What can you do for strength in the class?

[premier]

OK. Here's the scenario. There's no equipment what so ever. Just you and your partner with your bodyweight. How do you work on the over all body strength? Or even better, power on the kicks and punches?

I guess the idea is to maximize the muscle tension somehow. So I'm thinking plyometrics, calisthenics with your partner resisting or his body weight on your shoulders? Is there any other ways to do it?

Any ideas on specific drills or exercises?

I'm wondering about the rep range too. How many repetitions?

[Chief Fox]

I've honestly never thought of this scenario but here's my thoughts.

1. Squats with your buddy on your back or in the fireman's carry position.
2. One legged squats.
3. fireman's carry lunges
4. stance drills with your buddy standing on your legs.
5. Frog jumps
6. push ups
7. one arm push ups
8. hand stands
9. walking on your hands
10. hand stand push ups

If you're going to be doing exercises with the added weight of a friend I would probably stick with the 8 to 12 rep range.

this could lead to some interesting combinations like try to do 8 push ups with your buddy on your back and then max out on regular push ups when he gets off.

Squats with your buddy on your back and then multiple reps of regular frog jumps.

You could also do a circut type thing where you spar for a minute then do push ups for a minute, spar for a minute and then do situps, spar and then do squats.

You could break it down into a split work out or do a full body workout.

Of course all of my suggestions could be crap so take this for what it's worth.
:D

[_William_]

^ Yeah, what chief fox said. I think the buddy carries are especially useful.

Another idea:

Pick a short time interval(maybe 30 or 60 seconds) and do as many pushups as you can in that period, with your buddy sitting on your back or leaning on you. Rest and repeat.

Next training session strive to beat that record. This is key.

Hope this helps.

[Oso]

www.trainforstrength.com

[premier]

Originally posted by Oso
www.trainforstrength.com

Been there, done that.

IMO it's impossible to keep up with those programs and continue training normally. At least for your average joe. And me.. ;)

Besides, doing that many reps will only work on the endurance, not strength.

[Chief Fox]

I could see using the train for strength work out maybe once a week to supplement other training or maybe even once a month as a fitness bench mark test. But that's about it.

[norther practitioner]

Do you think it is too much?

[SevenStar]

that's the way it will be anyway, because the resistance isn't progressive, unless you are constantly gaining weight. hindu squats may be hard for you at first, but once you can do 20 or more, it just became an endurance exercise. that goes for any exercise where resistance isn't progressive.

[IronFist]

^ True.

[Serpent]

So you need a selection of friends of varying size so that you can progressively increase the overload by getting the next biggest friend to sit on you each week.

[Oso]

Serp !!!


ok, so this is a question I've been thinking about for a bit now:


Do bodyweight exercises provide enough strength training for martial artists?


I could expound upon my thoughts on this but lets start there.

My answer is: Yes.

[Chief Fox]

I think the body weight exercises can provide strength to a point. I did the trainfor strength workout for about 4 weeks and did notice strength increases in my bench press. BUT bench press has never been one of my strong points.

I also noticed that the amount of pushups I was able to do increased. On the other hand, I did so many freakin push ups on that workout that I developed tendonitis in my left rotator cuff. a problem that I'm still dealing with today.

Based on my own personal results I think that you can have strength gains from body weight exercises but not enough to reach your true potential and it is possible to over do it.

SO, I think the trainforstrength work out could be a part of a bigger workout routine to give your workouts more variety and be more well rounded.

Again, this is just my personal experience and I could be totaly full of crap.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Oso
Serp !!!


ok, so this is a question I've been thinking about for a bit now:


Do bodyweight exercises provide enough strength training for martial artists?


I could expound upon my thoughts on this but lets start there.

My answer is: Yes.

I say no. All the bodyweight exercises in the world won't give you the strength to compete with a weightlifter. If you have to manipulate an uncooperative 300lb dude on the floor and you're 140lbs and all you do are pushups and Hindu squats, you're not going to move him.

[premier]

So is adding your buddy's body weight to yours the answer?

Of course it will only help to a point, but it should be better than lifting nothing but your own body weight.

Isn't the rule of thumb that if you can do more than 15 reps it's a muscle endurance exercise? Or is it even less reps?

[Oso]

CF: good points. I'm taking your answer as a 'no', right?

IF: So, you think that a 140 pound guy can get strong enough to handle a 300 lb guy? I'm assuming you mean a fat 300 pounder and not a 300 pound weightlifter. All else being equal the 300# guy is going to beat the snot out of the 140# guy. Right?



A couple of things:

Let's not look at the far end of the curve, the sevenstars, the merrypranksters, and others here and out there that are competing at the top of their feilds.

wait, maybe we should because in competition you don't get extreme mismatches like 140/300.

