Wing Chun Qi Gong [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

WCWC

08-12-2010, 08:57 AM

Long Beach, California – Aug 12th, 2010 - West Coast Wing Chun announces the arrival of Grandmaster Samuel
Kwok, founder of the Samuel Kwok Wing Chun Martial Art Association based in the UK, to Southern California.

Grandmaster Kwok will conduct a seminar in Chi Gong for Healing on October 10th, 2010 at the Belmont Shores
Chalet in Long Beach, California. Although Grandmaster Kwok teaches through out Europe, Asia, South
America, Africa and Australia, this will be his first seminar in California, and the first time he has chosen to
teach Chi Gong healing to the public.

Kwok is acclaimed world wide for his Wing Chun Kung Fu skills and has dedicated his life to the preservation
of Wing Chun Kung Fu as taught by Grandmaster Ip Man, teacher to the late Bruce Lee. Kwok has been
awarded a BA honor from Manchester University for his lifetime achievement and promotion of martial arts, and
the Samuel Kwok Wing Chun Martial Art Association extends to affiliates across six continents.
Grandmaster Kwok has practiced Chi Gong concurrently to Wing Chun Kung Fu for forty years and considers it
an important component of martial arts training. Kung fu practitioners in China have used Chi Gong to build and
harness internal power for thousand of years. A strike thrown with concentrated and channeled energy is
considered far more effective than an “empty” strike.

In addition to its importance in kung fu, Chi Gong is used through out China in self-healing practices, and
ubiquitously by the medical community. Grandmaster Kwok, though known world-wide for his
expertise in kung fu, has shared little of his life as a healer. He has spent his life-time as a psychiatric nurse
practicing in England where he resides, and has used his skills in Chi Gong to facilitate and manifest healing
within his patients.

Chi Gong is also used in meditative practices in both Buddhist and Taoist traditions. Meditative training in Chi
Gong focuses on breathing, chi or energy direction, deep concentration and intent, and acts as a tool for selfrealization.
Samuel Kwok has decided to conduct his first Chi Gong healing seminar with West Coast Wing Chun, an
affiliate Wing Chun school residing in Long Beach, Ca. West Coast Wing Chun's chief instructor, Sifu Bryan
Talbot has practiced kung fu for thirty-seven years, and Chi Gong for nearly twenty years.

In addition, he is a certified and practicing Reiki Master, as well as massage therapist. For more information,
contact West Coast Wing Chun's seminar hotline at 562-546-2805 or their main number at 562-612-7332. Email
inquiries may be forwarded to westcoastwingchun@ipmankungfu.com.

Yoshiyahu

01-01-2012, 02:21 AM

Yoshiyahu

01-01-2012, 02:45 AM

Are there any more videos of the others?

1.Rising arms begins by expanding the whole body vertically, from toes to fingers.

2.Yielding breath works on stretching the whole body in a slightly different way, bending the wrists backwars. This form is often used to link the others together when practiced in sequence.

3.Side-to-side waist turns the hips and torso of a practitioner, working the waist (an important component trained for power in the boxing system) in a horizontal manner.

4.Side diaphram bends, works the waist and also involves stretching the intercostal muscles (used heavily in the sinking and rising methods of wing chun kuen).

5.Single hoof, so named because it focuses on one hand at a time, is almost identical to the threading exercises seen in systems like baguazhang. This helps work the flexibility of the bridges and the balance in conjunction with the backwards and forwards movement of the waist.

6. Expanding chest serves to fortify the chest which is often "sunken" in wing chun kuen boxing, stretching through the pectorals and shoulders, and continues the whole body work of the yielding breath.

7. Dropping power is also seen in the hei gung of other arts. The skyward reaching of the arms, combined with a complete squatting and rising of the legs, works the entire body and end the series with the practitioner feeling fully invigorated.

8.Overturning arms completes the body of the exercises, reaching out and over in the horizontal plane. Following this, both the back and the dan tian are usually stimulated.

EternalSpring

01-01-2012, 03:44 AM

Does your Wing Chun have Chi Kung Exercises outside of Sil Lim Tau?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEoFkCm7WOQ

One Wing Chun Exercise I practice is:

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/articles/article_ritchie04_02.jpg

interesting, looking at the link, I was taught that drill using a cup of water on each hand rather than a plant, and it wasn't a chi kung drill but rather a double broadsword drill. still cool to see that it's a chi kung drill as well.

JPinAZ

01-01-2012, 05:06 PM

Eric_H

01-01-2012, 09:52 PM

That's a variation on the teacup drill seen in a lot of different IMA. Typically it's driven by the waist in a manner that's alien to wing chun. Till you put up a video of how exactly you do it, I can't see if it can be done in away that agrees with the wing chun body characteristic.

Best,

**EDIT**

I missed the link in the first post. That's bagua body, not WC.

wtxs

01-02-2012, 11:29 AM

I am not sure I see how the body methods in the video or in the picture are supportive WCK body methods?

Yes, WCK has chi gung training. In HFY, we have Jiam Jong/faat ging training along with keun jong/dip gwat gung SLT training. They focus on different aspects, but they are performed with proper WCK upright posture and body methods.

That's a variation on the teacup drill seen in a lot of different IMA. Typically it's driven by the waist in a manner that's alien to wing chun. Till you put up a video of how exactly you do it, I can't see if it can be done in away that agrees with the wing chun body characteristic.

Best,

**EDIT**

I missed the link in the first post. That's bagua body, not WC.

Hey dudes, the new year just started, and the new fantasies had just started. At lease let him float in it for awhile before you'all popping those bubbles. :p

Grumblegeezer

01-02-2012, 11:31 AM

Does your Wing Chun have Chi Kung Exercises outside of Sil Lim Tau?[/IMG]

No.

Such exercises may be of value, and individual instructors may use them supplementally, but it is not a part of our Ving Tsun.

Vajramusti

01-02-2012, 12:11 PM

Hey dudes, the new year just started, and the new fantasies had just started. At lease let him float in it for awhile before you'all popping those bubbles. :p
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wtxs

Some folks are more patient- I don't like to waste my time with his posts.

joy chaudhuri

Yoshiyahu

01-02-2012, 01:00 PM

Yes the video is Wing Chun Vid?

An yes you can use a tea cup, egg, or saucer...I perfer to use a boading balls.

If its Chi Kung surely it would deviate from the fighting method. Maybe the chi kung drills do something more like heal the body from the common methods you have your body in. Like hyperextension with a chiroprator.

Some drills build jing. others do things like heal!!!

That's a variation on the teacup drill seen in a lot of different IMA. Typically it's driven by the waist in a manner that's alien to wing chun. Till you put up a video of how exactly you do it, I can't see if it can be done in away that agrees with the wing chun body characteristic.

Best,

**EDIT**

I missed the link in the first post. That's bagua body, not WC.

Thanks for your opionion! I got the wording off a yuen kay san website!

No.

Such exercises may be of value, and individual instructors may use them supplementally, but it is not a part of our Ving Tsun.

Thanks for your opinion...so you dont have chi kung in your wing chun?

================================================
wtxs

Some folks are more patient- I don't like to waste my time with his posts.

joy chaudhuri

What is the purpose of your chi kung methods?

I am not sure I see how the body methods in the video or in the picture are supportive WCK body methods?

Yes, WCK has chi gung training. In HFY, we have Jiam Jong/faat ging training along with keun jong/dip gwat gung SLT training. They focus on different aspects, but they are performed with proper WCK upright posture and body methods.

RonBlair

01-02-2012, 01:25 PM

Does your Wing Chun have Chi Kung Exercises outside of Sil Lim Tau?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEoFkCm7WOQ

One Wing Chun Exercise I practice is:

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/articles/article_ritchie04_02.jpg

That's a ba gua drill. Call it wc qi gong, ba gua, whatever....

My point is that these types of gungs should be done separately from the style because the style doesn't contain everything. It's a good health drill. A lot of "qi gong" is just calisthenics done slowly.

wtxs

01-02-2012, 02:51 PM

================================================
wtxs

Some folks are more patient- I don't like to waste my time with his posts.

joy chaudhuri

Happy new year Joy. We supposed to have more wisdom, patient and tolerant at our rip old age, guess I slept through the last two classes. :D

Those pompous fools with heads full of fantasies and altered realities, wish I can bottle up all that hot air which spouting out of their mouth and feed it back through their CV1. :p

Vajramusti

01-02-2012, 03:13 PM

Happy new year Joy. We supposed to have more wisdom, patient and tolerant at our rip old age, guess I slept through the last two classes. :D

Those pompous fools with heads full of fantasies and altered realities, wish I can bottle up all that hot air which spouting out of their mouth and feed it back through their CV1. :p
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Happy new year to you too and best wishes.

joy

anerlich

01-02-2012, 03:38 PM

Vajramusti

01-02-2012, 04:10 PM

Just as it is not a grappling or groundfighting system, WC as I learned it is not a system of qigong or health cultivation. I have been taught a number of qigong exercises over the years, but even when I was learning IMA these were treated as separate disciplines and drills and not as an integral part of the systems.
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Andrew- understood and understand your POV. The slt that i do-in the opening of the form in my lineage there is enough chi gung There are differences in lineage openings.

Given my background I do other chigungs- both Chinese and Indian (pranayama-s).

Without restarting the flood of debates on grappling and groundfighting.... in the wing chun that I do-- an important goal is to prepare oneself for self defense in different venues. Stand up is preferred and a great deal of detailed attention to structuctural integrity or tensegrity is given.
Syntheses of soft and hard can prepare one for sudden changes to horizontal and non vertical positions for self defense purposes. Of course preparing for specific sporting/competitive events involve intermalising the rules and wise adaptations and practice and relevant training..
Of course there are varieties of views on a chat list.

joy

Eric_H

01-02-2012, 06:15 PM

Thanks for your opionion! I got the wording off a yuen kay san website!

Links or it didn't happen.

This straight from the YKS line or the Vietnamese offshoot from his brother?

stonecrusher69

01-02-2012, 06:31 PM

anerlich

01-02-2012, 06:50 PM

Andrew- understood and understand your POV. The slt that i do-in the opening of the form in my lineage there is enough chi gung There are differences in lineage openings.

Joy, I don't doubt it and respect your POV. Certainly the opening sequence and slow movements at the start require discipline over the breathing, which has some crossover with qigong.

From my view the principal aim of the first section of SLT is to drill and enforce correct structure. IMO to try to make one set of movements do too many things is counterproductive.

I still occasionally practise standing post, some "Taoist yoga" exercises I learned while training in IMA, and some breathing drills from Russian MA. I dabble in Astanga as well, though mainly for promotion of flexibility and mobility rather than any qigong-type benefits. Maintenance of joint mobility is important for us more mature practitioners in my view.

Yoshiyahu

01-02-2012, 07:00 PM

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/articles/article_ritchie04_qigong.html

check it out!!!

Links or it didn't happen.

This straight from the YKS line or the Vietnamese offshoot from his brother?

Check out the site...is single hoof the only one you practice!

I used to practice a set like this a long time ago. Its a common pattern.

Eric_H

01-02-2012, 08:03 PM

Vajramusti

01-02-2012, 10:28 PM

Joy, I don't doubt it and respect your POV. Certainly the opening sequence and slow movements at the start require discipline over the breathing, which has some crossover with qigong.

From my view the principal aim of the first section of SLT is to drill and enforce correct structure. IMO to try to make one set of movements do too many things is counterproductive.

I still occasionally practise standing post, some "Taoist yoga" exercises I learned while training in IMA, and some breathing drills from Russian MA. I dabble in Astanga as well, though mainly for promotion of flexibility and mobility rather than any qigong-type benefits. Maintenance of joint mobility is important for us more mature practitioners in my view.
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Andrew :I was referring to our opening (pre first section)which is different from TWC and WT opening of the stance.There is closing and opening, before the tan.wu.fuk sequence
Standing post is good.
The ygkym can be used for chigung if the chest is opened up properly with appropriate hand positioning..
yoga pranayama(not just the asanas which help with flexibility)... also good.

joy

PS Oklahoma State just beat Stanford in OT!! American BCS football.

anerlich

01-02-2012, 11:48 PM

Andrew :I was referring to our opening (pre first section)which is different from TWC and WT opening of the stance.There is closing and opening, before the tan.wu.fuk sequence

OK, understood. I'm not familiar with that but accept what you say.

imperialtaichi

01-03-2012, 01:42 AM

Wow, does that mean if I do my Salsa slowly then I am doing Qi Gong and it would benefit my health and make my Wing Chun stronger? :D

Vajramusti

01-03-2012, 06:31 AM

Wow, does that mean if I do my Salsa slowly then I am doing Qi Gong and it would benefit my health and make my Wing Chun stronger? :D
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Dunno.I eat hot southwestern Mexican salsa but don't dance the salsa.

joy

Yoshiyahu

01-03-2012, 09:25 AM

This one is a tough call, straight out the body methods don't reflect the WC body - however so many in the YKS line listed on the sites were doctors or priests it makes some sense that they considered a strong spine a good thing to have in WC (and i agree with them) and this is an exercise they chose to use to help build it.

hmmm interesting...So Chi Gung...for healing purposes...why do you think it doesn't follow the wing chun body frame?

Why does it flow in the complete opposite direction of WC structure?

wtxs

01-03-2012, 09:46 AM

Wow, does that mean if I do my Salsa slowly then I am doing Qi Gong and it would benefit my health and make my Wing Chun stronger? :D

An slow Salsa dance with an hot babe would definitely up your "health" score ... I'm not sure if it will make your WC stronger, however the required hip movements you had to learn will be rewarded. :p

imperialtaichi

01-03-2012, 03:33 PM

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Dunno.I eat hot southwestern Mexican salsa but don't dance the salsa.

joy

Oh, Joy, hot Mexican salsa gives me Qi....

imperialtaichi

01-03-2012, 03:33 PM

An slow Salsa dance with an hot babe would definitely up your "health" score ... I'm not sure if it will make your WC stronger, however the required hip movements you had to learn will be rewarded. :p

And hot babes drain my Qi.

