Arthur Saxon on strength

[Andy62]

Arthur Saxon was known as the "Iron Master" and was one of the strongest men of all time. I think you will find his definition of strength interesting.


http://www.sandowplus.co.uk/Competition/Saxon/DPP/dpp01.htm#4[/url]

[Andy62]

http://www.sandowplus.co.uk/Competition/Saxon/DPP/dpp01.htm#4

[Toby]

Originally posted by Andy62
I think you will find his definition of strength interesting.Historically interesting, yes. It is interesting to see how they thought back then. I also heard that once they thought the earth was flat. Lol! Imagine that!

[Andy62]

That thinking is a relevant today as it was then.

[Toby]

"... the ability, if you are a cyclist, to jump on your machine and ride 100 miles at any time without undue fatigue;"

That's not strength.

[Andy62]

All around strength is important. Without psychological and mental strength your strength is useless in most of the battles of life. Endurance strength is also important.

[WinterPalm]

I agree with what he is saying. Too often we think that a max lift is indicative of real all around strength but what about the psychological strength? Anyone that can spend a few nights without sleep and keep going is strong in my book.

[IronFist]

Arthur Saxon or one of the old time strong men had a power drink they used to make in which one of the ingredients was beer. w00t!

[Chief Fox]

Originally posted by Toby
"... the ability, if you are a cyclist, to jump on your machine and ride 100 miles at any time without undue fatigue;"

That's not strength.

Well, what do you call it?

[Bluejay]

Really
Andy62 computer problem again




http://www.naturalstrength.com/history/saxontrio.html

[Toby]

Originally posted by Chief Fox
Well, what do you call it?Endurance.

[IronFist]

Toby has just made the correct ride 100 miles on a bike and not be tired when it was done.

[norther practitioner]

What is the difference between stamina and endurance?

[Samurai Jack]

Norther: No difference, the words are slight variations on the same concept:

stam·i·na: ( P ) Pronunciation Key (stm-n)
n.
Physical or moral strength to resist or withstand illness, fatigue, or hardship; endurance.


endurance

n 1: the power to withstand hardship or stress; "the marathon tests a runner's endurance" 2: a state of surviving; remaining alive [syn: stamina]

[Samurai Jack]

Dude, Andy, if you want to log on as Andy62, just log on by filling in the fields at the bottom of the main forum page. No computer problem will prevent you from logging on properly, most people here use multiple computers.

[Andy62]

Thanks, I'll do that

[Chief Fox]

Originally posted by Toby
Endurance.

Do you think that endurance is a form of strength?

Do you think being mentally tough is a form of strength?

or Do you think that strength is the ability to lift heavy weights?

Would you call someone strong if they have the ability to lift heavy weights but not the will?

Who is stronger?
A person that is physically strong but mentally weak?
or
A person that is mentally strong and physically average?

I would argue that the mentally tough person is the stronger. Look at the TV show survivor. It's never the physically strongest person that wins. It's always an average person that is mentally tough.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Chief Fox
Do you think that endurance is a form of strength?


I hate to play semantics but it depends on your definition of "strength." Since endurance involves your muscles most people would probably say it is a form of strength. However, it is distinctly different from strength when you're looking at "strength" as meaning the most weight you can move at once (like one rep, or limit strength).


Do you think being mentally tough is a form of strength?

Sure, but it's not measurable on an absolute scale, ie., you can never say "yesterday my mental toughness was a 5 and today it's a 7," but obviously some days you are more mentally tough than others, and it also depends on the situation, like if you're sparring and you get a busted nose you would probably stop, but if you're fighting for your life and you get a busted nose you would probably keep going. I think you're thinking of motivation. Anyway, "mental toughness" can influence both strength and endurance. Is it a "form" of strength? I dunno.


or Do you think that strength is the ability to lift heavy weights?

Yes. The more weight you can lift, the stronger you are.


Would you call someone strong if they have the ability to lift heavy weights but not the will?

Sure. A guy who can squat 1000lbs might not feel like squatting all day. He is still strong and has the potential even if he doesn't feel like squatting.

Would you call a Dodge Viper a fast car even if it's parked in a garage? Of course.


Who is stronger?
A person that is physically strong but mentally weak?
or
A person that is mentally strong and physically average?

The person who can lift more. This is why I hate it when someone loses and the coach or whoever goes "I guess they just wanted it more." Bulls.hit. A 140lb guy with no fighting skill who is fighting for his life against a 220lb MMA champion is going to get owned no matter how much determination he has. If the 220lb skilled guy doesn't care and to him it's just a game (mentally weak), but the other guy is fighting for his life (metally strong), the 220lb guy is still going to win.


I would argue that the mentally tough person is the stronger.

No. Please see my above example.


Look at the TV show survivor. It's never the physically strongest person that wins. It's always an average person that is mentally tough. [/B]

Right, however the TV show survivor depends on more things than just strength to win. It also factors in attitude, social ability, metabolism, and immune system to name a few things.

[Chief Fox]

Originally posted by IronFist
I hate to play semantics but it depends on your definition of "strength."

I totally agree with you. BUT I look at strength as being much more than just physical strength. I think it is multi-dimensional.

