantis; each one a cool lil drill/combo.
A long time ago styles weren't big and comprehensive with hundreds of forms. They were typically marked by a particular drill/combo (or small group of drills/combos) each in the same vein as wheel fist, each representing a particular "method" of the system, and each considered the style specialty. A lot of times styles had no forms.
As inferior and limited as this approach seems in comparison to today, I actually think it'd help with a lot of students' confusion these days.

I know the hung technique yer talkin bout J; but I'd say it's more forearm than backfist for striking surface and if you want that kinda bridge for destroying kicks you definitely gotta train it.

Throwing wise, I see the first backfist as kind of an overhook, the second as an offbalancing follow up, and the straight punch as the actual throw. but that's just me...

[Tainan Mantis]

BMore Banga,
Mostly, I agree about your assessment of the 18 styles.
But here is a question for you.
If the 18 styles are really just 18 simple techniques then how do you describe the first one.
It is listed as,

"Taizu's Longfist is the first"

or something like that.
Nowadays longfist is a style, not a technique.
I actually have scant evidence to show that it originally was a technique and not a style, but I need some corroborating evidence.

Do you have any?

Also for the other technique/styles?

[Pork Chop]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
BMore Banga,
Mostly, I agree about your assessment of the 18 styles.
But here is a question for you.
I actually have scant evidence to show that it originally was a technique and not a style, but I need some corroborating evidence.

Do you have any?

Also for the other technique/styles?

Dangit gonna make me do work..... hehe
Gimme some time to get back to you; I will try, eventhough my mantis resources are scant now that I haven't done the style for a long time.

Whatever answer I come up with will probably be from one of the Hong Kong 7 star branches; though I'll try to do better than just quoting Lee kam Wing's book.

Though, just from looking, I have a feeling that Tai Tzu might be the foundation style that the other "specialties" are added to.

[Oso]

just do a search of the mantis forum for '18' and you'll probably get plenty of background.

Tai Tzu is listed first in the poem, then I think Eagle Claw...but I might be wrong on that.

[Pork Chop]

Well I was told once that sup bat sao (shi ba sho) contained all 18 methods- though I forgot who told me; and have a feeling this idea's already been shot down.

Reading:
http://martial.best.vwh.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29280&highlight=18

I see that some of the styles offered faht/fah (methods)- like Tai Tzu which is where the 12 softs apparently comes from; while others like: 16: Choy Kuen of Choy Luen (Hammer Fist) seemed to be more pure technique.

Hsing Yi's a pretty good example of how a method can be expressed by a particular technique, but is really a principle of movement (attack and/or defense). I mean, while I wouldn't say hsing yi's 5 element model is necessarily "simple"; it's definitely not overly convoluted.

I guess it'd be more accurate to say that the 17 styles combined with the 18th that is mantis provide different pieces to the puzzle that makes up a style (methods, fists, powers, sills, etc).

That being said, each puzzle piece was a useable chunk. If you mastered one, even if you were a somewhat limited fighter, you were still probably dangerous. I see that kind of focus in kung fu refreshing.

[FuXnDajenariht]

i always read that kung fu styles had less forms than they do today. i mean waaay less. like maybe 10 at most and alot of chigung and conditioning drills. :confused:

[GM HUANG]

To Whom It May Concern:

I am issuing this e-mail message to you because you were included on an e-mail distribution list produced by Sean Marshall (hereinafter ¡°Mr. Sean Marshall¡± or ¡°Mr. Marshall¡±). I, Grandmaster Huang, Chien-Liang, am responding to the accusations and half-truths forwarded by Mr. Marshall under the guise of ¡°martial unity¡_information, advise [sic], insight, ideas, research and experiences.¡±

Mr. Sean Marshall is the chief instructor at the Annapolis, Maryland ¡°Jing Ying Institute¡± and a senior disciple of Master Anthony Goh. Mr. Marshall wrote a letter to Inside Kung Fu magazine regarding Jonathan Pett Miller¡¯s article on Tien Shan Pai (Inside Kung Fu, May 2004). Mr. Miller prepared and published a response to Mr. Marshall¡¯s inquiries. In turn, Mr. Marshall has issued e-mails to you (and others) and posted some of these messages on Internet chat boards. It is these recent e-mails and Internet postings that I am addressing in this communication.

In Mr. Miller¡¯s reply (Inside Kung Fu, October 2004), he invited Mr. Marshall to visit me at my Owings Mills, Maryland school to speak with me personally about the history and characteristics of Tien Shan Pai. Mr. Marshall did not arrange to speak with me and, in his words, ¡°decline[d]¡± the invitation. Instead, he has disseminated a great deal of misinformation and innuendo in the form of questions, which disparage my own martial arts credentials and integrity. I have called some people he cited ¨C such as Master Dennis Brown and Grandmaster Chan Pui ¨C and they directly disagree with Mr. Marshall¡¯s assertions.

I do not have the time, and you may not have the patience, to address every mistake and misstatement made by Mr. Marshall. In the interest of brevity, I will address only the main portions of Mr. Marshall¡¯s latest comments:

¡ñ To my knowledge, I am Grandmaster Wang, Chueh-Jen¡¯s only formal full disciple. Grandmaster Wang, Chueh-Jen told me that I was his successor.

¡ñ Grandmaster Wang called himself the 63rd generation Tien Shan Pai Grandmaster, and his use of both the title and the generation is documented in various news articles and in papers, calligraphic works and so on prepared by Grandmaster Wang.

¡ñ Tien Shan Pai is its own system within Chinese martial arts. It is not a synthesis or eclectic collection of other styles or forms. It is not derived from the Central Kuoshu Academy.

¡ñ My Shih-fu attended the Central Kuoshu Academy as a member of the first class, the so-called ¡°Professor-Research¡± class. This is a point of honor, as only top martial artists in China were invited to attend. My teacher¡¯s curriculum, as well as my curriculum, includes some forms from the Central Kuoshu Academy and these forms are not Tien Shan Pai. Jonathan Pett Miller¡¯s article in the May 2004 issue of Inside Kung Fu made that point explicitly clear on pages 42 and 43; an excerpt reads: ¡°¡_Huang reserves tien shan pai routines for advanced students¡_much of the beginner- and intermediate-level curriculum consists of non-tien shan pai routines, like chu chi chuan and chung chi chuan (secondary fist), which Wang learned from the Kuoshu Academy.¡±

¡ñ For more than 40 years in Taiwan (1949-1990), no one directly challenged my Shih-fu¡¯s credentials or his status as 63rd generation Tien Shan Pai grandmaster. During this time, any school owner could be challenged to hand-to-hand combat for simply having a school. If the school owner lost, he would be forced to close his school and dismiss his students. No one dared even challenge my Shih-fu, as his reputation, and the reputations of his students, were well known.

¡ñ Master Willy Lin, one of my older classmates, invited me to the United States to teach martial arts at his Washington DC-based school (Lin¡¯s Kung Fu). I have never concealed that fact, as it is well known to my students and has been discussed in print (articles and a book).

¡ñ I did not learn any martial arts from Master Dennis Brown. He may have instructed me in the procedures of operating the martial arts school (Lin¡¯s Kung Fu), such as how to conduct an American-style introductory lesson, which were different than those procedures of my Shih-fu¡¯s traditional, Taiwan-based school. Both Master Brown and I agree on this point.

¡ñ Similarly, I have spoken with Grandmaster Chan Pui, who does not know about Mr. Marshall¡¯s reference to Grandmaster Pui¡¯s alleged remarks at the 2004 U.S. International Kuoshu Championship Tournament. Grandmaster Pui denies making such a statement and further disagrees with the assertion that Master Brown taught me martial arts.

¡ñ I had been studying from my Shih-fu for five years (1967-1973) prior to arriving in the United States and was well versed in a variety of martial arts styles. I subsequently studied with my Shih-fu during visits to Taiwan from 1973 until 1986. I hosted and sponsored my teacher¡¯s visit to the United States in 1981; I trained with him and participated in demonstrations with him around 1982 or 1983; and in 1986, I hosted him for another U.S. visit. During his 1981 and 1986 trips to the U.S., I spent several months privately speaking and studying with my Shih-fu.

¡ñ Master Willy Lin brought several people over from Taiwan to teach at his school: first, his brother, Toni; then me; then others including Master C.C. Liu. C.C. Liu arrived around 1978 or 1979 ¨C five years after I had been in the U.S. Contrary to Mr. Marshall¡¯s comments, I did not perform nunchuck or sai. Apparently, Mr. Marshall has confused me with one of these other people brought over to teach at Lin¡¯s Kung Fu, the son of a southern style Master Lee who practiced sai.

¡ñ I have not claimed to be Master Anthony Goh¡¯s teacher. I am, however, his martial arts uncle ¨C if Mr. Marshall accepts that Goh was C.C. Liu¡¯s student and Master Liu was my classmate. About twenty years ago, Master Goh and I agreed that we would speak to each other directly, by phone, to clear up any rumors about each other. At the time, we were concerned that others may spread rumors in our name. For example, if Master Goh heard a rumor that I had said something about him, I encouraged him to call me directly to clarify; likewise, I could call him if I heard rumors about me supposedly attributed to Master Goh. Since the time of that agreement, I have not received any calls from Master Goh.

¡ñ My Shih-fu had thousands of students in Taiwan. Some of these students have gone on to teach martial arts themselves. Contrary to Mr. Marshall¡¯s comments, I am known to many of my Shih-fu¡¯s students, both younger and older. I continue to stay in communication with them. I have invited both older and younger classmates to attend my tournaments in the U.S. I have visited Taiwan often during the past 20 years, have published articles using the title 64th generation Grandmaster, have attended tournaments in Taiwan and at no time have I received any complaints or questions about my position from my classmates. Similarly, I have been visiting China since 1989, when I saw the Beijing Wushu team training. I have demonstrated in China, brought students to compete in China and again, have never had anyone question my position or title.

¡ñ While I have never been a tournament champion, my students have won championship standings for more than 25 years at national, international and world level events in full-contact fighting, weapon and empty hand forms, two-person sets, Tai Chi Chuan, pushing hands and so on. I have also helped the students of other Masters prepare for competitions ¨C students that subsequently won in their categories at international and world level events.

After my Shih-fu¡¯s death in 1990, my Shih-fu¡¯s senior and junior Tien Shan Pai students held a formal meeting in Taiwan, which I attended. I also visited with some of my classmates ¨C both younger and older ¨C as well as my Shih-fu¡¯s daughter. I compared my knowledge with theirs and inquired about certain papers and techniques that my Shih-fu provided to me. Few were at my level of Tien Shan Pai knowledge and none had some important Tien Shan Pai training documents, which my Shih-fu provided to me.

They were surprised, amazed even, to discover what I had learned. I subsequently shared some of this instruction with them. During my travels across the world, I have not found anyone who has more Tien Shan Pai knowledge than I do. If anyone else in the world can prove that he or she learned more Tien Shan Pai from Grandmaster Wang than me, I will bow down to that person as teacher.

I have worked hard for more than 30 years to promote martial arts, ethics and unity. Even though I am known to many Masters, I have remained relatively low-key. My refusal to engage in public attacks on other martial artists is consistent with martial ethics. I have sponsored martial arts demonstrations which raised thousands of dollars for charities such as the 9/11 Victim¡¯s Fund, the MS Society, The Johns Hopkins Children¡¯s Center, and so on. I have frequently spent my own money to travel in support of tournaments and to visit Masters all over the world.

[GM HUANG]

(cont')


I am impressed that Mr. Marshall speaks of the same ideas (“martial unity”) but his writings are an affront rather than a contribution. I do not recall ever meeting Mr. Marshall. Nevertheless, for someone who has never met me, he has made many unsupported accusations and distortions. While I remain open to discussing his allegations, I find that his approach of disseminating these misstatements is divisive and cannot be ignored. Mr. Marshall seeks to undermine my reputation. He has written that I am aspiring to “create some kind of cult,” calls my students “brainwashed,” talks of my “ridiculous claims,” “blatant lies,” “egotism,” and “fairy tales.” I ask you: is this language appropriate for someone who, never having met me, aspires to “martial unity?”

If Mr. Marshall continues to send these unsupported e-mails, or make other allegations in print and/or on the Internet, I will consider such remarks a personal attack. I do not know Mr. Marshall and I do not know why he would aspire to discredit me, my students, my classmates and my Shih-fu – particularly given his reckless treatment of the facts. He may have his own opinion about my martial arts abilities, but I will not permit him to insult my Shih-fu or my integrity. I remain available to anyone who would like to meet and learn the truth behind my response to Mr. Sean Marshall.

Sincerely,




Grandmaster Huang, Chien-Liang
64th generation Tien Shan Pai

[Pork Chop]

Welcome to the forum. :)

GM Wang, Chueh-Jen had awesome skill and your organization's producing students with some awesome skill- so "the goods" are definitely there.

Hope the banquet goes well this weekend. :cool:

[smarshall]

Wow – What happened to Jon Miller? Where did he go? I can’t believe that the “GM” himself responded to the little nephew! I knew that Mr. Miller was nothing more than a mouthpiece for Huang, but now I wonder if he exists at all!

I am preparing a formal response to the “GM” but I thought I would post a few of my observations for the readers here. First this discussion began as a simple and obvious question: Who are the sixty some “missing” generations? How can Huang sport the title “64th Generation Grandmaster” when he cannot even name the ancestors he professes to carry the lineage of? He says, “I will address the main portions of Mr. Marshall’s latest comments”. Yet he never even touches the subject. At this point I would be happy if he could just tell us who is grandmaster number sixty.


Huang says that I have used the, “…form of questions, which disparage my own martial arts credentials and integrity.” My friends, what kind of credentials or integrity are disparaged by simple and obvious questions? Here he seems to have taken a cue from Condaleeza Rice. Mr. Huang is clearly very testy and defensive about questions regarding his fantastical title.

He says, “I have called some people he cited – such as Master Dennis Brown and Grandmaster Chan Pui – and they directly disagree with Mr. Marshall’s assertions.”
What Huang does not realize is that I have spent hours on the phone and Internet interviewing the witnesses I sited. Most of the information I received was from Master Brown. I did not make any of this public until he had reviewed my original draft (which he helped me tweak). Master Willy Lin called both Chan Pui and Master Wang’s daughter in order to confirm what we already knew. This he did only a few short weeks ago. So again, Huang has some explaining to do here.