JPinAZ

01-03-2012, 05:01 PM

hmmm interesting...So Chi Gung...for healing purposes...why do you think it doesn't follow the wing chun body frame?

Why does it flow in the complete opposite direction of WC structure?

Are you really asking this question?? No offence, but do you actually train in WCK, or just read about it online? I am not trying to be a jerk either. I ask, because if you undestand even the first part of WCK Centerline theory (self centerline) and then looked at the pictures you took off the website to post here, you would not be asking this question.

Point blank - you can have no WC structural integrity while bending over backwards and balancing a cup/ball/whatever over & behind your head.

Maybe you could answer how you feel this position can be useful in using structure when dealing with live energy against an opponent in your WCK?

Hendrik

01-03-2012, 07:13 PM

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/articles/article_ritchie04_qigong.html

check it out!!!

Check out the site...is single hoof the only one you practice!

From my understaning via Rene, Gm Sum nung integrate these in because the long term practice of the application focus evolve WCK has caused body problem or damaging .

Gm Sum's integration is to make correction on the running away 12 main medians.

From my experience, GM Sum nung was right. The application or fighting focus evolve type of WCK has lead to cause the 12 main medians to be problematic. Thus, create liver, heart, kidney issue in a prolong practice of the evolve art. As also have Gm Robert Chu mention in his article.

YouKnowWho

01-03-2012, 07:31 PM

the long term practice of the application focus evolve WCK has caused body problem or damaging.

I agree with Hendrik on this. Sometime the combat training will "send out" your Jin, Qi, and Shen instead of "store" Jin, Qi, and Shen inside your body. If you want to live longer, you have to take care yourself and not just take care your opponent by meeting your fists with his skull.

The XingYi system is similiar to the WC system. the solo form training is the Chi Kung for both systems. In the XingYi system, you will train differently for "combat" and "self-cultivation". When you train

- combat, you concentrate on "exhale" (Fajin).
- self-cultivation, you concentrate on "inhale" (store Qi).

Hendrik

01-03-2012, 07:38 PM

I agree with Hendrik on this. Sometime the combat training will "send out" your Jin, Qi, and Shen instead of "store" Jin, Qi, and Shen inside your body. If you want to live longer, you have to take care yourself and not just take care your opponent by meeting your fists with his skull.

The XingYi system is similiar to the WC system. the solo form training is the Chi Kung for both systems. In the XingYi system, you will train differently for "combat" and "self-cultivation". When you train

- combat, you concentrate on "exhale" (Fajin).
- self-cultivation, you concentrate on "inhale" (store Qi).

It is not about live longer. It is the practice cause health problem such as bad temper due to liver medirians issue....etc. long term practice is a suicide.

anerlich

01-03-2012, 08:48 PM

Gm Robert Chu

Congrats to Robert on his apotheosis to Grandmasterhood.

I understand he got a BJJ blue belt a while back as well.

Yoshiyahu

01-03-2012, 10:49 PM

Wow, does that mean if I do my Salsa slowly then I am doing Qi Gong and it would benefit my health and make my Wing Chun stronger? :D

Actually Doing Salsa slowly for an hour can give you very strong Jing!!!! lol

Are you really asking this question?? No offence, but do you actually train in WCK, or just read about it online? I am not trying to be a jerk either. I ask, because if you undestand even the first part of WCK Centerline theory (self centerline) and then looked at the pictures you took off the website to post here, you would not be asking this question.

Point blank - you can have no WC structural integrity while bending over backwards and balancing a cup/ball/whatever over & behind your head.

Maybe you could answer how you feel this position can be useful in using structure when dealing with live energy against an opponent in your WCK?

Well since your not being a jerk I wont jest with you on your statement. In the Mook Yan Jong and Bil Gee form you have techniques that go outside of the centerline so to speak. Emergency techniques if you will. Like the three motions where you bend over at the end and throw your arms up in the air when you arise. Depending on your lineage of course. Some WC has omitted this technique in bil gee...

But the reason why i share topics of interest or talk about various things is to see where the minds are of others who practice a different branch of wing chun of my own...I like to hear others methodology, thoughts, opinions, and experiences. Instead of being like well do this and an this what i do blah blah blah...my way is right everyone else is wrong. I try an leave room for an open discussion. I try to see what people have in common or in contrast to me. I enjoy sharing and learning from you all...Do I practice WC...Yes i do. i started when i was 16. im 35 now...

As for chi gung methods. Well frankly the things i discussed are taught my Yuen Kay San sifus and chi gung methods similiar by other mainland WC sifus. Its not something i made up or created. I started learning WC along with various chi gung drills and exercises. The chi gung most of which is not directly combat worthy. Although some of it can be modified for combat. Its basically healing the body, strecthing the body and replenishing the body...The chi gung i practice gives the body what it needs.

The Saucer cup technique ie single hoof. Is designed to stretched the body that is predominantly closed and compact when fighting. It opens up several meridians and moves the chi in different ways to replenish the body. The Expanding chest method strecthes and activates meridians on your center line or conceptual meridan and governing meridan. it also strecthes and rejuvenates stagnant points on your back and your chest. Doing expanding chest before WC opens the meridians and warms the muscles up. Doing it after also reopens any blockage or stagnation that occured during training an rejuvenates the back and chest. I think Chi Gung as stretching only in a different way...Do it as a warm up and cool down the chinese way!

ie leg lifts in the air from the side and too the front or warm ups to get the chi boiling and flowing in your legs and open the meridians. Shaking your legs and arms also benefit...But you dont kick like doing these too things...

Strecthing you are arms and legs do not relate to fighting in the same way. Doing Push ups is not on the centerline? strecthing your arm behind you an pulling it down doesnt cover your centerline, doing burpees, lunges, running, and jumping rope doesn't cover your centerline but they do make your WC stronger do they not? What about kettlebells is that centerline driven?

Just because you dont understand why something is given doesn't mean its useless. Not every training tool is going to deal with WC principals or body structure. even in combat scenarios sometimes you break body structure to win the fight...

From my understaning via Rene, Gm Sum nung integrate these in because the long term practice of the application focus evolve WCK has caused body problem or damaging .

Gm Sum's integration is to make correction on the running away 12 main medians.

From my experience, GM Sum nung was right. The application or fighting focus evolve type of WCK has lead to cause the 12 main medians to be problematic. Thus, create liver, heart, kidney issue in a prolong practice of the evolve art. As also have Gm Robert Chu mention in his article.

i have to agree!

I agree with Hendrik on this. Sometime the combat training will "send out" your Jin, Qi, and Shen instead of "store" Jin, Qi, and Shen inside your body. If you want to live longer, you have to take care yourself and not just take care your opponent by meeting your fists with his skull.

The XingYi system is similiar to the WC system. the solo form training is the Chi Kung for both systems. In the XingYi system, you will train differently for "combat" and "self-cultivation". When you train

- combat, you concentrate on "exhale" (Fajin).
- self-cultivation, you concentrate on "inhale" (store Qi).

Good points very good analogy!

JPinAZ

01-04-2012, 09:22 AM

ie leg lifts in the air from the side and too the front or warm ups to get the chi boiling and flowing in your legs and open the meridians. Shaking your legs and arms also benefit...But you dont kick like doing these too things...

Strecthing you are arms and legs do not relate to fighting in the same way. Doing Push ups is not on the centerline? strecthing your arm behind you an pulling it down doesnt cover your centerline, doing burpees, lunges, running, and jumping rope doesn't cover your centerline but they do make your WC stronger do they not? What about kettlebells is that centerline driven?

Ok, so you're just talking about general excersize, stretching and chi gung, not really about WC.
The title of this thread is 'Chi Gung in WC'. I say there is Chi Gung in WCK. But, what you are talking about with the tea cup is not 'in' WC, it isn't a "WC excersize", nor is it required. People can add and do whatever they want though. And I'm not arguing that someone didn't add this to your WC. My point is, no, this is not a 'WC Chi Gung' excersize - it is just a general 'chi gung' excersize. It doesn't support proper WC Body development and has little, if anything, to do with WC directly.
But again, people can do whatever they want.

Just because you dont understand why something is given doesn't mean its useless. Not every training tool is going to deal with WC principals or body structure. even in combat scenarios sometimes you break body structure to win the fight...

Now you're not even making sense. No one said it isn't useless, you're arguing with yourself. Training tools and being 'in WC' are 2 diffrent things.
pushups, burpees and even crabwalks are useful. Are you going to argue that they too are all 'in WC'? :rolleyes:

JPinAZ

01-04-2012, 09:33 AM

But the reason why i share topics of interest or talk about various things is to see where the minds are of others who practice a different branch of wing chun of my own...I like to hear others methodology, thoughts, opinions, and experiences. Instead of being like well do this and an this what i do blah blah blah...my way is right everyone else is wrong. I try an leave room for an open discussion. I try to see what people have in common or in contrast to me. I enjoy sharing and learning from you all...Do I practice WC...Yes i do. i started when i was 16. im 35 now...

That's all very wonderful. What, besides the last sentence, does this have to do with anything I commented on or asked?

To keep the discussion going and give you a chance to share: since you asked eric "do you think it doesn't follow the wing chun body frame? Why does it flow in the complete opposite direction of WC structure?", maybe you could answer why you think it does?
Or, how you feel this position can be useful in using structure when dealing with live energy against an opponent in your WCK?

YouKnowWho

01-04-2012, 09:46 AM

It is not about live longer. It is the practice cause health problem such as bad temper due to liver medirians issue....etc. long term practice is a suicide.

The bad temper may be cause by Fajin with fast speed and exhale, or even with compress but without release. If you punch out slow and exhale slow and when you pull your punch back, you inhale fast and pull you punch back fast, you will never develop bad temper. Since punch exists in all TCMA system, anybody from any style can use simple punch drill as Chi Kung training.

Hendrik

01-04-2012, 10:56 AM

The bad temper may be cause by Fajin with fast speed and exhale, or even with compress but without release. If you punch out slow and exhale slow and when you pull your punch back, you inhale fast and pull you punch back fast, you will never develop bad temper. Since punch exists in all TCMA system, anybody from any style can use simple punch drill as Chi Kung training.

There is problem cause by improper handling. There is problem cause by imbalance engine.

The issue here in the Gm Sum wck case is the engine is imbalance .
Thus, he made the integration correction.

wtxs

01-04-2012, 11:29 AM

And hot babes drain my Qi.

You are not practice the RIGHT Qi exercise ... I heard some where the WC chin gung can turn you into an super stud, but that is if it's not an watered down version. :p

Yoshiyahu

01-04-2012, 12:29 PM

Ok, so you're just talking about general excersize, stretching and chi gung, not really about WC.
The title of this thread is 'Chi Gung in WC'. I say there is Chi Gung in WCK. But, what you are talking about with the tea cup is not 'in' WC, it isn't a "WC excersize", nor is it required. People can add and do whatever they want though. And I'm not arguing that someone didn't add this to your WC. My point is, no, this is not a 'WC Chi Gung' excersize - it is just a general 'chi gung' excersize. It doesn't support proper WC Body development and has little, if anything, to do with WC directly.
But again, people can do whatever they want.

Now you're not even making sense. No one said it isn't useless, you're arguing with yourself. Training tools and being 'in WC' are 2 diffrent things.
pushups, burpees and even crabwalks are useful. Are you going to argue that they too are all 'in WC'? :rolleyes:

Well everyone Wing Chun is different...The Pole form was not originally apart of WC. But today it is...Chi Gung was not originally apart of WC but mainland China WC utilize chi gung to stregthen their WC.

Where did the butterfly swords come from...Was it originally WC?

Some San Siks over time where created by certain Sifus...It was not originally apart of WC but it later became so...

So you say Chi Gung is not apart of WC I say it is...Its all depending on what WC you practice!!!

Eric_H

01-04-2012, 01:01 PM

Hendrik

01-04-2012, 01:01 PM

Well everyone Wing Chun is different...The Pole form was not originally apart of WC. But today it is...Chi Gung was not originally apart of WC but mainland China WC utilize chi gung to stregthen their WC.

Where did the butterfly swords come from...Was it originally WC?

Some San Siks over time where created by certain Sifus...It was not originally apart of WC but it later became so...

So you say Chi Gung is not apart of WC I say it is...Its all depending on what WC you practice!!!

in the true TCMA, Neigong is a part of WCK. Qigong is a part of Neigong.

WCK is not a fix frame art as many think today. Fix frame art has not much use in the reality as all ancient TCMA knows. Frame is good to be used as a tool to develop some particular skill. after that the tool or frame is discard.

Qigong and Zen is to elevate the art to frameless.

Thus, the WCK Kuen kuit says "come accept, goes return, let go proceed forward, using silence to lead action" it says nothing about frame or structure.
That is because WCK is beyond structure and frame.

mistaken for WCK has to keep in a type of frame or structure is actually trap oneself within a hole.

the so called center line concept or triangle shape.. ....etc was introduced to help beginner, taking that as the ultimate is suicide. take a look at mma fight, none looks like that in the reality. and no one can frame the reality with a type of structure. that only happen in the movie.

an art which mold one into a fix frame has not much value in the reality of fighting. an art without develop the body and mind can never elevate the art beyond structure and frame and thus trap oneself and get outdated as soon as others come out with new way for fighting.

the surface of mma is a good thing to see if one's art is a fix frame dead art or a live art which could sustain the challenge without need to add in more and more applications which is not accord to the philosophy of the art. IE one could see lots of WCner go to practice BJJ but one would not see true Chen Taiji doing that.

Eric_H

01-04-2012, 01:21 PM

WCK is not a fix frame art as many think today. Fix frame art has not much use in the reality as all ancient TCMA knows. Frame is good to be used as a tool to develop some particular skill. after that the tool or frame is discard.

