Alternate form of chi sao?

[SAAMAG]

Hey guys, the other thread asking about chi sao got me to thinking today about a session I had with a student of mine.

This particular student knows of my cross training and experience with various styles of martial arts...and my personal ideas of not being limited by a styles doctrine.

So today, in the middle of doing some coordination and reaction drills...he asked me about the effectiveness of wing chun in the various ranges of combat. (this particular question revolved around the constant barrage of punches that can come when in clinching range)

So I did a sensetivity drill with him, asking him to only "meet" my hands as they come at him with various punches from various angles and in various forms. As Im doing this drill, he is free to use whatever he wants to meet my hands...this is to build attributes rather then sharpen any particular hand form(s). In the middle of the drill I have him throw out a counter hit, while still keeping the flow and not being hit by any of my hands. This makes him learn about "half beats" and insertion of technique amidst a constant barrage. After a while we ened up converting into more short bridging rather then the long bridge (keeping to the hands), and into more of a chi sao, but without the "circle".

I would still come at him with whatever technique I wanted, whenever I wanted, be it straight, curved or any variation in between. It proved to be a very interesting drill, allowing one to apply wing chun but not limiting them to it. It also showed very evidently when, and where wing chun worked and where it didn't (speaking in a stuctural sense alone)

So at the end of the session I asked him what he thought...he said that he liked the fact that the "freedom of movement" was there and it allowed him to just react, without regard as to whether or not it was "right or wrong" based on one styles say so. I asked him how his wing chun faired vs. his muay thai techniques...or whatever else he used. He said that although the wing chun was prevelant, that in some ranges and situations it didn't seem to work so well because of the angles, and circular movements used.

So basically this "Freeform chi sau" seemed to help give an idea of how wing chun would work (for his skill level) against a non-conforming attacker at that range.

Have any of you all tried anything like this? Think this is a good idea? Bad? If so why?

In a nutshell you can think of this drill pretty much like chi sau, except I can use whatever technique or punch that I want, any control that I want, etc. Same attributes are drilled, but the variety of techniques used is increased. The other thing that goes against wing chun maxim is the straight line theory goes out the door, and replaced with "using whatever technique that is drawn out for that given moment."

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Have any of you all tried anything like this? Think this is a good idea? Bad? If so why?" (Van)

Yes.

Sometimes during chi sao I might quickly convert from striking/trapping/unbalancing into an outright grab and takedown...or a grab and arm lock and takedown, and so on.

We also sometimes use kicking during chi sao. (And counters to the kicks that require a complete disengagament of the hands and a sidestep and gum sao).

All of these things that you and I have described contribute to overall fighting skills and development PRECISELY BECAUSE the freedom of movement comes closer to the unpredictability and spontaneity of reality fighting.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Vankuen
Have any of you all tried anything like this? Think this is a good idea? Bad? If so why?
It's better than simply doing chi sao, but it's still not enough to show all the stuff that really doesn't work. Unless you are also really doing this type of drill in a hard contact type of situation, you will still come away with the mistaken notion of the effectiveness of many of the technques (such as all those slappy backhands and neck hits you see when people are doing chi sao).

[SAAMAG]

I know what you're saying KF, and I don't like the slappy hits either. If I hit you in the neck...you will know it. I used to punch people in the side of the neck instead of the jawline (seeing as how most people open it up anyway when they tilt their head away from the punch), but I think it's the chops that you're talking about most likely. There is one chop that I have used, with success in real world application...it's a chop to the neck, attacking the pit between the side muscle and trachea...target is the vegas nerve. But the "chop" is actually more of a linear strike with it's energy directed towards the spine. Not flicky by any means.

On the other comment, I always try to go as hard with the hits as safely possible given the circumstances. If we have gear, or the participants just don't care, we go pretty hard. If not...then we don't.

This drill encompasses everything from wing chun to all the "boxing" punches, to muay thai techniques (to include knees and elbows and clinches)....we do kicks as well...but most of the if one kicks too much they're typically taken off balance and taken down or something to that effect.

Anyway....it's still just a drill....and can progress to pretty close to a fight...but it depends on the skill levels present.

[anerlich]

It sounds like a reasonable sort of drill. My first instructor (1977), who had a fair bit of William Cheung WC from before TWC was made public, worked with me on it a couple of times, mainly for variety.

In his opinion, it wasn't a drill you wanted to do too much because you ended up chasing hands and being too defensive, instead of interception and then immediately moving in to shut the other guy down. Might be good to get certain students to "free up" or flow a bit more.

As Hock Hochheim said on one of his tapes, we want to become fighting experts, not drill experts.

[t_niehoff]

A couple of thoughts . . .

KF wrote: It's better than simply doing chi sao, but it's still not enough to show all the stuff that really doesn't work.

