Experience Through Chi Sao

[couch]

How long to you think it took you to get good at Chi Sao?

What signs did you notice when you realized that things were slowly coming together for you? Was it being able to block your seniors attacks, etc?

Also, is there anyway to improve your Chi Sao between partner-training sessions? Chain punching? Forms?

Your thoughts appreciated,
Kenton/Couch

[Ernie]

When I stopped talking and started listening =)
Then when I was able to do something with what I heard!
Now I can dictate the conversation or just answer questions.

In the beginning we are enamored by ourselves, getting shapes and positions and making them as ‘’ perfect’’ as we can

At this stage we are only talking to ourselves not relating to the other person, no different then a fight were to people just crash force on force and try and will there perspective onto the other person

Then our shapes and postures and basic mechanics start to work together [empowerment stage] we can generate energy and flip from shape to shape, we feel the structure and see the results of it, but this still is not chi sau often speed and reflex will dictate this stage, we still are not relating or listening we are just reacting to predetermined reference points with in the confines of the drill [connected or disconnected, sticking or chasing /closing] this is the most common stage people stay stuck in for years , they think there improving but there just getting better at repeating fixed mechanics , problem is they can hit and create forward pressure and cut angles and all the fun stuff , still not chi sau , still
Ego driven still not really hearing what the other person is telling you!



Then some not all people let there ego go and learn to lose, they start to listen with there shapes instead of reacting they learn to accept what is offered, they flow with the energy and learn to ride the wave. This is the beginning of chi sau

People feel safe hear they can control and guide the people trapped in the earlier stages, often people stay stuck at this level and become chi sau ‘’ so called masters ‘’ they can impress you with there sensitivity and make you feel off balance turn there power on and off be heavy as a mountain or empty like air all while the less skilled go wow!


To get the final stage were real growth is you must be willing to take chances, kind of blend all the stages together, the clarity of structure the ego/selfishness of speed and power guided by the experience and calmness given by sensitivity, all things must gel

As in a fight we need to take risk, we need to be selfish, but we calculate the risk as best we can by the skill and confidence that comes from experience

The last and most important part is you character that will dictate the expression of the skills you apply, some people are show men [I’m a bit of a ham] some are very serious, some don’t ever really want to hurt anyone

This is when you are being honest with yourself and good at chi sau

These skills are the skills you carry over into fighting but that is another level all together :D


Scoring on your seniors means nothing
;)

[old jong]

This is much too long to learn and progress this way.Just go at it with boxing gloves and helmets and learn by trial and error. :p

[Matrix]

I'm with you Old Jong. Chi Sao is a waste of time.:rolleyes: Just fight, fight fight. :p

[Matrix]

Kenton,

Just in case is wasn't obvious, my previous comment is pure sarcasim.

I think Ernie has offered some excellent advice.

The key is to remove expectations of "getting good" at chi sao. Just flow with the exercise and learn to feel the energy, both yours and your partners. Oddly enough, by be willing to "lose" so that you can undertand what is happening, you in fact "win".

If you focus too much on results, they seem to become more elusive. Instead, just be present in moment and fully participate in the experience. For me, the problem has always been relaxing. If you are not relaxed, you cannot feel the subtle signals of changing forces that tell you what your partner is about to do. To that end, you can work your forms in a more relaxed manner. Learn to trust the structure and not rely on muscular strength.

Just my opinion,

[anerlich]

OJ, glad to see you're not calling BS on others' points of view and practicing what you have preached on other threads.

If we take chi sao as a drill designed to develop structure and sensitivity, I think you're looking for improvements in the ability to maintain that structure under increasing pressure, to handle your partner's attacks, depending on their level (one off cheap shots don't count, more percentages over time), and to pass their defence with your own attacks.

How else could chi sao skill be evaluated? Other than by an external judging process like figure skating, gymnastics, diving, etc.?

I'd imagine that after a few months you'd be able to successfully handle most chi sao neophytes. Though in any group individual progress will happen at different rates, and catching up to others is hard because they will train and improve at the same time you will.

It's similar to boxing or BJJ in that regard. Though IMO that does not make the drill of chi sao equivalent to either of those. some areas of similarity do not imply equivalence.

[SAAMAG]

As stated previously in some form or fashion, when practicing chi sao, the goals are not to hit the partner or keep the partner from hitting you, (in all honesty, both of those tasks are quite easily done).

