Safe full contact sparring

[SAAMAG]

Personally guys, I've got no problems going into a sparring match with nothing more then a cup, mouthpiece, and some leather mitts (can't have too much padding or else the wing chun techniques are pretty much useless) pretty much like what the MMA guys wear. What we typically do is punch with enough force but pull the ones that we know will do a lot of damage, say for example if one was in a ground and pound situation, the guy doing the pounding would obviously not need to hit full out to let the guy on the bottom know he's in trouble....this has been working for my students and I, and the guys at the local club. But I would like to turn it up a notch...in which case the above mentioned gear would not suffice. Headgear covering the face would be necessary.

What gear do you all use to safely spar at a higher momentum? I don't want to use too much as that would lead to restriction of a lot of techniques...but at the same time I don't want to show up at work looking like the guys from "fight club".

So what are you all using and doing to accomplish this?
Where do we get that nifty headgear that I've seen in some clips that protects the front of the face with a "grate" type shield?

Thanks fellas.

[Knifefighter]

I like full face boxing headgear. Good face protection without too much false sense of security. Any head gear will get in the way once you start into grappling and ground work, but this type seems to be less obtrusive than head gear with shielding in the front. You can also wear racquetball goggles underneath when you want to train eye shots. Put on some elbow pads and you've got all your bases covered to be able to spar quite hard using all your tools.

[SAAMAG]

So then some boxing headgear and some elbow pads...along with my leather gloves,

Any particular brands for the headgear and elbow pads?

[Ravenshaw]

I wish most people had as much control as you do, Van... even with gloves on, some guys just haul out. There's no guarantee for safety... after all, we are trying to practice hurting people without doing it. I'd only use light gear for full contact if all involved were very experienced and controlled fighters. I don't think I'd even trust myself sparring full contact without a lot of padding.

I try sparring at different intensities with different amount of protection. This ranges from extremely controlled sparring drills with a cup on to san shou with full gear. I feel that this gives me the best overall experience.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I've gone the extra mile on the side of safety, Van. Been teaching 20 years...in addition to the usual bloody mouth, black eye, head ache, solar plexus shot that drops someone, more-than-occasional kicks to the groin (with sneakers on)...kicks and punches to the body and head that dropped someone like a sack of potatoes, and the like...I've either seen, dished out, or received things like: broken ribs, broken toes, knee damage (from a kick with heavy sneakers) that required orthroscopic surgery and a 6 month rehab...a partially torn rotator cuff (from an arm lock and throw)...and so on.

We now use relatively lightweight sneakers, headgear with a complete metal bar face-cage (it's actually a mask used in amateur hockey that I bought separately at a sporting goods store and attached to a standard martial arts headgear...so you won't take anything directly to the face - but the shock waves from full power strikes will definitely be felt)...chest protector, groin cup, shin and knee pads, thin elbow pads, and thin fingerless gloves.

When the fight goes to the ground - we always take off the headgear (and usually the chest protector as well)....and restart from the position as-it-was...with strikes (ie.- ground and pound) being thrown lightly.

I prefer to error on the side of caution - at this point.

Seen too many nasty injuries.

[Ernie]

for anthing full power [isolation] to the head . i use a motor cycle helmet

elbow pads and very light bag or fingerless gloves

just picked up some metal cage head gear but when i hit the guy it still folded the cage into his nose and he felt it !
i was wearing 16oz gloves

so i'm only going to use that stuff for light contact , just be cause they have gear you still got to hold back , if i had bombed him with a elbow the same way i hit the motor cycle helmet he would have gone to sleep

i didn't believe the guy when he told me so i put the stuff on and had some one light me up and i was toast for the rest of the day with a pounding head ache and neck and back pain ,

but then again i have not been sparring hard for a while so i might just be getting soft :D

[Airdrawndagger]

I use the MA helmets with the clear blast sheild, cup, shin pads, the open finger gloves (Chuck Norris gloves) and sometimes in class we will use the chest protectors. We rarely go to the ground, its mostly stand up with emphasis on techs.
The helmets i use have pretty good visibility but when you are breathing heavy the clear plastic gets foggy and breathing becomes more difficult, also i broke one during a match by punching it and I cant seem to figure out how to replace the sheild so its kind of a pain if you need to replace it.
Yesterday in class we were doing a circle drill (one person stands in the middle while surrounded by others and is randomly attacked) and we were not wearing pads! I kept saying that we need to be wearing pads if we are to be doing this but didn't get anywhere.
When you have people who are coming in on you 1, 2, 3 at a time you have to stop the excessive force by using excessive force, ie hit hard and of course you cant because no one is using gloves. I hate that. Its like we are pretending to spar, by pretending to attack. In this kind of instance usually the one who hits the other will stop with there attack and the other will fon-sau and the drill will repeat itself. But of course this didn't happen and they keep comming at you even though you "represent" that you have hit them......:confused:
Sorry just venting.....:D

[Airdrawndagger]

so I guess to get back on to topic that sort of drill is in my mind counter-productive and is not considered very 'safe'.

[SAAMAG]

Exactly! You will only know if it worked if you are able to hit with moderate to full force. That's my concern.

People are getting false results on both ends of the spectrum...and so I'm looking to try and have some workshops with some friends of mine that I used to train with years ago (back in high school) to see how we all fare. The only thing is getting a hold of all the gear that can fit everyone.

[Ludeviews]

Don't forget to slip that little bit more when wearing the headgear!

[Airdrawndagger]

If this isn't an oximoron then I dont know what is...

Do you know of any "full contact" interactions that are considered "safe"?
You can use safety equipment to be safer, but full contact sparring can never be safe. Otherwise its play fighting. Im not knocking the subject I just thought your choice of words were humous sounding.:D

[SAAMAG]

errr....safER full contact sparring? I guess that would be more apppropriate...