Really? Weren't you the dude who got thrown on his butt by Andreas Hoffman and then said "that's not wing chun?"

Guess that was too formless for you to comprehend.

JPinAZ

01-04-2012, 01:24 PM

Wow, maybe you should lay off the meds Hendrik :rolleyes: WTF are you even talking about?
You don't have to look at MMA or anything else to see if WC is alive or dead. You only have to look at one's own level of success when trianing with and against live opponents. You can't 'see' it on a clip, you can't see it posting on forums and you can't get it babling on for 10 minutes at your kitchen table in a camera for youtube ;)
You can only see if WCK is alive or dead by actually doing it and testing it for yourself.

JPinAZ

01-04-2012, 01:29 PM

Hendrik

01-04-2012, 02:25 PM

Really? Weren't you the dude who got thrown on his butt by Andreas Hoffman and then said "that's not wing chun?"

Guess that was too formless for you to comprehend.

Isn't it strange that since decades ago some of the HFY people like yourself, and some vtm people always like to create some story to attack me out of the blue ?

Can you people focus on topic?
Or may be you people need to ask yourself what is your fear to lead you for your behavior?

After ten years, white crane of fujian connection has become a reality. Vtm has also switched to white crane Root. Snake in wing Chun also has become a reality. However, HFY still has not provide the evidence of HFY shaolin existence further then 1980.

So, I suggest you to clear up your own story on HFY WCK before create more story about me. which is a joke and got nothing to do with this thread.

Also,
Disregard of how good or bad my Kung fu, that is independent to what is happening in china and tcma. Evidence is the key. Can you provide solid evidence?

for those who is interested in monks and qing dynasty , here is the lecture from the chan patriarch Hsu Yun first hand on what is the facts on monks army..etc.

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1149309&postcount=1

Whatever exist has a trace can be tracked. History of china and the architecture tcma can be traced is bottom line.

Get back to topic.

Eric_H

01-04-2012, 02:43 PM

Isn't it strange that some of the HFY people like yourself, and some vtm people , the since 10 years ago always like to create some story try to attack me out of the blue?

Can you people focus on topic?
Or may be you people need to ask yourself what is your fear to lead you for your behavior?

After ten years, white crane of fujian connection has become a reality. Vtm has also switched to white crane Root. Snake in wing Chun also has become a reality. However, HFY still has not provide the evidence of HFY shaolin existence further then 1980.

So, I suggest you to clear up your own story on shao lin WCK before create more story about me.

Also,
Disregard of how good or bad my Kung fu, that is independent to what is happening in china and tcma. Evidence is the key.

for those who is interested in shaolin and qing dynasty , here is the lecture from the chan patriarch Hsu Yun first hand on what is the facts on monks army..etc.

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1149309&postcount=1

Whatever exist has a trace can be tracked. History of china and the architecture tcma can be traced is botticelli line.

Lol, Internet. U mad bro? :rolleyes:

Hendrik

01-04-2012, 02:53 PM

Lol, Internet. U mad bro? :rolleyes:

Why should I?
Facts are facts No matter how you twist them .

See for yourself on the purpose of frame in tcma by the true tcma expert.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DHyl8mg4Pg6o%26lis t%3DPL23C50A759ACF6A67%26index%3D1%26feature%3Dplp p_video&index=1&list=PL23C50A759ACF6A67&feature=plpp_video&v=Hyl8mg4Pg6o&gl=US

JPinAZ

01-04-2012, 03:02 PM

Why should I?
Facts are facts No matter how you twist them .

Temper temper Hendrik. Maybe you aren't doing your chi gung correctly, because It seems you are developing "health problem such as bad temper due to liver medirians issue....etc. long term practice is a suicide". Might want to watch that :eek:
And stop trying to make everything a HFY or VTM thing. If that is all you have to cry about, that is pretty sad.

The fact is, Chi Sim GM dumped you on your butt in front of many witnesses with you crying "That's not wing chun! That's not wing chun!". Big deal, his structure overcame your non-structure. Many people saw it, it's not made up. If you are lying about that not happening, what else are you lying about? But really, like you said, your skills (or lack of) doesn't matter. ;)

The topic is about chi gung excersizes in WC, not some made-up crane+snake=WC history you keep pushing on every thread. So, stop derailing this thread and try sticking to the topic as well.

anerlich

01-04-2012, 03:21 PM

I heard some where the WC chin gung can turn you into an super stud

Anecdotal evidence doesn't mean much, I know ... but it worked for me.

Vajramusti

01-04-2012, 03:24 PM

Anecdotal evidence doesn't mean much, I know ... but it worked for me.
------------------------------------------

LOL, ROFL

joy

JPinAZ

01-04-2012, 03:39 PM

Anecdotal evidence doesn't mean much, I know ... but it worked for me.

Now that's funny :)

Yoshiyahu

01-05-2012, 12:22 AM

What is the purpose of chi kung in wing chun? why does the wc chi gung have to wc body frame?

Yoshiyahu,

This may be none of my business, but you are seriously representing yourself as someone who either has a substance abuse or memory problem. Nobody has said "there is no WC Chi Gung" they have said "the chi gung you showed does not fit the WC body frame." There is certainly WC Chi Gung, there is Chi Gung that is not WC but has benefits which could help your body develop thus improving your WC. Nobody is arguing that here.

San Sik is a TEACHING FORMAT, teaching format doesn't change the material.

in the true TCMA, Neigong is a part of WCK. Qigong is a part of Neigong.

WCK is not a fix frame art as many think today. Fix frame art has not much use in the reality as all ancient TCMA knows. Frame is good to be used as a tool to develop some particular skill. after that the tool or frame is discard.

Qigong and Zen is to elevate the art to frameless.

Thus, the WCK Kuen kuit says "come accept, goes return, let go proceed forward, using silence to lead action" it says nothing about frame or structure.
That is because WCK is beyond structure and frame.

mistaken for WCK has to keep in a type of frame or structure is actually trap oneself within a hole.

the so called center line concept or triangle shape.. ....etc was introduced to help beginner, taking that as the ultimate is suicide. take a look at mma fight, none looks like that in the reality. and no one can frame the reality with a type of structure. that only happen in the movie.

an art which mold one into a fix frame has not much value in the reality of fighting. an art without develop the body and mind can never elevate the art beyond structure and frame and thus trap oneself and get outdated as soon as others come out with new way for fighting.

the surface of mma is a good thing to see if one's art is a fix frame dead art or a live art which could sustain the challenge without need to add in more and more applications which is not accord to the philosophy of the art. IE one could see lots of WCner go to practice BJJ but one would not see true Chen Taiji doing that.

good post i totally understand you!!!

I agree with Eric's comments. Are you even reading people's posts here or are you imbibing in the same stuff Hendrik is? :confused:

No one said Chi Gung isn't in WCK, at least I haven't. I've said that 3 times now, but you apparently chose to ignore it or can't comprehend it.

If you feel your tea cup chi gung excersize is part of WC, please join the conversation and feel free to explain how it supports a WC body method and structure.
In case you missed my question (second time asking), here it is: http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1151406&postcount=35

I personally dont Feel That Chi gung needs to follow the wing chun structure...its chi gung not WC forms or san sik or drills. I dont see why you would be using chi gung against a resisting opponent. I see chi gung as lifting weights, not as an application of fighting. True enough some Chi Gung in the forms can be innovated as fighting applications but they are really energy drills. ne way why would you need to use chi gung to fight with...

What is your definition of chi gung? Why do you practice it?

"do you think it doesn't follow the wing chun body frame? Why does it flow in the complete opposite direction of WC structure?", maybe you could answer why you think it does?

Or, how you feel this position can be useful in using structure when dealing with live energy against an opponent in your WCK?

Hendrik

01-05-2012, 12:50 AM

I personally dont Feel That Chi gung needs to follow the wing chun structure...its chi gung not WC forms or san sik or drills. I dont see why you would be using chi gung against a resisting opponent. I see chi gung as lifting weights, not as an application of fighting. True enough some Chi Gung in the forms can be innovated as fighting applications but they are really energy drills. ne way why would you need to use chi gung to fight with...

What is your definition of chi gung? Why do you practice it?

Qi gung is energy work, energy has no structure but support all structures.

The core of Real tcma ima qigong or internal art is dao follow nature. Nature is nature. Nature has no fix frame. One doesn't see water with fix shape.

Practice qigong without following nature is violating qigong practice.

Also, WCK doesn't have fix structure. Only abstract. Come accept ,goes send back ,let go move forward, using silence to lead action . Is the core. Take a look at Ipman WCK, koo lo WCK, chan wah WCK, these WCK from Leung jan but have different structures.

Yoshiyahu

01-05-2012, 12:53 AM

The core of Real tcma ima qigong or internal art is dao follow nature. Nature is nature. Nature has no fix frame. One doesn't see water with fix shape.

Practice qigong without following nature is violating qigong practice.

lol...so trying to fix it in set structure is wrong in your opinion?

Yoshiyahu

01-05-2012, 12:55 AM

No offense to you Hendrix...but i feel i may already agree with you on this subject!!!

So the Questions is:

What is the purpose of Chi Gung?

Hendrik

01-05-2012, 01:03 AM

lol...so trying to fix it in set structure is wrong in your opinion?

Lesson one of qigong practice : loose, silence , and nature. Violating these are looking for trouble, either screw up and damage the body or mind or both.

If one doesn't know this law. What to discuss?

anerlich

01-05-2012, 01:31 AM

No offense to you Hendrix

Need to lay off that Purple Haze, bro.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HObqZh_RTds

kentchang

01-05-2012, 02:01 AM

Also, WCK doesn't have fix structure. Only abstract. Come accept ,goes send back ,let go move forward, using silence to lead action . Is the core. Take a look at Ipman WCK, koo lo WCK, chan wah WCK, these WCK from Leung jan but have different structures.

You're stronger if you have good structure. If "WCK doesn't have fix structure." then, you don't need to learn SNT, CHUM KIU, BIU JEE!

Yoshiyahu

01-05-2012, 09:47 AM

Need to lay off that Purple Haze, bro.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HObqZh_RTds

who on earth do u got a video of my grand daddy jimmy boy.

ne way What is the purpose of Chi Gung?

YouKnowWho

01-05-2012, 09:49 AM

What is the purpose of Chi Gung?

So you will not breath hard in the middle of a fight. You will always reserve some air in your lung and you will never need a "deep inhale" in combat.

Eric_H

01-05-2012, 10:20 AM

who on earth do u got a video of my grand daddy jimmy boy.

ne way What is the purpose of Chi Gung?

Yoshiyahu,

Seriously man, you need to lay off the pipe/bottle/whatever. You start a many-page thread about Chi Gung, argue about what makes it WC or not WC and you don't even know what it's for?

As Ed Lover would say: C'mon Son.
http://www.entmoney.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/EdLover-CMonSon-Ep16.jpg

JPinAZ

01-05-2012, 11:34 AM

What is the purpose of chi kung in wing chun? why does the wc chi gung have to wc body frame?

Dude, you started the thread by showing what you feel is WC chi gung and it being a part of WC. Instead of asking everyone else, you should be telling us it's purpose for being in WC as you put it!!
I'm surprised you can't answer that yourself! (well, maybe I'm not as surprised after reading your threads for a while now)

I personally dont Feel That Chi gung needs to follow the wing chun structure...its chi gung not WC forms or san sik or drills. I dont see why you would be using chi gung against a resisting opponent. I see chi gung as lifting weights, not as an application of fighting. True enough some Chi Gung in the forms can be innovated as fighting applications but they are really energy drills. ne way why would you need to use chi gung to fight with...

Wow dude, make up your mind (or lay down the pipe). Are you talking Chi Gung in general or Chi Gung in WC, which BTW is the the title of your thread? Chi Gung by itself it for energy clutivation (among other things). By itself, it doesn't need to follow any structures and has many benifits - no one is arguing that. Why are you having such a hard time understanding this? Should we try another language or use simpler words or something? :rolleyes:

Look, you're the one that started this thread with your idea of what is 'WC Chi Gung'. Once you make Chi Gung an integral part of the WC system, it should be supportive of that system and it's primary goal should be for developing WCK energetics and structural usage under the system's primary principles. Otherwise, just treat it as general excersize like any other suplimental training that you do in addition to your WC training and stop mixing things together.

Bottom line, that excersize in your orignal post is not a part of WCK as most everyone knows it. It breaks some of the most basic fundamental principles of WCK and does not work in developing any real, usable WCK body methods or energetics and therefore does not fit 'within' the system. But that doesn't mean is still isn't without benifit. It's just not WCK

JPinAZ

01-05-2012, 11:34 AM

Yoshiyahu,

Seriously man, you need to lay off the pipe/bottle/whatever. You start a many-page thread about Chi Gung, argue about what makes it WC or not WC and you don't even know what it's for?

As Ed Lover would say: C'mon Son.
http://www.entmoney.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/EdLover-CMonSon-Ep16.jpg

haha, quoted for truth :D
This needs repeating

Yoshiyahu

01-05-2012, 12:29 PM

i disagree

Dude, you started the thread by showing what you feel is WC chi gung and it being a part of WC. Instead of asking everyone else, you should be telling us it's purpose for being in WC as you put it!!
I'm surprised you can't answer that yourself! (well, maybe I'm not as surprised after reading your threads for a while now)

Wow dude, make up your mind (or lay down the pipe). Are you talking Chi Gung in general or Chi Gung in WC, which BTW is the the title of your thread? Chi Gung by itself it for energy clutivation (among other things). By itself, it doesn't need to follow any structures and has many benifits - no one is arguing that. Why are you having such a hard time understanding this? Should we try another language or use simpler words or something? :rolleyes:

Look, you're the one that started this thread with your idea of what is 'WC Chi Gung'. Once you make Chi Gung an integral part of the WC system, it should be supportive of that system and it's primary goal should be for developing WCK energetics and structural usage under the system's primary principles. Otherwise, just treat it as general excersize like any other suplimental training that you do in addition to your WC training and stop mixing things together.

