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dre_doggX
10-08-2001, 02:36 AM
Tell me what are some advantages wing chun kungfu has over chen style taijiquan and taijiquan in general.

Andre Lashley

Martial Joe
10-08-2001, 03:01 AM
Well...you advance pretty quikly...

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif IXIJoe KaveyIXIhttp://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif
I am Sharky's main man...

dlew308
10-08-2001, 03:10 AM
try em both and pick which you prefer

joy chaudhuri
10-08-2001, 05:13 AM
Andre: An important thing in martial arts is
the quality of the instructor in addition to the
motivation of the student. If you find a first class taiji instructor compared to a third rate wing chun instruction-go for the former- all other things being equal(such as not having a clear prefernce). The reverse is also true. The problem often is that good instructors are available only via occasional seminars. Not as good a way of learning when compared to regular instruction and correction. One of the problems with taiji is that so much of the instruction has moved away from real self defense application.
For me wing chun is better though I respect Chen style. It takes longer in taiji to learn intense close quarters work IMO.
Joy Chaudhuri

EmptyCup
10-08-2001, 06:07 AM
Chen style is more combat orientated. Yang and Wu styles are more for relaxation and health. Tai Chi for combat application takes many more years than combat readiness in Wing Chun, and thats provided that your Tai Chi instructor teaches you how to USE it for fighting. Most Tai Chi teachers don't openly teach students how to apply the techniques for the streets and the ones that do never used it for real and their teachers probably never used it for real either. Tai Chi has for such a long time been practiced only for exercise and health that combat is practically lost or secondary now. Wing Chun, on the other hand has always been used for STRICTLY combat and not for health or asthetically pleasing reasons (our forms are too ugly ;) )

Tai Chi has an efficient stance though...instead of moving in, you can just lean forward when attacking...and the elbows are out, not as in as Wing Chun so you're more open.

For fighting I'd choose Wing Chun over Tai Chi. Blending the two for combat will be pretty hard too. I do Wing Chun and grappling for the streets and tai chi for the backyard and parks :)

EmptyCup
10-08-2001, 07:05 AM
thrusting fingers and the mount make quite good partner training exercise :D

... :o

...but sticky hands is just plain gross...

Ars vitae
10-08-2001, 08:55 AM
BWA HA HA HA AH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!! ;)

I find that a blend of Tai chi and Wing Tsun quite interesting, because personally I find it works together well, when thinking about certain concepts, during training, but during application, sometimes things go out the window when I have to spar, Wing Tsun principal's normally come through.

kj
10-08-2001, 01:12 PM
I agree with your points, especially regarding the value of a good teacher.

I have high regard for well practiced and executed Chen's Taiji. With possible exceptions, I believe that Chen's generally requires more time before practical application can be expected. Whereas Wing Chun [as I know it] emphasizes simplicity, Chen's Taiji is technically more comple. Note, I did not say more profound. Some elements of Chen's Taiji can also be too hard on the joints for someone [like me] with arthritis or other joint anomalies. All arts have advantages and disadvantages.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

joy chaudhuri
10-08-2001, 03:28 PM
Thanks Kathy Jo.Looks like fairly civil discussions and
airing of views thus far here. Hope it stays that way.
--------------------------------------------------
We are in agreement on taiji and wing chun.I have been exposed to great versions of both.A bad teacher can ruin the understanding of a great style.If someone could learn REGULARLY from Chen Xiao Wang for some I would say go for it. But he basically does the seminar circuit in the US. All things being equal...which they always arent-
advantage wing chun. But their body mechanics are quite different and in some areas, mutually exclusive IMO. Joy Chaudhuri :D

kj
10-08-2001, 04:25 PM
Looks like I dropped an "x". To avoid misunderstanding, I meant to write that Chen's Taiji is technically more complex [than Wing Chun]. Not more complete, nor profound. Guess I need spell check too. ;)

Kaitain(UK)
10-08-2001, 05:20 PM
I don't think they work well together

I train with a few WC guys (Samuel Kwok lineage) - one of them trains Taiji with me (6 years WC/1 year Yang Taiji).
He found the following:

1)his Chui Sau in Wing Chun became superior to that of the other students at his level because the Taiji made him softer than they were. He also developed a strong root that the others do not have. But...

2)his instructor was softer and more rooted than him despite only training WC - my friend had taken a short cut that made him better than his equivalents - but he worries that he missed an important period of 'learning to be soft' and 'learning to root' through WC practice.

