Pine Mook Jong

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey guys,
I'm in the market for a mook jong and I know someone who is selling one made of Pine.
I haven't seen it yet so I can't comment on the condition, but I'm wondering if anyone has seen or tried one made out of pine.
Any problems that might come to mind?

J

[Whiplash]

A friend has started making a few dummies - his first one was in pine (cheaper in case he stuffed up). It's not too bad, if a little light compared to some others. The biggest problem he had was that since it's a 'softer' wood it cracked a bit easily when making the holes for the arms.

[El Tejon]

Jeff,

I've had my current mook since '99. It was custom made by a sihing of mine who is a carpenter specializing in custom furniture.

It has a pine body and burled maple arms and leg (the arms are really dark so it's a two-toned affair). It has been outstanding so far. Slight discolouration where I kick and strike it.

No cracking or splitting as was mentioned above. However, this is Midwestern Northern White Pine so quality is different than what you may get in ANZACland???

[Airdrawndagger]

On the subject,

Can anyone with a good sense of knowledge answer the following questions, cause I to am in the market for one...

1. What kind of wood is good, better, best.
2. What kind of wood is not?
3. What are the proper mesurements for the body, leg, and arms?
4. Wall mounted or free standing?
5. Should i get a traditional size/height jong if I am 5'11 or adjustable to my height?
6. Where is a good place to get one? website???


Thanks,
-ADD-

[Toby]

I'm a noob with my own homemade one, but here's my opinions:

1. What kind of wood is good, better, best.
Hardwood, hardwood from a similar climate, local hardwood.
2. What kind of wood is not?
Softwood from a completely different climate.
3. What are the proper mesurements for the body, leg, and arms?
(i) Measure up the ones in your kwoon, esp. the one you like the best.
(ii) Ask your sifu if he has plans.
(iii) Buy my friend Ironfist's plans :D. He's active on the main forum and the training forum.
(iv) Search the internet. Plenty of plans out there.
4. Wall mounted or free standing?
I like free standing. My wc brother just made a wall mounted one and he's happy. However, he made brackets in the wall (heavy hook-type brackets that the jong hangs off) that allow a bit of movement of the jong.
5. Should i get a traditional size/height jong if I am 5'11 or adjustable to my height?
I like one that's right for me. I'm 6'2" so a traditional one might not fit me as well. IIRC my upper arms are at about my armpits. My lower arm is 12" (?) lower than that. My knee is at the same height as my bent knee (23"). My leg enters the jong 5" higher than that.
6. Where is a good place to get one? website???
Make it yourself. Otherwise search this forum. This comes up every now and then and lots of links have been posted.

Hope that helps.

[stuartm]

Hi,

Pine should be fine as long as it has been treated properly. Telegraph poles are ideal as they have been soaked in creoste for years, at least in the UK thats the case. You can also pick them up for free sometimes.

The arms will definitely need to be hardwood though, oak is best but a cheaper hardwood like cherry will do the job.

Stu

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey guys,
Thanx for all the responses.
I haven't seen it yet but I think the arms and legs may be made out of pine as well and that scares me (for breaks). We'll see.
It's taking me longer than I thought to buy one, mostly due to myself. I'll let you guys know what happens.

J

[kj]

The "responsiveness" of the dummy is an important selection factor for many. Obviously weight and density of the wood will impact the play of the dummy, as will tolerances of the holes vs. arms/leg, and also the mounting methods and slat material.

We (me and those following similar guidance) prefer very dense wood (e.g., hard maple or oak vs. a softwood like pine), and a dummy body weighing 70 pounds minimum; ours is about 72 pounds with about an another 9 pounds when arms and leg are included. Up to about 90 pounds should be okay without a completely different dynamic. We went with ash or pecan for slats providing a good combination of durability and give.

Other important dimensions are the spacing of the arms. We prefer a very narrow spacing between the upper arms to enforce precision and encourage ability to move in tight spaces.

You can get one made to your personal measurements, though there is at least as much room for error in doing so as there is in obtaining one that is nominally built to accommodate people of most statures along with a stand to accommodate some height adjustment. Recommendations for personal measurements also very, and as always, you pays your money and takes your chances. A lot of folks aren't that fussy, in which case it may not matter much.

FWIW, we recently had a dummy crafted to our specs by Carina Cirrincione (http://little-raven.com/RS/MA/Jong.html), and it came out great. In addition to her own specs, one like ours is now available by request.

Weight aside, a pine dummy won't hold up like a hardwood. I would definitely not go with pine for arms and legs even if comprosing elsewhere. Whatever you choose, good luck with it.

Regards,
- kj

[reneritchie]

I don't remember the character anymore, but when I saw the character for the type of wood used in mainland China to make dummies, it *wasn't* hardwood.