Bottom line, that excersize in your orignal post is not a part of WCK as most everyone knows it. It breaks some of the most basic fundamental principles of WCK and does not work in developing any real, usable WCK body methods or energetics and therefore does not fit 'within' the system. But that doesn't mean is still isn't without benifit. It's just not WCK

kentchang

01-05-2012, 12:52 PM

Once you make Chi Gung an integral part of the WC system, it should be supportive of that system and it's primary goal should be for developing WCK energetics and structural usage under the system's primary principles. Otherwise, just treat it as general excersize like any other suplimental training that you do in addition to your WC training and stop mixing things together.

Well said, I agree!

JPinAZ

01-05-2012, 03:34 PM

i disagree

I figured that much :rolleyes: And you are welcome to your opinion.
But, just to be clear that you even understood what I was saying, what parts did you disagree with? The part where you can't make up your mind what you're talking about?
Or that you can't answer the questions yourself? Or that you should put the pipe down?
I would ask you ask you to explain why you disagree, but you've already had 3 chances to explain yourself and have failed.

Just saying "I disagree" isn't saying anything at all. You say you are here to share, well, until you can give me a counterpoint of your own why you dissagree, the conversation is over.

YouKnowWho

01-05-2012, 06:03 PM

what parts did you disagree with?

Sometime when you express your opinion, people may say, "You are wrong". It may put you into a situation that you don't know whether you should response to that post or not. If you just ignore that post, nothing will happen. If you response to that post, people may say "You are wrong again". What will you do after that?

A: IMO, ...
B: You are wrong!
A: What I mean was ...
B: You are wrong again.
A: :confused:

JPinAZ

01-05-2012, 11:21 PM

What you quoted was a rhetorical question. Maybe next time, quote the rest of the thought so you keep the context. ;)
Btw, I could care less about being right or wrong. I am not here for that.

wtxs

01-06-2012, 12:09 PM

Yoshiyahu

01-06-2012, 12:30 PM

@ JPinAZ - Hey man, how is that IRON FOREHEAD training coming along? Figuring all that time and efforts you had banging away against the brick wall and all, :p that oughtta make for some nasty WC headbutts. :D

lol thats funny!!!

What you quoted was a rhetorical question. Maybe next time, quote the rest of the thought so you keep the context. ;)
Btw, I could care less about being right or wrong. I am not here for that.

I agree with this below...this is proving my point that Chi gung by it self doesn't need to follow any structures and has many benefits!!!

"Chi Gung by itself it for energy clutivation (among other things). By itself, it doesn't need to follow any structures and has many benifits - no one is arguing that."

Here is where we differ. I agree some Chi Gung exercises may be done in Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma. Most of which comes right out of SLT and CK. So I agree with that. But thats a small part of Chi Gung in Wing Chun. YGKYM is just a small subset of chi gung structure. You dont have to be in the wing chun horse to be doing wing chun chi gung. Nor do you have to be following on the hand motions from the forms of wing chun to be doing chi gung.

There is chi gung exercises which reinforce the structure and wc posture which is more related to Jing. An their is chi gung exercises which cultivates the chi and shen which doesn't follow the WC structure and WC posture. sitting down in half lotus meditating controlling your breathing is also wc chi gung. Standing still in no horse meditating on sinking your chi is also wing chun chi gung. It enhances your WC does it not? What I am sharing is what I learn from my sifu when it comes to wing chun. There are other chi gung drills he taught me like cloud hands, tai chi circle and others that are not apart of WC. The Tea cup however is apart of the WC...

Look, you're the one that started this thread with your idea of what is 'WC Chi Gung'. Once you make Chi Gung an integral part of the WC system, it should be supportive of that system and it's primary goal should be for developing WCK energetics and structural usage under the system's primary principles. Otherwise, just treat it as general excersize like any other suplimental training that you do in addition to your WC training and stop mixing things together.

The Exercises like the Tea cup I listed is apart of YKS WC curriculm. so i guess to those who practice that WC feel it is apart of the WC system. First of all the purpsose is to cleanse the bone marrow and stregnthed the kidneys. What makes something apart of WC system is the introduction of it into that System. Iron Sand Palm and darts are also apart of YKS system. Personally I dont practice either. But its still apart of it...BEcause it was introduced by YKS. What ever your sifu, sigung or wing chun ancestors bring into that art is essentially apart of that system. it becomes the system...this i disagree with...that since you feel it doesn't look linear enough its not wing chun....The body is not bound to a fix posistion. Nor is the cultivation of your chi!

Bottom line, that excersize in your orignal post is not a part of WCK as most everyone knows it. It breaks some of the most basic fundamental principles of WCK and does not work in developing any real, usable WCK body methods or energetics and therefore does not fit 'within' the system. But that doesn't mean is still isn't without benifit. It's just not WCK

Sometime when you express your opinion, people may say, "You are wrong". It may put you into a situation that you don't know whether you should response to that post or not. If you just ignore that post, nothing will happen. If you response to that post, people may say "You are wrong again". What will you do after that?

A: IMO, ...
B: You are wrong!
A: What I mean was ...
B: You are wrong again.
A: :confused:

gosh darn it...did he just prove your point with the post above!!!

JPinAZ

01-06-2012, 03:43 PM

@ JPinAZ - Hey man, how is that IRON FOREHEAD training coming along? Figuring all that time and efforts you had banging away against the brick wall and all, :p that oughtta make for some nasty WC headbutts. :D

haha, yeah, it's cool. I know he's not going to get it, but then, I don't really post here for his benifit. I'm hoping someone else can get something out of it, or present me with a good opinion that differs from mine so I might learn something too ;)

JPinAZ

01-06-2012, 04:28 PM

I'll reply only because you are actually attempting to give your own POV and not yelling :rolleyes:

Here is where we differ. I agree some Chi Gung exercises may be done in Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma. Most of which comes right out of SLT and CK. So I agree with that. But thats a small part of Chi Gung in Wing Chun. YGKYM is just a small subset of chi gung structure. You dont have to be in the wing chun horse to be doing wing chun chi gung. Nor do you have to be following on the hand motions from the forms of wing chun to be doing chi gung.

Who said anything about WCK chi gung only being done in YGKYM? Why can't you just read what people write instead of making up stuff to prove your points?
And who said "you have to following on the hand motions from the forms of wing chun to be doing chi gung"? Please provide a quote.

Regardless, if you are not using WCK body methods in chi gung, most likely what you are doing is not really a part of WCK system. Body methods being used in chi gung means more than just post standing in YJKYK or doing forms btw.

Example: In HFY we have jiam jong training. The first part of this, yes, you are YJKMY. The beginning focus is on heaven human and earth hand postured and breathing. Later, the focus is on faat ging training of various wck hand methods for using in gate defense as well as overal ging energy training. And in soe of this sequence, the horse does move.

Example: We also have keung jong/dip gwat gung SLT training. this works on breathing, but also bone grinding energy along with development for muscles and tendons. There is some footwork as well as multiple hand methods.
BUT, at ALL TIMES, you are using proper spine alignment, structural considerations, tools, footwork and energetics that are directly suportive of WCK principles and theories. No bending over backwards with your hand behind your head. That IMO, is NOT WCK. If you feel it is, please show me one WCK clip of anyone using that position to defend against a live energy attack. Heck, it doesn't even have to be WCK ;)

There is chi gung exercises which reinforce the structure and wc posture which is more related to Jing.

So I better understand you, please explain some of these for me as I have done for you.

An their is chi gung exercises which cultivates the chi and shen which doesn't follow the WC structure and WC posture.

Yes, and they are most likely clearly seen in another TCMA system and not WCK. So maybe, just maybe, they aren't really a part of WCK system but just some teachers prefered suplimental training he gave to a student for further developments.

sitting down in half lotus meditating controlling your breathing is also wc chi gung.

Actually, this is pretty common chi gung taught in abundance and not really WCK specific. You could also add swimming to WCK training/curriculm, but that doesn't mean it's a part of the WCK system.

Standing still in no horse meditating on sinking your chi is also wing chun chi gung. It enhances your WC does it not?

I don't know, does it? And if so, how?

What I am sharing is what I learn from my sifu when it comes to wing chun. There are other chi gung drills he taught me like cloud hands, tai chi circle and others that are not apart of WC. The Tea cup however is apart of the WC...

Why then is that tea cup excersize seen so often as not part of WC as the others you listed? What EXACTLY makes that excersize WC chi gung while the others aren't beside your sifu telling you it is? Can you explain, as I have to you, in your own words and experience why it is but cloud hands is not?
I appreciate that this is what your sifu taught you, but I've always been taught to be able to speak from my own experiences and reasoning and not to just trust "what sifu says".

BTW, who is your sifu? Is he the black gentleman from St. Luois that has videos on youtube training in his backyard?

The Exercises like the Tea cup I listed is apart of YKS WC curriculm. so i guess to those who practice that WC feel it is apart of the WC system.

Ok, now you are saying what I've been trying to get thru to you for days now! My point is, the curriculm is NOT the system:
If someone added some excersize from another art to the WC curriculm, that doesn't make it part of WC system. WC system is the the principles/concepts/theories. It is not the drills, excersizes, etc. The only way it could be 'part of the system' is if it still works under those guidlines. Anything else, and it's not WC system.
This tea cup excersize does not fit those parameters. So ok, it's part of your curriculm - your training regiment. Swimming could be in there too. but again, that is not the system.

What makes something apart of WC system is the introduction of it into that System.

Wrong. By that logic, why couldn't you add cloud hands, or tai chi circle, or even spinning back kicks or back handsprings to WC and call it part of the system?

Maybe the probelm is our definitions of WC system and WC curriculm. Could you please give me your definition?

Iron Sand Palm and darts are also apart of YKS system. Personally I dont practice either. But its still apart of it...BEcause it was introduced by YKS. What ever your sifu, sigung or wing chun ancestors bring into that art is essentially apart of that system. it becomes the system...this i disagree with...that since you feel it doesn't look linear enough its not wing chun....The body is not bound to a fix posistion. Nor is the cultivation of your chi!.

Now we're getting to the meat of it, and again your logic is completely flawed.

People can add whatever they want. There are no rules for what you can or can't do, add or take away. But if someone adds a side rolling running jumping front flip kick of doom to thier list of technique and it breaks WCK principles, sorry pal, it's not WC. But, if you add a technique and it still works within the original concepts, body methods and & framework, then you're still doing WCK!
Because again, the system isn't the technique.

Runlikehell

01-06-2012, 05:31 PM

Iron Sand Palm and darts are also apart of YKS system. Personally I dont practice either. But its still apart of it...BEcause it was introduced by YKS. What ever your sifu, sigung or wing chun ancestors bring into that art is essentially apart of that system. it becomes the system...this i disagree with...that since you feel it doesn't look linear enough its not wing chun....The body is not bound to a fix posistion. Nor is the cultivation of your chi!

With all due respect, the darts are said to be lost. GM Sum Nung had apparently said his skill with them could not compare to that of his Sifu, so he either did not finish learning them or did not keep them as part of the curriculum.

I will say no more, as the topic will no doubt deviate.

Phil Redmond

01-06-2012, 05:38 PM

Yes, my WC does have Chi Gung.

Yoshiyahu

01-06-2012, 06:34 PM

With all due respect, the darts are said to be lost. GM Sum Nung had apparently said his skill with them could not compare to that of his Sifu, so he either did not finish learning them or did not keep them as part of the curriculum.

I will say no more, as the topic will no doubt deviate.

lol...really? wow thats pretty funny!!! you know what darts are right?

Theres not a blasted form for darts...Its like if a system has bow and arrow in it or a gun for that matter. It wont be special Wing chun way to use them...you use darts and practice them as you would any darts!!!

Yoshiyahu

01-06-2012, 07:06 PM

I'll reply only because you are actually attempting to give your own POV and not yelling :rolleyes:[/QOUTE]

WHEN DO I YELL? lol

[QUOTE]Who said anything about WCK chi gung only being done in YGKYM? Why can't you just read what people write instead of making up stuff to prove your points?
And who said "you have to following on the hand motions from the forms of wing chun to be doing chi gung"? Please provide a quote.

What do you mean by hand motions from the forms? is that the only hand motions you do for chi gung? what about hand motions not found in the forms can those be wing chun chi gung?

Regardless, if you are not using WCK body methods in chi gung, most likely what you are doing is not really a part of WCK system. Body methods being used in chi gung means more than just post standing in YJKYK or doing forms btw.

Please share some videos of what you call WC chi gung?

Example: In HFY we have jiam jong training. The first part of this, yes, you are YJKMY. The beginning focus is on heaven human and earth hand postured and breathing. Later, the focus is on faat ging training of various wck hand methods for using in gate defense as well as overal ging energy training. And in soe of this sequence, the horse does move.

Can you provide some video links of this?

Example: We also have keung jong/dip gwat gung SLT training. this works on breathing, but also bone grinding energy along with development for muscles and tendons. There is some footwork as well as multiple hand methods.
BUT, at ALL TIMES, you are using proper spine alignment, structural considerations, tools, footwork and energetics that are directly suportive of WCK principles and theories. No bending over backwards with your hand behind your head. That IMO, is NOT WCK. If you feel it is, please show me one WCK clip of anyone using that position to defend against a live energy attack. Heck, it doesn't even have to be WCK ;)

Its not for combat or defending or attacking...The chi gung is for healing, cultivation and open meridians. I think your looking for martial application. I have to agree with you. You will not fight that way with the chi gung!!!

So I better understand you, please explain some of these for me as I have done for you.

I will break it down in another post after i responded too all your messages!