3)WC favours a range that is alien to Taiji - Taiji lends itself to grappling, WC is more focussed on striking. He found that his Taiji couldn't work because he was loathe to change ranges the way Taiji does.
WC is kick/*hand/*elbow/get out -
Taiji is kick/*hand/*elbow/*shoulder/*grapple.
* denotes favoured range

I'm not saying WC doesn't do that - I'm saying that it doesn't encourage it. Obviously I don't train WC so this is mostly supposition from conversations with my WC friends.

4) Yielding - Taiji yielding is different to WC yielding. Can't explain this to well - sorry.

5) Taiji really helped with his WC by explaining concepts in a different way. He realised that the elbow placement for Tan Sau (I think - the palm up sort of cutting move) was to enable efficient energy transfer of an opponents force and to prevent his own structure from collapsing, to better root the energy for issuing and receiving. The analytical nature of Taiji practice has helped him understand these things better. He maintains that they come with time anyway, but that through understanding the principle in Taiji he was able to improve far faster.

For the first 6 months we were fine in pushing hands sparring (striking/kicks/breaking off if desired etc) - I was always better (because we were using Taiji style 'open' pushing hands) but he was getting through to me. However, the last 6 months have seen things go badly wrong for him - as my yielding and listening has improved he barely gets through now at all. He feels like he is fighting a net - wherever he applies energy he finds nothing but an attack from elsewhere.

I have got better whilst he is not progressing. We discussed it at length on Friday and realised that the problem is the Chui Sao in WC trains forward energy - when exercising with Taiji push hands this is something that can easily be taken advantage of (it is quite an obvious energy) but he can't not do what is ingrained from his WC. We found that training the 'wiggly gung' that I criticised so heavily in the 'good site' thread gave him the best results for months because he was unable to draw any similiarity to WC push hands.

It is a result of two different training methods that are close enough that they overlap and cause problems. I don't believe one is better than the other - they just confuse each other.

Taiji can definitely be trained as a sideline to supplement another art - as long as you train it with that purpose in mind. I don't think it mixes very well as an equal.

Last note - don't limit yourself to a set Taiji style before you've looked for instruction in your area. Every style has great as well as awful instructors - find the best instructor you can (recommendations etc). Chen may be the most combat minded but if you train it with a charlatan it'll be worthless.

Just my thoughts - and most definitely not an attack on WC.

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

wujidude
10-08-2001, 07:09 PM
Nice to see you in here, Dr. Chaudhuri. I just finished your old article from JAMA on "Defending the Mother Line" last night. For those who may not know, Dr. Chaudhuri has some experience with Chen style taijiquan.

Another Wing Chun teacher who has experience with Chen style taijiquan and is actively incorporating some of what he's learned is Kenneth Chung, who actively maintains contact with some of the top people in Chen style, including Feng Zhiqiang, Chen Xiaowang and Chen Qingzhou. The following article talks about his initial experience in meeting a Chen style master:

from http://www.bawcsa.org/bio/KenNFZQ.html
"Feng Zhiqiang and Kenneth Chung
Feng Zhiqiang is the vice president of the Beijing Municipal Arts Association and president of the Beijing Municipal Chen-style Taijiquan Research Institute. He is also the head of Huaxia Martial Arts Club with the FESCO International Training Center.
Feng Zhiqiang was born in 1926 and is a well-known master of Chen-style Taijiquan. He was a student of Chen Fake, the 17th generation direct descendent of Chen-style Taijiquan. Chen Fake brought the Chen system to more general "modern" awareness in 1928. In 1928 he began to teach Old Style Number One and paochi or "Cannon Fist" to students in Beijing. Feng Zhi Qiang the person Chen Fa Ke would use in his personal two-man Taiji demonstrations. Feng Zhiqiang, therefore, is considered a "high hand" in the art of Chen Taiji. In his youth, Feng Zhiqiang studied Tongbei and Liu He Xingyiquan from Han Xiaofeng and Hu Yaozhen, respectively. Through intensive training with Chen Fake, Feng Zhiqiang mastered the grappling, throwing, and shaking-strength skills of Chen-style Taijiquan.

He is also a coauthor (along with Feng Dabiao and Chen Xiaowang) of one of the few English books on Chen Taiji. This book is entitled Chen Style Taijiquan, published by Hai Feng in 1984.

Chen Changxing, Chen Fake's grandfather is the Chen who taught the Chen system to Yang Lu Chan, the subsequent founder of Yang Taiji. Yang Lu Chan, who was very proficient, became very prominent in the elevation of Taiji within Chinese culture. Chen Zhaoxu, Xiaowang's father, was understood to be, of course, a prominent student of Chen Fake as well.

Chen Xiaowang is the 19th generation standard bearer for Chen Taiji.