[stuartm]

I may be wrong here but dont they use ironwood and rosewood for dummies in China / HK? I thought they were forms of hardwood?

Could well be wrong though........

[Toby]

Personally I like my hardwood. It's the right weight for me. We've got some of the shaped hollow board ones in the kwoon and they are too light for my liking. I like a bit of resistance (ideally the same weight as me).

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by stuartm
Hi,

Pine should be fine as long as it has been treated properly. Telegraph poles are ideal as they have been soaked in creoste for years, at least in the UK thats the case. You can also pick them up for free sometimes.I studied wood chemistry and stuff and believe me, you DO NOT want to repeatedly punch anything that has been soaked in creosote!

I wouldn't really go with pine at all for similar reasons... the resinates are great for making antiseptic but a very strong irritant esp on broken/rough skin. Apart from the fact that the fibres will deteriorate quicker than many hardwoods under lateral impact stress.

Rene, dunno how accurate China's words for woods are, but for example, in English, the word teak describes over 150 varieties of some quite different species of trees, as does mahogany. And don't forget, balsa is a hardwood. The dummies in the WC HQ and Sifu Ng's kwoon on Nathan Road almost definitely had tyloses, which means they are hardwood.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Mat
I studied wood chemistry and stuff and believe me, you DO NOT want to repeatedly punch anything that has been soaked in creosote!

I wouldn't really go with pine at all for similar reasons... the resinates are great for making antiseptic but a very strong irritant esp on broken/rough skin. Apart from the fact that the fibres will deteriorate quicker than many hardwoods under lateral impact stress. Mat,
Thanks for the excellent advice and explanations. :cool:

[Vajramusti]

Good post Mat.

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey guys,
This is awesome info.
I really appreciate it.
:)

J

[Toby]

Originally posted by Mat
I studied wood chemistry and stuff and believe me, you DO NOT want to repeatedly punch anything that has been soaked in creosote!Yeah, that didn't sound good to me either. In Oz you can get old phone poles that aren't treated - good hardwood ones. They're probably rare as hens teeth nowadays. My parents used them as verandah posts and roof supports in a house they built. Newer ones are treated (with whatever they use in Oz) and I wouldn't want to be hitting that every day.

[Matrix]

I knew that creosote was carcinogenic. Here's something I just found on the Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry site (http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts85.html) , with respect to this substance. :eek:

How likely is creosote to cause cancer?
Long-term exposure, especially direct contact with skin during wood treatment or manufacture of coal tar creosote-treated products, to low levels of creosote has resulted in skin cancer and cancer of the scrotum. Cancer of the scrotum in chimney sweeps has been associated with long-term skin exposure to soot and coal tar creosotes. Animal studies have also shown skin cancer from skin exposure to coal tar products.

The International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) has determined that coal tar creosote is probably carcinogenic to humans. The EPA has also determined that coal tar creosote is a probable human carcinogen.

[Airdrawndagger]

woodendummy.com has a very good website for jongs for sale. They custom design them and use Teakwood(a type of hardwood) from Asia. Has anyone heard of this type of wood? Any advice would be appreciated, im in the market for a jong!

[wingchunner]

We have excellent dummies made. You can order them via this website:

http://www.immortalpalm.com

Marty

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey everyone,
Just wanted to continue this on this thread.
Well,

I bought a mook jong!
I took everyone's advice on this thread and while I was mulling it over in my head what to do (about a month and a half ago) a local guy who built our club's mook jong said he'd make 2 more. The one we've got in the club is great, I think it's about 6 or 7 years old, has taken alot of abuse and it looks like brand new.
He makes them out of Maple and Birch. On top of that, he only charged me $950 (Canadian) which IMO and from the other mook jongs that I've seen on the net, he probably could have charged double that.
Anyways, I'm pretty excited because he called me last night to say that it's ready. I'm hoping I can pick it up this weekend.

So anyways, I just wanted to say thanks for all the info.

Now, I've got a mounting question :D

Do any of you guys have any photos of how you mounted your mook jongs?
I'm trying to decide if I want to put it in a fixed place or use a portable stand.
I'm wondering if a portable stand may move when you are doing your form.

thanks again,

J

[pvwingchun]

My body is made of pine and my arms are maple, which is a very hard dense wood. The biggset problem I have had is with the arms being hard and the body soft is that over time the arm holes or slots have tended to loosen up some. The body and arms are treated with tung oil which was kind of sticky at first but once it dried thouroughly it has a nice finish on it.

John

[Mr Punch]

BTW I think maple and birch are both pretty inert as timber, but they both contain salicylic acid whilst growing so if there is any effect it should have mild pain relieving properties!!! :D (Salicylic acid is the main component of aspirin!)