Yes, and they are most likely clearly seen in another TCMA system and not WCK. So maybe, just maybe, they aren't really a part of WCK system but just some teachers prefered suplimental training he gave to a student for further developments.

So if a system has been handing something down for fifty years or more is apart of that WC system?

Actually, this is pretty common chi gung taught in abundance and not really WCK specific. You could also add swimming to WCK training/curriculm, but that doesn't mean it's a part of the WCK system.

I agree that some chi gung overlaps in multiple arts...But where does chi gung originate from...From Shaolin...ne way thats another topic...but ne way...if something is incorporated into the WC system by a grand master...it is now wing chun!

I don't know, does it? And if so, how?

The long pole was added to WC by a non-wc sifu. Someone taught a WC disciple the long pole. He taught his Sifu and thus it became apart of system...so why cant Chi Gung be apart of it too! Again chi gung is develop chi not jing/ging. Ging you hit or strike with...chi is something different all together...Its no such thing as fachi...but there is fajing...the explosive power is your jing not your chi....chi is energy, jing is the power...chi is like blood, jing is like the nutrients...the nutrients in your blood helps your body grow...the blood carries the nutrients and oxygen through out your body. Jing is carried by chi..You develop chi by chi gung and shen through meditation and proper chi gung.

chi gung doesn't need to obey slt or any other form...it does have a certain body mechnics to it...if you look at single hoof technique what do you see happening?

Why then is that tea cup excersize seen so often as not part of WC as the others you listed? What EXACTLY makes that excersize WC chi gung while the others aren't beside your sifu telling you it is? Can you explain, as I have to you, in your own words and experience why it is but cloud hands is not?
I appreciate that this is what your sifu taught you, but I've always been taught to be able to speak from my own experiences and reasoning and not to just trust "what sifu says".

i agree i will share what and why in a second

BTW, who is your sifu? Is he the black gentleman from St. Luois that has videos on youtube training in his backyard?

actually No...he is a friend and my older brother "Sihing". His teacher was different than mines...His training was different also.

my teacher was much more into chi cultivation, softness, and flow. These are somethings he dwelled on...My teacher doesn't have any videos up on youtube...His teacher does...but his teacher has changed the WC system he taught over 25 years ago and now its a mixture of choy li fut and wc! His name is Robert Lee McField. My teacher name is Wilbert Smith.

Ok, now you are saying what I've been trying to get thru to you for days now! My point is, the curriculm is NOT the system:

If someone added some excersize from another art to the WC curriculm, that doesn't make it part of WC system. WC system is the the principles/concepts/theories. It is not the drills, excersizes, etc. The only way it could be 'part of the system' is if it still works under those guidlines. Anything else, and it's not WC system.
This tea cup excersize does not fit those parameters. So ok, it's part of your curriculm - your training regiment. Swimming could be in there too. but again, that is not the system.

Okay well i will say its apart of my wing chun system...When i have kids an teach them it will be apart of their wing chun system too!

Wrong. By that logic, why couldn't you add cloud hands, or tai chi circle, or even spinning back kicks or back handsprings to WC and call it part of the system?

Some have added that to WC systems of other lineages...i dont know about cloud hands...But there is a variation of cloud hands in the WC systems in mainland china...i have seen videos way back of them...i cant find as of the date...but they are not tai chi cloud hands at all..they are more like chi sau jau sau. or running hands done with out a partner...They go into two directions...one is inside gum sau and the other outside like tan sau
Maybe the probelm is our definitions of WC system and WC curriculm. Could you please give me your definition?

The WC system - is the culmination of all the techniques, drills, exercises, kungs(strenght building exercises), sparring, forms, weapons, and anything else taught to you to enhance your wing chun...

Now we're getting to the meat of it, and again your logic is completely flawed.

People can add whatever they want. There are no rules for what you can or can't do, add or take away. But if someone adds a side rolling running jumping front flip kick of doom to thier list of technique and it breaks WCK principles, sorry pal, it's not WC. But, if you add a technique and it still works within the original concepts, body methods and & framework, then you're still doing WCK!
Because again, the system isn't the technique.

WC doesnt bob and weave...atleast my lineage doesn't...but some WC sifus have added bobbing and weaving, sticking and moving, round house kicks, high kicks, i believe william cheung even has a jump in one of weapon forms...some people even have a ducking move!

Yoshiyahu

01-06-2012, 07:24 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJe7k4vlFvg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGrLeLyEMkE&feature=related

these videos are various chi gung methods YKS sifus teach...

I will break down the chi gung purpose an methods later when i list them!!!

First off let me break down the chi gung in YKS sumnung WC he added to the System!

when i say system...I mean YKS wing chun system...Not Yip Man, Not Ip Chun, Not Kulo, Not Yik Kam, Not ne Phillip Bayer!

Now as for where the chi gung comes from:

The kidney breathing exercises are rumored to have come originally from the Emei mountain temples of Sichuan province

Second before i begin read this qoute:

Wing chun hei gung (qigong, breathing/intrinsic energy work) is not a singular phenomenon. Different branches of wing chun kuen, as may be expected, view hei gung and its training in different ways. Some, like the Sum Nung branch have forms in addition to the usual boxing, dummy, and weapons sets to train hei gung. Others prefer to focus exclusively on the sets and see no need for separate hei gung forms. Neither approach is in and of itself better then the other, but by knowing the differences, practitioners can make up their own mind, based on their own needs.

the chi gung is different that WC structure? why is that read this qoute:

Why, then, are there separate hei gung forms in some branches? Simply because, to achieve its great results as a martial art, wing chun makes use of certain specific body structure ideas and methods of motion. The kidney breathing exercises give the practitioner a way to step outside this model and perform movements not contained in the forms, but desirable from a hei gung standpoint. It also means a practitioner does not have to alter the structure nor sacrifice the reflexes they develop within the forms simply to gain some extra hei gung benefit.

A form of yit gan (yi jin, tendon changing), the kidney breathing exercises put a practitioner through a good range of motion in order to improve health. In terms of martial benefit, it is know that when Sum Nung trained the exercises, he achieved a form of body resilience.

His Chi gung is way different than WC body Structure!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOICLCX7YRw

William cheung does a jumping leap...is that WC system?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ke06luhv_nU

Runlikehell

01-06-2012, 07:25 PM

lol...really? wow thats pretty funny!!! you know what darts are right?

Theres not a blasted form for darts...Its like if a system has bow and arrow in it or a gun for that matter. It wont be special Wing chun way to use them...you use darts and practice them as you would any darts!!!

Did I ever say that Fung Siu Ching, Yuen Kay San or Sum Nung created a form for the darts? No.

Of course I know what darts are. I was just relaying what I'd heard. Doesn't mean that they couldn't have been added back in along the line, or taught as a supplement.

Once again, I don't want to divert the thread so I'll say no more.

Yoshiyahu

01-06-2012, 07:35 PM

Did I ever say that Fung Siu Ching, Yuen Kay San or Sum Nung created a form for the darts? No.

Of course I know what darts are. I was just relaying what I'd heard. Doesn't mean that they couldn't have been added back in along the line, or taught as a supplement.

Once again, I don't want to divert the thread so I'll say no more.

okay thanks for your opinion!

Yoshiyahu

01-06-2012, 07:58 PM

Chi Gung In YKS wing chun system!!!

Now different branches of YKS do different forms of Chi gung...but i will give a few of the ones that are publically known...I also have other chi gung taught to me by sifu that is not listed on here...but some of them look similiar to what hendrik does!

Rising arms - stretches out the entire body...beginner level...you stretch the back muscles and straighten the spine, allow blood flow and oxygen to be release from stagnate places. Muslces and bones are massaged and relaxed like accupressure and chiropratic correction. Your hands, neck, feet, shins, thighs, knees,back, chest, stomach,wrist, fingers, and elbows are affected...advance level you open the meridians. send chi up and down the spine from the lower dan tian to the upper dan tian...chi flows through both the conceptual and governing meridan. It promotes an increase flow of chi and realease stagnantion of chi. Mind, and spirit relaxes. Its like accupucnture relieveing blockage and healing you.

Side-to-side waist turns the hips and torso Opens the wasit and hips, sides, and pelvic. It massages and stimulates the lower dan tian. beginner level hips, shoulders, lower back and neck are stretched and relieved. advanced level chi stagnation and bloackage is release. chi flows and is release from the lower dan tian. The kidneys are restored and exercised.

Single hoof or tea cup - i practice it two ways inside out and outside in...

I will discuss outside in...One hand comes out similiar to Tan Sau. as it goes out an swings the shoulder is open...see phil redmond site for pressure points charts. The motion of the arm swinging out opens up the right and left arm meridians. on beginner level your muscles and bones are exercises. opening up the shoulder blade, the shoulder and the upper back and neck. Also the arm it self is rejuvenated. as the hand passes over your head your back goes backwards..the bending is a strecthing and opening of the meridians. in beginner stage your back muslces should release and or pop if your tight there. This rejuvenantes the body from holding the curl or convex body structure. even if you dont utilize the curl there is still some muscle tighting from the pelvic being tilted in. this allows you open up the back meridians another way and allow more chi to flow. as the hand comes to your side an turns in like a huen sau you are working and exercising the wrist...of course you can practice huen sau technique over and over again. But this exercise gives you a wide range of motions on both sides opeing up the meridians...

Expanding chest - opens the chest and back. You will feel your back muslces collaspe in and your chest strecthes outward. In beginner stage your back or chest will pop and muscles will release...in advance stages you will chi stagnation points be relieved and feel the energy traveling through your meridians. Afterwards depending on your level you will feel relieved in those areas...either energized or ready to rest!

Yoshiyahu

01-07-2012, 12:59 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NI0i5eulDUc

time stamp 0:03 arms rising up opens the arms up and the shoulders and upper back and shoulder blades up. the meridians in the chest are open too as well sending chi down the arms to the fingers tips. the arms going down sends the chi back down to dan tian and sinks the chi and your root!

time stamp 0:31 there are alot of things this is doing from cycling the chi from the two dan tians middle and lower. but when you do it hundred times or more you begin to feel your hands getting heavier. You feel the meridans in your forearms open up. You feel tingle, sparks and eventually it feels like waves of energy puslating through your hands, fingers and arms and elbow. Your entire Arm also consider the hand or palm in chinese thought begins to feel harder and conditioned...it is filled with energy and chi...this practice also deals with the lower dan tian below your navel and affects the spot directly corresponding in your back!

of course his stuff doesnt coincide with your idea of wing chun structure right?

Runlikehell

01-07-2012, 01:05 AM

Thanks for the clip. :)

Phil Redmond

01-07-2012, 01:48 AM

Wow, does that mean if I do my Salsa slowly then I am doing Qi Gong and it would benefit my health and make my Wing Chun stronger? :D
Slow Salsa?????? :confused:

Phil Redmond

01-07-2012, 01:50 AM

William cheung does a jumping leap...is that WC system?
Some Chinese MA systems will go to the ground and swing at your ankles with a sword, pole, leung tiu kwan, etc.
So would you simply stand there and get your ankles slashed? :rolleyes:

Yoshiyahu

01-07-2012, 01:52 AM

Thanks for the clip. :)

yes the last one is hendrik clip i was just using it as a reference!

JPinAZ

01-07-2012, 08:43 AM

Well Yoshi, If nothing else, I appreciate your finally trying to give me your take on things. Since I think we are never going to get on the same page on this, I'm just going to make my comments in general instead of commenting back line-by-line.

I think one of our major disconnects is that you feel anything and everything can be WCK, all you have to do is have a title of 'sifu' or 'grandmaster' add it to the system, stamp it WCK and you're done. :confused:

IMO, you can do that ONLY if it still works within the framework of the system's principles concepts where you don't feel this is necessary. Clearly our understanding of what is the 'WCK system' are 2 very different things.

Another disconnect: the difference between the curriculum and the system itself. Obviously you are not making a distinction between the 2. Again, that's fine if it works for you, but our understanding on these topics is too different to speak on any common ground.

(BTW, I've seen several instances where people have appointed themselves the title Grandmaster literally over night. While there are some I feel have earned the respect through years of teaching to be called that, just because someone puts GM in front of their name doesn't mean they have a clue about what they are doing. But that's another topic)

Now I'm beginning to get a better understanding about why people say WCK has such a bad rep among the rest of the MA's community. And why people say a lot of WCK being taught today is a shell of what it once was - too many people all doing their own thing adding/subtracting and losing the actual WCK identity. Again, I have no problem with people doing whatever they want, but why not just call it what it is?

As far as chi gung only being for healing and cultivation and not for combat, we totally disagree here too. I do agree chi gung is for healing & cultivation. And that is surely one side of it, and an important one. And, surely people can focus only on that side. But, when it is integrated as part of a martial system, it most surely can have direct benefit for martial application. To think it can't is just silly and frankly, uneducated.

So if a system has been handing something down for fifty years or more is apart of that WC system?

No, not necessarily. Maybe it's just a version of that lineages curriculum, but IMO the system itself is already complete. Once you start adding or taking away from the actual 'system' and moving away from it's principles/concepts, you are changing its nature and thus the art itself. But, I'm repeating myself here. Clearly, you and I are on 2 different planets in this thinking ;)

My advice would be to look up the definitions for curriculum and system frist before going further with this discussion. Or amybe define the 2 for me from a WCK pov..

actually No...he is a friend and my older brother "Sihing". His teacher was different than mines...His training was different also.

my teacher was much more into chi cultivation, softness, and flow. These are somethings he dwelled on...My teacher doesn't have any videos up on youtube...His teacher does...but his teacher has changed the WC system he taught over 25 years ago and now its a mixture of choy li fut and wc! His name is Robert Lee McField. My teacher name is Wilbert Smith.

If I understand correctly, your sifu, Wilbert Smith, learned from McField, who 25 years ago mixed a bunch of stuff into his WCK? Ok, now I'm getting a clearer picture.