The Beijing Wu Shu group came to San Francisco in 1985 to have an exhibition. The head coach of the group was Wu Bin, and the leader was Mr. Chiang. Most of the 28 members of the team were in their 20's. Feng Zhiqiang, also a member of the team, was in his late 50's.

Y. C. Wong introduced Ken to Feng Zhiqiang in his 8th floor, Grand Avenue hotel room. Their conversation ranged from Martial Arts to Kung Fu to sensitivity. At this point, Feng Zhiqiang invited everyone in the room to touch his hands. Present were the following martial artists: Ben Der, Y.C. Wong, Eddie Chong, Kenneth Chung, possibly Sidney Wong, and some other SF martial artists.

Prior to this meeting, Ken had been diligently trying to "abandon" the power he had developed prior to his "benching" by Leung Sheung. Ken had, to this point, spent nine to 10 years getting "soft." When Ken's turn came, Ken touched Feng Zhiqiang, but finding no openings in Feng Zhiqiang's area, subsequently, would not want to go in. Feng Zhiqiang invited Ken to use more energy. Ken politely refused. Feng Zhiqiang continued to invite Ken in, and Ken continued to refuse. Finally, Feng Zhiqiang said that he couldn't show Ken what he wanted to show him unless he gave Feng Zhiqiang more energy. Ken felt at this point that he was at the limit of his "soft" energy. Feng Zhiqiang continued to encourage him to use more power, so Ken, did as Feng Zhiqiang requested.

Before he knew it, Ken said his hands were on the floor to his left. Feng Zhiqiang did this move two or three times to Ken. Then Feng Zhiqiang said he wanted to show Ken something different. Feng Zhiqiang then landed Ken on the bed two or three times. Ken said that he wasn't "tossed" but more like "placed." That is, he had the distinct impression that Feng Zhiqiang was "throwing" him in such a controlled fashion that Ken would land particularly when he landed on the bed.

One has to be at a certain proficiency level in their own style and have an open mind to really appreciate this functional placement. Ken had met many taiji people by this time, including Chen styles, and had yet to find compatible hands. Feng Zhiqiang stood out without question, opening Ken's eyes. He provided the right and perfect feeling that led Ken to experience more of the Chen style. Ken took him as a mentor in Martial Art.

To have a chance to touch Feng Zhiqiang's hands in this manner was heaven to Ken. After the meeting, Ken was totally enlightened and couldn't close his eyes for the next two nights. They met again three days later. Ken found out more about this master. However, Ken was not trying to learn Chen's Taiji. He just wanted to be close to the master and share his experience and insight within Martial art.

It's no surprise that some people mistook Ken to be dying for Taiji. Only those at a higher level of Martial Art understand -- to capture the essence of an art takes a life time search. Ken spent his time in Wing Chun and that enhanced his ability to admire a wonderful Chen's style master like Feng Zhiqiang.

Aside: to remind some monkeys out there -- don't count on your being a natural to pick this up easily, even if you are in Chen style. It took a visit by Chen Xiaowang for some Chen style monkeys to discover how beautiful their style's "internal energy" can be. There are quite a few monkeys in different countries who happen to be self-claimed masters, playing at being an authority figure way too often. They met with Chen Xiaowang briefly in Australia in 1995. Ken, a Wing Chun stylist, acknowledged this beauty and internal energy some ten years ago with Feng Zhiqiang in San Francisco, and with Chen Xiaowang in Xian, China.

That's what happened in the first meeting between Ken and Feng Zhiqiang. Later, one of Ken's "students" was with Feng Zhiqiang, and asked Feng Zhiqiang what he thought about this upstart's hands. Now, such a question coming from a teacher's student would have been the height of disrespect. The relationship between Ken and this "student," this student's age, and the student's relationship with Feng Zhiqiang, presented a unique opportunity. This allowed for the question to be asked without disrespect and without divulging the student's relationship to Ken.

Feng Zhiqiang's comment about Ken was, "He has very good listening energy." This was such a wonderful comment from Feng Zhiqiang and meant a tremendous amount to Ken. This compliment dwarfed all the good comments and flattering for all those past years from different martial artists, some of which are from his own clan in Wing Chun. Now, Ken knew he was and still is on the right path."

joy chaudhuri
10-08-2001, 11:33 PM
"2)his instructor was softer and more rooted than him despite only training WC - my friend had taken a short cut that made him better than his equivalents - but he worries that he missed an important period of 'learning to be soft' and 'learning to root' through WC practice.

