Knifefighter et al: sceptics' discussion thread.

[Mr Punch]

David Ross
Earlier in this thread, I mentioned "Iron Head" and how he told us he'd beaten all the coaches in "sparring" except for Chan Tai san, that was because to him "sparring" was light almost point sparring and you didn't play with Chan Tai San unless you wanted to get hurt...

Sifu Chan was always ready with a story about how HE got beat up. He told us the story about Jyu Chyuhn beating him, Mok Ching Gui beating him, Cheung Lai Chung beating him, etc... funny thing was, he seldom talked about his victories... we would sometimes get a glimmer from him, but many times we'd get stories from others. This is one we got that is definitely not PC and has freaked quite a lot out...

A frienf of Sifu Chan's told us this story one afternoon while Sifu Chan was preoccupied with something. I guess it is not on Sifu's top 10 stories to get out, you'll see why later. It was later told to me almost identically by another teacher in SF who knew Sifu Chan...

Sifu Chan first joined the military at 17 in 1937. He fought in both World War II and the Chinese civil war. In the communist, post war era, he remained in the military and in the 1960's, already in his 40's, Sifu Chan Tai San was an all military sparring champion.

Sifu Chan did tell us about the sparring championships inside the military. Very little rules, very small gloves, like MMA gloves. We all knew he was a champion and considered a very good fighter inside the military.

The rest is the story Sifu Chan did not tell us, but we heard from his two friends...

In the 1970's, Sifu Chan was in his 50's. I guess compared to a guy in his 20's, Sifu Chan was considered an "old man", but to Sifu Chan, he was still the best fighter in the army and no one was going to say otherwise...

One day, Sifu Chan overheard two guys talking about a young army officer. They were talking about him, praising his skill, one suggested he might be better than Chan Tai San. Try to remember that the actual guy in question was not bragging, this was two guys sitting at a table eating rice talking a little too loud for their own good.

Having overheard the claim that this young officer was "better" than Chan Tai San, Sifu Chan approached these two guys and told them to set up a match between him and this young guy.

I also said earlier in this thread, Sifu Chan had skills I will NEVER have. He had hardened his hands, his claws dug into vital points, his chops were heavier than any blows I'd ever felt (or felt since). He knew things about fighting I will never know. It is that simple.

As I tell you what he did, don't ask me how he did it, I don't know. Dont' ask me "could I do it"? I couldn't. But I have no reason not to believe the story. It was told to me by two separate guys, guys who didn't know eachother, guys who both had brought it up without me asking, just in passing. And it fit right in with what "Iron Head" said about NO ONE going anywhere near Chan Tai San

The match was set up. I don't know if the younger guy had any idea what had been said or why Sifu Chan wanted to fight him. For all I know, he showed up expecting a friendly sparring match. For all I know, he may have actually like and admired Chan Tai San.

What was pretty apparent was, Sifu Chan was determined to keep his reputation...

It wasn't a long match, Sifu's friend said that the younger guy maybe landed a kick. The other teacher in SF made it sound very one side, like Sifu Chan went BOOM and it was over. Both agreed how it ended. Sifu Chan knew he'd done some sort of internal damage, and while the young guy was lying on the floor at sifu's feet, Sifu screamed at the two guys who had set up the match...

"don't ever say that anyone is better than Chan Tai San....."

The young guy died. A few years after I had heard the story again (ie in SF), I got up enough courage to ask Sifu Chan about it. Sifu Chan didn't get mad, he just matter-of-fact manner said he'd used a technique to rupture an internal organ, knowing it would likely kill the guy.

Did the guy really die? I asked?

"Yes, he died" Sifu Chan said....

[Mr Punch]

The idea of rupturing an internal organ does strike me as "esoteric" and I don't buy a lot of the "chi" gimmicks, or "dim mak" as in "death touch"

My father is a medical doctor, my mother was an ER nurse. There's science and perfectly logical explanations for stuff like this. The kidneys can rupture, so can the spleen. Bone fragments can tear through soft tissue. Certain muscular contractions can actually prevent the lungs from expanding, preventing you from beathing...

Sifu Chan was a doctor, capable of bone setting, accupressure and accupuncture, but he was also rather matter-of-fact regarding the fighting applications of such knowledge. When asked about "Dim Mak" he replied he indeed knew it, but his explanation would probably shock a lot....

Strictly speaking, "Dim Mak" only means to "point the pulse" or "touch the pulse"

Dim Yeut, another term used for this sort of thing, means "point the cavity" or "touch the cavity", "Yuet" being certain points on the body...

Sifu Chan's "Dim Mak" was nothing more (and nothing less) than very concentrated strikes to logical areas. the strike were also contoured, using formations of the hands that best fit the area and best transfered the force.

I've been on the receiving end of two of them. I was hit under the arm pit, where a pile of nerves sit, with the fingers. The resulting trama kept me from raising my arm for a day or so.

I was hit in the solar plexus, causing a muscular contraction that prevented me from inhaling, had sifu not messaged and straightened me out, it certainly felt like I was going to die, probably I would have collapsed first, then started breathing... but it would not have been fun...

