PDA

View Full Version : To Terrence



yellowpikachu
01-16-2005, 10:41 AM
It's fine to present theories, to suggest lines of inquiry, etc. It's another thing to prove something. -------- TN



while I am wrapping up signing off here and completing posting the Shao LIn Technolgy.

Thanks for your great Advise and appreciated.





You know, may be in reality those history, his-story, Kuen Kuit, White Crane Weng Chun, Emei 12 Zhuang, Shao Lin, Inch power.... bla bla bla...ect ect.


all those are secondary

Really, might not Important at all.

the most important thing might be about to drill and make mind to be able to think clear and critically after all these Bla Bla Bla histories.. all discussion.

Cocoon is a place for butterfly to transform. finger is not moon.




IMHO,
Without a good mind, one doesnt have the potential to absorb information properly and effectively.

Doing thing right is not the same with doing the right thing.
Being efficient is not equal to being effective...

To boost or upgrade an art or a profession. One needs to first polish and upgrade the mind. IE. One cannot run an Window Xp based super program with a Window 1.0 platform.







IMHO,
As for the critics and abusing words, as my Chan master teaches me,

those are just like some one put something on the table, it may be a good book or a hand cuff . One needs to examine what it is. one pick up the book to read and improve. as on the hand cuff, one doesnt pick it up hand cuff oneself and start complaining, blaming, about the hand cuff limiting one's freedom or ....bla bla bla.

So, when people are claiming doing ZEn or Chan or having Chan or samadhi. lay a hand Cuff on the floor, if he take it up and cuffing his own hands and start scolding you and called you name or start all sort of illogical verbal abuse.

One knows he has no Zen at all.
why bother to even pick up a hand cuff to cuff oneself?





IMHO,

this ZEn stuff, is important, why?

Ernie always mention one has to be able to stand in pressure to test thier skill. That is true. The japanese Samurai has to be able to be still or in Samadhi facing the Sharp Samurai sword of the opponents.


if one cant even have a clear mind to see if it is a book or is it a hand cuff. One doesnt have a clear and critical mind to be able to preciesly know what is what.

if one is unconscious that one is following a habitual subsconcious patern to pick up the hand cuff and cuff oneself. Then, one has no control in one's action. not to mention of one starts to scold or blame others. how the heck one is going to be able to stand on pressure? Ernie is right one's skill has to be able to stand in pressure.

So, the Thus Thus not moving of Emei 12 Zhuang, the immovable heart or Bu Dong Xing of Damo of Shao Lin. or the Unflatten (sp) wisdom of the Samurai or starts here.

There is only one Chan or Zen be it in India, China, japan, Europa, USA.. or all race. there is no our Chan your Chan....etc. the point of Chan is about do one see the moon and not about our Chan teaching or my Chan teaching. Thus, one needs a verifiedable Chan patriach who has the mind seal of the Buddha to certify one.

Chasing hands? go for center?





as for where one find this type of training in WCK?
Thus, I have heard,

On the SLT kuen Kuit passed Down from Yik Kam, the first stanza said, Collect the Yee to meet the Awareness standing in a shoulder wide stance".

That "collect the Yee to meet the Awareness" is about the training of to be clearly aware, not let the Yee just go like a wild horse running wild, not simply take whatever lay on the table and hand cuff one's hands and starts blaming and whining (sp). Un aware of one's habitual action and Un aware of the mind is a dull and not critical mind.

So, people can read some books claiming about Now and Here, limitless energy, no boundary.... all sort of stuffs. But is that Zen at all? Check it with a good book and a hand cuff. if they dont aware, then there are doing talking Zen which simply recite from books.


So, the whole thing is starting from to have AWARENESS, nothing is so complex. THus I have heard.



So long Terrence! ( am I spell your name right?)

BTW. that fighting fighting view doesnt make sense at all. (Is it a hand cuff?) :D



just some thoughts

canglong
01-16-2005, 12:52 PM
So long Terrence! ( am I spell your name right?) No, LOL that was a good one :D :D :D

Knifefighter
01-16-2005, 08:39 PM
Originally posted by yellowpikachu
BTW. that fighting fighting view doesnt make sense at all. It only makes no sense if you are a theoretical non-fighter.

CFT
01-17-2005, 03:27 AM
Originally posted by Knifefighter
It only makes no sense if you are a theoretical non-fighter. Some esoteric concepts like the Zen(Chan) state of nothingness or "mu" might sound like useless clap-trap, but we still hear it used by modern sportsmen/fighters: "being in the moment"/"in the zone".

Can this state of awareness (or non-awareness) be cultivated just by fighting only, or do non-fighting activities help (like meditation)? Or is it all overhyped jargon?

t_niehoff
01-17-2005, 06:56 AM
Hendrik,

I'm all for historical research -- I find it an interesting and worthwhile endeavor. So I want you to keep at it, keep pluggin' away, keep looking for connections, etc. The search for information is a key part of this sort of research. But as I pointed out on the HFY108 forum:

With regard to historical research, as I've explained, many things may be true but we need to have some way of verifying that is the case, that they are indeed "true". It is the verification that proves to EVERYONE that it is true. You can't expect people to embrace "secret truths" or accept your word, no matter how lofty your title, for things. This verification is a process -- specific information is collected, the source of that information must be identified, the indicia of reliability of that source needs to be explored (why can we rely on that source), the chain of reasoning that uses that information, along with others, must be made explicit (even good info can be wrongly applied), and conclusions drawn must be identified (as separate from info gathered) and supported. All this needs to be done so that it can be PEER REVIEWED, that is independently verified. This is a critical step in the verification process. And anyone who has been involved in peer review process will tell you that you should expect to be challenged, questioned, attacked, etc. It sometimes gets real nasty, even in the most exalted scientific journals. That's part of the process -- this is what weeds out those things that simply won't stand up under fire. Scientists and authors don't respond to peer review questions with "how dare you challenge my integrity!" or "in the old days, these sort of questions would lead to a duel" or similar sentiments. Nor do those folks presenting their findings/theories expect that replies in the vein of "I can verifiy it only to my associates so you just need to take my work on it" or "my sources of information are secret" or similar things expect to be given a thumbs-up by the reviewers. The reality of the verification process is that if you can't verify these things to peer review, your findings will be rejected as unproven (which, doesn't mean they are untrue, just that you haven't provided those things necessary to prove they're true).