Isn't this guy was from YKS too? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVXH9f1WMbY

I thought I remember a year or so back you telling us this is part of your training group. Is this not similar to your WCK and how you train?

WC doesnt bob and weave...atleast my lineage doesn't...but some WC sifus have added bobbing and weaving, sticking and moving, round house kicks, high kicks, [snip]...some people even have a ducking move![/QUOTE]

And some add tea cup chi gung sets. Yeah, it's amazing what people call WCK these days :eek::(:D

-------
Regarding videos: No, I do not have any videos of the chi gung trainig I am speaking of. Actually, some of this is described in the Mastering Kung Fu book, and I think we had an article on some of this as well. To date, HFY has not released any official videos. But, that will be changing this year! I'm not sure we will film our chi gung training, but we will be showing our HFY SNT shortly, along with some other promotional videos.

JPinAZ

01-07-2012, 08:45 AM

Some Chinese MA systems will go to the ground and swing at your ankles with a sword, pole, leung tiu kwan, etc.
So would you simply stand there and get your ankles slashed? :rolleyes:

Haha, Phil, it sounds like a fun time to me too! :rolleyes:

Yoshiyahu

01-07-2012, 11:11 AM

Well we wont agree your right...

McField didnt add the tea cup nor did Mau Chang...The Tea cup and other chi gung drills was added by Sum Nung...

As for Stan I did mention him in another post I wrote you more than one Post my friend....

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1152089&postcount=81

I will say there is a difference between Jing and Chi...Jing is for fighting with...although there are chi gung sets that deal with fighting applications..an of course the chi gung set could be use in a fighting application if you modify the techniques. and the chi gung set does increase certain abililites...But directly its not for fighting...

Hendrik does an exercises where he rises on his toes? If you can illustrate Jipnaz how that technique directly translates into fighting...im saying modify it i mean directly as is...i will beleive you!!!

Did you read this post two 80 and 81?

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1152061&postcount=80

i stated why i call it apart of system...I will rephrase...the YKS system!

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1152055&postcount=77

I mention Kung Fu Stan in an earlier Post,,,,,besides he doesn't practice the WC chi gung...He practices 18 figure tai chi! He has been doing Tai Chi for over 15 years! Wing Chun even longer!!!! But if you like to speak about him...He only accepts people who wishes to spar!

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1152052&postcount=76

Well Yoshi, If nothing else, I appreciate your finally trying to give me your take on things. Since I think we are never going to get on the same page on this, I'm just going to make my comments in general instead of commenting back line-by-line.

I think one of our major disconnects is that you feel anything and everything can be WCK, all you have to do is have a title of 'sifu' or 'grandmaster' add it to the system, stamp it WCK and you're done. :confused:

IMO, you can do that ONLY if it still works within the framework of the system's principles concepts where you don't feel this is necessary. Clearly our understanding of what is the 'WCK system' are 2 very different things.

Another disconnect: the difference between the curriculum and the system itself. Obviously you are not making a distinction between the 2. Again, that's fine if it works for you, but our understanding on these topics is too different to speak on any common ground.

(BTW, I've seen several instances where people have appointed themselves the title Grandmaster literally over night. While there are some I feel have earned the respect through years of teaching to be called that, just because someone puts GM in front of their name doesn't mean they have a clue about what they are doing. But that's another topic)

Now I'm beginning to get a better understanding about why people say WCK has such a bad rep among the rest of the MA's community. And why people say a lot of WCK being taught today is a shell of what it once was - too many people all doing their own thing adding/subtracting and losing the actual WCK identity. Again, I have no problem with people doing whatever they want, but why not just call it what it is?

As far as chi gung only being for healing and cultivation and not for combat, we totally disagree here too. I do agree chi gung is for healing & cultivation. And that is surely one side of it, and an important one. And, surely people can focus only on that side. But, when it is integrated as part of a martial system, it most surely can have direct benefit for martial application. To think it can't is just silly and frankly, uneducated.

So if a system has been handing something down for fifty years or more is apart of that WC system?

No, not necessarily. Maybe it's just a version of that lineages curriculum, but IMO the system itself is already complete. Once you start adding or taking away from the actual 'system' and moving away from it's principles/concepts, you are changing its nature and thus the art itself. But, I'm repeating myself here. Clearly, you and I are on 2 different planets in this thinking ;)

My advice would be to look up the definitions for curriculum and system frist before going further with this discussion. Or amybe define the 2 for me from a WCK pov..

actually No...he is a friend and my older brother "Sihing". His teacher was different than mines...His training was different also.

my teacher was much more into chi cultivation, softness, and flow. These are somethings he dwelled on...My teacher doesn't have any videos up on youtube...His teacher does...but his teacher has changed the WC system he taught over 25 years ago and now its a mixture of choy li fut and wc! His name is Robert Lee McField. My teacher name is Wilbert Smith.

If I understand correctly, your sifu, Wilbert Smith, learned from McField, who 25 years ago mixed a bunch of stuff into his WCK? Ok, now I'm getting a clearer picture.

Isn't this guy was from YKS too? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVXH9f1WMbY

I thought I remember a year or so back you telling us this is part of your training group. Is this not similar to your WCK and how you train?

WC doesnt bob and weave...atleast my lineage doesn't...but some WC sifus have added bobbing and weaving, sticking and moving, round house kicks, high kicks, [snip]...some people even have a ducking move!

And some add tea cup chi gung sets. Yeah, it's amazing what people call WCK these days :eek::(:D

-------
Regarding videos: No, I do not have any videos of the chi gung trainig I am speaking of. Actually, some of this is described in the Mastering Kung Fu book, and I think we had an article on some of this as well. To date, HFY has not released any official videos. But, that will be changing this year! I'm not sure we will film our chi gung training, but we will be showing our HFY SNT shortly, along with some other promotional videos.[/QUOTE]

JPinAZ

01-07-2012, 04:47 PM

Since you really didn't answer, I'll wait for an actual answer to these questions before going any further with you:

1. Isn't this guy (Kung Fu Stan as you call him) from YKS too? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVXH9f1WMbY

2. Since you both are from S.L. and training YKS, is what he does in his clips similar to what and how you train?

3. Read this carefully, because I'm not talking about something you posted in the past couple of days: I thought I remember a year or so back you telling us (in a conversation with Terrence) that this is part of your training group. So, do you train with him? If not, is this not similar to your WCK and how you train?

---
Don't ask me to explain anything Hendrik says or does. I have no clue why he does or says the thing he does. Really, I don't see him as being an actual WCK 'practitioner' and he is clearly either over-medicated, under-medicated or simply in need of a straight jacket. I say 'practitioner' because IMO, you need to actually PRACTICE or be able to use WCK to be one.

Yoshiyahu

01-08-2012, 12:15 AM

Fair enough...Stan is my Sihing...His teacher is different than mines. over the last year or two i have had a chance to train with him a little...the way he trains is different than the way i was taught but their are similiarites. For instance the san sik or punch form as he calls it is the same. We have the same basic. The forms are the same too...in addition to that he has showed me a few extra forms such as fighting drill and chi gung exercise to build jing as he learned it from McField at the bequest of his sifu. His Sifu is Mr.Bernsied. I think i spelled his name wrong...my sifu is Mr.Smith. His Wing Chun is different than mines and his training too...My Sifu emphasizes different aspects than he does...But yet and still one would have to touch hands with stan to actually judge his fighting prowess.

We do not have group persay. Me and another guy learn from Mr. Smith. Who now teaches Tai Chi and Baguazhang. Stan is big wing chun brother who i have the upmost respect for. The San Sik is the same the forms are similiar. I think anyone interested in fighting with wing chun can learn alot from stan since his WC is tried and tested from actual fighting not just sparring!

I have trained with Stan and his Son on numerous occasions in the past. Even practiced on wooden dummy, wall bag, heavy bag and long pole.

He is YKS too. His Sifu also taught him some of the Yip Man system too. Like the three forms and dan chi sau.

Have i answered your questions to sastifaction right now?

Since you really didn't answer, I'll wait for an actual answer to these questions before going any further with you:

1. Isn't this guy (Kung Fu Stan as you call him) from YKS too? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVXH9f1WMbY

2. Since you both are from S.L. and training YKS, is what he does in his clips similar to what and how you train?

3. Read this carefully, because I'm not talking about something you posted in the past couple of days: I thought I remember a year or so back you telling us (in a conversation with Terrence) that this is part of your training group. So, do you train with him? If not, is this not similar to your WCK and how you train?

---
Don't ask me to explain anything Hendrik says or does. I have no clue why he does or says the thing he does. Really, I don't see him as being an actual WCK 'practitioner' and he is clearly either over-medicated, under-medicated or simply in need of a straight jacket. I say 'practitioner' because IMO, you need to actually PRACTICE or be able to use WCK to be one.

JPinAZ

01-08-2012, 12:38 PM

Have i answered your questions to sastifaction right now?

Ignoring the poor attempt at sarcasm ;), yes for the most part.
Since I do not have personal experience with YKS, I was hoping you could share some of your insight with me regarding the drills, forms and yours and stan's training. I will use his clips as a reference since you are both YKS, come from the same WC family and train together.

You said:

Stan is big wing chun brother who i have the upmost respect for. The San Sik is the same the forms are similiar. I think anyone interested in fighting with wing chun can learn alot from stan since his WC is tried and tested from actual fighting not just sparring!

Honestly, I'm a little surprised you say this. Would you then say this is a good representation of his skill in YKS WCK and do they represent YKS WC drills and training well? And please explain why. Thanks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVXH9f1WMbY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtkaSNBK6D8&list=UUlokgXUBs0jKwRFcELOAHDA&index=1&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVXH9f1WMbY&feature=autoplay&list=UUlokgXUBs0jKwRFcELOAHDA&lf=plcp&playnext=1

Is this how you train YKS WC? If so/not please explain why.

Lastly, here are 2 clips of his YKS SLT. Can you give me any feedback on this? Is this a good representation of YKS forms and Stans skills?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsEbu8weiDQ&list=UUlokgXUBs0jKwRFcELOAHDA&index=9&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybN8e_bzlJY&list=UUlokgXUBs0jKwRFcELOAHDA&index=10&feature=plcp

Side question, How is Stan your sihing if you have different teachers? Sihing means older kung fu brother, which means you both have to have the same teacher.

k gledhill

01-08-2012, 04:54 PM

Ignoring the poor attempt at sarcasm ;), yes for the most part.
Since I do not have personal experience with YKS, I was hoping you could share some of your insight with me regarding the drills, forms and yours and stan's training. I will use his clips as a reference since you are both YKS, come from the same WC family and train together.

You said:

Honestly, I'm a little surprised you say this. Would you then say this is a good representation of his skill in YKS WCK and do they represent YKS WC drills and training well? And please explain why. Thanks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVXH9f1WMbY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtkaSNBK6D8&list=UUlokgXUBs0jKwRFcELOAHDA&index=1&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVXH9f1WMbY&feature=autoplay&list=UUlokgXUBs0jKwRFcELOAHDA&lf=plcp&playnext=1

Is this how you train YKS WC? If so/not please explain why.

Lastly, here are 2 clips of his YKS SLT. Can you give me any feedback on this? Is this a good representation of YKS forms and Stans skills?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsEbu8weiDQ&list=UUlokgXUBs0jKwRFcELOAHDA&index=9&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybN8e_bzlJY&list=UUlokgXUBs0jKwRFcELOAHDA&index=10&feature=plcp

Side question, How is Stan your sihing if you have different teachers? Sihing means older kung fu brother, which means you both have to have the same teacher.

Yoshiyahu is one of the guys in the clips ?

Yoshiyahu

01-08-2012, 07:56 PM

Yoshiyahu is one of the guys in the clips ?

No actually that is kung fu stan and his Son....

i met his son a couple of times...he was just beginning WC at that time...he has the fist form and some drills...I wont make mention is his SLT because he just learn the form when he did the video!

Ignoring the poor attempt at sarcasm ;), yes for the most part.
Since I do not have personal experience with YKS, I was hoping you could share some of your insight with me regarding the drills, forms and yours and stan's training. I will use his clips as a reference since you are both YKS, come from the same WC family and train together.

You said:

Honestly, I'm a little surprised you say this. Would you then say this is a good representation of his skill in YKS WCK and do they represent YKS WC drills and training well? And please explain why. Thanks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVXH9f1WMbY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtkaSNBK6D8&list=UUlokgXUBs0jKwRFcELOAHDA&index=1&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVXH9f1WMbY&feature=autoplay&list=UUlokgXUBs0jKwRFcELOAHDA&lf=plcp&playnext=1

Is this how you train YKS WC? If so/not please explain why.