Huang said, “To my knowledge, I am Grandmaster Wang, Chueh-Jen’s only formal full disciple. Grandmaster Wang, Chueh-Jen told me that I was his successor.”

Guess what, I am Bruce Lee’s only formal student. He whispered this to me before he died.

Huang says, “Grandmaster Wang called himself the 63rd generation Tien Shan Pai Grandmaster, and his use of both the title and the generation is documented in various news articles and in papers, calligraphic works and so on prepared by Grandmaster Wang.”

Firstly, I don’t believe Huang. But I will pay him $1 for each document he can post on his website proving his claim. That should cover the cost of the scan.
Secondly, even if there were “news articles and papers” with Master Wang using the title, that does not prove that they are true. Also it does not show who these sixty or more ancestors were. I would like to personally welcome Huang to the state of reality and the age of information. Just because someone says something does not make it true.

Huang says, “My teacher’s curriculum, as well as my curriculum, includes some forms from the Central Kuoshu Academy and these forms are not Tien Shan Pai. Jonathan Pett Miller’s article in the May 2004 issue of Inside Kung Fu made that point explicitly clear on pages 42 and 43; an excerpt reads: “…Huang reserves tien shan pai routines for advanced students…much of the beginner- and intermediate-level curriculum consists of non-tien shan pai routines, like chu chi chuan and chung chi chuan (secondary fist), which Wang learned from the Kuoshu Academy.”
This is one of Huang’s biggest contradictions. On page 68 of May 2004 Inside Kung Fu Jon Miller’s (AKA Huang) says Tien Shan Pai is a, comprehensive style”. Then why the need to import Guoshu forms for beginner and intermediate levels?
Furthermore in Jon Miller’s (AKA Huang) response to my inquiries he say’s, “Based on my reading of your school program, several of the forms that you teach were forms from Late Supreme Master Wang¡¦s curriculum. Perhaps you recognized them from my article. What I call Chu Chi Chuan, you call "Chu Ji Quan." What I call Chung Chi Chuan, you call "Zhong Ji Quan" I mentioned in the article that these two forms came from the Central Kuoshu Academy. I wonder, what other forms do we share in common? Are you interested in getting to the source of your lineage?”
Here you can see they are trying to actually hijack the legacy of The Nanjing Central Guoshu Academy. These two well-documented Guoshu forms are the same ones he chose as examples to exalt himself as my “Uncle”. I suppose, using the same logic, he must consider Master Yang JwingMing his nephew since he also teaches GuoShu forms.

Huang says, “For more than 40 years in Taiwan (1949-1990), no one directly challenged my Shih-fu’s credentials or his status as 63rd generation Tien Shan Pai grandmaster. During this time, any school owner could be challenged to hand-to-hand combat for simply having a school. If the school owner lost, he would be forced to close his school and dismiss his students. No one dared even challenge my Shih-fu, as his reputation, and the reputations of his students, were well known.”
Here Huang is projecting. No one is challenging the reputation of Master Wang. In fact we are trying to honor it by not allowing his junior student to hijack the great legacy of his accomplishments and skill. He put together a great curriculum. Let us honor that and not this 64-generation fairy tale.

Huang says, “Master Willy Lin, one of my older classmates, invited me to the United States to teach martial arts at his Washington DC-based school (Lin’s Kung Fu). I have never concealed that fact, as it is well known to my students and has been discussed in print (articles and a book).”
Master Lin has been an incredible help to my efforts. He is retired from teaching professionally so he has nothing to gain from this. Myself, Master Brown, Master Gause, or anyone else have nothing to gain from this except the truth. Huang has everything to lose. He has draped himself with this “GM’ title for so long he would feel naked without it.

Huang says, “I did not learn any martial arts from Master Dennis Brown. He may have instructed me in the procedures of operating the martial arts school (Lin’s Kung Fu), such as how to conduct an American-style introductory lesson, which were different than those procedures of my Shih-fu’s traditional, Taiwan-based school. Both Master Brown and I agree on this point.”
All of the information I shared on this subject I received from Masters Brown, Norman Smith, Clarence Burris, Willy Lin, Gene Gause, Chuck Jeffries etc. I am still in the process of conducting interviews.

Huang says, ”Similarly, I have spoken with Grandmaster Chan Pui, who does not know about Mr. Marshall’s reference to Grandmaster Pui’s alleged remarks at the 2004 U.S. International Kuoshu Championship Tournament. Grandmaster Pui denies making such a statement and further disagrees with the assertion that Master Brown taught me martial arts.”
Unfortunately Huang does not know that Master Lin called Master Chan Pui for me and he confirmed everything. Also this incident was told to me by three people who were standing right next to Master Chan Pui. One of which was Master Brown himself.

Huang says, “I had been studying from my Shih-fu for five years (1967-1973) prior to arriving in the United States and was well versed in a variety of martial arts styles.”
Wow! Only five years and Master Wang decided to choose him as successor over his many other students who had been with him two or three times that long. This he did in secret with no documentation and without his own daughter’s knowledge. That’s hard to believe!

Huang says, “Master Willy Lin brought several people over from Taiwan to teach at his school: first, his brother, Toni; then me; then others including Master C.C. Liu. C.C. Liu arrived around 1978 or 1979 – five years after I had been in the U.S. Contrary to Mr. Marshall’s comments, I did not perform nunchuck or sai. Apparently, Mr. Marshall has confused me with one of these other people brought over to teach at Lin’s Kung Fu, the son of a southern style Master Lee who practiced sai.”
I was just beginning my martial arts studies at this time at the age of ten so I wasn’t there. The observations I reported were from the folks who were teaching at Lin’s Kung Fu at the time.

cont....

[smarshall]

Huang says, “I have not claimed to be Master Anthony Goh’s teacher. I am, however, his martial arts uncle – if Mr. Marshall accepts that Goh was C.C. Liu’s student and Master Liu was my classmate. About twenty years ago, Master Goh and I agreed that we would speak to each other directly, by phone, to clear up any rumors about each other. At the time, we were concerned that others may spread rumors in our name. For example, if Master Goh heard a rumor that I had said something about him, I encouraged him to call me directly to clarify; likewise, I could call him if I heard rumors about me supposedly attributed to Master Goh. Since the time of that agreement, I have not received any calls from Master Goh.”
This is the most insulting of Huang’s fantasies. Huang has been living off of the reputations of others for too long. This statement is not only wrong and arrogant but demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of martial arts geneology. Bruce Lee had many teachers but only one Master: Yip Man. Master Brown has many coaches but only one Shifu: Willy Lin. I have many coaches but only one Sifu: Anthony Goh. Master Goh has had many teachers but only one Sifu: Fu LinBao. So Huang is trying to take credit for Master Fu’s teaching by calling himself Master Goh’s “uncle”.
Furthermore Master Goh has read Huang’s ridiculous statements and told me that this alleged conversation never took place. This is painfully obvious since Master Goh has never been known to spread rumors and does not need to drape himself in fantastical titles. I was sitting right next to Masters Goh, Tai Yim, Ken Fish and many others when Huang performed the broadsword in Baltimore. To use their words, they were “shocked” at how poor his performance was. He had to pause halfway through the form in order to untangle his wrist from the tassel. This had to be one of the most embarrassing moments I have ever witnessed in over 25 years of my career. What made it even worse was Huang’s grand and fawning introduction by his students, and the snickers from the VIP seats when he got stuck.

Huang says, “I have visited Taiwan often during the past 20 years, have published articles using the title 64th generation Grandmaster, have attended tournaments in Taiwan
and at no time have I received any complaints or questions about my position from my classmates.”
They probably thought he was just making a reference to BaGua.

Huang’s motto includes the character for humility. Here are some quotes from Huang, tell me does this sound humble, “Few were at my level of Tien Shan Pai knowledge”, “They were surprised, amazed even, to discover what I had learned”, “I have not found anyone who has more Tien Shan Pai knowledge than I do”. Also Huang says, “I have remained relatively low-key.” Yet he never misses the opportunity to attire himself with the grand title “64th Generation Grand Master”. That is how he signed his response. He even used the name GM Huang as his screen name (I assume GM stands for Grandmaster). He has even incorporated the number 64 into his logo and I see his students have done the same (I think they are up to 69?). I ask you, Does that sound “low key”?

Huang said, “I am impressed that Mr. Marshall speaks of the same ideas (“martial unity”)”. But what he doesn’t understand is that my call for martial unity is a call for the industry to stand up against the use of unsupported, historically inaccurate, and insulting titles for self promotion. Also if it is true that he teaches the apocryphal “Red Cloud” story to children as fact (used to justify his title), then we should all reject it for the common good. Martial mythology is very rewarding. But have you ever heard anyone claiming to be direct descendant of Sun WuKong (The Monkey King)?

Thank you for your attention and I want to wish everyone a Happy Honorable Robert Nesta Marley OM 60th Birthday!

In martial arts,

-Sean Marshall


Why boasteth thyself, oh evil men,
Playing smart and not being clever?
I say you're working iniquity to achieve vanity, yeah,
But the goodness of JAH JAH endureth forever.

If you are the big tree,
We are the small axe.
Sharpened to cut you down,
Ready to cut you down.

These are the words of my master.
Keep on telling me
No weak heart shall prosper,
Oh, no they can't.

And whosoever diggeth a pit, Lord,
Shall fall in it, shall fall in it.
Whosoever diggeth a pit shall bury in it,
Shall bury in it.

If you are the big tree,
We are the small axe
Sharpened to cut you down,
Ready to cut you down.

And whosoever diggeth a pit shall fall in it, fall in it.
Whosoever diggeth a pit shall bury in it, shall bury in it.

If you have a big tree,
We have a small axe
Ready to cut you down,
Sharpened to cut you down.

-Bob Marley

[Tainan Mantis]

smarshall,
GM Huang is higher than you.
It is incorrect to disrespect him.

He is telling the truth.

But what if he isn't?
Even if he is out right bold faced lying all you can do is keep your mouth shut.

Or you can disinherit yourself from the system.

[Brad]

smarshall,
GM Huang is higher than you.
It is incorrect to disrespect him.

He is telling the truth.

But what if he isn't?
Even if he is out right bold faced lying all you can do is keep your mouth shut.

Or you can disinherit yourself from the system.
One person is lying and one is telling the truth. I'm inclined to believe GM Huang(from reading Sean's posts on other issues before, and being the subject of some rumor spreading by him and his students before). And GM Huang wouldn't be the first kungfu master with an improbable(maybe impossible) lineage/origin story made up by his kungfu ancestors. Right now it's all so and so said this, so and so said that, with no hard evidence being presented(no writtin letters from these people or recorded interviews). Everything would be solved pretty easilly if there would be a couple mostly unbiased third parties who could make the phone calls to confirm Sean or GM Huang's conversations with the teachers supposedly talked to(Dennis Brown, Chan Pui, etc.), or if Sean could convince them to put something in writting.

But, I'm going to say that I disagree with Tainan. If GM Huang is bold faced lying, then Sean (or anyone else if they knew he was lying) would have every right to call him out, and GM Huang wouldn't be the inheritor of Sean's system(if I'm reading things correctly- so Sean wouldn't have to disinherit himself from anything). What he needs though is hard evidence that he can show people. Otherwise, it's just his world against a "grand master's" and no one will believe him except his own students and personal friends.

[lkfmdc]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
smarshall,
GM Huang is higher than you.
It is incorrect to disrespect him.



This is the sort of..... let's call it "puff"... that has led to the downfall of TCMA... the idea that any "master" can tell the most outlandish tale and never have to back it up just because he's a "famous master"

sorry, aint no masters, cause they aint no slaves here!!! I'm a SO TIRED of the "I'm Chinese and older than you, you have no right to question me" crap....

By the way, pure chronological age is not the final say in true Confucian lineages. For example, since Chan Tai San was already in his late 50's/early 60's when he accepted me, I am actually a lineage earlier than most would imagine...

For example, Chan Tai San and Tai Yim's Sifu both studied with White Haired Devil, thus Tai Yim isn't my "uncle", he's my older brother... Most would not realize that.... I've had "masters" talk crap to me only to be reminded I am a generation OLDER than they are!!!!

But it's all BS.... enough already....

[Akhilleus]

Sean,
After I got on here and saw that my Shi-fu, Grandmaster Huang, had posted on this thread, I decided to tackle the monumental task of trying to read your mammoth posts…here are some of the things I didn’t understand…

In your first letter to Jonathan Miller, you wrote:


…I have utmost respect for the skills of your Shifu, Master Huang

Your last post stated:


I was sitting right next to…many others when Huang performed the broadsword…This had to be one of the most embarrassing moments…

So which is it?:o


You may want to know that I have never lost to any of Huang¡¯s students in forms, weapons, or sparring divisions ever. If you ever venture out of the KuoShu tournament you may confirm this fact yourself.

Actually, a bunch of us were at the Ying Yang tournament when you did a Drunken Style form in the opening ceremonies…nice form, nice pajamas :cool:

Yeah one time I lost in forms to one of your guys and you were banging a drum while he did his form…LOL…It’s like, I thought I signed up for a “beginner form division,” not a “Sean bangs the drum loudly while his student does a sloppy form then gets a ridiculously high score b/c he has dreadlocks” division…(I think that was you…if I have mistaken you for someone else, if there is some other guy running around with dreadlocks and white pj’s, I am sorry)…

But Sean, as reassuring as your pajamas were, they alone haven’t convinced me that you are right in this case, because as you said:


The observations I reported were from the folks who were teaching at Lin’s Kung Fu at the time.

And


Just because someone says something does not make it true.


I wonder if he [Mr. Miller] exists at all!

He does exist...still, that was pretty funny :D


Unfortunately Huang does not know that Master Lin called Master Chan Pui for me and he confirmed everything.

Oh so you talked to someone who talked to someone who was there…I’m sorry for ever having doubted you…


But have you ever heard anyone claiming to be direct descendant of Sun WuKong (The Monkey King)?

No.

J/K about your dreads/ kung fu uniform BTW...they're cool

[Akhilleus]

"I'm Chinese and older than you, you have no right to question me" crap....

Just wanted to point out, at no point did the person in question (in this thread) say anything like this. Although if you change the words "I'm Chinese and older than you" to "I myself can't fight but have trained guys that can" then suddenly the phrase sounds very familiar...hmm...

[lkfmdc]

I was never a "Kuoshu champion" but then again, Kuoshu never let us compete against them, even when we drove all the way down there and tried to register. But if you think I can't fight, it isn't all that far to come up to NYC and get some rounds in. I'll even put on MMA gloves and go with you at YOUR rules...