This goes for the VTM and for you.

Now while history is interesting, it doesn't help us use our martial art. You may think history provides answers (this is how they used things in the past) but it doesn't. At best -- best -- that provides us a possiblilty, or perhaps a starting point to begin to find our own way of application. IMO our ancestors, like the ancestors in other martial arts, simply weren't all that skilled in empty-hand fighting by *today's standards*. Whenever we see evidence -- as opposed to stories -- of their skill (like the famous Tai Ji master vs. White Crane master fight that was filmed), we see they basically sucked by today's standards. So why do we want to try to do things like them, in a 2nd rate way? Instead, we should take our tools, put them to use (fight), and find how we, as individuals, can best use them. This is how all fighters learn and develop. We can model ourselves after success or stick to being 2nd rate.

t_niehoff
01-17-2005, 07:06 AM
BTW, Hendrik, I'll try to find the reference, but a study was done on japanese swordmanship that you might find interesting. Up until fairly recently, peasants were not permitted to own swords in Japan -- only samurai and royalty were allowed to have them. And of course we know how the samurai developed schools (ryu) and took up Zen to help them, etc. Well, when peasants were finally permitted to have swords, they began practicing with them competitively -- not studying Zen, not taking up Ryu -- just getting in and swordfighting with each other (with shinai). At the very first competition where the peasants were permitted to compete with the samurai, the peasants overwhelming defeated the samurai, with the secret Ryu and Zen. Why? Because their training -- how they trained -- was superior to how the samurai trained (kata, drills, etc.). Were the samurai good? Sure, in relative terms (since everyone trained poorly, they developed as best they could) but when the peasants adopted a better training model, they could no longer do things the "old way", the "traditional way." So the samurai began adopting the competitive training into what they were doing. We can get stuck in time or keep up.

canglong
01-17-2005, 07:28 AM
originally posted by t_niehoff
Now while history is interesting, it doesn't help us use our martial art. Then in your next post you use history as an example of how it can help training progress in a manner to help and individual use his art. Terence you seem to enjoy arguing so much you even do it with yourself that's interesting.

CFT
01-17-2005, 07:48 AM
You know the well worn comment about the importance of studying history? - "To avoid making the same mistakes". Well two "World Wars" later and much pontification, we're still making the same mistakes and waging war. So we can still look to history and learn nothing.

BTW Tony, I think Terence's historical lesson is qualitatively different to Hendrik's. Terence is quoting some "high level" training methods whilst Hendrk is looking for "fine detail" training methods which may not be documented in sufficient detail to be of use to us.

CFT
01-17-2005, 07:49 AM
You know the well worn comment about the importance of studying history? - "To avoid making the same mistakes". Well two "World Wars" later and much pontification, we're still making the same mistakes and waging war.

So we can still look to history and learn nothing. BTW Tony, I think Terence's historical lesson is qualitatively different to Hendrik's. Terence is quoting some "high level" training methods whilst Hendrk is looking for "fine detail" training methods which may not be documented in sufficient detail to be of use to us.

canglong
01-17-2005, 08:08 AM
Arguably there has been no third world war because of what was learned previously.

A valueable "historic lesson" never the less.

t_niehoff
01-17-2005, 08:19 AM
You mean no third world war "yet". ;)

I suppose everything that has already happened can be considered "history" but as Chee correctly noted what I'm talking about is looking at *evidence of the results of training methods* (how we train) as opposed to "traditional" technical considerations. For example, Jigaro Kano took "traditional" jiujitsu techniques but changed the training method (from kata and cooperative training to fighting as the core of his training) and his judo trainees defeated all comers from the traditional schools.

CFT
01-17-2005, 08:33 AM
Originally posted by t_niehoff
... what I'm talking about is looking at *evidence of the results of training methods* (how we train) as opposed to "traditional" technical considerations. For example, Jigaro Kano took "traditional" jiujitsu techniques but changed the training method (from kata and cooperative training to fighting as the core of his training) and his judo trainees defeated all comers from the traditional schools. Ah!!! But that is just part of the story ... the Kodokan judo school did well until it came up against the Fusen Ryu school which focused more on ground-fighting; I don't know if they were considered a 'traditional' school or not. Nonetheless, Kano and his senior students studied their methods after the competition.

CFT
01-17-2005, 08:38 AM
Originally posted by canglong
Arguably there has been no third world war because of what was learned previously.The First World War was called the "War to end all wars", and the toll on human lives and potential was great; yet there was still a second - although some argue that it was just a continuation of the first.

Still, we on the Wing Chun forum have "Word Wars" all the time, so we definitely don't learn from history - and certainly not from his-story as Hendrik is so fond of saying :p

canglong
01-17-2005, 08:51 AM
Still, we on the Wing Chun forum have "Word Wars" all the time, so we definitely don't learn from history - and certainly not from his-story as Hendrik is so fond of sayingStill,
yet in everything we endeavor to do there is something to be learned if that is our true aim.