[RedJunkRebel]

Good thread Vankuen. I like the idea of the boxing headgear with either Kenpo gloves or the MMA gloves (as long as you still have use of your hands to pull). I haven't found elbow pads that don't get in the way of the ever-so-crucial lop sao roll over. We also use racquetball goggles for protection against eye gouges.

[phantom]

Has doing this kind of training ever affected your ability to get or keep a job? I think some of these injuries would hurt your ability to do a job. Thanks in advance.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by phantom
Has doing this kind of training ever affected your ability to get or keep a job? I think some of these injuries would hurt your ability to do a job. Thanks in advance. No more so than playing pickup hoops or roller hockey or mountain biking or snowboarding.

[Ernie]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
No more so than playing pickup hoops or roller hockey or mountain biking or snowboarding.

got in tons of fights playing hoop back in the day
broke my back mountain biking
broke my collar bone snowboarding

yet nothing broken or fights breaking out from sparring go figure :)

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey Ernie,
I hurt my back a while ago (pinched my sciatic (Sp?) nerve) and every once in a while it acts up. Nothing serious like a broken back but I'm curious what you did for your recovery.
Were there specific exercises to strengthen your back?
I've been fortunate to not have too many injuries but out of the ones that I've had, so far the back is the worst.
Anyways, if you've got any info that you can pass on that'd be cool.

J

[Ernie]

Originally posted by Jeff Bussey
Hey Ernie,
I hurt my back a while ago (pinched my sciatic (Sp?) nerve) and every once in a while it acts up. Nothing serious like a broken back but I'm curious what you did for your recovery.
Were there specific exercises to strengthen your back?
I've been fortunate to not have too many injuries but out of the ones that I've had, so far the back is the worst.
Anyways, if you've got any info that you can pass on that'd be cool.

J

bro , nothing specfic i work out my body evenly with wieghts ,
for my back , pull downs , rows, hammer t bar , but my money maker is stiff leg dead lifts [ more for legs ] but it hits the weak spots

now i mix this with stretching and explosive motion training

[Jeff Bussey]

I think I need more streching almost Yoga-like for my back.
thanks,

J

[fa_jing]

hey twisting poses from Yoga might be good, but clear it with your doctor first.

[Kevin Bell]

Hey Jeff,

Had some back problems myself, got knocked down by a car damaged some vertabrae/discs etc....

That darn sciatic nerve.. man that hurts.

Check out Pilates, Lady i go to who's taking me through the levels also trained at the chek institute.

Also, Weights for me heavy (as i can anyway) Cleans,squats,dl's etc along with core work on the swiss balls which obliterate the abs and TA's



Ernie,you ever get any reoccurin probs??

Ah stiff legged DL's Max effort day today lower body, early night for me tonight me thinks!

Still doing plyo's??

Later Chaps

Kev

[Ernie]

Ernie,you ever get any reoccurin probs??

nope back is fine , as for plyo's
a little when i coach guys i mix them in with some of the drills
but right now i'm just being lazy and getting fat ,
:(

hopefully in a few more months [[[I'LL BE BACK ]]]

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey Kev
Thanks.
I was all set to really get into a routine when my back acted up again. I haven't done anything for about 2 weeks and I'm dying here. Gonna have to start doing something otherwise I may freak out.
I find I get really cranky when I'm not training. I probably have issues cause when I'm going regularly, I'm really calm.

Maybe I'll start doing some swiss ball exercises, thanks for mentioning that cause I forgot that I have one.

:)

J

[Kevin Bell]

Hey Jeff,

You have my symapathies buddy back pain suks big time!!!

Good place to start stabilisers. Get those tranverse abs activated and switched on. So pelvic tilt exercises to start then the variations from that.

After that move to the mobilsers back muscles use youre swiss ball and do alternating superman exercise (type these into google under pilates exercise if not sure). If you do weights use your swiss ball as much as possible so for me when i got an upper body day in the gym and i move to the assistance exercise after the main bench press i may do DB chest press laid on the swiss ball to incorporate the hips to balance.

Thinking about movement in VT (regardless of any lineage cause i couldnt give a ****) core exercises are the place to start IMO linking upper body to lower body etc etc

Then when back to fully fit and in your old gym routine remember to still incorporate these exercises into you're routine.

Hope all goes well buddy.

Try the NSCA some free articles to browse through

http://www.nsca-lift.org/Perform/article.asp?ArticleID=144


[[but right now i'm just being lazy and getting fat]]

Ernie my friend, im at last minute flight . com trying to find a ticket to get over and fire that hunger back up. Spare a thought for me that whilst your sat there in the warm sun tomorrow i got a freezing cycle ride to to work-gym-run then cycle back home..

BP as of today 100/60
Rest HRATE 51 bpm
188 pounds.

[Ernie]

Ernie my friend, im at last minute flight . com trying to find a ticket to get over and fire that hunger back up. Spare a thought for me that whilst your sat there in the warm sun tomorrow i got a freezing cycle ride to to work-gym-run then cycle back home..


you sir remind me of me a few years ago , now i'm getting sweedish massages , drinking wine and smoking cuban cigars
hell if i get pot belly i might end up a sifu after all :D :D :D

[Jeff Bussey]

Thanks again Kev,
I need something to keep the devil from crossing over to my side of the street
:D

J

[iblis73]

Hey Van, back when I trained at Parkers I bought a set of knee/elbow pad from a sporting goods store. They were black and have been quite good. Some of those stores have good stuff even though its non MA.

I would also look at doing full contact reaction drills and having your partner w/full headgear/boxing gloves and you with lighter gloves and full headgear. This allows em to really go after you.

I would also start working on a LOT of upper back/shoulder and neck strength exercises. This is what will cushion a sharp blow.