Lastly, here are 2 clips of his YKS SLT. Can you give me any feedback on this? Is this a good representation of YKS forms and Stans skills?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsEbu8weiDQ&list=UUlokgXUBs0jKwRFcELOAHDA&index=9&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybN8e_bzlJY&list=UUlokgXUBs0jKwRFcELOAHDA&index=10&feature=plcp

Side question, How is Stan your sihing if you have different teachers? Sihing means older kung fu brother, which means you both have to have the same teacher.

first off Stans innovations are different than the way my sifu trained me...These drills are very good against long range fighters or outside fighting. My Sifu didnt train us this way. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVXH9f1WMbY

Again these or stans innovations. I didnt learn this applications...my applications are different than his. I also have my own innovations too..What works best for me i should say from actually sparring with people. Stans innovations are different...my sifu would drill the form...drill chi sau and drill sparring. from the sparring we try an apply different techniques we drilled. my pak sau drills are mostly outside. I usually pak sau from the outside unless i have to do a technique on the inside. I perfer the outside of my opponent. His Techinques have been tested in the street however so i cant take anything from it. If you think his techs dont work. I am sure he would be more than happy to spar with you when ur in saint louis?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtkaSNBK6D8&list=UUlokgXUBs0jKwRFcELOAHDA&index=1&feature=plcp

these are more flowing drills. Where stan is throwing random punches. I have been on the receiving end of those punches. Believe me if you ever been hit by stan, you would know he is firing those punches for real. The reason why his son is backing away. Is because Stan is putting alot of power into those punches. i know because i been on the receiving in and felt his power. He is demostrating on how technique works against powerful punches.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVXH9f1WMbY&feature=autoplay&list=UUlokgXUBs0jKwRFcELOAHDA&lf=plcp&playnext=1

Here is Stans SLT...It has some innovations with in but for the most part it is exactly like what he learn from Robert McField. Some Techniques are under exaggerated on youtube. But Stans is also placing emphasis on the applications of snake hand technique which is wider in his form and smaller in Joseph Chow. Stan is also emphasis the martial aspect of SLT not the chi gung cultivation. That is why his form is not slow in the beginning (Three Prayers to Buddha) Especially Wu Sau, Fok Sau Huen San cycle. Have you ever hit someone with a Fok Sau. It has enough power to drop someone if you have internal power and hit them at the right time. Timing is everything. He has the same constant speed so you can clearly see all the techniques in detail but he is emitting power at the end of each technique! My SLT is different...My Sifu taught me his innovated form of SLT and also have a standardize version with my innovations. Ne way. I still say if you want to judge stans WC i suggest you actually get up with him and spar. He will also chi sau if you like. But I think sparring with him would be more beneficial for you. Since his WC is designed for fighting. Specifically street fighting!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybN8e_bzlJY&list=UUlokgXUBs0jKwRFcELOAHDA&index=10&feature=plcp

Joseph Chow Siu Lien Tao
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPHZ0xrd5fY

JPinAZ

01-09-2012, 11:17 PM

first off Stans innovations are different than the way my sifu trained me...These drills are very good against long range fighters or outside fighting. My Sifu didnt train us this way. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVXH9f1WMbY

No, those are not good drills. IMO, that is the worst example of WC on youtube. The 'punches' (if you can call them that) were almost 2 feet away and it was all chasing hands on the defense. No root, no balance, no structure, nothing. I particularly liked when stan puts his hand on his hip and defends one handed with his 'skill' :rolleyes:

This is the problem I see with WCK today. People teaching others that clearly have no clue what they are doing. I sure hope what you do is vastly better than this.

Again these or stans innovations. I didnt learn this applications...my applications are different than his. I also have my own innovations too..What works best for me i should say from actually sparring with people. Stans innovations are different...my sifu would drill the form...drill chi sau and drill sparring. from the sparring we try an apply different techniques we drilled. my pak sau drills are mostly outside. I usually pak sau from the outside unless i have to do a technique on the inside. I perfer the outside of my opponent. His Techinques have been tested in the street however so i cant take anything from it. If you think his techs dont work. I am sure he would be more than happy to spar with you when ur in saint louis?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtkaSNBK6D8&list=UUlokgXUBs0jKwRFcELOAHDA&index=1&feature=plcp

You're right, I know his techniques will not work if he trains like that. He is all chasing hands and leaning way fwd out of his root just so he can make contact with the horribly thrown 'punches' which have no energy in them. There is no innovation here. When I first saw these clips, I was sure this was just a joke. I wish it was, because if he's serious, that's a bigger joke than if it was intentional

Tested in the street?? against who, a third grader?

I think you would do better to not offer up challenge matches for someone else. Stan has enough problems without you adding to them.

On a positive note, this clip does get my Best Youtube Line of 2011 Award though: "when he pak sau, he going to hurt your arm so bad you're going to pee pee on yourself"

these are more flowing drills. Where stan is throwing random punches. I have been on the receiving end of those punches. Believe me if you ever been hit by stan, you would know he is firing those punches for real. The reason why his son is backing away. Is because Stan is putting alot of power into those punches. i know because i been on the receiving in and felt his power. He is demostrating on how technique works against powerful punches.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVXH9f1WMbY&feature=autoplay&list=UUlokgXUBs0jKwRFcELOAHDA&lf=plcp&playnext=1

When did Stan throw a punch? I didn't see any real 'punches' in that clip. He leaned fwd off balance a lot and stuck his fist out almost 2 feet away from his son's face, but those weren't punches. Maybe his son was backing away because he was embarrassed or because Stan far-ted or something? but not because of anything else stan was doing. IMO that was just terrible.

If you think there is power in those punches,I am sorta feeling sorry for you. These are the worst WC training clips I've ever seen. If you think this represents good training or a validation of stans 'skill' then maybe now I can understand why you come here and ask so many questions..

Here is Stans SLT...It has some innovations with in but for the most part it is exactly like what he learn from Robert McField. Some Techniques are under exaggerated on youtube. But Stans is also placing emphasis on the applications of snake hand technique which is wider in his form and smaller in Joseph Chow. Stan is also emphasis the martial aspect of SLT not the chi gung cultivation. That is why his form is not slow in the beginning (Three Prayers to Buddha) Especially Wu Sau, Fok Sau Huen San cycle. Have you ever hit someone with a Fok Sau. It has enough power to drop someone if you have internal power and hit them at the right time. Timing is everything. He has the same constant speed so you can clearly see all the techniques in detail but he is emitting power at the end of each technique! My SLT is different...My Sifu taught me his innovated form of SLT and also have a standardize version with my innovations. Ne way. I still say if you want to judge stans WC i suggest you actually get up with him and spar. He will also chi sau if you like. But I think sparring with him would be more beneficial for you. Since his WC is designed for fighting. Specifically street fighting!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybN8e_bzlJY&list=UUlokgXUBs0jKwRFcELOAHDA&index=10&feature=plcp

Joseph Chow Siu Lien Tao
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPHZ0xrd5fY

I'm not even going to comment on Stan's SNT clip, there's no need - it speaks for itself.

I am really surprised that you find his clips to be good or that you think stan has any skill. I edited my original post because after laughing at these clips for a while it hit me that you might actually be serious and think this is what good WCK is. After that, I just don't know what to say..

wtxs

01-10-2012, 01:53 PM

JPinAZ - It's an classic case of hero worship, now we may have a bit more understanding of his true WC skill ... or therefore lack of. :rolleyes:

Seriously bro ... you really need to stop banging your head on that brick wall. :D Slam a couple of beers instead. :cool:

anerlich

01-10-2012, 01:55 PM

He is demostrating on how technique works against powerful punches.

No powerful punches were thrown by either participant in that vid, and they were too far apart for any of the punches to have actually connected.

The dude might be able to hit hard and fight, but there's no evidence for either claim in that video.

GlennR

01-10-2012, 02:09 PM

Yoshiyahu

01-10-2012, 04:21 PM

Well thinks for your opinion. For one the punches he was throwing were not WC punches. He was just throwing power punches out to give his Son force to deal with...

ne way i had him throw punches at me before. The punches are hard. if you ever been hit by one...you will agree!

No, those are not good drills. IMO, that is the worst example of WC on youtube. The 'punches' (if you can call them that) were almost 2 feet away and it was all chasing hands on the defense. No root, no balance, no structure, nothing. I particularly liked when stan puts his hand on his hip and defends one handed with his 'skill' :rolleyes:

This is the problem I see with WCK today. People teaching others that clearly have no clue what they are doing. I sure hope what you do is vastly better than this.

You're right, I know his techniques will not work if he trains like that. He is all chasing hands and leaning way fwd out of his root just so he can make contact with the horribly thrown 'punches' which have no energy in them. There is no innovation here. When I first saw these clips, I was sure this was just a joke. I wish it was, because if he's serious, that's a bigger joke than if it was intentional

Tested in the street?? against who, a third grader?

I think you would do better to not offer up challenge matches for someone else. Stan has enough problems without you adding to them.

On a positive note, this clip does get my Best Youtube Line of 2011 Award though: "when he pak sau, he going to hurt your arm so bad you're going to pee pee on yourself"

When did Stan throw a punch? I didn't see any real 'punches' in that clip. He leaned fwd off balance a lot and stuck his fist out almost 2 feet away from his son's face, but those weren't punches. Maybe his son was backing away because he was embarrassed or because Stan far-ted or something? but not because of anything else stan was doing. IMO that was just terrible.

If you think there is power in those punches,I am sorta feeling sorry for you. These are the worst WC training clips I've ever seen. If you think this represents good training or a validation of stans 'skill' then maybe now I can understand why you come here and ask so many questions..

I'm not even going to comment on Stan's SNT clip, there's no need - it speaks for itself.

I am really surprised that you find his clips to be good or that you think stan has any skill. I edited my original post because after laughing at these clips for a while it hit me that you might actually be serious and think this is what good WCK is. After that, I just don't know what to say..

JPinAZ

01-11-2012, 01:38 PM

Well thinks for your opinion. For one the punches he was throwing were not WC punches. He was just throwing power punches out to give his Son force to deal with...

Again, those were not punches at all IMO and there was no 'power' in any of the. And, they did not look like somone "demostrating on how technique works against powerful punches. ". That never happened in any of those clips.

Really, these clips are aweful. If you honestly want to be taken seriously here, I would suggest not promoting Stan or these clips ever again. I really hope your training is a lot better than what's shown in those clips.

BTW, did Robert McField actually certify Stan to teach WCK?

ne way i had him throw punches at me before. The punches are hard. if you ever been hit by one...you will agree!

Then you must think 12 year old girls hit hard too ;)
Sorry Yoshi, I couldn't resist.

Yoshiyahu

01-12-2012, 09:42 AM

lol...your a funny guy. Alls i can say is you should come to saint louis. meet me...and meet him...

Again, those were not punches at all IMO and there was no 'power' in any of the. And, they did not look like somone "demostrating on how technique works against powerful punches. ". That never happened in any of those clips.

Really, these clips are aweful. If you honestly want to be taken seriously here, I would suggest not promoting Stan or these clips ever again. I really hope your training is a lot better than what's shown in those clips.

BTW, did Robert McField actually certify Stan to teach WCK?

Then you must think 12 year old girls hit hard too ;)
Sorry Yoshi, I couldn't resist.

JPinAZ

01-12-2012, 04:57 PM

lol...your a funny guy. Alls i can say is you should come to saint louis. meet me...and meet him...

Actually, if I was ever in in St. Louis by chance, I'd probably try to meet up with good'ol Terrence before I'd meet up with you two. ;)

But just to make yourself clear, exactly why do you think I should make a special trip and fly from phoenix to st louis just to come meet you and that clown stan?

Yoshiyahu

01-12-2012, 08:35 PM

Actually, if I was ever in in St. Louis by chance, I'd probably try to meet up with good'ol Terrence before I'd meet up with you two. ;)

But just to make yourself clear, exactly why do you think I should make a special trip and fly from phoenix to st louis just to come meet you and that clown stan?

On second thought...Dont come meet me...you already know it all..just meet stan if you think your fighting is good...be sure to call him a clown before you spar with him!!!

you will get on great!

GlennR

01-12-2012, 10:51 PM

Eric_H

01-13-2012, 01:41 AM

On second thought...Dont come meet me...you already know it all..just meet stan if you think your fighting is good...be sure to call him a clown before you spar with him!!!

you will get on great!

Yoshiyahu,

Not meant offensively, but Stan doesn't really represent well in those clips. Certainly not well enough to be worth a trip to St. Louis to go spar. There are world class kickboxers and mma folks in Arizona, JPinAZ would both financially and training wise be better off locally. You may believe Stan is a good fighter, and he may even be a decent scrapper, but those clips do not represent it at all.

I hope both you and Stan will put up sparring clips in the future, then both you and us will pretty well be able to say either you have it yet or don't.

Best,

JPinAZ

01-13-2012, 07:31 AM

On second thought...Dont come meet me...you already know it all..just meet stan if you think your fighting is good...be sure to call him a clown before you spar with him!!!

you will get on great!

First you start talking smack and 'challenge me' to come meet both you AND stan by myself, then in the next breath you back out and put it on me for backing out. If you're going to put up the oh-so-deadly internet challenge, at least have the friggin ba11s to stand behind it for more than a day :rolleyes:

For that matter, why not just stop issuing challenges for someone (stan) that isn't even here (or better yet, at all, it's just really pathetic). But if you really feel the need, at least be a man about, and stand up for yourself and stop hiding behind youtube circus perfromers who aren't even here.

Wayfaring

01-13-2012, 09:45 AM

On second thought...Dont come meet me...you already know it all..just meet stan if you think your fighting is good...be sure to call him a clown before you spar with him!!!

you will get on great!

Speaking of sparring, did either you or stan ever make it over to Finney's or Rodrigo Vaghi's where Niehoff trains (in St. Louis) to spar with him or any of the people there?

I mean why waste about with all the internet challenges to travel cross country to spar when you can just hop in your car?

I'm sure if you guys posted up clips of your great "street fighting" abilities while sparring with some of Vaghi's guys it would shut everyone up around here, as opposed to videos playing around in a compliant fashion with one of your sons.

Yoshiyahu

01-13-2012, 12:05 PM

Yoshiyahu,

Not meant offensively, but Stan doesn't really represent well in those clips. Certainly not well enough to be worth a trip to St. Louis to go spar. There are world class kickboxers and mma folks in Arizona, JPinAZ would both financially and training wise be better off locally. You may believe Stan is a good fighter, and he may even be a decent scrapper, but those clips do not represent it at all.

I hope both you and Stan will put up sparring clips in the future, then both you and us will pretty well be able to say either you have it yet or don't.

Best,

Well you have your opinion!