[Mr Punch]

He hears TWO OTHER GUYS stating that they thought a third guy was better than him. He then has them set up a fight with this third guy who THEY think might be better than him. He then uses a "deadly tecchnique" to intentionally kill the guy, who was pretty much just minding his own business.

Cough...bull...cough...****...cough.

[Mr Punch]

Just out of curiosity, do you think this is bull**** because of the "deadly technique" aspect, or just because you don't think somone would be so much of a reputation-obsessed wack job as to cripple or kill someone who was said to be better than them?

[Mr Punch]

Both.

[Mr Punch]

Hate to disappoint you, but the world still revolves whether you believe it does or not...

[Mr Punch]

Dave et. al.,

my apologies in advance, I hope that this doesn't constitute thread contamination, but I'd like to breifly address the post by "knifefighter", specifically in context to Sifu Chan, and as a lead-in to another Sifu Chan story - so I crave your indulgence...

first, although he could at times be nice, funny, even grandfathely, I have also seen Sifu Chan totally wig out over things like suggestions that his lion dance wasn't the best, his qigong demos weren't authentic, his gung fu wasn't effective, etc.; bottom line, the man was one tough b1tch, and would spare no effort to make this known; (you know, considering how many people get into fights or even get shot here in the US for dumb reasons, like wearing the wrong colors, or looking at someone the wrong way, or hearing someone talk tash, how is it that you find this so hard to believe it could happen somewhere else?); look - the guy was, to some extent, a hood - he'd killed people; i know people who've killed other people aside from him - they're screwed in the head, and once having crossed that line, tend to see things a bit differently than those of us who haven't...

second, in regards to the "death touch" - my BS meter is set pretty high, but a lot of nasty stuff can happen when the autonomic nervous system gets stimulated violently: HR/BP falls/rises precipitously, respiration gets screwed up, and even peripheral circulation, digestion, elimination and various other systems can go to hell over a delayed period of time; based on my experience as a PT doing osteopathic manual therapy, including adjustment, organ manips etc., and also on the experiences of my wife, a surgeon / ER doc, osteopath and former sambo player from the USSR (yes, we've had some fun converstions), we've both seen negative effects w/the ANS that seem hard to believe, but do occur - even during treatment, messed up people can have rapid changes in state when the organism is trying to re-balance itself; so it's reasonable that strikes to an autonomic ganglia can create all sorts of havoc; sooo, in regards to this and Sifu Chan: 1) I have been grabbed by a lot of people; unequivocably, Sifu's fingers were the hardest, most piercing set of claw-like apendages that i've ever felt - it was like hot iron nails - it almost felt like electric shocks at times; I can't imagine what it would feel like for him to grab you hard or hit you w/them: part of his training was to push nails into the wall (he showed us this once - sick); so, popping someone in the axillary or clavicular neurovascular bundles (two of his favorite areas to target) w/fingers like that - yeowch!! 2) the way he showed applications, in retrospect, since I didn't have the medical knwledge at the time, it was a logical and systematic progression of attacks to areas that were rife with the above mentioned neural structures - even though he wasn't showing dim yeut per se, the applications were almost all geared towards areas that would create both local and hopefully (?) systemic reactions...nasty

so, in summary, Sifu Chan had the temperment, the knowledge and the ability to totally do what he claimed; even though I never heard that story until now, i have not doubt that it could have occurred the way it was told - but one had to know him to be sure of that; so for those that didn't, I'd reserve judgement about him in that regard; ok - the matter is closed.

anyway, that segues into the story I wanted to tell: as Dave pointed out, Sifu was also a doctor, and for 2 years in Mineola I assisted him w/treatment of all students and other people who would come into the school for treatment (ah, those days of doing 500 tuina strokes in both directions to some 280 pound guys lumbar spine); so one day, the school's resident brawler-guy gets his knee all twisted up and it quickly takes on the reseamblance to a water balloon; so, we bring him to the back room ("the clinic"), and Sifu proceeds to quickly turn his knee into a pin cushion; now, i'd read about the phenomenon called "needle shock" by then, which is that some people just can't see themselves w/needles sticking out of their boy w/out passing out; so, when I see Mr. tough-guy start to turn an interesting shade of green looking at his knee, I was like "dude, DON'T look at the needle!"; too late - and down he goes, sliding off the couch onto the floor; Sifu, his back turned momentarilly to deal with something/someone else, turns around to see his patient on the floor looking mighty distraught, and 2 or 3 of us around him looking mighty helpless; without a word, he pushes us aside, and grabs a bottle of Tiger Balm (?); he then proceeds to dig a glob of it out with his finger (??); with his other hand, he grabs the guy by the jaw, and prys open his mouth (?!?!); he then SHOVES THE GLOB OF TIGER BALM INTO THE GUY'S MOUTH ( !!!!)