[Toby]

Do any of you guys have any photos of how you mounted your mook jongs?
I'm trying to decide if I want to put it in a fixed place or use a portable stand.
I'm wondering if a portable stand may move when you are doing your form.No photos, but I put mine up on the std post and rail setup. To do that you need the holes for the rails to slot through though. They were the last holes I put through the trunk, so I didn't have an issue with lining them up just right, but they are (IMHO) the most difficult to get right, primarily because they're offset off the centre line (mine are 40mm behind the centre line so my dummy's centre of gravity is forward of the rails it rests on). I certainly wouldn't want to do them first of all the holes I did (I did the lower arm first, since that's the easiest).

My whole setup weighs a tonne, probably at least 100kg all up, maybe 120kg, so there's no issues with it moving around too much, although it will "rock" and bounce on the rails a bit. My sidai has his mounted on brackets fixed to the wall. The way he has the brackets means his is free to move around a bit.

[curtis]

Hello guys, And Kathy Jo. ;-)

this is a great topic.
although Ide like to let everyone know the terms Hard woods and soft woods and a somewhat a misnomer.
not all SOFT woods are soft, Yellow pine is very hard, and balsa wood is a hard wood.
I could go one... but the best woods for a dummy is a dense wood, something that will hold up to the shock and damage it will receive in the normal use of playing with the dummy.
at our school I made the first dummy out of yellow pine 20 years ago, since then the dummy has gone through two sets of arms (first oak ones and now hard maple ones) the yellow pine holds up very nicely, but I agree that Oak, Ash, hard maple, and others dense woods are the best woods for this job.

I was asked to repair a Chinese made mook jong, the wood was support to be teak, (which is a very good wood of choice,) but either is wasn't teak or they just used a bad piece of teak, the wood had rot and was damaged, the owner didn't notice until something (be accident) hit and damaged the body.
You need to be careful when buying a dummy, the name and where it came from isn't always the key factor. There are lots of good people out there who make dummies ranging in price from pennies the thousands of dollars, My advice ,IS to do your homework and ask for references,(people who have bought there produce before) it wont make sure that you will get exactly what you are looking for, but it will help.
As I see it the biggest factor out there is money, Nothing is free, and it cost money to make a good product, but all to many people are in it just for the money, and don't care about the quality.SO you do need to be careful, when buying anything of quality, that you plan to have around for many years.
That's just my two cents.
sincerely.
C.A.G.

[curtis]

"O" Sorta a post scriptum.(P.S.) Jeff Bussey Im glad to here you found a good dummy. Although I wish I could find someone like you to buy some of the dummys I make, Most of the people who want to buy a dummy I find, would conplain if I gave mine away for FREE , conplaining that I wouldnt deliver it! ;-)

Nothing is Free, and You get what you pay for! Im glad to hear you got what you wanted.

[Mr Punch]

although Ide like to let everyone know the terms Hard woods and soft woods and a somewhat a misnomer.
not all SOFT woods are soft, Yellow pine is very hard, and balsa wood is a hard wood.True. but i don't want to start going into the differences between them in parenchyma, tyloses, exudates etc right now! But for the consumer, you do have a very good point, though I hope that nobody's trying to pass off a balsa jong as a durable hardwood!!! :o


but the best woods for a dummy is a dense woodYep.
I made the first dummy out of yellow pine 20 years ago...Still don't really like pine. Sure the exudates have some antiseptic properties but they're probably not good to ingrain into minor abrasions of your skin over some time
the wood was support to be teak, (which is a very good wood of choice,) but either is wasn't teak or they just used a bad piece of teak...There are approximately 170 woods known regionally or internationally as 'teak'. It's a very good marketing tool. It doesn't mean whichever one it is is automatically going to be the best timber. Plus we have to look at rot factors and climate and all that, so basically, if you're not in the same part of the world as the wood comes from the chances are it will deteriorate quicker, or with more warp even after drying or whatever.

[curtis]

Toby
Have you figured out how you want to mount your dummy?

in not check out http://www.little-raven.com there Unistand Accessories
stand is nice.

you can also check out Great Lion.http://www.woodendummy.net/intro.html

they have a number of stands.

It all depends on what you want and need from your dummy.
Ive made around 15 different kinds of stands over the years. it all depends what you want. each stand has its highlights and its draw backs. Again its your preferance.

Good luck in your chooseing. :-)
Talk to you latter.

[Toby]

curtis, it was Jeff who was asking, not me ;).

Anyway, it's a nice day so I went outside and took a snap of mine. Unfortunately, the day was too nice and so there are a bunch of shadows on it. But you can see how mine is mounted Jeff - pretty much the way I see most of them mounted. I've also seen the corner ones, which are pretty cool if you have a nice corner somewhere. And ones mounted in a tyre rim and tyre, which I don't like so much. Also ones with two sideways braces and a back brace directly underneath the dummy (like the tyre idea). The leg supports any forward rocking. The ones (like the last two) with a small "footprint" aren't stable enough IMHO. I like a nice big base to support any movement.