First you start talking smack and 'challenge me' to come meet both you AND stan by myself, then in the next breath you back out and put it on me for backing out. If you're going to put up the oh-so-deadly internet challenge, at least have the friggin ba11s to stand behind it for more than a day :rolleyes:

For that matter, why not just stop issuing challenges for someone (stan) that isn't even here (or better yet, at all, it's just really pathetic). But if you really feel the need, at least be a man about, and stand up for yourself and stop hiding behind youtube circus perfromers who aren't even here.

lol, ha ha...where are your clips on wing chun...please show me something worthy?

Speaking of sparring, did either you or stan ever make it over to Finney's or Rodrigo Vaghi's where Niehoff trains (in St. Louis) to spar with him or any of the people there?

I mean why waste about with all the internet challenges to travel cross country to spar when you can just hop in your car?

I'm sure if you guys posted up clips of your great "street fighting" abilities while sparring with some of Vaghi's guys it would shut everyone up around here, as opposed to videos playing around in a compliant fashion with one of your sons.

Well as for Vaghi's No. i have not been. I have met a guy named Alvin who is older who was a fighter there back in the day. He is in his forties now...but as for actually going there to challenge Niehoff. Absoultely not. I doubt if the man is even there. I never met niehoff nor do I know what he looks like...I think its pretty wild to show up at someone fantasy school an be like I am here looking to spar some guy who trains her...he post on an internet forum. I gave niehoff my contact info. Did he ever contact me personally NO...He says just meet him at a place...

So alls i have to go on is some guy on the internet who i never actually spoken with telling me to meet him at some school or gym. Why waste time and money going somewhere to meet someone u never spoken with or seen prior...I have met people off of the forums even been to their schools. But i actually knew they real people prior to meeting them...

Ne way it is what is!

sanjuro_ronin

01-13-2012, 12:16 PM

If one wishes to demo Chi sao then doing chi sao is fine.
Chi sao is not fighting.
If one wishes to demo the wooden dummy then doing the wooden dummy is fine.
The wooden dummy is not fighting.
If one wishes to demo a form of WC then doing a demo of a from of WC is just fine.
Forms are not fighting.
However, if one wishes to demo WC, the heart and soul of WC, then one should demo fighting with WC.
WC is fighting afterall.

It wouldn't hurt people to learn this mantra and follow it as best they can:
SEE IT TAUGHT, SEE IT FOUGHT.

Wayfaring

01-13-2012, 07:23 PM

Well as for Vaghi's No. i have not been. I have met a guy named Alvin who is older who was a fighter there back in the day. He is in his forties now

Does he still spar :) ?

...but as for actually going there to challenge Niehoff. Absoultely not. I doubt if the man is even there. I never met niehoff nor do I know what he looks like...I think its pretty wild to show up at someone fantasy school an be like I am here looking to spar some guy who trains her...he post on an internet forum. I gave niehoff my contact info. Did he ever contact me personally NO...He says just meet him at a place...

So alls i have to go on is some guy on the internet who i never actually spoken with telling me to meet him at some school or gym. Why waste time and money going somewhere to meet someone u never spoken with or seen prior...I have met people off of the forums even been to their schools. But i actually knew they real people prior to meeting them...

Ne way it is what is!

Sorry - not trying to stir all that up again. All I'm trying to get at is if you have an opinion of yourself or stan's sparring or fighting ability, it's fairly easy nowadays to be able to train with people who have known quantatative fighting ability, and I named two in your area.

For example, in the area I live in we have open mat practices on Sunday at 3pm. So anyone around has the ability to come in for free and train with known fighters and train striking or ground or mixed.

So how about your area? Do they have that type of thing in gyms around there that train fighters? I would pursue that before forming too strong of an opinion about how great your fighting ability really is.

Wayfaring

01-13-2012, 07:25 PM

If one wishes to demo Chi sao then doing chi It wouldn't hurt people to learn this mantra and follow it as best they can:
SEE IT TAUGHT, SEE IT FOUGHT.

I agree, sanjuro.

Gotta keep it real.

Yoshiyahu

01-14-2012, 07:07 PM

Well thanks for your opinion...I just realize this thread is about chi gung...not sparring actually...

So lets get back on topic...do you have anything to share about the sorta of chi gung you do...can you post a video or pic?

Does he still spar :) ?

Sorry - not trying to stir all that up again. All I'm trying to get at is if you have an opinion of yourself or stan's sparring or fighting ability, it's fairly easy nowadays to be able to train with people who have known quantatative fighting ability, and I named two in your area.

For example, in the area I live in we have open mat practices on Sunday at 3pm. So anyone around has the ability to come in for free and train with known fighters and train striking or ground or mixed.

So how about your area? Do they have that type of thing in gyms around there that train fighters? I would pursue that before forming too strong of an opinion about how great your fighting ability really is.

JPinAZ

01-16-2012, 10:55 AM

Well thanks for your opinion...I just realize this thread is about chi gung...not sparring actually...

So lets get back on topic...do you have anything to share about the sorta of chi gung you do...can you post a video or pic?

It was you that brought up the sparring with your rediculous 'internet challenge' for me to come out and meet you and stan. But I understand your desire to quickly backpedal out of that and for trying to get back on topic - you've made yourself look silly enough on this thread with that garbage. ;)

Regarding the chi gung portion of this thread, maybe you could answer my question finally. So there is no misunderstanding, I'll be very specific:

Could you please define what you feel is "WC Chi Gung" vs. just regular non-WC related Chi Gung. What, besides 'some teacher added it' qualifies something as being WC specific training?

More specifically, what about the bagua tea cup excersize now qualifies it as being 'WC chi gung' where the tai chi circle stepping isnt? IMO, saying 'well, a master added it' doesn't fly. Maybe you could point to some WC concepts/principles that support this claim.

Yoshiyahu

01-19-2012, 09:19 PM

Real Chi Gung for wing chun...

its all dependant on your sifu....

Some people have chi gung in the forms...namely sil lim tau...

For my sifu practicing Siu lien tau really slowly is WC chi gung...of course wing chun chi gung is found in all the forms...

But it also practices other methods of Chi Gung as well...

His my Sifu's Sifu had a chi gung form that is unique to mau chang's wing chun. in addition to other YKS chi gung that is practice. My Sifu also taught me the saucer cup chi gung. As wing chun chi gung...Some of the things hendriks practices I also learn. Not necessarily as WC chi gung but as chi gung....

But let me go ahead an make a list for you by the things you know of!!!

Wing Chun chi gung
1.siu lien tau done very slowly
2.Tea cup exercises
3.Expanding chest
4.twisting the torso side to side

etc....

The last three i mentioned...think of them as more as healing exercises. or strecthing exercises...doing these exercises will strecth out the muscles and release stagnation...

Holding the YGKYM with the fist chamberd at the sides below the armpits puts strain on the muscles does it not...surely over time your body relaxes and you get use to it...but the exercises I listed that you disagree with are there for relaxing the muscles further and exercising them...you have both yin and yang...Just because you dont understand what they are for doesn't mean its useless...I do not call them strecthing exercises because it is more than stretching...the idea is to heal your body.

But if you cant understand this...I cant help you dog...

ne way...if your WC only uses SLT and other drills from the forms to develop chi gung fine...thats cool beans...I practice alot of different kinds of Chi Gung including the WC chi gung i listed!

It was you that brought up the sparring with your rediculous 'internet challenge' for me to come out and meet you and stan. But I understand your desire to quickly backpedal out of that and for trying to get back on topic - you've made yourself look silly enough on this thread with that garbage. ;)

Regarding the chi gung portion of this thread, maybe you could answer my question finally. So there is no misunderstanding, I'll be very specific:

Could you please define what you feel is "WC Chi Gung" vs. just regular non-WC related Chi Gung. What, besides 'some teacher added it' qualifies something as being WC specific training?

More specifically, what about the bagua tea cup excersize now qualifies it as being 'WC chi gung' where the tai chi circle stepping isnt? IMO, saying 'well, a master added it' doesn't fly. Maybe you could point to some WC concepts/principles that support this claim.

GeneChing

01-10-2020, 08:42 AM

Nice story.

Cork Lives
10.01.2020 09:48

https://www.echolive.ie/portalsuite/image//fe030fff-0cd2-437c-9a68-af1c84e399ca/mainMediaSize=537x291_type=image_publish=true_x0=0 _y0=5.71_x1=100_y1=70.48_format=1.7777777777777777 __image.jpg
Sheena Crowley. Picture: Michael Keenan

'He told me in six months I wasn't going to be able to move... so I took up kung fu,' says Cork fitness instructor (https://www.echolive.ie/corklives/He-told-me-in-six-months-I-wasnt-going-to-be-able-to-move-so-I-took-up-kung-fu-says-Cork-fitness-instructor-16b2b502-44c0-4dfd-b481-3c9cdcd56932-ds)
By Ellie O'Byrne

AT just 18, Sheena Crowley was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis. Throughout her twenties, she battled the agonising condition. By the time she was 30, her doctor was telling her to prepare for her future by installing wheelchair ramps at her home and modifying her kitchen.

“He said that in six months’ time I wasn’t going to be able to move, and scheduled me a meeting with someone to arrange a wheelchair and give me advice on the house,” Sheena says. “He told me that the less I moved the better.”

“So I took up kung fu.” She smiles.

Now, 23 years later, Sheena is far from immobile. In fact, she runs her own business, Gingko Mind & Body Wellness, and teaches Slow Motion Fitness classes, based on the ancient Chinese discipline of Qi Gong.

Her journey into Qi Gong practice started with those weekly Wing Chun Kung Fu classes with instructor John O’Riordan.

“I don’t know what made me think of starting Kung Fu, but I did,” Sheena recalls.

“I trained with John once a week, and it took over my life. It still hurt me, and even now it still does; walking can be painful. But you come to realise that pain is just there to give you a message. The more I did, the more the peripheral pain lessened.

“You balance the external work of kung fu, that’s very demanding on the body, with the soft, internal work of Qi Gong.

“For a long time, to me it was just like the pleasure at the end of your training session, but then I became sick, so I turned to Qi Gong fully.”

https://www.echolive.ie/portalsuite/image//65a657b4-d9ac-41c4-bbf5-9c3d171a4e4c/mainMediaSize=MEDIUM_type=image_x0=0_y0=0_x1=100_y 1=100__image.jpg
Sheena Crowley. Picture: Michael Keenan

Sheena’s father, Michael, was a well-known figure in Cork as proprietor of Crowley’s Music Store on McCurtain Street. The much-loved iconic store had catered for generations of Cork musicians. One of its numerous claims to fame was that Rory Gallagher bought his first guitar there.

Following Michael’s death in 2010, Sheena found herself trying to rescue the floundering business.

In 2013, it was a sad moment for the city when she finally conceded and shut the doors on Crowley’s. But the personal toll was devastating; stress had a profound impact on her health.

“It took nearly three years to close the business and I was hanging on for dear life,” Sheena says.

“I was trying to save it because I loved it. I worked from early in the morning until late at night.

“My kidneys were shutting down, my blood pressure was going through the roof. When I went to the doctor, I was just offered medication.

“My kung fu instructor came to my house every day for a month, and we did Qi Gong, and I started to feel a difference.”

While Sheena, who went on to study as a Qi Gong instructor in the Philippines, isn’t “anti- medication,” she sees our current over-burdened healthcare system as symptomatic of the blind eye our fast-paced lives make us turn to our health.

The benefits of knowing our bodies and caring for them are, she says, preventative: “I think we need a system of therapies that people can turn to before they get to the stage of going to the doctor.”

Qi Gong, she says, is all about slowing back down and restoring the connection between mind and body.

Your Qi (pronounced ‘chee’) is your life-force energy, Sheena explains. By learning about balancing Yin and Yang, practitioners learn to cultivate their Qi, which exercises impact on different bodily organs, the foods to support your body type, and the interactions between different emotional states and the healthy balance of different organs’ energy.

https://www.echolive.ie/portalsuite/image//1e48f163-a756-45c3-8905-652a0045cf27/mainMediaSize=MEDIUM_type=image_x0=0_y0=0_x1=100_y 1=100__image.jpg
Sheena Crowley.
Picture: Michael Keenan

“These were exercises designed by Chinese philosophers and monks 5,000 years ago, and that turned into kung fu, and then tai chi came from that,” she says.

“The exercises are designed to maintain your health and to give you responsibility for your body.

“In Qi Gong, we believe that stress and emotions make up 90% of why you’re sick.

“Your spleen is affected by worry, the liver is anger; our emotions are much bigger than we understand, and we invest in them so much and we keep going back to them.”

It seems that in recent years there’s been a backlash against alternative therapies; we’re in an era when science and rationality, however dogmatically they’re asserted, are prized above all else.

Sheena knows that for many Irish people, talk of the body’s flow of energy and of balancing the elements and Yin and Yang can be off-putting.

“I’m reluctant to talk about moving energy around the body, because people are very resistant to things like that in the West, but it’s scientifically proven that the body has an electromagnetic field,” she says.

“The heart has an electromagnetic pulse.”

“The people who are cynical about what I do tend to be the ones who don’t know anything about it.

“How can you dismiss something when you don’t even understand how it works? I think it’s sad that there’s so many naysayers.”

In China, there are 38,000 Qi Gong styles, people can be seen practicing it in parks and public spaces, and the traditional system of medicine is based on the same concepts of Yin and Yang and the elements. But in Ireland, these are new ideas to many.

“I call my classes Slow Motion Fitness because a lot of people haven’t heard of Qi Gong and I thought ‘slow motion fitness’ would give them a sense of what it is,” Sheena says.

“But also, I’m not a purist. I also trained as a personal trainer and so I use some western methodologies mixed in.”

Gingko Mind & Body Wellness classes run in Douglas Community Centre, Ballinlough Youth Centre and Ardfallen Methodist Church Hall, as well as one-on-one sessions, begin in early January. Info: www.facebook.com/GingkoMindBodyWellness/

THREADS
Wing Chun Qi Gong (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?3486-Wing-Chun-Qi-Gong)
Qigong as Medicine (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?55537-Qigong-as-Medicine)