3)WC favours a range that is alien to Taiji - Taiji lends itself to grappling, WC is more focussed on striking. He found that his Taiji couldn't work because he was loathe to change ranges the way Taiji does.
WC is kick/*hand/*elbow/get out -
Taiji is kick/*hand/*elbow/*shoulder/*grapple.
* denotes favoured range"
------------------------------------------------
I realise the honest nature of your comparison and comment. However-good wing chun does whatever is needed but from its unique structure and motion.
It is not limited to kick, hand and elbow. Also good wing chun doesnt limit itself to "favorite" techniques.
joy chaudhuri

kj
10-09-2001, 03:53 AM
Hello Wujidude.

Are you a student of Ken's? I study under Ken, and wonder if perhaps we know each other - I am Kathy Jo Connors. Regardless, it is nice to cross paths with you. :)

There is one detail or clarification I would like to offer regarding your summary and article reference on Ken's exposure to Chen's Taiji. Ken has observed some similarities between Wing Chun and Chen's Taiji, but does not "actively incorporate" taiji into his Wing Chun. He is consistent and clear that he learned what he knows and gained his skill through the practice of Wing Chun alone, and not through practice or incorporation of Taiji. As you shared, Ken indeed has many friends and acquaintances in Taiji, and thus some understanding of their art. I have had the unearned privilege to meet some of them, and even the brief opportunity of visiting Chen Qingzhou's home and school. That doesn't render me an expert of course, but at least a legitimate observer. :)

Similarly, Ken has many friends and acquaintances in other martial arts, as well as throughout the Wing Chun community. As a result, he has the benefit of broad perspective and insights not limited to Taiji. I particularly enjoy his occasional imitations of Eagle Claw and Choy Li Fut energy and techniques. His renditions are realistic enough that I rue the day I should ever have to contend with something like that. :eek:

I know that some of Ken's students elect to practice multiple arts, and a few have since devoted their practice entirely to Taiji. However, by Ken's own admission, he has never undertaken the practice of Taiji, or other martial arts other than Wing Chun. He confesses with good-natured jocularity that he does not even know the simplest of Chen's forms.

His excitement surrounding his encounters with Feng, Chen Xiaowang, Master Cai, and others was in discovering and observing some similarities between what he found naturally through his practice and study of Wing Chun, and what those high level practitioners can demonstrate. It was not a causal relationship in which he learned something new and different with which to alter Wing Chun. Equally important is that there are some observable dissimilarities between Taiji and Wing Chun. As the article you cite states:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>"It's no surprise that some people mistook Ken to be dying for Taiji. Only those at a higher level of Martial Art understand -- to capture the essence of an art takes a life time search. Ken spent his time in Wing Chun and that enhanced his ability to admire a wonderful Chen's style master like Feng Zhiqiang." [italics are mine - kj][/quote]

For context, and though not in the article cited, Ken was also thrilled in recent years to be reunited with some Wing Chun brethren, and to learn that they too have continued similarly in their growth and development. This despite their delta in miles and years, and without similar exposure to Chen's Taiji. Their common framework for development was what they learned from Leung Sheung, and in turn from Ip Man. [For benefit of those who may not know, Leung Sheung was an accomplished martial artist before undertaking Wing Chun, but not in Chen's Taiji.]

Ken has and continues to improve his skill and understanding in Wing Chun, as all exponents of the art would rightly strive to do. It is inevitable that one's personal growth will be reflected in their practice and teaching. Knowing something of Ken's background, and noting observable differences from some other Wing Chun exponents, it is easy to misinterpret a causal relationship. As teacher and friend, I have heard Ken address the Taiji assertion and discussed it with him numerous times. I understand and appreciate his wish to preserve Wing Chun, not to change it or attempt "improvement." My POV and insights, for whatever they are worth.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[This message was edited by kj on 10-09-01 at 07:20 PM.]

[This message was edited by kj on 10-09-01 at 07:22 PM.]

wujidude
10-10-2001, 05:48 PM
Thanks. No, I haven't met nor do I study with Ken Chung. Having practiced Chen taijiquan, I was just interested in the exchange he had with Feng Zhiqiang and Chen Xiaowang (and Chen Qingzhou as well). As your quote shows, the article I copied to this thread actually does make it clear that Ken is not immersing himself in Chen taiji . . . just that he found it illuminating in its use of receiving/listening "energies".

I've got family in the Rochester area. Next time I'm out that way I'll give you a heads-up by e-mail; maybe I can stop by class for a visit.

reneritchie
10-10-2001, 06:05 PM
I think Joy (nice to see you here as well, btw) made several very good points on this already but FWIW, Wing Chun Kuen, as I learned it, has no problem encouraging the touch/throw paradigm. There's a saying that while hits can be contested, if the opponent is left laying on the ground, there's no question.