Reading your other response, seems this topic hits you too close to home, ie it is YOUR sifu being attacked, so I guess you have to respond like you're on the rag....

S Marshal does make a few good points, one obvious one being, if he's 64th generation, why can't he just name a few of the previous generations?

Why is that so out of the question?

If he's an adopted disciple, who was his witness? Is his witness still alive? Was the traditional public announcement made? WHERE was it made? Where is his "book"?

Is he so high and mighty that he can't answer these questions?

[Akhilleus]

lkmfdc...I never said I was referring to you...but if my statements have awoken some skeletons in the closet, I apologize and sympathize with your insecurity...and since you are the one that needs to settle some issues with me, and I don't know what you look like, why don't you be the one that drives 5 hours to settle them? I'll PM or email you the when and where so you can come and show me how well you can fight then...MMA sounds good...

OK so if we forget about the empty internet challenge for a minute I am sorry if you guys came all the way down here to compete and were turned away...but hey the rules are rules...

As for the questions about my Shi-fu...go ahead this whole thing is one big joke to me...I've trained with him and felt him do techniques and no further proof was needed for me...

[lkfmdc]

Your grandmaster's funny habit of never mailing registration forms and not allowing outsiders to compete in the Lei Tai is WELL KNOWN. Cung Le even FLEW IN FROM CA and was turned away... The SECOND TIME we showed up, after being told THREE TIMES they'd send us the registration forms and seemed to "forget", Wai Lun Choi even berated your master for not letting us compete....

But that aside, I was wondering why you can't seem to respond to any of the very legit questions I just asked about your "grandmaster" and some of his claims?

If he's 64th generation, why can't he just name a few of the previous generations?

Why is that so out of the question?

If he's an adopted disciple, who was his witness? Is his witness still alive? Was the traditional public announcement made? WHERE was it made? Where is his "book"?

Is he so high and mighty that he can't answer these questions?

Don't know what I look like? Dude, there are pics of me on this forum, on my web site and on several other web sites... plus, if you just walked into my school, trust me, you'd know immediately who I am.... so if you do ever find your way to NYC and want to get some rounds in, I'll be there :D

[lkfmdc]

By the way, for your own edification, offering a few rounds of sparring isn't an "internet challenge"... it's just an offer to go a few rounds. You do spar in your school, don't you?

[Akhilleus]

I edited my last post to respond to the questions regarding my Shi-fu...

I will come and do said rounds with you and anyone else if the objective is to help eachother improve and we can have a drink afterwards...as I said before if the objective is to hurt eachother than you will have to come here...

[lkfmdc]

Originally posted by Akhilleus

As for the questions about my Shi-fu...go ahead this whole thing is one big joke to me...I've trained with him and felt him do techniques and no further proof was needed for me...

Ah, but see, this is my whole point, that TCMA is so mis-guided in its values. Why come up with all this BS lineage and myth and false history and claims of being a disciple?? Is it to HIDE something?

If we are talking about TRUE martial art, well then, the technique is the thing. Either it works or it doesn't. that's why I hate forms, and forms competitions, it's meaningless. I've seen a lot of "forms champions" try and fight and get mopped up, so then what does their pretty form mean?

Willy Lin, I remember he had great Chin Na. CC Liu, I remember his kicks being hard. Anthony Goh I know was a bad azz who fought Thai boxers on concrete back home.

I don't care if they aren't "lineage holders" or if some guy is their "senior".... if your grandmaster has skill, he should rest on that, not the other BS....

pretty simple huh?

[SiuHung]

What an interesting thread.

I fully support anyone who calls upon a current master, or grandmaster as the case may be, to come clean on their record. Coach Ross alluded to the problem here: the "I'm this level and generation" snobbery that people get waaaaay too hung up on in CMA. It's madness and flase pride in most cases.

Let's face it, until some of the current "masters" are willing and able to back up thier titles with their hands and factual records of thier careers in MA, they amount to little more than self-praising paper tigers.

[Akhilleus]

Dude, there are pics of me on this forum, on my web site and on several other web sites

tell me more about these websites...;)


I don't care if they aren't "lineage holders" or if some guy is their "senior".... if your grandmaster has skill, he should rest on that, not the other BS....

Dude nobody's resting on any BS...he was training forms competitors AND fighters and these attacks came out of the blue...if the attacks had been that he had never trained any fighters we could have addressed that...and it's not BS he has things at the school that were given to him by his teacher to recognize his status...

[lkfmdc]

****, you are lazy

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?postid=580165

you didn't even need to leave this site to see a pic of me :rolleyes:

[Akhilleus]

Actually it was a joke..like I was hoping they were paysites...get it...ha ha...guess not...

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I believe the tradition of showing respect to masters came from the days when they would beat your azz if you didn't. It became ingrained in the MA culture and as with anything handed down over time the original reason has been lost. Now it's just tradition.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for respecting MA masters and even just elders (something that's missing these days). But when titles are so easily gained (made up some times) I think there needs to be some caution.

Now back to Tien Shan Pai. I was looking through some old magazines recently (great fun if you have any really old ones) and found this article.

Inside Kung Fu - May 1983 (http://www.geocities.com/hualinmantis/video/IKF-May1983.jpg)

[smarshall]

Ikfmdc,

I have some pictures of myself with Master Chan Tai Sun which I would like to share. Hope these bring back fond memories.
Sean

[smarshall]

part 2

[smarshall]

part 3

[smarshall]

part 4

[smarshall]

part 5

[smarshall]

Tianan M.,
Thank you for responding.

Just to clarify

"Or you can disinherit yourself from the system."

I have no inheritance in the system. My only goal is to be some semblance of my Sifu. He is not part of the Tien Shan Pai system or "inheritance". So you can take it, I don't want it. I think they call me 66 gen? Maybe 72, I've lost track...

There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest there exists 60-something generations and there is not one shred of evidence in the existance of a Tien Shan martial temple as related by Huang's "Red Cloud" story so what am I really missing out on exept a fake title?
truly,
-Sean

[smarshall]

Akhilleus,

Thank you for taking time out to read my lengthy discussions.

I would be happy to answer some of your questions at another time. But the purpose of this discussion is very simple. So please stick to the subject:

Who are the 60- something Tien Shan Pai ancestors, which Huang uses to justify his title 64 Generation grandmaster of Tien Shan Pai?

And

Where is there any evidence that there existed a martial temple on Mount Tien, which is the bedrock for Huang’s claims?

Everything else is window dressing. If you can find ONE of Huang’s classmates who actually recognizes Huang as 64-generation grandmaster PLEASE put me in touch with him/her. I cannot find one. Please just tell me who is Tien Shan Pai grandmaster number 60?

As for my martial art skills you are mostly right. I am a nobody. I’m not a master or grandmaster or even supreme grandmaster. I am just a lowly kung fu student with simple questions (see above).
Take care,
-Sean

[smarshall]

Dear Brad,

Thank you for replying to my post. I’m sorry that you don’t believe me but like you said, “Everything would be solved pretty easilly if there would be a couple mostly unbiased third parties who could make the phone calls to confirm Sean or GM Huang's conversations with the teachers supposedly talked to…”. What I’m telling you can be “...solved pretty easily….”.

Let’s keep it straight, I’m not the one making any claims; it’s Huang who has been wearing the title for so long with no verifiable authenticity. HE carries the burden of proof; not me. The results of my investigations can be easily verified. Huang on the other hand has failed to even display ONE document to back up HIS claims.

Brad you said, “And GM Huang wouldn't be the first kungfu master with an improbable(maybe impossible) lineage/origin story made up by his kungfu ancestors.”

Brad I’ve known a few real grandmasters over the years and they can all prove their title. In fact the ones I know are only too glad to do so. If you know someone like you describe then tell us who they are. I’ll be glad to call them out as well. I doubt you will find anyone with a claim as wild as 64 generations! I know this used to go on 500 years ago but we live in the information age now so it just can’t fly. The state of martial arts can only improve if we reject these kinds of fake titles and egotism.

Unless Huang can prove 1) there exists 64 generations and 2) there exists a tian shan martial temple as he claims; then he must abandon his silly title or run risk of being a laughing stock in martial arts.

I, on the other hand, have nothing to gain from this except the truth.
Peace,
-Sean

[morbicid]

i have read so much of this thread and, for the life of me, I simply cannot bring myself to care about this topic... at all.

For every fraud martial arts school you identify, I assure you that there are another 10 springing up somewhere. With the amount of crappy MA schools I've seen, this individual system is in no danger of becoming a "laughing stock". In fact, I would give him an "A" for effort simply for making an attempt at explaining some kind of lineage. It sure beats certain large MA chains that have spread throughout the country with their own set of made-up techniques and camouflage belt colors. I would prefer being lied to with some degree of creativity, rather than have my intelligence insulted. Let it rest.

There will always be story tellers, as long as someone is willing to listen. Especially if people are willing to pay money to learn an ancient tradition. It is what it is.

No offense.

[Akhilleus]

As for my martial art skills you are mostly right. I am a nobody. I’m not a master or grandmaster or even supreme grandmaster. I am just a lowly kung fu student with simple questions (see above).

Sean, I never said you were a nobody...I've seen you perform and know what you are capable of...if I gave you the impression that I don't respect your skills (whatever else I may think of you) I was kidding...your forms are awesome...but as I mentioned it seemed like your student got a much higher score than he deserved one year at ying yang...but hey that's just my opinion and that happens all the time (at the kuoshu tourney as well)...

Any jokes about you started as my trying to figure out if I was thinking of the right person and I kind of teased you about it just like I would tease a friend...

I'm not trying to argue who is right and wrong or who is better...like you, I am interested in the truth...


Who are the 60- something Tien Shan Pai ancestors, which Huang uses to justify his title 64 Generation grandmaster of Tien Shan Pai?

I cannot answer this question...I don't know if anyone can...but even if they couldn't name them it doesn't prove that Master Huang is NOT the Grandmaster...in this country you are innocent until proven guilty, my friend...


Where is there any evidence that there existed a martial temple on Mount Tien, which is the bedrock for Huang’s claims?

Hmmm...I thought that it was claimed that the temple existed in a certain mountain range, and a particular mountain was not specified...and I don't think that story was meant to be accepted as fact...I have been to several of the schools listed on TienShanPai.org and have never heard of any of them asking people to "write reports" on this fable...


If you can find ONE of Huang’s classmates who actually recognizes Huang as 64-generation grandmaster PLEASE put me in touch with him/her.

I might actually be able to help you there...I don't know if I have any contact information but I should be able to list at least one of them...I will talk to some people about it tomorrow night...


Unless Huang can prove 1) there exists 64 generations and 2) there exists a tian shan martial temple as he claims; then he must abandon his silly title or run risk of being a laughing stock in martial arts.

Can you prove that there are not 64 generations and that there was not a temple? Innocent until proven guilty...

[Akhilleus]

And Sean, what about that IKF article that was writting when Grandmaster Wang was still around that describes (now Grandmaster) Huang as "his disciple" and does make reference to the 64 generations...

I'm sorry man, but it's hard not to question your motivations. Your sifu used to run THE tournament in the Baltimore area. GM Huang's tournament is quickly rising to the scale of the old USWKF tournies hosted by Goh. What better way to ensure the old legacy than to tear down the guy looking to build his own?
You admit that you really have no personal stake in this argument outside of the fact that you don't like the guy's advertizing.

Excuse me, but with your 'holistic' approach and your one love mentality, it's hard to see you getting so upset over advertizing.

But I trained under one of Master Goh's students, so you can call me nephew if you wish...

your kung fu nephew,
Akhilleus

[Akhilleus]

You do spar in your school, don't you?

I am not a great fighter, but I am proud of our school...in short yes, we do spar...but I will tell you more about our school b.c I am proud and I think you will be surprised...

we have a kids program and regular kung fu classes (no surprise there)...but we also have classes for people interested in competing...Sun Tzu and I lead the class...we've got another instructor with collegiate wrestling experience...we do Thai Pads, heavy bags, partner drills, sparring...at the end we usually roll a little bit since I used to train in submission wrestling...we've got a bodybuilder in that class too and he's strong as all heck...we've had guys compete in: san shou, Muay Thai (King of the Ring, Virginia Beach), San Da (New York Showdown, November 2004), and MMA (King of the Ring, Virgina Beach), and continuous contact and American Kickboxing...and that's only counting the people that train there REGULARLY...

I'm sorry if I am bragging but I didn't want you to think we were a forms only school or we would post a 2man set online and call it sparring...

[smarshall]

Dear Akhilleus,

Thank you for your completely undeserved compliment. But I beg to differ. My skills are meager at best and only God is awesome. I’m sorry if you feel you were robbed at some tournament but it won’t be the last time that happens. It’s the nature of the beast.

As for your other point, this issue has nothing to do with guilt or innocence. It is strictly about making claims and backing it up. It’s that simple. If Huang really were the GM it would be SO easy for him to prove it. You say that he has proof. Loan him a digital camera so that he may display the documentation and lay the issue to rest. The fact that he has not done it, when it would be so simple, just further demonstrates his lack of legitimacy. As for calling himself Master Goh’s “uncle”, this is a disgusting, self-promoting, and factually incorrect mistake, which Huang is certainly guilty of.


You cite IKF as some bastion of truth. Sorry my friend you need more than a self-promoting article in a trade magazine. Anyway you say the article cites Huang as a disciple of Master Wang. Don’t you realize that Master Wang had dozens, maybe hundreds of disciples? Many of which had been studying with him before and after Huang. Why do his classmates not recognize him as GM? If some do, then HE needs to produce them. Or you can do it for him if you really want to find the truth.

The temple, which Huang cites as the founding of Tien Shan Pai and which the fictitional “Red Cloud” character comes from, is cited by Huang as the origin of generation 1 out of 64. So you see his entire story is based on a fictitious legend created only about 40 years ago. Therefore his title “64 generation grandmaster of tien shan pai” is a complete farce. Again He makes the claim, HE sports the title; therefore HE bears the responsibility of proving it. I don’t bear any responsibility to disprove it (but I have anyway).