While I basically agree that if you are going to train a martial art you should prepare yourself to take on any opponent, I feel that this type of workout can provide the needed strength to effectively apply any technique on the majority of opponents within 50 pounds of your weight.

[Toby]

What Iron's saying is he's interested in maximal strength. Don't take his 300/140 figures too literally. He's just saying his perspective is get as strong as possible to give yourself the best chance to handle the big guys. 100 pushups ability won't help there. Low rep heavy weight benchpress will. Right, Iron?

[Oso]

well, it was the example given.

a 140 pounder might be able to squat or DL 300# of dead weight but 300# of resisting redneck is another thing altogether.

as I said, I understand and agree with the desire and need to prepare for the worst case scenario...I'm basically a 'half empty' type of person.

I guess I'm saying that in that example I don't think any amount of martial training and/or weight training is going to even those odds.

time to get out the 226.

[Oso]

also, the original question was what you can do in class.

The exercises presented at Train for Strength can easily be incorporated into class whereas weight training w/ barbells etc would be difficult to do so.

[IronFist]

Oso said:


IF: So, you think that a 140 pound guy can get strong enough to handle a 300 lb guy? I'm assuming you mean a fat 300 pounder and not a 300 pound weightlifter. All else being equal the 300# guy is going to beat the snot out of the 140# guy. Right?

I didn't say a 140lb guy would be stronger than a 300lb guy. I said a 140lb guy who only does bodyweight exercises will not be strong enough to move a 300lb guy on the ground. Regardless of how strong the 300lb guy is, he still weighs 300lbs.

It's not an exact comparison, but let's replace "300lb guy" with "300lb deadlift."

A 140lb guy who only does bw stuff most likely won't be able to deadlift 300lbs. I'm sure there's exceptions, but overall it won't happen. It's entirely possible for a 140lb guy to deadlift 300lbs, tho, although it would take some hard training cuz that's over 2x his bodyweight, but there are lighter people who have deadlifted more.

But like you said, all else being equal, a 300lb guy probably would beat a 140lb guy. Remember this is ALL ELSE BEING EQUAL so no saying "well what if blah blah blah" because there is no other difference other than weight because we said all else being equal.

Although it would be hard to come up with a situation in which a 140lb guy and 300lb guy had the same strength, endurance, etc. In fact I'd say that situation would never happen anyway.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Toby
What Iron's saying is he's interested in maximal strength. Don't take his 300/140 figures too literally. He's just saying his perspective is get as strong as possible to give yourself the best chance to handle the big guys. 100 pushups ability won't help there. Low rep heavy weight benchpress will. Right, Iron?

Yes, that too.

Of course, I don't want anyone to think I'm saying you should neglect endurance work. I'm a prime example of what happens when you do that. :)

[Oso]

IF, ok, gotcha. Let me clarify that I think a strong, fit, capable 140# dude is probably gonna whip a fat 300# guys ass if he pays attention to strategy and tactics.

In this instance, I think the correct strategy would be to out endure the fat guy by utilizing high mobility tactics to wear his cardio system down.

but anyway, running late for class...

[Mighty Mungbean]

What about static training? Bruce Lee was all about wearing himself out trying to lift the floor and push his house over. In our 8 Step Mantis classes we do a "chair" excercise for our legs where we "lean" against a wall with our legs making right angles (at hip and knee). We usually try and balance an escrima stick across our thighs to maintain form. We usually hold this for five sets of one minute or shorter number of sets with more time.

We then follow these immediately with frog squats or some other dynamic leg excercise.

[premier]

Yes. That's one way of increasing the muscle tension and train for strength. But the problem is that it will do so only for limited range of motion. Am I right?

[Toby]

Personally I think the strength thing is too hard to train in class. I think it is something that students should do themselves outside of class. It's too difficult and time consuming to train effectively in class. But if you really wanted to, I'd do a few things:

(i) Pistols.
(ii) Paired pushups where one guy leans/sits/whatever on the other's back then swap. Alternatively one-handed pushups.
(iii) Hang some ropes from the roof and get them to climb the ropes.
(iv) Jandas.
(v) Maybe some heavy sandbag work.

But again, I don't think the kwoon is the place for strength training. I think it's a good place for qigong-type exercises and general fitness like we're all familiar with.

[Becca]

Originally posted by premier
Yes. That's one way of increasing the muscle tension and train for strength. But the problem is that it will do so only for limited range of motion. Am I right?
This type of exersize is only as limited as your imagination.

I havefound that rather than doing push-ups till I injure myself, I got better results by putting my feet on progressivly higher steps. When I could get no more out of it, I stopped for a while and whent on to something else for a while. It is very hard for regular peeps to work every muscle sub group adiquatly, so rotation is the only way to go.