I've never seen anyone get up that fast; afterwards (after the gagging, that is), the guy said he didn't even know what he was tasting until we told him; actually, it makes sense- Tiger Balm is camphor, menthol and eucalyptis - all things that can snap you out of the greenies mighty quick, and nothing that'll kill you in the long run - but at the time, I freaked - I was like "Sifu, you can't do that!" and he was like "what're you talking about? it's fine!"; well, he obviously was right...although I can't say I'd try that in my clinic...

so, if anyone still has any doubts about Sifu Chan's propensity for radical behavior, well, I've made my contribution...

[Mr Punch]

There you go gentlemen :)

A lot of people are really enjoying the Chan Tai San thread. Quite apart from any possible disrespect to Ross's dead sifu, quite apart from whether you believe it or not (no-one has proof), it's kind of like shouting out 'That's crap!' in the middle of a movie everyone's enjoying at the theatre.

Cept Ross lived this movie, and he doesn't have a rep for BS or gullibility in many people's eyes.

Take it away.

[cerebus]

Good on ya' Mat! ;)

[Vash]

I call bull**** . . .

just not on the Chan Tai San stories.

[Becca]

... But you are never going to get those worthless eyots to leave that thread alone. It smacks of respectability and this onw smacks of, well, smack. There is no fun in flaming here, they ain't gonna enrages us for messing up this thread.

[red5angel]

here's the way I see it - It's another kungfu story. The irony is this one is supposed to be true while all the others are not. The same people telling, and buying into this story, claim that many of the other so called examples of skill by other instructors are bullsh!t. Anyone else here seeing the irony?
I'm not saying it did, or didn't happen, I'm saying it sounds exactly like a dozen other kungfu stories that get a rise out of guys liek the ones telling, and believing this story.


As for dim mak and whatever. This chi crap has got to stop. Until it does, kungfu is a goner. If you study physics, and medicine enough (hint: it won't take a doctorate in either) then you will see that killing someone by hitting them is entirely possible without the "force", light side or darkside ;)

[Mr Punch]

Yeah, I think most people can catch the irony. It's not that complicated.

But like I said, even if you don't agree, you can always come over here, leave Ross to his respect, and not be a killjoy for the many people who believe or who are willing to suspend their disbelief. This isn't Bullshido.

Personally, although I generally agree with the case for needing proof, I'm not with the 'you have to show me a video before I believe you exist' brigade either, and Ross has not mentioned chi, he has stated that somebody struck hard in a dangerous place died. To me that's not much more unbelievable than you existing.

Different times, different places, different beliefs.

Some people die in boxing. And most people in China in those days would not have been as conditioned as boxers or MMAers either, so why is it unbelievable? Add to that, not wearing gloves makes a difference. If it didn't people wouldn't need to wear gloves in MMA. And I know they are to protect the hands not the targets, but the fact is they make the hands bigger and less accurate.

And as for your science, you've just had testimonies (albeit secondhand) from Chris Jurak and Ross about medical possibilities. And those people were qualified.

Personally, I don't give a monkeys about whether these stories are true or not, but so far I'm enjoying them, and I think people should get some respect and stay off Ross's thread. And so far, we've had a few good points as to why they could be true, and nothing about why they can't.

[Newb]

Originally posted by Mat
He hears TWO OTHER GUYS stating that they thought a third guy was better than him. He then has them set up a fight with this third guy who THEY think might be better than him. He then uses a "deadly tecchnique" to intentionally kill the guy, who was pretty much just minding his own business.

Cough...bull...cough...****...cough.


Why would you say it's BS? I don't know if it is true or not, but it is plausable.

[Mr Punch]

Please note that's a quote from Knifefighter, not me! :D

[Reggie1]

I once knocked out a bee that was buzzing around me with a single punch. Could I ever do it again? I doubt it. However, imagine the stories that would evolve if I were a Chinese "master" and I had done that in front of a bunch of impressionable students.

You don't think you could do that again? Knocking a bee out with a punch really isn't that hard. I've probably seen that at least 10-20 times and done it more than once. Either you don't get out much or have slow hands.

[Newb]

Originally posted by Reggie1
You don't think you could do that again? Knocking a bee out with a punch really isn't that hard. I've probably seen that at least 10-20 times and done it more than once. Either you don't get out much or have slow hands.

I personally got training from this old car dealer by catching flys with chopsticks.


http://www.fast-rewind.com/kkid/miyagi.jpg

[Pork Chop]

Knifefighter needs to read Bob Mee's Bareknuckle boxing book if he doesn't believe that certain body shots cause death more frequently than freak accidents.

According to knifefighter a heart punch doesn't exist, eventhough bareknuckle boxers who frequently fought matches that were reported by the newspapers of the time (ie the closest thing you're going to have to a video camera) agreed that they did.

I guess CPR doesn't work either, coz there's no way blunt force trauma could have any affect on an internal organ.

All that being said; my biggest beef with knifefighter is that he just won't leave that thread alone. After repeated requests, he's ****ing on a gravestone.

Never had issue with the guy before, just thought he was mighty quick to be awfully judgemental & close minded; but he's definitely dropped a few notches in my mind after that mess.