As for your comments about the history of tournament promotion in Baltimore I can only assume it is another joke because the naiveté is so humorous. If you are joking there is no need to explain the obvious. That is to say that the USAWKF is the national governing body for Chinese martial arts that is why it has outgrown Baltimore City and takes place on both coasts. Also Master Goh is the VP of the IWUF, which is under the IOC (International Olympic Committee). You may be too young to remember that Master Goh was the first one to host Kung Fu tournaments at both Essex Comm. College and Hunt Valley. Thanks to his trailblazing your Sifu can follow in his footsteps. This he did without using petty boycotts or made up titles like Huang has indulged in.

In closing there is no need to call yourself “nephew” as we are all brothers in martial arts.
Yours truly,
-Sean

[Brad]

I think there's a few seperate issues that aren't particularly clear...

1.Do you think that GM Huang came up with the 64 generation story or was it his teacher(or teacher's teacher?)
2.What specifically do GM Huang's former classmates say about the story?
3.Which specific classmates of GM Huang object to his grandmaster title?

[SelkieDoula]

Originally posted by GM HUANG
To Whom It May Concern:


¡ñ Grandmaster Wang called himself the 63rd generation Tien Shan Pai Grandmaster, and his use of both the title and the generation is documented in various news articles and in papers, calligraphic works and so on prepared by Grandmaster Wang.




So, do you have any answer as to why there are no news articles, papers, calligraphic works and so on prepared by generations 1 thru 62? Did you somehow miss the point of Shih-fu Marshall's question?

Respectfully,
a MA mom

[SelkieDoula]

Originally posted by morbicid
i have read so much of this thread and, for the life of me, I simply cannot bring myself to care about this topic... at all.

For every fraud martial arts school you identify, I assure you that there are another 10 springing up somewhere.

There will always be story tellers, as long as someone is willing to listen. Especially if people are willing to pay money to learn an ancient tradition. It is what it is.

No offense.

You wouldn't happen to have a Sh*t Happens bumper sticker on your car, would you? ;)

Seriously though, as a consumer, I say it does matter. I spent a considerable time looking into Kung Fu schools for my son. I wanted him to get a MA education that was substantial, where the history, lineage, and tradition were at the forefront. When paying good money for my son to learn an ancient tradition, you can bet that these details should not be peripheral. I could have easily enrolled him in a strip mall Tae Kwon Do school; there are 4 in my neighborhood alone...but substance is important to me. As it happens I'm spending more money and traveling further that I ever thought would be worth it. MA not only teaches my son respect for his physical self, but I'm amazed at how much he's grown in spirit and dicipline in just a few short months.

To sit back and say that instructors say these things, and there are ten more bogus schools for every one questioned, and that's just the way the business goes, is insulting. It's insulting to serious consumers, students, and I imagine it's also insulting the the myriad of Sifus and Shih-fus out there who take great care to preserve the sanctity of MA.

To these, I say thank you.

Respectfully,
a MA mom

[Pork Chop]

SelkieDoula

The history behind various styles always has to be taken with a grain of salt; especially since so many of them are impossible to prove. Similar to Paul Bunyon, a lot of these stories were told to entertain; but these stories also extoll certain virtues that practisioners of the style are encouraged to emulate.

By sanctity i am assuming you mean "purity" and not "holiness".
I don't know that "purity" in MA has been a priority until the last few decades; I think before the emphasis was just on whether you could fight or not.

[SelkieDoula]

Originally posted by BMore Banga
SelkieDoula

The history behind various styles always has to be taken with a grain of salt; especially since so many of them are impossible to prove. Similar to Paul Bunyon, a lot of these stories were told to entertain; but these stories also extoll certain virtues that practisioners of the style are encouraged to emulate.

By sanctity i am assuming you mean "purity" and not "holiness".
I don't know that "purity" in MA has been a priority until the last few decades; I think before the emphasis was just on whether you could fight or not.

I'm not talking about the history of the style specifically, but the integrity of the instructor and how he/she markets themselves and their schools. MA is just one way I know my son will develop great integrity himself. The relationship between Sifu and pupil borders on decipleship; the integrity of the instructor is paramount.

I did mean "purity", yes. Whether or not purity has been a priority before or not, it is a priority of my own, and should be for the instructor. I suspect the mass-marketing and popularity of MA stateside is probably the reason why purity has become a focus for moms like myself. My reasons for choosing MA over, say, soccer are rooted in that. My son is learning a way of life, not following a fad.

Respectfully,
a MA mom

P.S. I love your quote! ROTFL...such a good movie!

[Pork Chop]

Yah that is a tricky subject.

Traditional Chinese Martial Arts are based around Confucian ethics with a strong Buddhist or Taoist influence.
Traditional Japanese Martial Arts are based around the ethics of Budo.
In the west, with sports, and wrestling especially; the ethics are based around "Good Sportsmanship".

Not to sound like a total hero worshipper, but I think you'd have a hard time finding anyone in any of the above disciplines; monk or not, that carries themself (inside the ring and out) much classier than Randy Couture. His attitude can be attributed to the lessons he learned in Greco Roman wrestling; so I think any of those 3 sets of ethics I listed are equally valid.

I don't know of any easy tricks to spot the personal ethics of a particular teacher or school; aside from keeping an eye out for the examples they set. Having a deep understanding of the set of ethics the school or teacher is associating with may help you determine from the advertizing and public image as to their integrity.

[EDIT: PS, Glad you like the quote. :)]

[SelkieDoula]

Originally posted by BMore Banga
[B]Yah that is a tricky subject.

Traditional Chinese Martial Arts are based around Confucian ethics with a strong Buddhist or Taoist influence.
Traditional Japanese Martial Arts are based around the ethics of Budo.
In the west, with sports, and wrestling especially; the ethics are based around "Good Sportsmanship".

Uh oh, this is where my naivete shows. Not to oversimplify, but when I talk about ethics, I'm talking about ethics. Period. You know, like not lying. Especially when you're marketing yourself. As a business owner myself, I would never dream of marketing myself as anything more than what I am, especially in the line of work I'm in. I have a responsibility to my clients to be real.



I don't know of any easy tricks to spot the personal ethics of a particular teacher or school; aside from keeping an eye out for the examples they set. Having a deep understanding of the set of ethics the school or teacher is associating with may help you determine from the advertizing and public image as to their integrity.

I don't think there are any tricks. Personally, I looked at the school creeds, the credentials of it's instructors, it's general record, etc. I also had the bonus of having a MA expert in the family, so was able to get some guidance there. Still, if I found that my son's Sifu was misrepresenting himself, especially to the extent that GM Huang is alleged, and he flat out refused to address the question, but instead responded with lengthy rhetoric and defensive threats, I would yank my son out of there on principle alone. (How's that for a run-on sentence? :p )This is why I'm confused as to the defensive responses of his pupils. Sure, there will be some offense taken, but are they not in the least bit curious for these answers themselves?

Respectfully,
a MA mom

[smarshall]

SelkieDoula,

May I ask what school your son trains at? Or who is the teacher? How old is your son?

Happy year of the Rooster!
-s

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[smarshall]

Dear Brad,

I’ll try to answer you questions

1.Do you think that GM Huang came up with the 64-generation story or was it his teacher (or teacher's teacher?)

I think Huang made it up because Master Wang’s own daughter had never heard of it before. I’m sure it would be something his daughter would have known about.

2.What specifically do GM Huang's former classmates say about the story?

I haven’t found anyone who believes it. One of them went to Tian Mountain twice and interviewed the local martial artist including 80 year old long white bearded masters They all assured him that there is no such thing. In fact nobody has heard of it in China as far as I know. The details of this incredible journey I will save for the series of articles I am writing on the subject. These folks are not getting any younger so I am very anxious to tell their stories.

3.Which specific classmates of GM Huang object to his grandmaster title?

The more appropriate question would be: Who recognizes it? If you know any of his classmates who actually recognize him as GM, then please put me in touch with them. I would love to interview him/her.

Peace,
-Sean

[Akhilleus]

You cite IKF as some bastion of truth. Sorry my friend you need more than a self-promoting article in a trade magazine. Anyway you say the article cites Huang as a disciple of Master Wang. Don’t you realize that Master Wang had dozens, maybe hundreds of disciples?

To suggest that an article shown on the internet, which could have easily been modified electronically, proves anything would be the height of folly...however, for you to not even consider this piece of evidence in the case at hand, is also very foolish, if you are indeed seeking the truth, and are not simply seeking evidence that fits your agenda...the article mentions the 64 generations...the article was not written by Grandmaster Huang, but somehow the writer heard about the 64 generations...no big surprise there, however the article was written while Grandmaster Huang's teacher was still around...so if you are accusing Huang of fabricating said generations, you are accusing him of doing it while his teacher was still alive and could have easily called him on the claim if it was false...now you could say that "maybe Huang figured Master Wang would never read said article"...but either way, you are asking us to believe that Grandmaster Huang has not only been deceiving the public, but also that he was doing it while the person who should have most certainly discredited him was still around...

[Akhilleus]

Seriously though, as a consumer, I say it does matter. I spent a considerable time looking into Kung Fu schools for my son. I wanted him to get a MA education that was substantial, where the history, lineage, and tradition were at the forefront. When paying good money for my son to learn an ancient tradition, you can bet that these details should not be peripheral. I could have easily enrolled him in a strip mall Tae Kwon Do school; there are 4 in my neighborhood alone...but substance is important to me. As it happens I'm spending more money and traveling further that I ever thought would be worth it. MA not only teaches my son respect for his physical self, but I'm amazed at how much he's grown in spirit and dicipline in just a few short months.

SelkieDoula,
I respect your concern that your children are receiving good instruction and your patience and ability to "shop around". And I am so glad that martial arts has enriched your childs life so much...

However, I must say that if I ever have kids and sign them up for martial arts, I will use a much different criteria when choosing a school...I also must point out that most parents would also not give two glochucks as to what the lineage of a particular martial arts school was. There are reasons for this...first, many parents bring their kids to martial arts schools to help improve their grades...they might look to see what kind of discipline is instilled in children at the school and if there are any rewards for students that bring a good report card to class...they might look to see if the children perform activities that require them to focus...they might look to see if their child is being taught practical tactics for avoiding potential threats from strangers...and the best fighter in the world may not be as good at teaching kids as the instructors in the strip mall, so all of his personal skill does not benefit your child...I've worked with kids at 4 different schools, some with very successful kid's programs, some with not so successful programs...the best ones that I have seen are not the ones that teach kids to venerate the masters of yesteryear, but those that make kids' lives better TODAY

Anyway, you have your reasons for selecting a school and as I said I respect that...and it sounds like you and your child are very happy with your school, good for you...I just wanted to propose some thoughts and my considerations when selecting a school for children...

[smarshall]

Dear Akhilleus,

Don’t you realize it was the completely unsupported and self promoting article in May of 04 that has brought this issue out in the open to begin with? You whole argument is empty. Didn’t you read Selkiedoula’s question: Where are all the articles and records from generations 1-62? The only Tien Shan Pai articles written have been by Huang’s student/mouthpieces like Jon Miller. Did Master Wang read it? Did he comment on it? Rational people need evidence to draw a conclusion.

As for Selkiedoula, I assume she feels more comfortable sending her child to a school that does not need to rely on “poofery”. Sorry Selkie, I don’t mean to put words in your mouth!

You say “prove there is no 64 generations of tienshan pai”. I challenge you; Prove there is no Easter Bunny!

Another point on Master Goh. He was the first to host Kung Fu tournaments in Baltimore so Huang can thank him for that as well.

Dread out,
-Sean

[brothernumber9]

The name of the author of the article is in the bye line and also in the body of the article itself.

[SelkieDoula]

Originally posted by smarshall
[B]SelkieDoula,

May I ask what school your son trains at? Or who is the teacher? How old is your son?

You may. He's training at CMAI, with Sifu Clarence Burris. He's 10. He's getting ready to test for his yellow belt; I've never seen him so dedicated to anything, lol! (Sorry for the gush :) )


a MA mom

[SelkieDoula]

Akhilleus, I understand what you're saying. Forgive me for not being clearer before.

The history and lineage of Kung Fu in general is what I was referring to. When I'm new to a subject, I tend to ramble a bit, so please be patient. If I was looking for a, shall we say, "decorated" instructor alone, I may have chosen GM Huang's school, wouldn't I? But no, that's not what I meant. I was looking for substance, not a pretty facade. I visited the schools, paid close attention to the students, noted the interraction between them and the instructors, talked to parents, researched what I could online (not just the school websites), and followed my gut. So far, I'm confident I made the right choice...but as I said before, if a finger such as this were ever pointed at my son's school, I would not turn a deaf ear. Neither would I jump to conclusions, but as a truth seeker, I would investigate.

The history of MA in China makes up an important part of the whole MA experience, imo. This element should be present, though not fabricated or embellished upon in the hopes of attracting more students. This was my fundamental disagreement with your post. You don't care about this subject because it happens...It's common because deviant instructors will say anything to appeal to my Western ignorance in the hopes of my paying them to instruct my son in an ancient art. Wow, sounds romantic. Deviant and wrong, sure, but if it brings more money and students in... You seem to be of the mind that if a problem is common, it's not worth addressing. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but that was what I got out of your original post. I'm curious to know what schools you've experienced working with children?

Respectfully,
a MA mom

[Pork Chop]

I've been trying to think of how to word this for a few days and I still don't think I'm there.

I'm doing my best not to offend here.

It's not that the problem of crazy lineage stories is a problem that is too common so it shouldn't be addressed; it's the fact that often it CAN'T be resolved one way or another and it doesn't necessarily affect the skill, which is the important part.

If you start from the beginning; the entire legend of Bodhidharma and his connection to the Martial Arts at Shaolin is a difficult (read: impossible) to prove or find any evidence of.

Triads have long claimed a connection to the 3 blood brothers: Liu Bai, Gwan Gung, and Zhang Fei; but again, that connection is almost impossible to prove (and somewhat dubious considering the actions that some triads frequently engage in).

So many of these stories are impossible to prove.

That's why I said you have to know the culture of the ethics that you're trying to evaluate a school against.

A pretty well-known guy told me a while back "lineage doesn't mean much beyond 2 generations back". Now this is an extreme example, when you can have 3 to 5 generations worth of practisioners training together; but you can kinda get my point. Only a percentage of the knowledge is going to remain intact beyond a certain number of generations; everyone adds their own flavors to the pot.

One thing that IKF article proves is that Huang hosted Wang and that Huang was making these claims when Wang was still alive (in 1983 as we saw).

Wang had skills; Huang admits he doesn't have many tournament appearances; Huang's students have skills, which they've demonstrated in forms and full contact. The skill is the important thing.