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey Toby,
Thanks for the pic!!
I haven't seen that kind of mount before (I don't get out much :) ) It looks pretty cool.
Do you have any problems with it moving around when you do the form?

J

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey Curtis,
Any chance you took any photos of the stands you built?
I'd love to see some of them if you do.
J

[Toby]

I haven't seen that kind of mount before (I don't get out much :) ) It looks pretty cool.Most of ours are mounted like that - I just copied the ones in the kwoon. I guess the main difference between mine and the conventional one is the diagonal supports. I presume these are there to stop the frame collapsing like a parallelogram. That's not possible with mine since the crossbeams are very tightly inserted all the way through the 4x4 uprights in a mortise and tenon joint. I.e. I had to hammer them for some time to get the joints together. The diagonal supports also would add some stiffness and strength to the crossbeams, although again I overengineered and they are 75mm x 30mm.


Do you have any problems with it moving around when you do the form?No way. Like I said earlier the whole thing weighs a tonne. I can pick it up with great difficulty (and I regularly deadlift 350lb so I have a scale of reference to compare with). It won't move backwards because the wall stops the feet. Potplants help stop it going sideways or forwards (but it wouldn't happen anyway). There is a nice bit of movement in the whole thing (flex-wise) but certainly not as much as some of the lightweight dummies I've worked on. You can also rock it a bit but again, it's so heavy that it's in no danger of falling over (plus I've got a pretty wide base on it - each upright base is 22" x 22" and the leg acts as a forward support too).

[curtis]

Hello Yes I have a few pix. of different dummies and stands.

One big problem, Is how do you post pix. on this forum?

I have one pix. of some portable dummies on stands. I have a two dummy stand. A wall unit at the kwoon that is suspended on cables, it holds three dummies.( the height can be adjusted for a child to a large man.)

As Ive said earlier Ive made around 15 different types of dummy stands. (I dont have pictures of most of them. Im sorry.) but I do still have my notes.

Ive used a plywood base, that your weight holds the dummy on the ground,(Its similar to Ravens stand.)

Ive used 1" steel plate and wielded posts to the plate, and then mounted it.

Ive made corner units, that only use up wasted space.

Ive even made one that hangs down from a I beam.

It all depends on the persons living conductions, Apartment ,house. basement or garage, perment, or mobile base.... again it depends on the persons wants and needs.

tell me your e-mail address and I can send you any/ all the pix. I have.

Or better yet tell me how to add an attachment to this forum? and I can post a few here.
Or if you like I have a picture posted at http://www.legacywoodworking.com/
Go the the artest collum, and look up my name. I have three dummys and an artical about the mook jongs. you can see a concreat tire moble base that I like to make, its cheep and easy to make. plus it works rather well, for a moble base.
check it out!
Have a good night.

[curtis]

Hello again
this might be easer to use http://www.legacywoodworking.com/galleryItem.cfm?project=56

It gos directly to the page.

these dummys are my minni mook jongs. thay are the dummys I like to make the best. some people like them, some dont.

the buyer gets whatever thay want to pay for.

The only problem is I dont ship them, so you need to pick up the dummys or be local to my eara.

thats the Detroit. Mi.

[KPM]

Hey Curtis!

Your worksmanship looks great! Just one question though. Your arms don't look like they are "loose-fitted." Do they have any movement or "play" in them?

Keith

[curtis]

Good morning!
Yes thay have some play, the dummys in the pictures have round mortices, not square,Thay are easer to make, the tendons on the arms are 1 1/2" and the mortice in 40mm appx. 2/32" differance. another trick with these dummys is, thay are hung by the use of punchpress springs, so the body also has some play as well in it. this give them a real nice feel, somemovement but its firm.

Sifu Phil Redmond has played with them, He has stated how he liked the feel.

Again as the pix. stated on the Legacy web site, these are my dezine, and what I like to make, there are few reasions why. first I like these little guys, and second I can make 4 minni-mook jongs out of the same wood thay I need to use to make one full sized dummy. and to BOOT . I also make a nice leg that can be added to the stand.
Now no one has asked the price Yet but. I normaly sell to just Our students (WCD) but I as open to anyone, (as long as thay pick it up) for $400.00 stand and all, the buyer has a choice of tire stand or plywood, others can be supplied but thats some what extea. Plus one more thing that some buyers like, is I make two dummys at the same time, so If you have a school you can buy two dummys that are exactly the same. (twins!)
I just finished making a verry nice set of walnut dummys, and am now makeing a Mahogany one. the head dressings varry Thats art work, but crown or bead... Just adds a touch of class, makeing a useable tool into a peice of furniture, Mook jongs made for the front room not the basement. ;-)
Have a good day.