[red5angel]

mat - agreed on all your points, why I posted here and not there. however, I find the whole situation more then a little ironic if you ask me. If anyone else were to start a thread like that they'd be heckled out of the forum in no time flat. They certainly wouldn't have several people pushing flame wars to other threads out of respect.

I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'

[norther practitioner]

I guess CPR doesn't work either,

******, I was saving that one....


:D

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by red5angel
mat - agreed on all your points, why I posted here and not there. however, I find the whole situation more then a little ironic if you ask me. If anyone else were to start a thread like that they'd be heckled out of the forum in no time flat. They certainly wouldn't have several people pushing flame wars to other threads out of respect.

I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'

1. chan tai san just recently died. He has several people who can account for some of the things he may have been able to do. Not everyone here boasts about someone who has that to their credit. Masters who have been dead 50 years or more, etc.

2. he just just recently died. that thread may be serving as some type of outlet for ross, who is/was grieving over his sifu.

3. he trained ross, who has trained several champions and has one of the better gyms in the country. That in itself would make it easier to believe that chan tai san was really that good.

these are just my opinions from the outside looking in though - I haven't read that thread...

[red5angel]

1. - several people who can easily verify.....is just as easy to fake as someone who has been long dead. I just read a signed affidavit testimonial from a guy claming his kungfumaster can lift soda cans with touching them. That guy is still alive.

2. - Sure, but the irony still remains.

3. - I'm not saying Chan Tai San didn't know how to fight, I"m not even saying he didn't do what Ross says he has. I'm just pointing out how ironic I think it is that people will swallow most of this with no question, then flip to another thread and make fun of someone who claims similar skills.

[Mutant]

Originally posted by knifefighter
I once knocked out a bee that was buzzing around me with a single punch. Could I ever do it again? I doubt it. However, imagine the stories that would evolve if I were a Chinese "master" and I had done that in front of a bunch of impressionable students.
you've got to be kidding, right? :confused:
wow dude you really are a bad ass...:eek:

[red5angel]

I totally crescent kicked this bumble bee and knocked it flat out!

[Mr Punch]

Seven, don't you have the power to hoik Knifefighter's criticisms from that thread onto this one, and delete them from there?

And sure Red, you're on the ball again. But this guy lived until like a couple of months ago. So it's even more ironic that there may be some proof of some of these things existing beyond people's stories, but:

1) who's gonna go and find it? Do you think anyone can go and ask the Chinese army (which since then has been through several reforms no doubt, possibly including erasing/altering records)?

2) It ain't gonna be video proof. It may be a death record, which may well have been altered, or it may have just recorded 'accidental death' or something as it wasn't a combat death.

So again, you've got the video-heads saying there's no record, and how could there be one?

So again it's back to the science argument.

And nobody's talking chi here, they're talking massive trauma to an organ. And nobody's talking about studying charts for the time of day, they're talking about something nowhere near as difficult as punching a bee out of the air (especially if the opponent thinks you're having a non-lethal sparring match and is just getting warmed up with an opening kick or two). And as Reggie says, you train for punching a bee out the air, you can punch a bee out the air.

Now where's that d@mn ninja fraud thread?! :D

[Mr Punch]

Oh yeah, and I love Knifefighter's no-nonsense approach on the WC forum: I agree with a lot of what he says. But I do think he's being a ***** staying on Ross's thread.

[Mr Punch]

Hi. :)

Whoever just locked that thread with the woofie-hunt on, can you do a lot of us a favour and clear those grave-****ing posts from the Chan Tai San thread onto this one please? Cheers.

[yutyeesam]

Originally posted by Mat
Hi. :)

Whoever just locked that thread with the woofie-hunt on, can you do a lot of us a favour and clear those grave-****ing posts from the Chan Tai San thread onto this one please? Cheers.

I second that.

I think we have a motion in the room...

[Becca]

Originally posted by red5angel
mat - agreed on all your points, why I posted here and not there. however, I find the whole situation more then a little ironic if you ask me. If anyone else were to start a thread like that they'd be heckled out of the forum in no time flat. They certainly wouldn't have several people pushing flame wars to other threads out of respect.

I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'
Who cares if it's ironic. It's a facinating read and a very engrossing look into a 10,000 year-old culture that is dieing away at an alarming rate. And what is wrong with respecting the heck out of Coach Ross's teacher? He was an incredible man. You ever here of Chesty Puller? CTS sounds alot like a Chinese version, minus that whole general bit.

Knifefighter- Shush up and enjoy the storys or just stop reading them. Or keep you comments to this thread. Please.;) :D

[cerebus]

The funny thing is that some people are reading things into Sifu Ross' post that he didn't say, or even hint at. Like "chi blasts".

In boxing, people have died from ruptured spleens. I've seen a video of Russian Spetznaz recruits being hazed where one guy took a spinning back kick to the abdomen. He died from a ruptured liver. I saw a guy in high school with no skill or training at all say before a fight that he was going to punch his opponent in the throat & kill him. He went out there and he DID punch the guy in the throat, and made a serious effort to kill him before we dragged him off.