The problem of the lineage story isn't acceptible because it's common, but because in 9 cases out of 10; it's IMPOSSIBLE to prove.

These days there are still lineage arguments of whether someone was certified under someone else; when both people have been alive in the last 20~30 years! Most of these arguments are typically resolved via photograph of some sort; but not having a photograph doesn't necessarily mean that much- it always falls back to skill.

Before Mok Gwai Lan showed up in the 70s, there was discussion over whether or not Wong Fei Hung (of Hung Gar) even existed.

In the last 10~20 years, the existance of the founder of Bak Sing Choy Lay Fut, Tarm Sam, was questioned as well; luckily that one was resolved with an old photo buried deep in someone's collection.

But say that photo never had been found and that controversy still raged, would the kung fu learned by either family have been of less value? Not at all!

64 generations by Marshall's number implies more than just centuries, but millenia. I doubt "old masters in their 80s with long white beards" (nice movie cliche btw) would know what happened 1000 years earlier if the evidence had since been destroyed.

Regardless, even if the 64 number was made up; then the issue becomes "who made it up?".

If Wang made it up, the Huang is being loyal to his sifu and continuing his "history".

If Huang made it up, then the issue of his self agrandizement could possibly be an issue- in this case, the claim was made when Wang was still alive and a statement was never released correcting it; so that's pretty strong evidence that Wang either agreed or was willing to let it happen.

See, the truth in kung fu, is that each family has their own history. This history may be impossible to prove, but it's part of the culture of the family- the lessons become more important than the dates, photographs, and evidence.

Wang was a master with a ton of skill, and a bit of notoriety. So you may say even him making up his story is a bad thing; but that's not the case in tcma culture- because he had the skill & he is in a position to decide what he wants to pass on to his family.

You'd think Master Goh has had enough problem with rumors, politics, and skeletons in the closet. It's hard to see why he would allow one of his students to dig up bones on another sifu in the area if there wasn't an agenda.

There's a traditional way to handle this and Marshall has frequently refused to handle it in the traditional way.
Honestly, this isn't to be respected or praised.

This isn't the business world in the US.
There is no Better Business Bureau that will shut down a martial arts school making false claims.
Traditionally there was the Martial Community (Mo Lum/Wu Lin); and Marshall has repeatedly opted not to persue the traditional version of the BBB.

These articles and letters through the media, without someone standing up behind them, come off as a lot of barking; though I understand that this is the way things are done out here in the land of class action lawsuits.

No offense Marshall, but if you hang the mantle of "Shih Fu" on yourself; then you should know the game you play; and know what the rules are.

I'm sure if any of those people you listed are as supportive of what you're doing as you say they are, then you'd at least be able to find SOMEONE to stand up as witness.

Traditionally if you didn't have the skills to challenge someone else's claim, you kept your mouth shut. I think this is what an earlier poster was alluding to; not the "sifu worship" that other posters picked up on.

That's my 2 cents; and otherwise, this ain't my problem- I'm just trying to give the explanation that nobody else seems willing to.

[SelkieDoula]

I thought I read somewhere in this thread that there's always some form of documentation and ceremony or something, right? So, I would think in most cases lineage could be proven, alteast for a few generations back. Again, be patient with me; I'm learning!

What is the traditional approach you're referring to?

By what you say, any instructor could claim to be the GM of anything, and that would be OK, simply because it's difficult to prove lineage? So, Shih-fu Marshall could make such a claim himself, as long as Master Goh doesn't call him out? No challenge here; I'm just asking, trying to wrap my brain around what you're saying.

I will say, though, that I agree it would be helpful if the witnesses Shih-fu Marshall cites would add their own thoughts. I tend to believe Sean, and respect what he's doing, simply from what I've read. I can't see an agenda. Perhaps those witnesses will speak up in the near future, maybe in the articles Sean is preparing. I find it incredibly hard to believe that he's misrepresenting their position. I'm sure they would have rebutted by now if that were the case.

There is something to be said for clout. True, skill alone is infinitely important, and should be recognized, but a claim of this gravity should be easy to back up. In this day and age, it's unfathomable that no written history exists. (Of course I'm not talking about the entire history. As Sean said, it would be acceptable even if Huang could produce documentation on only four generations.)

a MA mom

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by SelkieDoula
What is the traditional approach you're referring to? Lock the doors and fight.

[brothernumber9]

Some time perhaps even often it is difficult to produce the proofs people ask for even within four generations. For instance, when the Japanese invaded the east, many people fled, or were killed, or displaced and personal belongings destroyed or left behind. Some of those people were inheritors of different disciplines. They may have migrated themselves, or their students migrated to another country later in life, on down the line etc. They don't have such documents or pictures to prove their descipleships or place eventhough it is the truth. Sometimes the witnesses to bai si ceremonies or ceremonies of passing leadership are elder and die without ever promoting it to others.

On the other hand 64 generations in light of numbers of other recognizable disciplines is quite huge. It would likely make such a martial art one of the oldest. Hung Ga, I beleive but don't know, is somewhere within a few generations of 10 or 12. Choy Lay Fut has prominent exponents of between 5 and 9 generations, most hakka mantis styles are around 5, 6, or 7 generations. Shaolin itself is approaching 40 gens if not already there, but with plenty still alive from the 32, 33, 34 gens and some earlier.

[SelkieDoula]

Thank you brothernumber 9. That makes perfect sense to me. An analogy (albeit not a very good one) might be when a local library burns down, and birth and death certs or adoption records are lost, no?

I suppose my next question would be, did any such scenario occur that would have destroyed documentation of the generations of Tien shan Pai? Hundreds of years ago, dozens of years ago? It's possible that the answer is that simple, but no one has pointed to any catastrophes that would explain the lack of written history. Also, even with a lack of writings, there is still the question of why none of the old masters in China know the story. Memories and tales are sometimes the only history a nation has, but it's better than nothing. Take Ireland, for instance. Their histories were passed down through poem and song. Only the scribes were permitted or taught to write things down. I guarantee you that if I went to Ireland to ask the old people about an ancient King or hero, someone who only existed in song, everyone would know who he was. There is always some evidence of a tribe or person or place, even if it's just the memories of grandfathers who heard the tale from their own grandfathers, kwim? There's nothing wrong with legends; many times they're even true, but if the legend of Tien shan Pai were as ancient as claimed (rather than inspired by a cinematic story from the 70's) why is it not well known in China?

a MA mom

[Akhilleus]

BMores post should lay this whole thing to rest, or at least send it down a different path, but it won't...if you want to know how else I feel just read BMore's post...Sean keep asking about the 64 generations...meanwhile I will keep training to emulate their legacy...whether they are real or not...

MA mom...that makes perfect sense, and I admire your care in selecting a school...I just wanted to point out that in my experience it is rare to see a parent so concerned with the style's lineage when selecting a school...I teach at US Martial Arts

[SelkieDoula]

I get you, Akhilleus. I guess my way isn't the norm. With step-dancing, I wanted to learn all about it's place in Ireland, with Ballet, I wanted to learn all about it's place in Russia...what can I say? I'm a nerd. :)

MA mom

[Oso]

Great post, Bmore.

[Pork Chop]

Oso
Thanks :D

Selkie
Yah, I'm a nerd too. lol

Brother#9 and MK were pretty much on the money; but I just kinda wanted to spell stuff out a little more completely.

The traditional manner of settling issues was "gong sau" or "bei mo" (sorry, don't know the mandarin). Here are some good links to show I ain't makin it up:
http://www.wingchunkuen.com/why/columns/peterson/wsl05_personified.html
http://www.pantherfist.com/page2.html (2nd half of page and continuing on later pages)

They took place behind closed doors or on a lei tai. There's supposed to be a 2nd (cornerman) for each fighter and at least one neutral witness (who may or may not double as a ref/judge). The results are rarely, if ever made public. The Martial Community (Mo Lum/Wu Lin) can usually read into who the winner is; however the important thing is whether or not either fighter displayed good skill.

Traditionally, when opening a new school, there was a period of time when the new Sifu would accept any and all challenges. This was how the new Sifu would show his skill and it was an opportunity for younger fighters to get experience.

So as barbaric as "resolving differences with a challenge fight" may sound; within the context of the traditional atmosphere, it was not really so. The skill was the most important thing and you were expected to be able to demonstrate it if you were going to try to teach it (or correct someone else's).

When it comes to evidence and passing the mantle; the traditions are a little varied. When talking the disciple ceremony the main points *tend* to be serving your master tea, giving him a li si (red envelope usually containing money), and some sort of oral tradition before the school shrine (with lit incense) while at least one witness (typically a master in the area with a respected name) watches the thing. lkfmdc has similar info on his Chan Tai San thread.

The disciple ceremony is the passing of lineage onto the next generation and is a sort of an adoption. Passing on the mantle of head of the lineage (grandmaster status) seems to be a quite varied thing. Being a disciple means you have the goods to pass the style on (having lineage); being a grandmaster or being the head of the lineage for your generation is a common, tho not always necessary for a style of CMA to have.

For both of these ceremonies passing on the written documentation of the forms and the style (cantonese: kuen po, mandarin: chuan fa) is a common thing; but is not a necessary thing in either circumstance.

See, back in the day 99% of the population was completely illiterate.
There was a saying:
"the poor study to be scholars; the rich study to be martial artists"

Those that were poor who studied martial arts were usually born into it or worked as arm escort, etc. Since most didn't read or write, there was no documentation; thus the forms are important - forms were like certificates.

Forms were taught last. Once a person learned all the forms, it was considered that they'd finished the system; unlike nowadays.

Times have changed; thus, the logic of modern times here in the west cannot be adequately applied to understanding the passing of the torch in the martial arts. One must understand the history and how things were.

It was rumored that Lam Tsai Wing (of Hung Gar); among other famous masters, could not read or write. Do you think he had documentation for proof? Would it even matter? We're talking about a Master who's photographs (http://www.hungga.org/en/gallery/lsw_gjffk.htm) are still used as the prime example of how things should still be done (within his family of course).

Certificates are recent things; the telling of martial skill is in the hands. Now this does not mean you always have to fight it out to show your skill. As soon as a master shows his hands; those who know kung fu should know if he's legit or not, but if seeing is not enough, then the hands can be felt.

True lineage is more than just a piece of paper or a picture.

[Pork Chop]

here's another challenge story link that i forgot the first time around...

http://www.choygar.com/texts/en/history.aspx

[Akhilleus]

You whole argument is empty.

Thank you for noticing a weak point in my argument...can you please point out to me why my argument is empty? You tell me it is empty but then don't really explain why...the argument I was trying to make, was worded so much better in BMore's post, that I will quote him now, if I may:


Regardless, even if the 64 number was made up; then the issue becomes "who made it up?".

If Wang made it up, the Huang is being loyal to his sifu and continuing his "history".

If Huang made it up, then the issue of his self agrandizement could possibly be an issue- in this case, the claim was made when Wang was still alive and a statement was never released correcting it; so that's pretty strong evidence that Wang either agreed or was willing to let it happen.


You also said:


You say “prove there is no 64 generations of tienshan pai”. I challenge you; Prove there is no Easter Bunny!

Hmm...the Easter Bunny...do you find this "misinforming of the youth extremely distasteful?" If it were suddenly discovered that there was indeed an Easter Bunny, would chocolate somehow suddenly taste better?

[SelkieDoula]

BMore, what generation Tien shan Pai are you? What about you, Akhilleus?

MA mom

[Akhilleus]

Selkie.
According to my school's tradition, I am a 65th generation student...I think...

[Pork Chop]

I ain't tien shan pai.

I've decided to cut Shihfu Marshall some slack and I apologize if any of my comments toward him have been offensive.

however; everything i said about 'the way things were' and the 'rules of the game' are still accurate.

[smarshall]

Dear Akhilleus,

You said you are interested in the truth, but you also said that you are 65th generation. If you don’t know what the truth is, then how can you wear that title with confidence? You talk about my “agenda” but you never come right out and say what you think it is. I’m curious, what is it?
If you wear such a grand title would it be safe to say that you have an agenda. I don’t even include the name Tien Shan Pai on my website. Neither does Master Goh. I included the correspondence in my discussion paper so that my motives would be so crystal clear to the reader. First I sent Huang a very diplomatic letter asking the obvious questions. After two letters he replied with insults and arrogance. That is when my research went deeper and I began calling those that were working with him back then and made these alarming discoveries. In the story “The Emperor Wears No Clothes”, do you question the motives of the little boy for pointing out the obvious?

By adorning yourself with that title don’t you disqualify yourself from rational and unbiased discussion. Your search for the truth sounds as sincere as O.J. Simpson’s search for his wife’s killer.

“No offense Marshall, but if you hang the mantle of "Shih Fu" on yourself”

That title was given to me in a PUBLIC ceremony with dozens of witnesses by MasterGoh. Unlike Huang who claims the “grandmaster” title was given to him in secret (how convenient for Huang). Your research is about as thorough as Jon Miller’s.

“I'm sure if any of those people you listed are as supportive of what you're doing as you say they are, then you'd at least be able to find SOMEONE to stand up as witness.”

Don’t you think if they disagreed they would have said something by now? Do you honestly believe they have not read my discussion paper? Hell, they are helping me with the articles!

-Sean

[Akhilleus]

Dear Sean,
I don't have a chance to go through our whole discussion right now, but if I ever said that "You clearly have an agenda," I apologize, and should have said, "It seems like you have an agenda." The reason why I thought you might have an agenda is because you were so quick to interview many other people but when offered an opportunity, you refused to talk to Grandmaster Huang and get his side of the story...I think that you should have taken this opportunity before your internet postings, but hey that is your decision...


First I sent Huang a very diplomatic letter asking the obvious questions. After two letters he replied with insults and arrogance.

Wasn't it one of his students that wrote you back at first?


By adorning yourself with that title don’t you disqualify yourself from rational and unbiased discussion. Your search for the truth sounds as sincere as O.J. Simpson’s search for his wife’s killer.

You can call me irrational and suggest that I'm not 65th...that's fine...I really don't care and I already know that I suck compared to the great martial artists...

You go through long responses only to pick out a few minor points...Please address this point, "Does it really matter if the number 64 is made up, and who do you think made it up?"

PS Isn't it the "Emperor's New Clothes"?

PPS Please check your private messages...

EDIT: interesting research Wolfen...thanks for the info...