[SevenStar]

he's talking about range of motion, not variety of exercise. He's right - when you do static training, you will only gain strength in the static position that you are holding. Not only that, but the resistance is still not entirely progressive. I can put my hands in a prayer position and push them together. That will work my pecs and tris. However, I can only offer so much resistance... If I could forever increase it, then the pressure would eventually become too great and I would break my own hands...

same thing with mungbean's examples. pushing a house isn't progressive resistance - it's the same weight every single time. your body will get used to pushing against that weight. Once you press against it for so many minutes, it becomes an endurance exercise. That's not making you stronger anymore. If it was, then you would eventually be able to actually move the house - and that ain't gonna happen.

[Ming Yue]

with bw workouts, different people will plateau at different times. At what point in training, say, pushups, do you stop gaining strength and start increasing endurance only? It would make sense that there were overlapping curves, where strength increases lessened and endurance went up in relation to one another.

Once I can do one, then technically I can successfully move that amount of weight, so is everything from that point forward building endurance?

[Toby]

Rule of thumb is:

< 6 reps for strength.
6-20 reps for hypertrophy.
> 20 reps for endurance.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Oso
Serp !!!

ok, so this is a question I've been thinking about for a bit now:

Do bodyweight exercises provide enough strength training for martial artists?

I could expound upon my thoughts on this but lets start there.

My answer is: Yes. Oso!!!

I think the problem here with this thread now is that people are talking about two different things.

1. The strength required to effectively pursue your chosen style and fight well

2. Maximal strength - reaching your best strength potential.

If you are 140 and a 300lb dude is on top of you, then you're pretty f#@ked already. However, any grappler will tell you that a good ground game is more technique than brute strength.

Obviously, the stronger you are, the more tools you have in your toolbox, so strength training of some degree is wise.

However, most people never fully use bwe - how many hand stand pushups can you do? Can you do 6 good, full ROM HSPU's? Can you do 6 chin ups and pull ups, full ROM from a dead hang? Can you do 6 pistols, pausing at the bottom of each one?

Until you can reach these levels, then weighted exercises are not necessary. The main reason that people go straight to weights is because, on the whole, you get faster strength gain results that way. However, if you can reach the levels of bwe I mentioned above, then just add weight to that. Wear a backpack of books on your pullups, get your partner to sit on you for pushups, hold a sack of rice for pistols, etc., etc. Now you're blurring the line between weighted resistance exercises and bodyweight resistance exercises anyway. It's kinda down to your preferences and the availability of space, money, a gym, etc.

On top of all that, I have to agree with something someone else said earlier (was is Tobes?) The gwoon is not really the place for it. People come to the gwoon to learn kung fu. They can do fitness and strength training in their own time. Sure, you can always incorporate some into the classes in your gwoon, but spend too much time on it and the kung fu training suffers. Equally, as it is a kung fu class, you'll never dedicate enough time and effort to stength and fitness training anyway. Just constantly remind students how important it is for them to be fit and strong - the training should be ample reminder if they're not fit and strong enough!

Offer your students all the advice they need, invite them to see you outside of class times to discuss a workout program, etc. In class, concentrate on the fu!

These are my views anyway, and I'm always right, so listen to me. ;)

[Oso]

my question was about developing enough strength to be competant at your art...perhaps I should have added my other thoughts to my original question.


However, most people never fully use bwe - how many hand stand pushups can you do? Can you do 6 good, full ROM HSPU's? Can you do 6 chin ups and pull ups, full ROM from a dead hang? Can you do 6 pistols, pausing at the bottom of each one?

I like those numbers as goals.


I also agree that strength training doesn't belong in the regular class. I think it can be in the guan but as a separate offering.
We used to do pushups, etc in the beginning of class but I've dropped them in favor of the qigong/stretching routine developed by our shrye. I got complaints about that, Ming Yue included, but I also began offering the time on saturday mornings to come in and do strength training as a group. It's worked out well and offers another opportunity for the students to bond as a group.


btw, I was just exclaming at your reemergance.;)

[Becca]

Originally posted by SevenStar
he's talking about range of motion, not variety of exercise. He's right - when you do static training, you will only gain strength in the static position that you are holding. Not only that, but the resistance is still not entirely progressive. I can put my hands in a prayer position and push them together. That will work my pecs and tris. However, I can only offer so much resistance... If I could forever increase it, then the pressure would eventually become too great and I would break my own hands...

same thing with mungbean's examples. pushing a house isn't progressive resistance - it's the same weight every single time. your body will get used to pushing against that weight. Once you press against it for so many minutes, it becomes an endurance exercise. That's not making you stronger anymore. If it was, then you would eventually be able to actually move the house - and that ain't gonna happen.
House, no. Huge friggin brass bell, yes. This is called child skill or finger skill in the Shoulin teachings. You start as a child. Every time you pass the bell, you push on it with one, or maybe two, fingers each hand. Do this dilligantly, by the time you are an adult you can move the bell. BTW, the bell menioned is along the lines of the Liberty bell suspended by a rope. I imagine if the house was not anchered, it could be done. Maybe even with it anchered, but your landlord would likely be very much mad if you cracked the foundation.:eek: ;) :D