Chan Tai San had more skill and experience than probably anyone on this entire forum. If he really wanted to rupture a spleen, or damage a liver he may very well have been able to do just that.

No "death point" strikes or "chi blasts". Just knowing what to do, how to do it and having the skill and power to pull it off.

[Becca]

Never mind the fact that he was an experienced physician with very advanced understanding of how pressure points affect the verious internal organs.

That one mentioned about Chan Tai San hitting one student and stunning his solor plexus for several seconds? That is not even an uncommon one; the first time I experiened that one was at the hands of one of my friends when I was very young... got hit in the stomach with a tether ball. I've had it done very deliberatly in sparring, usually with an elbow aimed a bit off the belly button. I have heard this technique discussed many, many times on this forum by non-Chi Gong peeps. Why is it so unbelieveable comming out of the mouths of a world-class coach and a trained physician (the other guy, who had CTS do this to him)?:confused:

[cerebus]

Well, I think it's difficult for many people to believe because it's an incredibly difficult thing to do. I've boxed and I've fought full-contact matches in both Kung Fu and Karate. The human body is amazingly tough and resilient. And opponents aren't usually very good about letting you get a clean shot in on them.

Hitting something like the solar plexus is pretty easy, also striking various other areas like the brachial nerve plexus, the common peronial nerve, etc. Not very difficult to do effectively. But to actually rupture an internal organ and cause death? Especially against a trained opponent. This is VERY difficult. I don't think any of us have the ability to do this, except perhaps by accident of hitting hard enough, cleanly enough at just the right moment (when the opponent can't defend against it) as well as using the proper angle to do that kind of damage to whichever organ is being targeted (so the force isn't absorbed by muscle, bones, other organs, etc.).

If anyone could do it, I believe it would be master Chan or one of those who had a similar level of training and experience. I don't think that includes any of us. ;)

[Becca]

Originally posted by cerebus
If anyone could do it, I believe it would be master Chan or one of those who had a similar level of training and experience. I don't think that includes any of us. ;)
Nicely put!:)

[red5angel]

Originally posted by Becca
Who cares if it's ironic. It's a facinating read and a very engrossing look into a 10,000 year-old culture that is dieing away at an alarming rate. And what is wrong with respecting the heck out of Coach Ross's teacher? He was an incredible man. You ever here of Chesty Puller? CTS sounds alot like a Chinese version, minus that whole general bit.

Knifefighter- Shush up and enjoy the storys or just stop reading them. Or keep you comments to this thread. Please.;) :D


Have I ever heard of chesty puller?! 4 Years as a marine here!!!!


As for who cares, or 10 thousand year old culture, I didn't realize Chan Tai San was that old. I was under the impression he was like the rest of us mortals and grew up over the last century?
I never said there was anything wron with respecting him. I'm just pointing out the irony in the entire process. Coach Ross, a respected person on this forum because he teaches fighters, tells a story about his instructor killing a guy with one punch, and no one bats an eye. All he get's is oooohs and aaaahhhss. If ANYONE else were to start telling these stories then much like ashlee simpson, they would get booed off the stage for telling kungfu myths as real life.

I'm trying to underline a common issue in the martial arts, and especially on this forum. As long as you don't make a lot of huge and bizarre claims, or have a credible background then you can tell any story you want and it's ok? I understand Chan Tai San JUST passed away but how does that make his stories, told by other people, any more credible then some of the stories that get laughed off of this board? I've heard several very similar stories from sources almost or as close as Ross was to Chan Tai San, and seen them ridiculed.
I'm not disrespecting Ross or his Teacher, obviously Ross knows what he is doing, and we can assume that Ross learned alot of what he knows from Chan Tai San, but - and correct me if I'm wrong - but Ross isn't even teaching his fighters what Chan Tai San taught him?


also, just to reiterate - I'm not saying you can't knockout, stun or kill someone in one shot. It happens, it can be explained medically, and scientifically without the need for chi bullsh!t. I'm also not sayin Chan didn't do any of these things. I'm not arguing whether Ross is telling a lie or not.

[Starchaser107]

yeah red , thats just the way the world works though, I don't find that any way ironic.

If no one here ever heard of David Ross or Chan Tai San before all of this and he made those claims, perhaps the subject would be viewed with alot more scepticism. The fact that these are two well known figures and that they both have solid reputations makes it less likely for the subject to be taken as dubious.

LKFMDC isn't even saying anything bizarre and out there. It might be a bit unpallatable for some, but so far he hasn't made any claims SO obnoxious that we should assume that he is lying or creating/asserting a myth.

Just buy a copy of Incredible feats of Qigong from MAM

[Mutant]

I don't think it was mentioned that cts killed the guy with 'one shot', let alone with a chi blast or any such nonsense. in fact it was stated that there were few details of the fight, but there was consensus on the result.

[Mr Punch]

ttt for Seven.

Any chance of cleaning out Ross's thread onto here?