[Brad]

Here's a good reply from someone on another message board Sean posted this arguement at(http://www.beijingwushuteam.com). I haven't been able to log in there to reply, so I figured I'd move it over here.



This whole issue is a bunch of BS. That's my take on it. I was around in the good old days when we had people like Andrew Hartnao an Eric Chen competing I even saw Cynthia Rothrock compete back then.

What I've noticed throughout all of this is that everyone is a grandmaster. Or should I say "grandmaster". I can point out numerous claims of grandmasters from people I know personally, who wouldn't stand up to the "proof" that Mr. Marshall is requesting from Huang. They include:

Chan Pui- He has regularly said he is the 24th (or whatever) grandmaster of his style, going back to the shaolin temple. Anyone who has seen his students know that he also incorporates a tremendous amount of contemporary wushu into what he does.

Tai Yim-Where is his "proof"? I don't recall him winning any international competitions.

Lily Lau- She has a brother who apprently trained longer than she did and there are also many students of her father who claim longer training than she has had.

The late Brendan Lai-He called himself Grandmaster, but quietly deferred to Ho Yin Chung when he came over to the US.

the late Lee Kune Hung (sic)- called himself grandmaster when his only real claim to fame was producing a student named Tat Ma Wong. Sifu Hung never won any kind of international competition , I know of.

Henry Look-he claims to be a grandmaster as well. I know of several Americans who have claims that they have trained longer than him.

Henry Poo Yee- I never saw his name in competitions before. Again, the same thing. A lot of people claim they know more about the system and were in it longer than him (Gin Foon Mark is one of them, for example).

Leung Ting and William Chueng- Anyone around in the late 80's remembers that they were both the grandmaster of Yip Man and the fights that enused. Now Yip Ching in also claiming this right.

Leung Shum- claims to be a grandmaster in two systems. I doubt a serious background check on him would show that he was Lau Fat Man's true senior disciple, as he is too young.

Doc Fai Wong- Claims to be grandmaster of Choy Lay Fut and has made such claims while the other "grandmaster" Lee Kune Hung was still alive.

Leung Fu- Anyone around in 1995 knows this story and heard the rumors of a triad like "meeting" with him, Lily Lau and all that. He's been claiming to be a grandmaster for decades. So for Eagle Claw, we now have 3-4 grandmasters as the sole inheritor of Lau Fat Man's system.

Chiu Chi Man, Ho Yin Chung, Lee Kam Wing All of these guys claim to be the grandmaster of 7 star mantis. So with mantis we have at least 5 guys there too.

Adam Hsu- no proof has been offered as to his real heritage and lineage.

Chan Tai Shan- Every one who was around in the 1990's remembers his sham qigong demos where he broke bricks over his back while a student held a sword to his throat. He was the grandmaster of Lama Pai. No one challenged his credentialsm, even though his name was derived from the name of a mountain.

Liang Shuo Yu- again, there is no real record of his tournament wins.

Yang Jwing Ming- He teaches a generic shaolin style and white crane, but there is no supporting documentation that he was the sole inheritor of the style.

Anthony Goh- No "independent" verification of any of his credentials have been "proven" either. He has not made the claims of being a "grandmaster" per se, but is in a similar leadership position and retroactively made claims to prove his position.

This post is not meant in any way to denigrate the contributions of each of these highly regarded coaches, but merely to point out that the collective Kung Fu/Wushu world recognizes each of these grandmasters.

I think if Mr. Marshall shined his "light of martial unity" on many of these well respected grandmasters, most, if not all would fail the very same tests he is asking of grandmaster Huang. Keep in mind that for at least the last 20 years, Mr. Marshall, Mr. Burris, Mr. Brown and many of these who are listed as supporters of Mr. Marshall's position stood idly by and endorsed him. Now all of a sudden his claims as grandmaster is a problem?

This type of BS infighting over rank, title and ego is exactly why all chinese martial arts in the US is so screwed up. Everyone to the low ranking Sean Marshall all the way up to the greated Dr. Grandmasters are guilty of this. It's sad to see the state of chinese martial arts in the US, but we deserve it, as we've done it to ourselves to protect our imaginary little kingdoms. Even, Mr. Marshall's appeal for unity is horribly disingenuous, since it is nothing but a very well researched personal attack. However, no one he has mentioned as being one of his supporters has actually stood up in a show of support for this have they? I respect his quest for the truth, but come on. Apply this to everyone and see what happens.

It's not just at the grandmaster level. Many people pose as "Masters" as well. Look at people like John Painter, who claims to be a Colonel and a Texas Ranger as well as this Ba Gua god. NONE of that can be proven and military service is a matter of public record. Or Brian Gray of the infamous Iron Palm fame. Anyone who has seen his competition footage will recognoize the forms he does as old old contemporary forms, yet the chinese martial arts community gives him the respect that he, in his own mind, thinks he's entitled to.

If we're going to call one man out for his claims, why not call and verify everyone's claims?

[SelkieDoula]

Ackhilleus, thanks for answering my question. BMore, I apologize for my mistake.

I just have to say Ackhilleus, while I still lean towards Sean's side in this debate, I don't think there's anything wrong with your having a bias. Everyone in a debate has a bias, right? The root of that bias may be important, but I'm not sure anyone should be able to say so. I've been on debate boards for years, and what I've learned is that everyone has a reason for their bias, and it is ALWAYS personal. I'm not sure that's a bad thing...it just is what it is.

The debates I frequent always involve birth, so the general dynamic is different, obviously. (Sorry for all my analogies; you'll get used to them.) Everyone in the childbirth community has a bias, it is always personal, and it is often financially motivated. Here in VA, a new midwifery bill is in congress. A couple of weeks ago, it passed out of House and Senate. This is the first time we've ever gotten the bill through both branches of Congress! The physicians who are against the bill were so obviously motivated by the almighty dollar in their bias, yet no one told them that because of their motivation, they had no place in the discussion. They had a right to be there and to argue their side, simply because they are members of the childbirth community.

So Sean, no offense, but I feel a person's motivation for debating their side should be ignored. Let's just leave it at what they're saying, the points they're trying to make, and forget about *why* they are taking the position they are. On the flip side, Sean has been accused of having an agenda of his own. Again, I don't think that's as relevant as the content of the debate itself.

Forgive me for trying to moderate,
MA mom

[Akhilleus]

Thank you SelkieDoula,
I admit that I am biased, I mean it is my teacher in question for Pete's sake...but that doesn't mean that everything I said is invalid...

[lkfmdc]

Whoever posted the festering dung of total BS over at Beijingwushuteam.com (festering dung and beijingwusuteam.com do however go together so well)

Anyone who thinks Chan Tai San's demos were "shams" either is a total moron or was never there....

Who here can pop 14 steel wires off their torso? I know guys who tried ONE and nearly died and did NOTHING...

It should be noted that Chan tai San also frequently had people pick which ONE to pop first, would pop it, then asked someone which one NEXT, poped it, etc etc

Anyone around gonna do that?

As for the bricks, we used to pick them up off construction sites (ie STOLE THEM) because we were too cheap. Ask Ngokfei or even someone like Tat Mau Wong!!! They were never baked or played with....

Anyone who was there saw them and felt them frequently. The bricks he broke on his head he gave out... they were very f-in real

I still have CTS's sword, anyone want me to put it to theri throats?

F-in morons on the internet.....

[lkfmdc]

anyone who has a membership over there see if you can figure out who "WuTangNYC" is.... I'm curious to see who is talking such crap....

[Akhilleus]

Brad,
That is a very good point...members of the Tien Shan Pai organization have also written questions regarding claims made in IKF...they did this in a diplomatic manner (and I respect this, though they were questioning people that had shown me kindness in the past)...therefore, the Tien Shan Pai organization is also open to such questioning, and has in effect nullified the argument made in the post you quoted (this is what I was alluding to in an earlier post, and please note that I am not saying that Mr. Marshall is right, I am just saying that this is one argument that cannot be used to prove him WRONG)...I understand now that the Tien Shan Pai organization has no problem with such questions...Sean wrote a letter asking such questions, and received a very open and honest response, regarding what we do know and what we do not know...Sean had every right to ask those questions, however, his ensuing behavior, despite being given an honest answer, has been unbecoming of a martial artist of his position...

After talking with people that know the issues involved a lot better than I do, I realize that I am not really qualified to debate on this subject...I don't know much about the issues involved here so if I offended anyone, I am sorry...

[smarshall]

Greetings,

I have identified some common threads running through this discussion I would like to identify. I could not possibly site all the examples of each thread but I’ll present some.
The first one is the “Just Leave Him Alone thread”:

“In closing I think this is none of your buisness and you should just be quite”

“It seems from your point of view you do not like Tien Shan Pai and you have a problem with it for some reason....what ever the reason is let it go”

“He is telling the truth. But what if he isn't? Even if he is out right bold faced lying all you can do is keep your mouth shut.”

“I would prefer being lied to with some degree of creativity, rather than have my intelligence insulted. Let it rest.”

Then there is the “Tradition” thread:

“There's a traditional way to handle this and Marshall has frequently refused to handle it in the traditional way.”

“Marshall has repeatedly opted not to persue the traditional version”

“Traditionally if you didn't have the skills to challenge someone else's claim, you kept your mouth shut. I think this is what an earlier poster was alluding to”

“So as barbaric as "resolving differences with a challenge fight" may sound; within the context of the traditional atmosphere, it was not really so.”

“The traditional manner of settling issues They took place behind closed doors or on a lei tai.”

Here are some traditions I have grown up with which has shaped my views: Reason, Logic, Truth in Advertising, Investigative Journalism “Muckraking” (Upton Sinclair), Questioning Authority (Mark Twain), Speaking Truth to Power (MLK, Malcom X). They cite this “method” as a way of dealing with disputes. THIS IS NOT A DISPUTE! It is a line of questions about Huang’s claims in an article, which have still not been answered. Usually they follow this one up with comments about fighting:

“I'm a full contact fighter and i'm not just some Joe Schmoe emailing you because i think your wrong.”

“Lock the doors and fight”

“I'll PM or email you the when and where so you can come and show me how well you can fight then”

“There is but one way to settle this: the biggest, baddest beeeyotch fight this side of the mississippi. truly, it is the only way for either party to save face at this point.”

These are not all juveniles; some of these people are actually instructors at Huang’s. They actually believe that something can be resolved with violence. If they think that some brainwashed student of Huang’s attempts to harm me, that I would “leave it alone” they don’t know me. Do they believe that if they get rid of the questioner that the questions will go away? What do they want to fight over? Is it the title of “64 generation grandmaster of Tien Shan Pai”? I would not accept it if given to me and I don’t know anyone who would want it. Do they believe that if they win a fight somewhere that Tien Shan Temple will suddenly appear out of thin air and the 60 something “missing” ancestors will reveal themselves like magic? Or if they loose a fight Huang would stop using that title and everyone will say, “That Sean was right the whole time.” Grow up children. If you really want to defend a tradition why not defend one based in reality?
Then there is the “Everyone is Doing It So it is OK For Huang” thread:

“And GM Huang wouldn't be the first kungfu master with an improbable(maybe impossible) lineage/origin story made up by his kungfu ancestors”

“I can point out numerous claims of grandmasters from people I know personally, who wouldn't stand up to the "proof" that Mr. Marshall is requesting from Huang.”

“It's not that the problem of crazy lineage stories is a problem that is too common so it shouldn't be addressed; it's the fact that often it CAN'T be resolved one way or another”

“This history may be impossible to prove, but it's part of the culture”

“The problem of the lineage story isn't acceptible because it's common”

The foolishness of this theme goes without saying. Then there’s the “We Train Good Fighters So Huang Can Claim Whatever He Wants”:

“As for the questions about my Shi-fu...go ahead this whole thing is one big joke to me...I've trained with him and felt him do techniques and no further proof was needed for me...”


“Wang had skills; Huang admits he doesn't have many tournament appearances; Huang's students have skills, which they've demonstrated in forms and full contact. The skill is the important thing.”

Huang said that he never won any titles (I wonder if he’s ever even competed). Master Goh was an undefeated full-contact fighter in South East Asia. So by their logic Goh would be Huang’s great-grand daddy? Another common thread is the “Nobody Challenged Huang’s Title before” thread:

“…at no time have I received any complaints or questions about my position
from my classmates”

“…have never had anyone question my position or title.”

At a martial arts event a few years ago someone introduced master Christopher Pei as Master Dennis Brown’s teacher. Much later at another event master Pei took the microphone and set the record straight. He told everyone that he took his first kung fu lesson with master Brown. It took time but the truth came out. No one I knew EVER took 64 generation GM of TSP seriously. All you have to do is ask.
Another thread is the “Loyalty” thread”:

“If Wang made it up, the Huang is being loyal to his sifu and continuing his "history".”

While I find this loyalty to one’s Sifu simply adorable, what about loyalty to the truth, or loyalty to reality. Example: stretch your imagination and pretend that I am a kung fu master. I concoct a story of 108 generation Mt. Everest Fist. Would my students be loyal to me by foolishly continuing my fraud? What if one of them took my story and ran with it exploiting it at every possible opportunity for fame and fortune? What if they even incorporated it into their logo? Then they go on the cover of IKF calling themselves 108th GM of Mt. Everest Fist without naming the generations or the imaginary temple that the story has cited; is that loyalty or exploitation?

Here are some of my favorites:

“Fraud needs to be exposed. If the Tein Shan Pai is just a name for someone's Shaolin school, and not a unique style unto itself, that should be brought to light.”

“I hope others will come forward and discuss this issue with an open mind. I'm sure some will be very angry at this but sometimes the truth hurts.”

“If I ever teach it, I'm not going to make up 64 generations and pretend it's a pure lineage.”

“Oh what people will say to make themselves feel superior!”

“It is amazing that Wang Chueh-Jen, a man of of such stature and influence in kungfu all over the world only had ONE FORMAL Student! Easy to claim such a thing now that this man is dead! ONE FORMAL STUDENT?? Bah!”

“Just a quick note to say that I think the work you're doing is great and extremely important, not just for us Tien Shan Pai practitioners, but for the martial arts community as a whole. I don't post here often, but for this, I'm definitely in---you have my support! Keep on training hard and seek the truth!”

“I don't see how Mr. Marshall's questions can be construed as personal attacks. They are just questions that you haven't answered. So who are grand masters 2 - 61?”


“Blah, I think you are buried in your own lies and legend. Nobody has ever questioned your position because they didn't feel like trudging through all of your BS!”