For example: Last week I was watching TV and there was this couple who were having their conjoined twins surgically seperated. The dad was talking about the potential of one or both of the girls dieing. And he was being realistic about the possible outcome. Anyway it was a very touching story and I turned to my wife and I said "That guy is strong". It was the only word that I could think of that described the situation.

So it is all semantics/perception.

I *personally* think that mental toughness is much more valuable than physical strength.

Your analogy of the 140lb. guy with no fighting skill who is fighting for his life against a 220lb MMA champion isn't really fair because you introduce another variable (SKILL).

Lets put those two guys in a pull up contest or put them on obstical course or lets put a 140lb boxer/MMA fighter up against a 220lb street thug fighting for their lives. The outcomes would be much different but because the 220lb guy can bench more or squat more that makes him stronger. I don't think so.

This may be one of those arguments where there is no clear right or wrong. Interesting to talk about though.

[Toby]

Do you think that endurance is a form of strength?
Not by my definition.
Do you think being mentally tough is a form of strength?
Yes.
Do you think that strength is the ability to lift heavy weights?
Yes (in simple terms).
Would you call someone strong if they have the ability to lift heavy weights but not the will?
Yes.
Who is stronger?
A person that is physically strong but mentally weak?
or
A person that is mentally strong and physically average?
Depends on the testing criteria.
I would argue that the mentally tough person is the stronger. Look at the TV show survivor. It's never the physically strongest person that wins. It's always an average person that is mentally tough.Uhh, OK :rolleyes:. I'd argue that politics is waaaay more important than any form of strength on that show. I don't really watch it, but I have watched some shows - if you were stuck on an island, would you want Rupert the grizzly Adams type guy with you, or whoever actually won that show?

On your topic, I also think that there are two distinct mental attributes - mental strength and mental endurance - similar to physical attributes.

[Chief Fox]

Originally posted by Toby
Uhh, OK :rolleyes:. I'd argue that politics is waaaay more important than any form of strength on that show. I don't really watch it, but I have watched some shows - if you were stuck on an island, would you want Rupert the grizzly Adams type guy with you, or whoever actually won that show?


Maybe I got a little off topic with this example. :D

[abobo]

I've read some of that Sandow site before. The history is good but the training information can be pretty thin. For example, guys who can lift other people overhead and drive iron spikes into wood with their hands are shown playing with 5 lb dumbbells.

[Andy62]

That was a trend of the times during the turn of the century. Professor Louis Attilla was the recognized training guru of the time and that was the method he recommended. Most of the athletes of that era [Farmer Burns, Jack Dempsey, James Corbett, John L. Sullivan etc] believed that heavy lifting would slow you down. That certainly wasn't true in the case of Arthur Saxon who trained with very heavy weights.

[Samurai Jack]

In addition to being a world class wrestler Farmer Burns was also a well known strongman. He held the deadlift record for several decades at over seven hundred pounds. Obviously he believed in lifting heavy.

Dempsey, Sullivan, and Corbett were all boxers, not weight lifters. Boxers typically didn't use heavy weights in Corbett and Sullivan's day, not because they didn't believe in them, but because they weren't commonly available. The York Barbell company didn't mass-produce weight training gear until 1929.

[IronFist]

^ lol, nice sig quote, SJ :)

[Andy62]

There was a real bias against lifting heavy weights that existed far beyond that time. To a large part that was due to the early circus strong men who as part of their compensation received free beer. Their over 300 pound bodies helped develop the muscle bound myth. Bob Hoffman deserves credit for breaking that Myth at Springfield College in the 1950s. One of the land mark events was an issue of Strength And Health that came out in the mid 1950s with the cover showing a picture of Billy Cannon of the national champion LSU Tigers Football team with the quote,"Is The Fastest Man In Football Also The Strongest?" Hoffman broke down the bias against weightlifting at that point and the Iron Curtain countries adapted it to their training with the results we all remember.

SJ. Farmer Burns was not a weightlifter and specifically was against the use of heavy weights in training. His entire course is posted on the sandow site and is available for your review free of charge.

Weights are the preferred method of training for many athletes,but there always have been and still are athletes who prefer bodyweight or tension exercises. In the martial arts these include Renzo Gracie as mentioned in his book "Mastering Jujitsu" and John McSweney, a member of the World Martial Arts Hall Of Fame and developer of the "Tiger Moves" tensing exercise routine currently being promoted by John Peterson.

[Toby]

Originally posted by Andy62
In the martial arts these include Renzo Gracie as mentioned in his book "Mastering Jujitsu"Pretty sure Ford's already told you he lifted with Renzo or something similar just a few weeks ago.

[Andy62]

I'm just going by what Renzo says in his book.

[Samurai Jack]

Originally posted by Andy62
Farmer Burns was not a weightlifter

Curses! For the first time since you've started posting here, you're right. I was thinking of Bob Peoples (http://www.americanpowerliftevolution.net/BobPeoplespage.html). Well, unlike some, I'll admit it when I'm wrong. Mark it on your calendars boys, it won't happen again.

[Vash]

Having strength means you can move heavy ****.

Having endurance means you can move for long time.

Having power means you can move something quickly.

Argue and be wrong.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Andy62
strong men who as part of their compensation received free beer.

:eek: :eek: :eek:

[fa_jing]

If there are free Swiss Cake Rolls too, then I'm in.

[Andy62]

Bob Peoples was a fantastic dead lifter and way ahead of his time.