There's a lot of diversity in both Taijiquan and Wing Chun Kuen, of course, so any comparison may be difficult beyond specific individuals. Things like constant forward pressure (as opposed to intent), are not universally held.

In general, if training two arts that both focus on softness, sensitivity, and reflex, yet do so with different mechanics, I'd be curious to know if the body suffers from the split approach (not having a "default" instilled to use when under stress).

Rgds,

RR

Universal Stance
10-10-2001, 06:21 PM
They are very different. Chen style as very low stances that constantly shift weight between legs. Punching comes from the waist, there's silk-reeling, jump kicks, stomping, a full body energy moving and redirectly. I studied under Ren GuangYi who is a disciple of Chen Xiao Wang.

Wing Chun is upright with the energy and redirect in the arms and shifting of the direction of the stance. It's faster in practicing and is generally more external than taiji. Very straight to the point system vs. a more classical taiji feel. Here I studying under both one of Sigung William Cheung's students and Master Alan Lee (not wushu's Alan Lee; Yip Man's student).

Those are the outward differences (some). Many more external and internal differences. What I liked about Chen style is that the forms (5) are very long but vary in tempo, especially the last two, and look like shaolin or wushu in movement.

Unlike some other taiji styles, Chen focuses on have a yang strong lower body (low stances and stomping) and a yin supple upper body (silk reeling and whipping power) rather than a hard inner body and a soft outer body.

Finally Chen style is considered the most martial (and external) of the taiji styles.

"**** it's cold out here to be practicing."

kj
10-11-2001, 01:15 AM
"Next time I'm out that way I'll give you a heads-up by e-mail."

I would welcome your message, in case we can arrange to meet. FWIW, there is a nice group of Chen's folks in this area also, training privately much as we do. I'd be glad to help connect you if interested, and assuming you don't already know them. :)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

joy chaudhuri
10-11-2001, 03:45 AM
Hi Wujidude: Thanks. My off list email to you bounced!Hi KJ; Good to "see" you. Hi: Rene.This seems to be a better list than the flotsam of the ex- VTAA listHi:
Universal Stance- Ren Guang Yi is a good taiji person-so you have had some good exposure to that art apparently.Back to Kaitan's point- a reiteration. It is a mistake to regard wing chun as only a striking art or being effective only at a single range.The yee gee kim yeung ma when done right involves great stabilization and chi sao when sufficiently done develops the "listening energy" for reading the other person including their stability. "Throwing" is deeply embedded in Chinese MA history. Different styles like taji and wc simply approach it using different structures.Silk reeling in one-chor ma in the other.To whipping hands question-after trapping in certain cases when the timing and opportunity is right you can "throw" a person down
and the ground will be your anvil and cooperating friend.How to trap? best shown!
((PS Is there a spell check button for this bulletin board/list?)) :confused:

Sihing73
10-11-2001, 03:47 AM
Hi Joy,

Sorry no spell check. Alternatively you can type in Word or a similar program and do a spell check then paste it here.

Of ocurse, I can't spell and cutting and pasting is soo much tribble. :D

Peace,

Dave :p

Kaitain(UK)
10-11-2001, 09:42 AM
I'm saying that it's not covered to the same degree as it is Taiji (in the respective forms)

I get the impression that throwing/grappling is a last resort in WC - the preference is to destroy the opponent before it gets to that stage. Just my perception of an art I don't study :) - feel free to clarify...

Taiji doesn't cover fist/elbow striking to the same degree (in terms of forms - individual practice is what you make of it). If I spar with WC people and I let them keep that range on me I get pasted - equally if I get to close grappling range then they get pasted. It's quite good fun - they get thrown to the floor vs me getting a split lip (again).

I don't see it either a deficiency of WC or an advantage of Taiji - just a difference in emphasis.

One point of correction - our elbows are out but we aren't open. It's a common misconception that WC people have when they look at Taiji pushing hands - it's just different. You may think you could go through the middle like a train but you'd be surprised that it isn't that simple. It's kind of like someone saying "WC guys keep their elbows in so I could hook them easily" - you'd find that funny I'm sure :)

Nice discussion...

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

reneritchie
10-11-2001, 06:28 PM
I think some branches may just have different emphasis. In the branch I study, we value close body fighting methods. There are some examples up at http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/sequences.shtml

Rgds,

RR

joy chaudhuri
10-11-2001, 08:31 PM
A clarification per your suggestion and also like you no suggestion of automatic suoeriority of one art over another: I am not in your area, so I dont know who you "spar" with and what wing chun you have seen.Good wing chun is as close quartered as any art that I have seen. Also I was unclear on your comment on taiji elbows. Chen taiji has very good elbow work.