What's not easily done is learning to apply the wing chun using structure alone, focusing on keeping relaxed to aid in the main point of the drill of using sensetivity to recognize and react to the "energy" or flow.

[anerlich]

Vankuen,

I know what you mean, but if we are talking about "measurable progress" you need some means of quantifying that, or, "scoring".

No coincidence, I guess, that what chi sao competitions there have been have been solely to do with points awarded for striking the other person, though an interesting idea of group evaluation by peers was raised on another thread a while back.

I'm not sure I agree that it's easy to stop ALL others hitting you if they want. I could introduce you to some people who I'm sure could change your mind on that score ...

[Stevo]

Originally posted by couch
Also, is there anyway to improve your Chi Sao between partner-training sessions? Chain punching? Forms?

Your thoughts appreciated,
Kenton/Couch


The first form (first section especially).

Poon Sau on your own, working on keeping elbows in, shoulders down, relaxation, stamina, forward intention (or whatever).

Reflection on what happened in the last Chi Sau session or what you might try in the next session.

[Nick Forrer]

In Chi sau your aim should be

1) to retain a subtle forward pressure at all times (lat sau Jik Chung) which will enable you to instantaneously detect and take advantage of any gap in your opponents structure/defences

2) to neutralise your opponents forward force, either by absorbing it through your structure ( that is channeling it into the ground via the correct alignment of the six points: wrist, elbow, shoulder, hip, knee and foot) or, if it is too great, turning your stance to divert it away. You should not have to take a step back unless he takes a step forward. If the force is not forward you should ignore it (that is not interact with it but to slip/pass/go around it).

If you focus on these things you are bound to improve.

Another tip: Since the shapes in wing chun are designed to neutralise forward force, to break/collapse the shapes (and thus establish a clear line of attack) you may need to apply a non forward force i.e. one that is either down sideways or up. However the trick is to do it not with the wrists (which your opponent can flow around and which will leave you vulnerable to attacks) but with the elbow. This in turn requires that you are at close range to begin with i.e. elbow to elbow or at least your elbow to their wrist rather than your wrist to their elbow.

To use tan sau as an example, this is like a wedge that dissipates forward force very effectively but which is very weak to a sideways force applied at the wrist (you can push someones tan sau across using your little finger only). However if you push sideways on the wrist with your own wrist you are vulnerable either to an elbow from the same arm or from a strike from the other arm (provided it is chambered i.e. not already extended). However by pushing sideways with the elbow the net effect is the same (destroying the tan sau and establishing a clear line of attack with your fook sau) but you are not vulnerable in the same way. Just make sure your gun (i.e. your forearm) is pointed at the target (i.e. your opponents centre) throughout.

[stuartm]

Hi,

Id probably agree with Nick on this one.

I also think its very difficult to say at any one point that your chi sao is 'good'. Quite often as in any sports you reach a plateau where you are happy with your current position and then find that you progress very little for a certain period. It is this cycle of improvement that allows us to develop.

I think we should avoid assessing ourselves anyway, its not a productive approach. Just train and absorb and improvemnt will occur as a natural outcome.

Stu

[t_niehoff]

To ask "how do we get good at chi sao?" in my view is already moving in the wrong direction. It's the wrong focus. Chi sao is a drill; the object of a drill is not to get good at the drill but rather to use the drill to develop certain aspects of WCK. The important question is "how do I get good at WCK?"

You must recognize which aspects you are working on with the drill (chi sao). And recognize a significant problem associated with this training -- you can focus on all kinds of things, can "do" the drill in all kinds of ways, "develop" all kinds of things. How group A approaches chi sao is different than how group B approaches chi sao. What is the "right" way to practice the drill? Part of the answer, IME, is that there is no "right" way to do the drill; you do it in such a way as to develop what you are after at that moment. And that may change over time. The other part of the answer is a question: how do you know what you need? As a rank beginner, a teacher will point you to certain things, a certain approach, to develop certain thing he/she thinks is important. But that's based on ignorance -- so how do you *know* what you need to develop *to be good at WCK*?

You get what you train for -- if you don't know what you are training for, what you want to develop, then you won't get it. If you train chi sao to get "good at chi sao", you will get good at chi sao (that's the focus of your training), good at playing that game. If you *use* chi sao to get good at WCK, to develop your WCK fighting skills, then you will get good at WCK.