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by MutantWarrior
I don't think it was mentioned that cts killed the guy with 'one shot', let alone with a chi blast or any such nonsense. in fact it was stated that there were few details of the fight, but there was consensus on the result. It didn't say one shot. It didn't mention chi. Aaaannnnddd you are correct about your second statement too.

The chi blast and one punch are Red's extrapolations. His straw men. He can't seem to help himself! :p

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by red5angel
1. - several people who can easily verify.....is just as easy to fake as someone who has been long dead. I just read a signed affidavit testimonial from a guy claming his kungfumaster can lift soda cans with touching them. That guy is still alive.

heh, I can do that, and I'm no master. :p

2. - Sure, but the irony still remains.

I don't disagree.

3. - I'm not saying Chan Tai San didn't know how to fight, I"m not even saying he didn't do what Ross says he has. I'm just pointing out how ironic I think it is that people will swallow most of this with no question, then flip to another thread and make fun of someone who claims similar skills.

yeah, that's what I was talking about too. It's easier to believe as his accomplishments are known. sugar ray robinson has had 200 pro fights and has only lost 19. ninja joe has had 200 fights and only lost 17. which is more believable and why?

[Mutant]

Originally posted by SevenStar
ninja joe has had 200 fights and only lost 17.
ninja joe rules.:cool:

[Newb]

Originally posted by MutantWarrior
ninja joe rules.:cool:


THIS ninja Joe?
http://cell.ncbc.org/immanuel/pages/photo/cell/04272001/images/ninja_joe.jpg

[lkfmdc]

Originally posted by red5angel



but - and correct me if I'm wrong - but Ross isn't even teaching his fighters what Chan Tai San taught him?



you are WRONG

so consider yourself corrected......

[red5angel]

heh, I can do that, and I'm no master.

sure you are sevie, atleast the master of your domain :D


yeah, that's what I was talking about too. It's easier to believe as his accomplishments are known. sugar ray robinson has had 200 pro fights and has only lost 19. ninja joe has had 200 fights and only lost 17. which is more believable and why?

ah but this is subtly different. See, Sugar Ray Robinson has publicly fought all of his fights. I'm not aware of ninja joe, although he has to have balls of steel to walk around lookig like that and claiming the things he does. My assumption (pay attention here newb) is that he claims all these fights but has no real evidence to back it up?

Some of Chan Tai San's stuff can probably be confirmed pretty easily, in fact some of the stuff Ross tells us happened in front of people who still live today, but really, how much more valid is this? Can we do the research and uncover, from a legitimate source other then word of mouht, that he did indeed kill some dude in a challenge match while in the military? Essentially, the majority of Chans' experiences are still hearsay, whether they are true or not.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Mat
Seven, don't you have the power to hoik Knifefighter's criticisms from that thread onto this one, and delete them from there?


no, not unless I manually copy them over, then delete the comments from the other thread. I can combine two entire threads together, but not pieces of them.

[Shaolinlueb]

he also said the young guy died. he never said it was right away for hours alter or something. im sure most of you people think he hit him, and boom he was dead. if he shattered somehting or soemthing ruptered something, he wouldnt be dead right away. im sure CTS could do something like that. for those that dont think 50 year olds cant be fast and powerful in their kung fu have never seen a good martial artist or experienced one. and 99% of thsoe martial artist's do come form asia, because its a lifestyle over there. do i beluieve CTS is as good as they say, yes. why cause my sigong is a tough old man like CTS was. Is he as tough as CTS i dont know, maybe I haven't met him and I only hear stories from my sihing and sifu. Probably not though, it sounds like CTS has a lot more experience in things that my sigong doesnt. thats all i am saying on this.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by red5angel
Some of Chan Tai San's stuff can probably be confirmed pretty easily, in fact some of the stuff Ross tells us happened in front of people who still live today, but really, how much more valid is this? Can we do the research and uncover, from a legitimate source other then word of mouht, that he did indeed kill some dude in a challenge match while in the military? Essentially, the majority of Chans' experiences are still hearsay, whether they are true or not.

Once again, I don't disagree. But you're overlooking the fact that we're talking about human nature here. people aren't going to try to look into the history of someone they find to be reputable. I can verify the claim that chang tung sheng (another CTS) was undefeated in all of his matches. However, I have seen the quality of the students he's produced and their students as well, so I don't care to question it either way.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Newb
THIS ninja Joe?
http://cell.ncbc.org/immanuel/pages/photo/cell/04272001/images/ninja_joe.jpg

That's the guy!!!

Man, ninjas are totally sweet.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by red5angel
and correct me if I'm wrong - but Ross isn't even teaching his fighters what Chan Tai San taught him?

He's stated several times that CTS was an advocate of san shou. he's also stated that the principles of what he teaches came from what he learned from cts.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by red5angel
Coach Ross, a respected person on this forum because he teaches fighters, tells a story about his instructor killing a guy with one punch, and no one bats an eye.

He never said one punch.


As long as you don't make a lot of huge and bizarre claims, or have a credible background then you can tell any story you want and it's ok?