**In my view, one of the problems with chi sao -- and there are many -- is that it is often assumed, incorrectly, that how we do the drill is how we will genuinely apply WCK, that we are doing the same things in chi sao as we will in a fight. Or that fighting is the same as chi sao only just "kicked up" a notch. It doesn't work that way. And, you don't -- and shouldn't -- have to take my word for it: see for yourself.

**To go back to my old swimming metaphor, chi sao is like getting in the pool with a life-jacket (flotation device) on. It allows you to concentrate your practice on some aspects of swimming by removing other aspects (like staying afloat). But when you remove the jacket and get in the water (put those other aspects back into the mix), things will change because now all those things you have been practicing must take other aspects into account, and that will require that you alter or modify how you were doing them with the jacket on. You can't speculate or infer how to alter or modify them to genuinely swim (that's the theoretician POV); the only way is to leave the jacket at the side of the pool and venture in, see for yourself.

Vankuen,

Your drill is great -- if it works for you. IMO once someone recognizes specifically what it is *they need* to develop, it is relatively simple to come up with a drill or a way to do some drill they already have, to develop that aspect. Determining *the specific need* is the most important part. How can we tell what it is we need? If all we do is chi sao ("swim" with the life jacket on), then all we can see is what it is we need (are lacking) to be "good" at chi sao (to move about in the pool with the life jacket on). But that's not necessarily what we need to become good swimmers.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Vankuen
I used to punch people in the side of the neck instead of the jawline (seeing as how most people open it up anyway when they tilt their head away from the punch), "Most people" don't tilt their head away from a punch. If the people you are fighting against are doing that, there are some serious problems with their basics.

[Airdrawndagger]

**In my view, one of the problems with chi sao -- and there are many -- is that it is often assumed, incorrectly, that how we do the drill is how we will genuinely apply WCK, that we are doing the same things in chi sao as we will in a fight. Or that fighting is the same as chi sao only just "kicked up" a notch. It doesn't work that way. And, you don't -- and shouldn't -- have to take my word for it: see for yourself.

*** How can chi sao be wrong or have problems? The only thing wrong with chi sao drill are the people doing it. Chi Sao is only an execise and is limited only to your imagination. If you want to be unconventional and apply different variations then that is up to you and your partner as long as you stay with in the parameters of the original intent of the exercise. You cant say "well if im chi sao'in then you can grab me, or you can pull out a knife and stab me"
There are illegal moves or moves that you shouldn't do during traditional chi sao like the basic knife hand chop to the throat. This move should only be practiced at long-arm chi sao range or sparring. Why? Because chopping the neck is not the goal, the goal is to be fluid with the moves and learn how to bridge correctly in any situation. In fact, you should only strike the chest when you are going to strike in chi sao. Reason: If you can strike the chest then you should be able to strike the face/neck because you have bridged correctly and created the gap to strike.
If you go out side of the original intent of the execise then you are the one who is wrong, not the execise and what you are doing is not chi-sao.
Of course, this is how i was taught and linages are different as well as teachers....

[t_niehoff]

ADD wrote:

*** How can chi sao be wrong or have problems? The only thing wrong with chi sao drill are the people doing it.

There are inherent limitations in the drill, as there will be in any drill. So while you train certain aspects, you actually train poor habits with regard to others. As I said in another thread, it is like "swimming" with a life jacket on. It's great as that allows you to focus on somethings, but it also causes us to ignore others (and sometimes forget about them).

***Chi Sao is only an execise and is limited only to your imagination. If you want to be unconventional and apply different variations then that is up to you and your partner as long as you stay with in the parameters of the original intent of the exercise. You cant say "well if im chi sao'in then you can grab me, or you can pull out a knife and stab me"
There are illegal moves or moves that you shouldn't do during traditional chi sao like the basic knife hand chop to the throat. This move should only be practiced at long-arm chi sao range or sparring. Why? Because chopping the neck is not the goal, the goal is to be fluid with the moves and learn how to bridge correctly in any situation. In fact, you should only strike the chest when you are going to strike in chi sao. Reason: If you can strike the chest then you should be able to strike the face/neck because you have bridged correctly and created the gap to strike.
If you go out side of the original intent of the execise then you are the one who is wrong, not the execise and what you are doing is not chi-sao.
Of course, this is how i was taught and linages are different as well as teachers....

There is no "perfect" drill. Those imperfections leave us vulnerable. Similarly, there are weakness or bad points associated with linked sets. Everything has its advantages and disadvantages. We need to recognize both.

[Airdrawndagger]

Yeah I see what you are saying but i dont look at it that way,
Chi sao is only one of many ways to train. You cant expect to get huge only doing curls with dumbells!
ALOT of people like to use chi sao as an end all way of training so if this is the case then your point would then be VERY valid.

I know people who like to chi-sao fight or spar and i just laugh because theyve missed the point of the exercise. They are setting themselves up for failure because chi sao doesnt address long range combat or real life fighting.
If this is your point then I agree with you... Chi sao would then be imperfect.