[couch]

WoW! Thanks to everyone for their excellent points.

I guess I feel overwhelmed with all the techniques/shapes or whatever is going on in Chi Sao at times. I did when I started and still do now. Hands flying, I'm getting beat to snot. Laf. I have my good days where my elbow is in and bad days where I left my elbow at home.

I guess what I'm wondering is...does it get easier with experience? Just like everything else in life?

Excellent posts on the focus of Chi Sao. It's very hard for me to relax to feel those subtle changes as well as give in at times. It's a hard drill to play. :)

Thanks again,
Kenton

[Matrix]

Originally posted by couch
I guess what I'm wondering is...does it get easier with experience? Just like everything else in life? I don't know if it gets easier. As you become more accustomed to chi sao the drill should become more and more dynamic. You can start with poon sau - basically just rolling - then add other elements. So, as you get comfortable, you and your training partners should be raising the bar.


It's very hard for me to relax to feel those subtle changes as well as give in at times. It's a hard drill to play. :) That will come, guaranteed. As long as you're patient. Relaxation is essential to getting to where you want to go. If it weren't "hard" everyone would be doing it. Regardless of what the nay sayers will tell you. ;)

[old jong]

Originally posted by Matrix
If it weren't "hard" everyone would be doing it. Regardless of what the nay sayers will tell you. ;)

It is not easy at all! A normal Wing Chun progression,providing you are learning with a good Sifu will bring drawbacks,questionings,doubts,boredoom and the rest!...You are doing it,not your Sifu. ;)

[Matrix]

Old Jong,
Good point. I comes back to the point of not be fixated on specific results, such as "block your seniors attacks". The process is not linear, it has it's ups and downs and challenges. Persevering in the face of what appears to be a slump or plateau in your progress is essential. A good sifu is also important. Do you know any? ;)

[old jong]

You are right! The "results" we are looking for with Chi Sau are not in winning a sticking or "steering wheel" contest as somebody likes to put it. It is a developmental process on the long run. Focus should be putted on self-control first then controling the opponent but,this is almost a by-product of the practice.
Structure and relaxed power are gained through form practice and these principles should be kept during Chi Sau. And everything else!...;)

I got that from a good one we both know! ;) And it works!...;)

[stuartm]

Hi again Matrix,

If its any use to you , i had a really depressing phase a couple of years back when i left the association i was in because i preferred the emphasis in another wing chun line.

When i left that school and opened my own i basically had no-one to Chi Sau with as i was teaching beginners and only seeing my teacher 5 or 6 times a year, and my old instructor wouldnt train with me anymore.

It is only now after running a club for three years that my students are getting good at chi sau and i am starting to feel a bit better about my chi sau again.

Peaks and troughs mate - thats just the way it goes!

Peace, Stu

[couch]

Originally posted by old jong
It is not easy at all! A normal Wing Chun progression,providing you are learning with a good Sifu will bring drawbacks,questionings,doubts,boredoom and the rest!...You are doing it,not your Sifu. ;)

At least I'm not alone in this world feeling all these things!

I tell ya...going to school for 3 years, learning Wing Chun, waiting for the right time for X. Stupid patience. Laf.

Kenton

[Matrix]

Originally posted by stuartm
Peaks and troughs mate - thats just the way it goes! Stu,
I absolutely agree. Those troughs can be tough, but just remember that another peak is not too far away.

[old jong]

Originally posted by stuartm
Hi again Matrix,

If its any use to you , i had a really depressing phase a couple of years back when i left the association i was in because i preferred the emphasis in another wing chun line.

When i left that school and opened my own i basically had no-one to Chi Sau with as i was teaching beginners and only seeing my teacher 5 or 6 times a year, and my old instructor wouldnt train with me anymore.

It is only now after running a club for three years that my students are getting good at chi sau and i am starting to feel a bit better about my chi sau again.

Peaks and troughs mate - thats just the way it goes!

Peace, Stu

Stu!
I went through the same experience!...I got so rusted that I had to oil my elbows every night or they were making squeeky sounds!...At last, this stage of my life is done and over.And now,I sometimes sign already experimented students. I even have two good Si-Dai as students!
I like your new website BTW.
All the best!