It's the "credible background" part that is essential, here. See, if Random Non-Trained Drunk Dude says he just knocked out a guy with one kick to the head, and SevenStar says he just knocked out a guy with one kick to the head, in neither case do we know that the person involved is telling the truth. But the things we /do/ know as facts about SevenStar (he has trained muay thai for years, he is hy00ge, he has good kicks, he has been involved in physical altercations before) make it reasonable that he might have just knocked someone out with one kick to the head, whereas nothing we know about RNTDD makes that reasonable to expect.

While we don't /know/ that it is true that CTS killed a guy in a challenge match, the things we /do/ know about CTS (and, for that matter, Coach Ross) make it reasonable to expect that that story is probably true. The fact that we give accept Ross' secondhand account while sneering at that of, say, backbreaker isn't ironic; it's completely normal, because Ross has established the facts that cause his secondhand account to have credibility.

[red5angel]

He's stated several times that CTS was an advocate of san shou. he's also stated that the principles of what he teaches came from what he learned from cts.

principles is one thing.....




He never said one punch.

correct, I was going to put "...or something" in there but got lazy.


because Ross has established the facts that cause his secondhand account to have credibility.

I'm not sure I completely agree with that. ross, hasn't done anything that anyone else hasn't done. He's told us some stories. That's it. He has pointed out that there are some stories in chinese newspapers or other periodicals, but there are lots of stories about kungfu masters in chinese periodicals. I remember reading a pretty thorough article on a particular chinese master that was made fun of pretty extensivley on this forum not too long ago.

Some of the stories of the guys in the past are removed a few times maybe but they are still verbal stories confirmed only by those who either witnessed or talked to someone who witnessed tthese things.

[Vash]

*coughasshatterycough*

[red5angel]

*coughasshatterycough*

actually asshat, I'm having a discussion. It's an interesting bit of human nature is all.

[Taomonkey]

I didnt read the whole thread so I dont know if this has been said already. Regardless of your beliefs the younger guy was murdered.

A master knows the results of his techniques, whether it was chi or not, it was a leathal technique, and if your story is accurate, was Premeditated Murder.

[Mutant]

murder?!? whoa... now that changes everything, zikes! :eek:

no, wait a minute, it couldnt have been murder... because as red5 pointed out, cts's escapades were not adequately documented or verified, and therefore ironically fall into the mythological master catagory along with all the other so-called masters, and we all know that these feats are imaginary and therefore impossible. so it couldnt have happened. whew, this acquits cts of any wrong-doing. for a minute there...

[lkfmdc]

some one get "Tao Monkey" a cold cloth and some smelling salts, I think he's feeling faint....

People really don't understand what San Da is about, how it transfers from traditional, but really, in all seriousness, get teh DVD we just made, you'll see quite clearly how what I do now is directly linked to what Chan Tai San taught me....

[FngSaiYuk]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
some one get "Tao Monkey" a cold cloth and some smelling salts, I think he's feeling faint....
Or tiger balm...

[Newb]

Originally posted by FngSaiYuk
Or tiger balm...


I wouldn't volunteer to put my fingers down his throat. He might be trained in bite-U.

[red5angel]

People really don't understand what San Da is about, how it transfers from traditional, but really, in all seriousness, get teh DVD we just made, you'll see quite clearly how what I do now is directly linked to what Chan Tai San taught me....

That's true I don't, I'm not real familiar with it. How much of what you learned from Chan Tai San do you think you are applying to your Sanda training?

[Becca]

Originally posted by red5angel
Have I ever heard of chesty puller?! 4 Years as a marine here!!!!
Chesty Puller was just another person, too, but because of word-of-mouth stories similar to the one's Coach Ross is telling he is affectionately referred to as "the Grand Old Man of the Marine Corps." This is my point.


As for who cares, or 10 thousand year old culture, I didn't realize Chan Tai San was that old.
Since when is one person a whole culture? But to better understand a culture, you need to look at several individuals from that culture. And several from every aspect and era of it.
I was under the impression he was like the rest of us mortals and grew up over the last century?
I never said there was anything wron with respecting him. I'm just pointing out the irony in the entire process. .... and no one bats an eye. All he get's is oooohs and aaaahhhss.

Some of us take things literally and personally. Others of use sit back and ejoy the stories for what they are. Stories.

I'm trying to underline a common issue in the martial arts, and especially on this forum. As long as you don't make a lot of huge and bizarre claims, or have a credible background then you can tell any story you want and it's ok?

Yep. This is assuming you are a competent, intelligent person and know that this is a story, not intended to get you to go out and try this at home. These happened in a different time and form many stories a different place. The simple fact that what was likely considered exceptable then is now called premeditated murder illistrates the very kind of differences I find fascinating about these stories.