“Firstly congrats on having the guts to speak up and out in public. Asking questions in public to those that promote themselves in public is not wrong or something to be chastised.”

“S Marshal does make a few good points, one obvious one being, if he's 64th generation, why can't he just name a few of the previous generations? Why is that so out of the question? If he's an adopted disciple, who was his witness? Is his witness still alive? Was the traditional public announcement made? WHERE was it made? Where is his "book"? Is he so high and mighty that he can't answer these questions?”

“Why come up with all this BS lineage and myth and false history and claims of being a disciple?? Is it to HIDE something?”

“So, do you have any answer as to why there are no news articles, papers, calligraphic works and so on prepared by generations 1 thru 62? Did you somehow miss the point of Shih-fu Marshall's question?”

“Sean,
Two words: Thank You!”

“VERY NICE e-mail, I would have to say you are a "lyrical genius". I believe it's a great thing you are doing. I would like to be linked to your site as you are to mine”


“Excellent work! You are right on point. You have my full support, we
need to shine the light on this issue.”

-Sean

[smarshall]

Akhileus,

I’ll attempt to answer some of your questions:

“The reason why I thought you might have an agenda is because you were so quick to interview many other people but when offered an opportunity, you refused to talk to Grandmaster Huang and get his side of the story...I think that you should have taken this opportunity before your internet postings, but hey that is your decision...”

You never stated what my agenda is. I agree with Selkie, I do have an agenda as well. I have stated it as sincerely as possible in my research. If you think I have another agenda please state what it is and tell us why you think that. Why would I call Huang? Why do he and his students keep pestering me to call him? Is he lonely? He has stated his side of the story very clearly. I sent all my questions to his website and he still has not answered them.

“Wasn't it one of his students that wrote you back at first?”

Jon Miller wrote back but began his letter saying “after consulting with Shifu…”. So it’s quite clear that Jon is just a mouthpiece for Huang. Furthermore his letter:

1) Never answered my questions (i.e. Who are the 62 TSP ancestors, and where is the temple? These are the bedrock of the title Huang sports; “64 generation GM of TSP”)
2) Was factually incorrect
3) Contradicted his own article
4) Insulted me and my Sifu
5) Was arrogant and condescending

“Sean had every right to ask those questions, however, his ensuing behavior, despite being given an honest answer, has been unbecoming of a martial artist of his position...”

How would you respond to these insults to your teacher? I think the answer is self-evident. Can you state what behavior is unbecoming? What honest answers have I been given? Huang and Jon have both danced around my questions.

By the way I’m having trouble accessing my PM’s so I’ll check it as soon as I can.

Peace,
-Sean

[smarshall]

Hey Brad,

I see you have copied someone’s post from another forum and posted it here. Have you graduated from posting peoples PMs? Or does nobody PM you anymore because of your reputation of doing this, you punk?

Well since you posted it here is my replies:


WutangNYC,

Wow WutangNYC you are putting a lot on my plate! Let me finish “Tien Shan Pai” first before I begin the long list you have handed me! Also let me remind you that this is the “Tien Shan Pai Discussion” thread. If you want to start an “Eagle Claw” thread or “Wah Lum” thread – I’ll help you with your research by telling you what I know. Why are you trying to take the spotlight off of Huang and put it on me and all these other unrelated individuals? You called these folks out online yet you offered no evidence (documents, witnesses etc). As for the completely unrelated and irrelevant questions you had from my website, just remember – I’m not claiming to be grandmaster. I suggest you start your own thread about me and my accomplishments, then you may get to the bottom of things. If you wish to add to this discussion then please stay on topic.

You say, “Keep in mind that for at least the last 20 years, Mr. Marshall, Mr. Burris, Mr. Brown and many of these who are listed as supporters of Mr. Marshall's position stood idly by and endorsed him. Now all of a sudden his claims as grandmaster is a problem?”

None of the people I interviewed have ever endorsed Huang as grandmaster (including myself!). What are you talking about? I know some of the people you named in your long list have always referred to Huang as “Grandmother Huang”. Twenty years ago I didn’t know any Master who actually took the title “64 generation grandmaster” seriously. How could they? If you know of ANY of his old classmates who actually recognize him as grandmaster please help me to get in touch with them so that I may interview him/her. My statements can be easily verified by phone calls. Have you heard any of these people come out and say that I am misquoting them, or wrong? Do you think that these folks have not read my discussion paper? Don’t you think they would come out and vehemently deny my research if they believed I was misquoting them?

Here are the reasons I have taken on this task of sorting out the truth (in case it wasn’t 100% clear to you in my discussion paper and correspondence).

1) None of these other folks you named were on the cover of IKF with headlines like “tracing the lineage” then follow up with NO lineage whatsoever.
2) None of their claims are as farfetched as Huang’s
3) The temples and people they cite actually exist (unlike Huang)
4) They did not reply to my simple and diplomatic questions with insults to my Sifu like Huang has.
5) I have good and long standing relationships with the people who were involved in Tien Shan Pai back then.


You say, “This type of BS infighting over rank, title and ego is exactly why all chinese martial arts in the US is so screwed up. Everyone…. to the low ranking Sean Marshall”
I am not guilty of this and you cannot state any circumstance.

Question, what are you talking about here, “Anthony Goh… is in a similar leadership position and retroactively made claims to prove his position.”?

In martial arts,
-Sean

ps I never did Jow Ga. You need to get better sources.


WutangNYC,

Don’t you think you are being too narrow in scope? Don’t you realize that exaggerated title embellishments are not limited to martial arts? For instance in basket weaving “Great Grand Weaver of the Yukon”, or in Rugby “Supreme Grand Puba of the Scrum”, or in ballet “Grand Princess Primaballerina of the Pirouette”. Why don’t you also address these other issues while you’re at it? Aren’t you being disingenuous by not discussing these other issues? What is your agenda in leaving these out? If your going to discuss some then you should discuss all, no? Perhaps you could do your own research and actually start your own thread. Just remember that the title of the thread is supposed to reflect the subject of the thread (i.e. “Tien Shan Pai Discussion”).

As for my modest bio on my website, I don’t think you will find it very controversial. However, a few phone calls will answer most of your questions. If there are any remaining then start a thread called “Sean Marshall’s Humble Bio”. Display the results of your legwork and I’ll help fill in the rest. I hope my advice helps you in your quest.


Let me address some of your points:

“Huang has made these claims for years. Everyone stood by and let him make these claims since the late 80's at least and no one until now decided to call him out on it. Why wasn't it done earlier by these same people who are now coming forward? That is my question. By not stopping Huang's BS then, everyone who is now comng forward is suspect as to their motives.”

This makes no sense to me whatsoever. Huang brought this out with his article. Just because no one “came out” and said it the same way I have (i.e. going through the convoluted history and displaying it on the internet) does not equal “tacit endorsement”. Many people said they thought his claims were a joke and they said so freely, why didn’t you ask them?

“I believe that many coaches would just prefer to stay out of it. To be fair and not contentious, I do not see them coming out in support of you either.”

Do you hear them rejecting my work?

“You say, ?This type of BS infighting over rank, title and ego is exactly why all chinese martial arts in the US is so screwed up. Everyone?. to the low ranking Sean Marshall"'
I used this term because you, yourself said you were a nobody. I didn't intend any disrespect to your rank or accomplishment.”

I wasn’t talking about the term “lowly”. I was talking about using fake titles and having inflated egos. You seem to imply that “even” I was guilty of that. If you believe I am please state the circumstance.

“Anthony's claims of his competitive history got more pronounced when he assumed the leadership of the WKF. To someone who was merely a competitor at the time, it seemed as if his claims of accomplishment got embellished after he got the job. Maybe he always made them known, but after he got the job it seems as if he was relying on those accomplishments more to justify his position.”

This is a completely false statement and again you shoot it off yet offer no proof or even examples. What the hell are you talking about? Everyone back then was well aware of his martial arts accomplishments. Masters Tat Mao Wong and Tai Yim both knew of his accomplishments well before USAWKF or NACMAF. Instead of making stuff up, get on the phone and ask the people who were around back then as I have. Your statements above represent a huge problem in CMA. Unsupported and false Internet attacks with not one shred of proof.

If you would like to discuss all these other unrelated topics then do the research and start your own thread as I have done and stop diluting my topic (see thread title if you do not know the topic).

-Sean

[Brad]

Hey Brad,

I see you have copied someone’s post from another forum and posted it here. Have you graduated from posting peoples PMs? Or does nobody PM you anymore because of your reputation of doing this, you punk?
I think it's hillarious that someone like you is lecturing me about "etiquette" ;) Actually I recieve quite a few private messages. And I only post your private messages on public forums... most people are sane, honest, friendly individuals. What do you expect when you acuse me of being someone I'm not? I felt you were threatening... trying to track down personal info of someone who called your teacher a fraud through me. Also making inapropriate comments about a mans child daughter in public... pretty dispicable. Then concluding that I was that person despite not having a shred of evidence. I still tried to help you out a little bit by Posting those messages the forum did allow the moderater to confirm that I wasn't even accessing through the same STATE as the dude you were trying to stalk.

I did admit to possibly overreacting though, and appologized. You never did appologize for jumping to idiotic false conclusions about my identity though. Looking back though... I don't feel too bad about it anymore.

Since you're intent on derailing your thread and making it personal, I'll go ahead an post your pms again.

Just for a little background info (for curious readers), some dude named boxerrebel had his screen name used by someone else (probably a roomate or friend of his, I'd guess) to accuse Anthony Goh of being a fraud. I posted on that site as magicstance but this idiot couldn't seem to figure out that we were different people. No one took the post seriously as it had little to no info, and the few of us that bothered to post on that thread only did so to tell the guy to get more info(or something like that... it was the old message board, so all the posts are gone now). Sean for some reason decided to try and dig up the thing after it was burried and unnoticed for quite awhile. The only thing I did was try to explain what exactly happened with boxerrebel.

Here's the exchange:

-------------------------------------------------------------
Sean Marshall: I saw what you had written about a mix up with names, but I don't quite follow you. Did somebody post something using your name? I read a very inflamatory post regarding my Sifu and the name was "boxerrebel". People here always use screen names so there is no way to know who is who. I don't know how far back it is but I certainly don't have time to keep up with the flow. It is just too much. I would have to be here every waking hour. So please let me know if there was a mix up, but whoever said those things should apologize soon. thank you -Sean Marshall

Brad(magicstance, not boxerrebel)Bauman: Basically, someone had other than boxerrebel used his screen name without his knoweledge and made the inflamatory post.

Sean Marshall: Is there a way to find out who?

Sean Marshall(again!):Then who is the real boxer rebel?

Brad(still not boxerrebel)Bauman: From what I gather the real boxerrebel is someone who doesn't post much(maybe once or twice before)... kind of a lurker... reads the boards but doesn't get involved. The only way to find out who did the trash talking against Goh is to send a private message to boxerrebel and hope he found out who it was and hope that he is willing to tell you.

Sean(going into creepy stalker mode)Marshall: Well Brad, frankly I don't know how to search for boxerrebel and I heard it was you anyway. Sean Marshall

Sean(officialy off his rocker)Marshall: question: what does C. C. Liu's bad English have to do with disrespecting my Sifu? Did Mr. Liu's accent cause a brain malfunction?

Brad(WTF is going on?!)Bauman: (here I try quoting him so he knows exactly what I'm responding to)
"Well Brad, frankly I don't know how to search for boxerrebel and I heard it was you anyway. Sean Marshall"

Just find a page where boxerrebel posted. I think it's seven or eight pages back, maybe. Then you pm him like you did me(asuming he has his pm's turned on). No, I'm not boxerrebel.

"question: what does C. C. Liu's bad English have to do with disrespecting my Sifu? Did Mr. Liu's accent cause a brain malfunction?"

How the hell should I know? I don't know who C.C. Liu is, I've never met him or Anthony Goh. Again, I am not boxerrebel. Who's telling you that I am?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

This all happened about a year ago... not really relevant to this thread, but what the heck. If he wants to make it personal and bring up this old s#it again...

[Brad]

Anyway, you're going on my ignore list. Feel free to lie about me and insult me on here, as I'm not going to be able to read what you write from now on anyway.

[smarshall]

Good riddance Punk

What bradley failed to mention was that the reason he stated for posting my private message was “in case his body was found washed up in the river”. Only the mentally deranged will find a threat of violence in this private message. Keep in mind that all the “stalker mode” BS was his additions. This same message he apologized for posting, then he posted it again anyway! The alleged comments about someone’s daughter he conveniently failed to display (because it never happened). We don’t need these mentally disturbed punks in this forum so goodbye punk!
-s

[Pork Chop]

I've been debating on whether or not to add even one more reply to this thread.

Your attitude and arrogance about the traditions you pretend to be passing on, display the true level of your martial ethics (wu dei, mo duk).

You've demonstrated that discussing this matter any further would be utterly pointless and futile.

I don't care what big names put their arms around you, I truly feel sorry for any poor soul that trains with you hoping to learn the real deal.

Those who know, realize this and have remained quiet.
I've only added this parting shot to let those who aren't aware know what the reality is.

[smarshall]

Mr. Banga,
What happened to this:

"I've decided to cut Shihfu Marshall some slack and I apologize if any of my comments toward him have been offensive."

I hope you find the help you need to resolve your personality conflicts.
Yours truly,
-s

[Pork Chop]

heheh that would make sense if you hadn't said all that stuff against my quotes and the traditions I was referencing...

Saying I'm walking away from this doesn't automatically continue to apply if you walk up and smack me in the face as i'm leaving. lol

[smarshall]

Oh Are you still here?
Goodbye good luck

[ngokfei]

Style Tribute Signboard - Starting at only $99 (Choice colors and Calligraphy Styles)

[ngokfei]

wow I think I should of read some of the read before resurecting it LOL

anyhow here is an interesting bit of info regarding the usage of the Tien Shan Pai in a series of Wuxia Novels.

http://baike.baidu.com/view/1481533.htm?func=retitle

here's a quick google translation :

Tianshan Pai
<
Tianshan School martial art , which is often mentioned in the martial arts to the proportion of of Liang Yusheng novel Tianshan Pai occupy almost half of them in particulars. In addition, Jin Yong's novels also send.

