Monkey see, Monkey do

[AndrewS]

An interesting episode from training yesterday: Went through a bunch of rounds moving from cooperative tests of 'structure', to free-er such tests, to isolated specific takedown defenses using the body, to free takedown defense using only body, finishing with free takedown defense with the guy going for takedowns acting as dummy for combinations after the defense (i.e. 30-50% takedown attempt from the clinch, followed by 10-20% resistance so the guy defending could get a feel for explosively capitalizing on a successful defense).

Anyway, in the final free round I went first, and, in the course of the round, shut down one attempt walking through with a biu/fak sequence, leg coordinated, as implied in Biu Tze. Nothing shocking, this is one I've worked at lot against a double neck tie, and can make work pretty well. Next round, my partner is defending me, and pulls out the same technique, done very nicely, an application he'd never done before, and which he'd never used in free practice before.

I know I've done similar things in the past, picking up things without formal teaching from working with people, and getting nailed by their motion, but this crystallized an interesting form of learning for me- something well past class-room spoonfeeding. He did that cleaner on first site free, than he would have done on his 50th rep of isolation. It all worked.

This sort of spontaneous expression, whether it be emulation or creativity (the latter I'll stay away from discussing) seems to be where skill truely comes together, and is clearly a process qualitatively different from typical rote learning.

My sense is that these moments of success also imprint the skills used during them far more successfully than hours of repetition, but are only valid if they are real successes (not someone simply folding and letting you do what you will).

I don't know if I have a point here, this is more just musing, nonetheless, I'm again impressed by the power of the human organism to learn.

Andrew

[Ultimatewingchun]

Good thoughts here, Andrew.

On-the-job learning of something new with a partner that's giving some resistance is definitely a step up from just repetitive isolated drills (although these are very important also).

It's a step closer to reality fighting, and provides an opportunity to be creative, as you said.

Learning by watching (and feeling) something just once or twice and then repeating it back shows that your friend has skills and natural athleticism.

It does inspire when you see it.

[AndrewS]

Hey Victor,

the party in question has definitely been around the block.

You bring up a good point- it seems that this sort of behavior requires a certain background, in order for it to occur. I'm thinking a decent level of prior training and athleticism, though I suspect the latter is far more important.

Athletes- people with a good repetoir of motor patterns seem much more able to find this stuff.

Andrew

[Ultimatewingchun]

Yeah...absolutely.

I guess that's why so many really good athletes often excel at so many different sports and other activities (ie. - dancing).

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by AndrewS
My sense is that these moments of success also imprint the skills used during them far more successfully than hours of repetition, One thing I've noticed in my years of BJJ. The schools that spend relatively little time on working specific techniques, but more time sparring, tend to turn out better people than those schools that spend less time sparring, but more time drilling.

[SAAMAG]

This brings to mind something I've been going through since going to the new wing tsun school.

I found that even the simplest techniques, when applying them in predetermined drilling are hard for me to do just exactly the way they want me to.

Take that same action or something close to it, and put me in a free environment, and the techniques come out spontaneously, and technically better as well.

When Im asked to perform something in a confining environment, I have a hard time doing it. I wonder if maybe it's because the drill is making me do something that I naturally would not do against that technique anymore, or if maybe it's something more mental like I'm concentrating sooo hard to make sure I do it their way, that I mess it up.

Perhaps it is because of my varied background....not sure. Anyway, this post kinda made me think about that.

[sihing]

Van,

Your right, probably due to your varied background in MA and/or you may be a particular type of person that performs better under pressure, and doesn't concern themselves as much with details when practicing. That's the thing when one comes in to learning with a full cup. My Sifu trained for 25 yrs in Hung Gar, Woo Dip Kung Fu systems and WSL WC before he learned the TWC system, and said that he just became the perfect student that he always imagined having. No prejudice or conjecture, just absorb what was being taught in front of him. In his case his previous MA helped him instead of hurting, as he wouldn't of been able to do it as well if he was a greenhorn, fresh off the boat, learning it the way he did. He had similar experiences, someone would teach him something and the next day he was doing it at par or better.

James

[AndrewS]

Dale,

a couple of questions

1). Drilling- do you include 'live' drilling in here (i.e. start at a position and go for a fixed goal against resistance). My take is that going from dead reps straight to free practice is not terribly productive if there isn't an isolation phase in there, while isolation sparring/drilling comes out in free practice very easily.

2). What's your take on an optimum breakdown of training time for drilling vs. free practice, and how do you think that varies between different levels of experience in a trainee?

Van,

here's a tip- drop your hands mid-application and see where the other person's force is going, have the other person do the same to you. Often in fixed drills your partner will anticipate your response and start to counter it with an inappropriate pressure, making the drill about useless. When this sort of thing happens you need to do what you feel; unfortunately that can be problematic when you're doing a fixed drill.