[SevenStar]

I dunno about that one... can heathy, strong adults who did not do this training move it? here's why I'm asking:


I have a kid. Now, let's say I take one of the 80lb dumbells home with me and tell him to pick it up - he can't budge it, as it weighs more than he does. I can have him try to pick it up every day, and his attempts may have some benefit. Now, I can get another kid who is 13, and he may be able to actually pick up the dumbell. It's not because he'd trained every day since he was a kid, but merely because he is older and stronger than the six year old. That 13 year old who could pick up the dumbell may not be able to push a truck, but I can, because I am older and stronger.

Also with that example, the bell weighs the same, no matter how old the boy is, so the resistance is still not progressive. What happens once he can push the bell?

[Oso]

i'd have to say that the bell story is maybe one of those stories that has become exagerated over time.

or maybe not...no video...can't be proved or disproved :)


but, the experiment could be replicated.


and...I think the difference between the two examples (becca vs. seven) is that the bell was supended on a rope. so, something different from a deadlift.


but, anyway, I'm procrastinating when I should be cleaning my pigsty of a house.

:)

[Chief Fox]

Do any of you guys have the book "Kung FU, History Philosopy and Technique"? That bell story reminds me of the training techniques in the back of it.

Here's one: Dig a shallow hole like 6 inches deep get into it and jump out up on to the ground. Every day dig the hole a little deeper and jump out on to thr ground. In a few months you'll be jumping up out of a 6 foot hole.

There's a bunch of others but thats the only one that comes to mind right now.

[SevenStar]

I used to do several of the exercises in that book - the hole digging is merely plyometrics. I don't believe them when they say the monks used to jump 12 feet in the air to ignite lanterns, however. When I was a teen, I tried the hole jumping, but my dad had a mad cow when he noticed the nice hole in his garden... needless to say, he may me fill it back in.

There is another in there called jade belt that I used to do. it was to increase bear hugging strength and lifting power.

I don't put any stock in most of them though, like gecko crawling, which supposedly teaches you to scale a wall with your back to it by using only your heels and fingers, and like the invisible step one, where they say that if you get to a point where you can walk on rice paper and not make a sound (or something like that) that you will then be able to walk in sand without leaving a footprint.

[Oso]

hey seven, totally OT but since I know you like K&D...just stumbled across some Kyoto Jazz Massive stuff that's pretty good.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005A1FC/metasoul/102-6642884-5771340

and, yea, probably the most important thing about (and I'm gonna use this word very deliberately) real kung fu training is to acknowledge that those stories and legends are just that. nice to read about and I've surely tried my hand at some gecko wall action but I soon discovered that the most reliable way to get up a wall was w/ rope and jumars. ;)

[blake]

Think getting one of those weight vests and doing some forms and drills, and gradually increasing the weights would help?

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Toby
Rule of thumb is:

< 6 reps for strength.
6-20 reps for hypertrophy.
> 20 reps for endurance.

Until you throw in varying TUTs :D

[Toby]

:mad: :mad:

That's why it was a rule of thumb.

:D

[Toby]

Originally posted by Oso
I got complaints about that, Ming Yue includedYeah, but we all know she's a whinger :D.

[Ming Yue]

:p :p :p :p :p :p :p

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blake
Think getting one of those weight vests and doing some forms and drills, and gradually increasing the weights would help?

definitely. BUT, I've never seen a vest heavier than 100 pounds...

[Becca]

Originally posted by SevenStar
I dunno about that one... can heathy, strong adults who did not do this training move it? here's why I'm asking:


I have a kid. Now, let's say I take one of the 80lb dumbells home with me and tell him to pick it up - he can't budge it, as it weighs more than he does. I can have him try to pick it up every day, and his attempts may have some benefit. Now, I can get another kid who is 13, and he may be able to actually pick up the dumbell. It's not because he'd trained every day since he was a kid, but merely because he is older and stronger than the six year old. That 13 year old who could pick up the dumbell may not be able to push a truck, but I can, because I am older and stronger.

Also with that example, the bell weighs the same, no matter how old the boy is, so the resistance is still not progressive. What happens once he can push the bell?
Actually, there is video of it. It's in the chinese vid of Bruce Lee when he was younger. Don't know the name of it, but I've mentioned it several times. My 9-year-old saw a clip of a kid his age having nuts broken on his bare skull and decided to try those head-hardening skills. Sifu told him he was hard-headed enough (;) ) then showed him some rudimentary finger skill exersizes. I'll let you know in about 10 years if it worked. :D