[Hitman]

Dear all,
Many traditional martial arts teachers before 1960 gained fame by fighting people for real on the streets or inside their own schools. They sometimes had to fight with weapons - this meant die or injured. They did not have newspapers & televison coverage.
In the traditional martail arts schools before 1960s, every teachers who opened their own schools were expected able to use their skills in a fight.
However, some schools were run by conmans with little skills, but had conection with the gangsters. Or they collected protection business from the resturants, brothels & other business. This is a dark side of martail arts people did not want to talk about it.
When you opened up a school you were expected people to challenge you to a fight. If you lost the fight you were expected to close your school, so your students would leave you and found a better teacher. Most sifu took the fights very seriously as their income depended on them winning the fight. Some of them had part of their lambs chopped off during the fight.
Whether you believed Sifu Ross' stories about his sifu is up to you.
However, I can tell you that a very famous Hung kuen master , Lam Sai Wing before 1900 (?) and four of his students fought over 200 people inside a cinema. All four of his students were injuried in the fight, expcet him. Master Lam had to ecapse to Hong Kong that night in order to avoid the police arresting him. The owner of the cinema had connection with the government. 80 people were injuried in the fight and many had to taken to a hosiptial. The cinema owner put up a bounty on master Lam. The whole event was reported by a newspaper in China.

Hitman

[Becca]

Some of them had part of their lambs chopped off during the fight.

See, now that's just wrong. You want to fight, fine, but leave Lamb Chops alone!:mad: ;)

[Hitman]

Sorry,
I meant: limbs & protection money.

Please note not all martial arts schools associate themselves with gangsters, only some of them do.

I did not have the time to check my spelling.

Thank
Hitman

[red5angel]

This is my point.

actually, this is sort of my point too.





Others of use sit back and ejoy the stories for what they are. Stories.

Exactly!

[Becca]

Originally posted by Hitman
Sorry,
I meant: limbs & protection money.

Please note not all martial arts schools associate themselves with gangsters, only some of them do.

I did not have the time to check my spelling.

Thank
Hitman
Na, i's cool. I misspell stuff all the time. I rarely get the first line in a typo that funny though.;) :D

[Mr Punch]

It'd be rude NOT to...
Originally posted by Hitman
Whether you believed Sifu Ross' stories about his sifu is up to you.
However, I can tell you that a very famous Hung kuen master , Lam Sai Wing before 1900 (?) and four of his students fought over 200 people inside a cinema.:rolleyes:


So tell us, did you mean before 1900 or was that another typo? And did you mean 200?

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by red5angel
actually, this is sort of my point too.Didn't know you even had one!:p

[SevenStar]

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/print.php?article=86

[Mr Punch]

Cheers Seven.

So that must be true then :rolleyes:

And people are giving Ross grief!

[Hitman]

More unbelievable stories for you to read.

There was a white male pretending to know chi kung. He arranged a news reporter to tape his demonstration and show it on the 6 o'clock news in Britain. He copied some of the demonstrations showed by the Shaolin monks. Please see the wheel of life:

1. He broken sticks with his body.
2. suppporting himself on a metal rod in the centre of a tripod using his stomach, except that he was holding on to the two metal bars next to the tripod, instead of letting go his hands. Basically he was cheating.

The audience was amazed by his performance and asked for his autographs. However, the news reporter noticed that small amout of blood was dripping from his chest. He asked the performer did he realise that he was bleeding. The performer took a look at his chest and saw the blood. He replied that it was nothing and did not want to answer any more quesition.
That performer was a fraud and did not know a thing about chi kung. He was using his muscle strength to con the public in to thinking that he was a skillful chi kung practitioner. If he knew chi kung then he would not have been bleeding in the first place!

THERE ARE MANY FRAUD AND CONMEN IN KUNG FU - It is up to you to decide whether they are real or not.

2. The late Wong Sheun Leung (wing chun) used to challenge practitioners from other styles in Hong Kong, in order to determine what he had learnt from Grandmaster Yip Man was practical or not. He fought at least 60 people.

He went to Grandmaster, Yip Man's school one day and asked to spar with some of the students there, in order to determine whether he should learnt Wing Chun or not. He defeated several of Yip Man's junior students in front of Grandmaster Yip Man. Grandmaster Yip Man was forced to fight him in oder to save his face & reputation. If Grandmaster Yip Man allowed Wong Sheun Leung to leave the class without defeating him first, (according to Chinese tradition) he would had to close down his own school. This was because his students would think he had no skills and leave him! Grandmaster Yip Man defeated Wong Sheun Leung without hitting him once. Wong Sheun Leung was so impressed with Grandmaster Yip Man's skill that he became Grandmaster Yip Man's student.
Grandmaster Yip Man taught all his students that they should not believe in everything he said, instead they should find it out for themselves whether what he taught them were useful or not. Basically to test your skills; you have to find some one who will fight you for real.

3. One famous Tai Chai teachers in Tawian in the late 50s or early 60s, thought his teacher was not very good and wanted to study under other teacher. His teacher told him to pick fights with students from other schools and see if they could defeat him. If he was defeat in the fights, then he should leave. However, if he won the fights then he should stay with him. After winning 20 fights, he was convinced that his teacher was better.


Hitman