Also, as far as beginning WT goes, keep it simple: forearm soft, elbows strong, pressure from the hips, always drive for the center of mass.

Victor,

there's a great article on Karelin sitting like a wallflower at some olympic party until one of the female gymnasts or ice skaters decided to ask the shy giant to dance. Appearantly he wowed the crowd and was one of the most graceful people on the floor.

Andrew

[Ultimatewingchun]

1). Drilling- do you include 'live' drilling in here (i.e. start at a position and go for a fixed goal against resistance). My take is that going from dead reps straight to free practice is not terribly productive if there isn't an isolation phase in there, while isolation sparring/drilling comes out in free practice very easily.

2). What's your take on an optimum breakdown of training time for drilling vs. free practice, and how do you think that varies between different levels of experience in a trainee?

Andrew:

I know these are questions you asked Dale, but I'd like to respond to them as well.

Your take about going from dead reps to straight free practice is exactly the same as mine. It's not productive if there isn't some isolated drilling first...the only exception being, imo, very advanced guys who've been working out regularly and therefore are just picking up right where they left off in their last session.

But even that is rare, imo.

For the most part, I've always found that doing some drilling first before all out sparring produces the best results.

At my 3 hour sparring class on Saturdays - after warmups, SLT, footwork, punching, kicking, chi sao and isolated drilling....there's usually about one hour left for free sparring.

I like that formula.

As I said...the only time I vary that and do more like 1.5-2 hours of sparring is when only the most advanced students in the school happen to show up on that particular day - and even then we still usually do a little drilling first.

And the protective equipment for hard contact sparring has to go on for those 1-2 hours at every Saturday class - can't let a week go by without all out contact sparring...otherwise the fighting skills will definitely deteriorate.

[sihing]

Originally posted by AndrewS
Often in fixed drills your partner will anticipate your response and start to counter it with an inappropriate pressure, making the drill about useless. When this sort of thing happens you need to do what you feel; unfortunately that can be problematic when you're doing a fixed drill.
Andrew

Yes, this is a good observation Andrew. I find this all the time with students and practice partners. They give you the wrong energy and you have to adapt with something outside the fixed drill, very true and happens all the time. That's why as a instructor you have to explain both roles when demonstrating and explain partner drills with fixed patterns, to the one that attacks(boxer, non WC style) and to the WC person defending, to gain the benefit from the drill.

James

[Ultimatewingchun]

And I also find that when this happens - it can often become a perfect segway to show people how to adapt to the "new" energy (new move, whatever) - by immediately changing their original planned response into something else more appropriate to the new situation.

Then I tell them to go back and drill it the original way for awhile - to be followed by either A or B coming at them...and they must respond immediately with the appropriate move for each.

[Chronos]

And all the monkeys aren't in the zoo
everyday you see quite a few
so you see it's all up to you,
you could be better than you are
you could be swinging on a star
---
(Music : Jimmy Van Heusen / Words : Johnny Burke)

[Kevin Bell]

Hey Andrew

Dont know how deep you go mate but i dusted down some of my old college books the other day and sections of it deal with what you're more or less talking about.

Here's the reference should you want to do some research

"Motor control and learning-a behavioural emphasis"

Richard A.Schmidt

Cheers

Kev

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Chronos
And all the monkeys aren't in the zoo
everyday you see quite a few
so you see it's all up to you,
you could be better than you are
you could be swinging on a star
---
(Music : Jimmy Van Heusen / Words : Johnny Burke)

Hey, mind if I steal this? :D

[AndrewS]

Hey Kev,

I'll check it out.

Got your e-mail a while ago, and, uh, it got deleted in the New Year's cleaning.

Ooops!

Later,

Andrew

P.S. DL PR 471 day before yesterday (w/ my fiance PR'ing @ 158)!

[Kevin Bell]

Holy Smokes Andrew you monster!!!:D :D

Man thats just fired me up big time!

But got to keep calm, im training like a sycho at the mo but need to be careful easing back into the heavys not going to mad.. Got an appointment with some DL's myself this arvo.

Laterzzz

Kev

[AmanuJRY]

Andrew,

Interesting, this kind of learning is charachteristic of what I've been 'into' lately.

Just the other day I had a chance to chat with Dr. Fred Alan Wolf (http://www.fredalanwolf.com/) and he suggested the idea that there are four 'ways' (I think it was actually 5 but I can't remember the 5th) in which we perceive our universe; Thought (rational), Sense, Intuition, and Feeling (emotional).

I would think that we usually learn WC/WT via Sense (hands on, so to speak) and Thought, but to incorporate Intuition and Feeling into the learning cycle is interesting to me.

Your example I would interpet as a combination of Sensory and Intuitive learning.