Directory

Tianshan Pai Profile
Tianshan Pai mentioned in the book

Edit this paragraph Tianshan Pai Profile
Tianshan sent Chong send Patriarch: Huotian Du.
Huotian Du fathers and sons, are committed to the factions Jianpu the gathering, Li Xin hit a new school of swordsmanship. Zhang Danfeng pointing the Huo Tiandou sword Great, start-up Tianshan Jianpai, but parted ways with his wife Lingmu Hua. Of Huo Tiandou the disciples the Huiming master Huo Tian-Yun.
The Tianshan sent to carry forward: Huiming master.
Huiming Master Huo Tiandou to Tianshan three years after closing disciples Arts into in Liaodong by is slightly Xiong Tingbi given them any Counsellor. After coach Xiongting Bi emperor pass the first nine side lover to Tieshan Hu in his death, discouraged under a monk, Buddhist name Huiming, Tianshan accompany Master. Huotian Du soon passed away, to Huiming took over as the creation of the Tianshan send burden.
Huiming Masters
Formerly known as Yue Mingke is received by the the Huo Tiandou to the Tianshan three years after the only disciple, Arts into in Liaodong by is slightly Xiong Tingbi given them any Counsellor. Northeast produced good platinum and fine iron, Xiongting Bi intend to cast a sword (after the the Guizhong Ming income), called Yue Mingke responsible for. Yueming Ke Master Huo Tiandou the cast through two swords, Longjian of Yueming Ke. The Yue Mingke do not understand this rule, because the way is long, can not return to the Tianshan , I think of the Shaolin "Longquan hundred refining tactic", it is better to pick up, and the soldiers casting Weaponry.
The Yueming Ke learn from, coincides with gold monoid attack Shaolin, so the chase, with monoid lose-lose, Credit goes to the Tieshan Hu and his back-to-back Shaolin Temple modulating. Since then both of them together Miles that Tie Feilong misunderstanding, send Lian Nichang the matchmaking. The Yueming Ke has twice the palace for the first time to look into the depths the Keshi some of the activities, but lost Longjian, so only the second palace. Sword later for the Lian Nishang obtained, return Yueming Ke.
The Lian Nichang for the Tieshan Hu matchmaking is denied, Tie Feilong and Yue Mingke of with the rift, the Tieshan Hu is exodus later Lianni Chang found together in Shaanxi Mingyuexia, Luocao. Later experiencing famine affected the people requires to attack Lu County opening, and food. Tieshan Hu Jin monoid chase, Yue Mingke rescue fails, distraught the beheaded gold monoid. Yueming Ke see the Tieshan Hu is dead, Xiong Tingbi, the emperor pass side first nine discouraged under a monk, Buddhist name Huiming, Tianshan accompany Master. Huotian Du soon died, Huiming took over as head. The foot of the Tianshan Huijiang reputation is very good.
Huiming master three disciples in: Yang Yuncong the Chu Zhaonan Ling Weifeng.
Yang Yuncong
Is the late Ming Hyobu Decadence Yang Lian 's son, after the death of Yang Lian, The Bride With White Hair guidance Lo Tiebi to him with . Into the night the capital die see Nalanminghui from the hands of the New York Hu-Lu.
Chu Zhaonan
It is famous traitor, seeking refuge with the Manchu government, Muztagh Ata mountain battle Xiaoduan Ling Weifeng right thumb, its lifetime can not be shipped sword. Died in the hands of Yilan Zhu.
The first generation of the official head of the Tianshan sent: Ling Weifeng.
Ling Weifeng nickname Mu Lang, and Liu Yufang childhood, because of the youth say the whereabouts of the volunteer army, and Liu Yufang fell, after a chance encounter into Beijing to see his wife Yang Yuncong, under his guidance on the Tianshan worship Huiming as a teacher, spasm of the way due to cold infection. Muztagh Ata mountain battle the spasms hair as Chu Zhaonan Suoqin, Xiaoduan thumb on the labyrinth of the Potala Temple, thanks to Han Zhibang Zhou Qing rescue. Ling Weifeng teach Zhou Qing Yi Herd sword, he is identified as a secret disciple. The back exercises Tianshan the Huiming book boxing secrets, and took over command of the bit in the third generation of the Tianshan sent. Ling Weifeng is the first official head of the Tianshan Pai.
The Tianshan sent the South Branch of the Patriarchs: Ling Yunfeng (Lingmu Hua).
The Ling Muhua, Huo Tiandou the wife, non-Jon mettle, to bring Jianpu gone to the opposite direction, hit a diametrically opposed set of Tianshan sword. Lingmu Hua adopted a female wolf , as a disciple Lianni Chang.
Tianshan sent the South Branch of the founder: to Lian Nishang.
Also known as Jade Raksha Lianni Chang, formerly of the late Ming dynasty Sichuan and Shaanxi Road, a drama Pirates Boss love Zhuo Yihang the avail, becomes gray hair and his head. Frustrated under flee Tianshan open cases LiPai, claiming Tianshan Pai south branch, and the the Huiming northern branch of the rival.
Lian Nichang the disciples two: Feihong Jin, Wu Qiongyao to the.
Feihong Jin
The original Minghamaya famous hi Junction Red Scarf rode. Hui Jiang Rob clan chiefs Tannu daughter. Love Yang Yuncong, the learned after Yang Yuncong love Nalanminghui become white hair and his head. After Yang Yuncong's death, she raised for the Nalanminghui Yilan Zhu Yilan Zhu Youhuan her mother,. Finally, the titular chief Huijiang of all ethnic groups. "Beyond the Great Fairy"
Wu Qiongyao
Wuyuan Ying's daughter, Bride With White Hair close disciples. After married Lisi Yong husband died in western Sichuan, the Wu Qiongyao then also with a son and daughter, returned to settle in the Tianshan Mountains .
Tianshan sent Seven Swords: of Yang Yuncong, Feihong Jin, Chu Zhaonan, Xin Longzi, Ling Weifeng, Liu Yufang, Han Zhibang.
The first Acts the Xin Longzi Zhuo Yihang. The compliance 'life care more than forty years of excellent night-blooming cereus, is Chu Zhaonan use. After Ling Weifeng, Shi Tiancheng point wake up, Muztagh Ata mountain battle to save Dan Tiancheng Qi zhenjun die, left command Han Zhibang the Guizhong Ming to study Dharma one hundred and eight-.
The Tianshan send Seven Swords: Feihong Jin Ling Weifeng and the Guizhong Ming, Mao Huanlian, and Yilan Zhu, the Zhanghua Zhao, Wu Qiongyao
The head of the second generation of the Tianshan sent: Tang Xiaolan.
Tang Xiaolan the Zhou Qing disciples, after Yilan Zhu division disciples, fencing course for three years, took over the Tianshan portal. Tang Xiaolan's wife Ying Feng. FENG Ying, sister Feng Lin, Meng mountain camp the Lv Siniang three collectively known as the "Wild Woman". Tang Xiaolan old age with Lv Siniang game climb Mount Everest, reached the height of eight thousand two hundred and fifty meters. Tang Xiaolan disciples bell exhibition . Tang Xiaolan, the son of Don by the day, the head of the Tianshan to send three generations. Tang Xiaolan old age in danger of losing Lisheng Nan disintegration of the demons Dafa.
The head of the third generation of the Tianshan sent: the Tang by day.
Tang Jing Tian Tang Xiaolan Ying Feng the sub, marrying the Bingchuantiannv Guibing E wife.
Tianshan sent the fourth-generation head: Don source.
Don source the Tang by day, and Bingchuantiannv Guibing E's son, the marry exquisite jade wife.

[ngokfei]

- continued -

Some other characters
Han Zhibang
The original world total Duozhu, love Liu Yufang and let total Duozhu bit, willing to subordinate. In a grotto in the "Dharma one hundred and eight" Jianpu, the after Jianpu is Xin Longzi-removed. Han Zhibang died in the Potala Palace, could not bear to see Liu Yufang sad personally for Ling Weifeng death.
Zhang Huazhao
The son of former Minglu king hand man, General Zhang Huangyan . Zhang Huangyan against the Qing Dynasty famous, mysterious word, No. Cangshui. Zhang Huazhao to assassinate Emperor Kangxi in the Wutai Mountain , accomplished. Then to night raid Qingliangsi siege by the guards rescued three princesses, by Nalanrongruo protection. Yilan Zhu love Yilan Zhu Feihong Jin away, the Zhanghua Zhao Ling Weifeng, Guizhong Ming three were on the Tianshan Mountains Meet The Bride With White Hair. Zhang Huazhao Ying Zhuo Yihang, testament mined gifted the Epiphyllum two dedicated Bride With White Hair, Bride With White Hair donation of Yilan Zhu. The Zhang Huazhao to count of Zhuo Yihang the Geshi disciples, included in the Wudang walls and doors, the Guizhong Ming Young.
Liu Yufang
His father Liu Jingyi Ming Lu Wang Department of the next generals from Liu Jingyi's death, the king was merry old unit leader acclaimed Liu Yufang, after the headquarters cavalry Han Zhibang world will merge, the world will total Duozhu . 1984 revision of the "Seven Swords" appears at the end part of the great change, Mao Huanlian removed from the Tianshan Seven Swords ", will be replaced by Liu Yufang. However, this revision does not seem popular, such as mainland China the Guangzhou Tourism Press, Flower City Publishing House jointly launched the "the Liang Yusheng martial arts Complete Works" series "Seven Swords" its end of the part will remain Mao Huanlian the normalized one of the Tianshan Seven Swords ". So, to say that Liu Yufang one of the "Seven Swords" is not unfounded.
Yilan Zhu
The daughter of the Yang Yuncong Nalanminghui. Yang Yuncong to dissatisfaction wife, Nalanminghui, Bong Fuming married to many priests, sneaked into the capital do not want to flee, because Minghui Tianshan the Yang Yuncong snatched his daughter Yilan Zhu. Out of the city after the ambush, kill New York Hu-Lu, dying care Ling Weifeng daughter bring Tianshan . Minghui and many priests marry is Chu Zhaonan idea, Yilan Zhu Shenhen the the Chu Zhaonan, Qi Tianshan north and south in two martial arts, will eventually the Chu Zhaonan beheaded with the Potala Palace. The Yi Lanzhu Bride With White Hair is the third generation after Xianhua of the Zhang Huazhao won the excellent tan to give her a dose of black hair , was able to restore .
Guizhong Ming
The surname Shi, his father, Dan Tiancheng for Zhuo Yihang disciples. Apprentice Dan Tiancheng and the Gui Tianlan are Sichuan heroes YE Yun-sun. The Gui Tianlan brothers, Dan Tiancheng Young, the martial art insiders Pichu Sichuan. The Guizhong Ming's mother is only daughter of YE Yun-Sun, married Dan Tiancheng. The Manchu invasion Sichuan Shi Tiancheng home in southern Sichuan, to go back to meet the family to refuge in northern Sichuan. Then the Guizhong Ming the mother of another pregnant, can not be accompanied by the Shi Tiancheng leaving exhortations the Gui Tianlan to take care of the Guizhong Ming mother and child. The Manchurian Army scored Sichuan, Ye Gui duo fled the way married, the matter was later Shi Tiancheng detected the angry down to the Tianshan for worship Zhuo Yihang, teacher, learning Wudang martial arts. After to jiange revenge met with Chung knowingly son, want to recognize three Golden Circle, Chung Ming Fat attack him, twisting gas to jump off the cliff. The the Guizhong Ming after that Shi Tiancheng Affiliation away from home collapsed in the wild, Tests showed he needed the Wulong help culprits, lost his memory. In Pingxi House effectiveness, after Mao Huanlian wake up, because the Xi Dharma Jianpu, became the originator of Wudang north branch. The he sword name Tengjiao "the Liaodong in the former slightly Xiongting Bi saber.
Mao Huanlian
The daughter of of Mao Bijiang Dong Xiaowan. Dong Xiaowan Shunzhi strong move into the palace, that folk said Dong Efei. By Mao Bijiang excessive thoughts of his beloved wife died of illness. The the friend of of Mao Huanlian worship Mao Bijiang, Fuqingzhunvke as a teacher, learning Promise martial arts school. The Friends with Nalanrongruo. Three sons, the Guizhong Ming with Mao Huanlian sterile second son Guihua Sheng flee Nepal, marry the Huayu Gong main wife. The Guihua Sheng female Guibing E shall be Bingchuantiannv .
Liang Yusheng, a total of 35 sets of books - from Illustrating the Jinghua start to the end of the Wudang sword ~ ~ there is the originator of the Hong Kong martial arts to Jin Yong's still early to colleagues ~ Ta Kung Pao editorial and Jin Yong ~
Most famous work is the Seven Swords ~ Bride With White Hair ~ Pingzongxiaying, recorded ~ Jade Bow ~ Swordswomen Three ~
Basically, each book characters can be connected to
For example: "Pingzongxiaying recorded" Zhang Danfeng \ Joe North sea ~ ~ Zhang Danfeng "scatter flowers Woman" until Feihong Jin ~ "Beyond the Great Fairy" ~ to "Seven Swords" Ling Weifeng ~ "rivers and lakes Woman "the Lv Siniang, Tang Xiaolan ~ ~ Bingchuantiannv Biography" the Tang Jing Tian ~ ~ "The Jade Bow" Jin Shiyi, Lisheng Nan (Joe North sea successor) ~ and the Patriotic Knights Jinzhu Liu Jiang Haitian ~~ then " Makino, Meteor Jinbi Yi ~ ~ in fact also added mingled with several works to such as "冰魄寒光剑"
Edit this paragraph Tianshan Pai mentioned in the book
11 "Hoan Kiem strange circumstances recorded" 12 "Pingzongxiaying recorded" 13 " scatter flowers Woman "
14 Joint sword Tale "15" martial arts Ruin "16" the Guangling sword "
[ Tianshan series]
18 "Bride With White Hair" 19 "beyond the Great Wall Fairy" 20 "Seven Swords"
21 "Swordswomen Three" 22 "冰魄寒光剑" 23 "Bingchuantiannv-Biography"
24 "The Jade Bow" 25 "Ice Sword recorded" 26 "wind Lei Chen Kyushu"
27 "the Patriotic Knights" 28 " tour sword arena "29" Makino meteor "
30 " fingertips thunder "31" must plug scrum recorded "

[Pork Chop]

Probably a bad thread to resurrect.

Thought that last post about "good riddance punk" was directed at me. Didn't see Brad's name in it, which is why I posted. Tried to play it diplomatic there for a bit, because a bunch of people were asking us to. Didn't work out so well in the end.