Where's the Martial?

[BaldMonk]

This may be something that has been done to death on this board. Let me know if it has because I go for weeks at a time without checking to see what's going on.

Why is it the teachers like Novell Bell and Tim Cartmell seem to be the exception rather than the rule in CMA? Freestyle sparring and/or full contact sparring are ignored in favor of two man rehearsed drills and forms. A commonly held belief is that kung fu people can't fight. Many people I speak to can't or won't spar agiainst people from different schools or different styles. Conditioning is often non existent. Most of my sparring partners are from Japanese and Korean styles. There's a difference in martial culture. These guys have always been willing to mix it up but the traditional CMA's...

Just venting.

Peace
BaldMonk

[Water Dragon]

Go see the Shuai Chiao guys if you want to be proven wrong.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by BaldMonk
This may be something that has been done to death on this board. Let me know if it has because I go for weeks at a time without checking to see what's going on.

Why is it the teachers like Novell Bell and Tim Cartmell seem to be the exception rather than the rule in CMA? Freestyle sparring and/or full contact sparring are ignored in favor of two man rehearsed drills and forms. A commonly held belief is that kung fu people can't fight. Many people I speak to can't or won't spar agiainst people from different schools or different styles. Conditioning is often non existent. Most of my sparring partners are from Japanese and Korean styles. There's a difference in martial culture. These guys have always been willing to mix it up but the traditional CMA's...

Just venting.

Peace
BaldMonk

lkfmdc will proove you wrong too

[Water Dragon]

And William CC Chen as well.

[Ray Pina]

There are definitely CMA schools that fight. At my master's school, we do no forms. Boxing gloves, head gear .... these are a must .... they're used every class.

[Akhilleus]

And if those don't work out for you Sun Tzu (the forum member) can prove you wrong...

[PangQuan]

Personally I dont care if people think Wushu/GongFu guys cant fight, they can step up and bring it to me if they want, I will show them different. I am sure many other CMA practitioners feel the same way. Who truly cares about what other people think. This reminds me of some good ol' Lao Tzu, or was it Chuang Tzu, any how ;
"You should not be concerned about whether others know that you have skill, you should be worried about whether you really have it"

ie; practice, learn, grow, and experience and then when some fool says you cant fight with your kung fu show him different.

Like I always say, Its not he martial art that makes the man, its the man that makes the martial art, period, regardless of style, traditionality or time period.

[Akhilleus]

Here is a pic of kung fu sparring that I found on the 'net...

http://www.kungfula.com/img/block-laugh-10-large.jpg


also I read about some guys in IKF known as Team Evergreen...

"Team Evergreen takes great pride in smashing the karate stereotype of kung-fu competitors as pretty gymnastic performers by demonstrating hard-hitting Shaolin Eagle Claw forms on the floor and hitting them hard in the ring" (from said article)

[BaldMonk]

Thanks for the responses I just needed that feedback. I'm in the boondocks you know. Just for the record I prove anyone who steps in front of me on the mat wrong also. Pang Quan, I feel what you're saying and freely admit that it's an ego thing on my part in wanting more schools to do things the way I want them to do it. That ain't right on my part but it's real. Evolution Fist who's your teacher?

Peace
BMonk

[Akhilleus]

Monk,
I hear people within the cma community say that a lot, and sure there are schools that don't fight much, but most of these schools don't go around claiming to be the toughest cats in the world, ok some do, but I have found that in Japanese martial arts as well...in fact maybe even more so...I think it since we practice cma we feel like it is a problem unique to our community but as I have said, I have seen it elsewhere...maybe part of the problem is that not many tcma guys have been in events such as UFC/Pride/K-1...except Jason Deluca

[PangQuan]

Akhilleus,

Good points. I think a big part that kung fu men dont really compete in those types of events are

1) TCMA are brutal, deadly and the combat qualities are created and intended to cause death. NOT for entertainment, thats where modern wushu comes from. It is the only gong fu that is for sport.

2) The mentality behind TCMA is very more on a defence based level. We, traditionally speaking in regards to spiritual beliefs, dont cause violence, we reject it. We give the violent action back to the attacker causing him as much harm as was intended.

When someone thinks that wushu people cannot fight tell them about Chen Zhen, Wong Feh Hung, Yip Man, Bruce Lee. I know for a fact that there are TCMA masters out there that are so bad you would not believe. My master is one of them. He does not fight, he used to but now he doesnt, but i can guarantee you that if you bring it to him he will drop you so fast youll forget that your fighting. Its not about image, its about the self, looking within and finding who you truly are. screw fighting other people, can you beat yourself?

[gfx]

Originally posted by PangQuan
Akhilleus,

Good points. I think a big part that kung fu men dont really compete in those types of events are

1) TCMA are brutal, deadly and the combat qualities are created and intended to cause death. NOT for entertainment, thats where modern wushu comes from. It is the only gong fu that is for sport.

2) The mentality behind TCMA is very more on a defence based level. We, traditionally speaking in regards to spiritual beliefs, dont cause violence, we reject it. We give the violent action back to the attacker causing him as much harm as was intended.

When someone thinks that wushu people cannot fight tell them about Chen Zhen, Wong Feh Hung, Yip Man, Bruce Lee. I know for a fact that there are TCMA masters out there that are so bad you would not believe. My master is one of them. He does not fight, he used to but now he doesnt, but i can guarantee you that if you bring it to him he will drop you so fast youll forget that your fighting. Its not about image, its about the self, looking within and finding who you truly are. screw fighting other people, can you beat yourself?

Hm, well I think you are missing the forest for the trees.
First and foremost, CMA is a MARTIAL art. It's a method of combating with another human being. But is it too deadly to spar with? Of course not, that's been discussed to death here. You don't want to gouge out your buddy's eyeball? Well don't. The most important aspect of sparring as a form of practice is mindset. As long as you recognize that the possibility exists when you spot the opening, then it's fine. You simply cannot advance by doing purely partner forms/drills. It's kind of like doing all the math exercises in the book, but never use it to solve word problems.

As for CMA being defensive and peaceful. Well no, there are as many behaviour patterns in CMA as there are practitioners. Tons of styles are attack oriented. There's an old sayings in Chinese "Xian xia shou wei qiang" (the first to attack will be stronger) or "Xia fa zhi ren" (attack first and restrain the opponent). CMA is taught defensively first have more to do with socialogical reasons. It's important to separate spirituality with martial arts. Spirituality is the guideline of one's moral, but martial art is just a tool. You can use your martial arts according to YOUR spirituality, but remember not everyone share your moral.

It's also absurd to say you are trying to beat yourself with martial art. If you want to achieve enlightenment, martial arts is not the way. MA is something you use to beat other people. Don't hide behind the names of past masters. Their skills were achieved through their own efforts, that has nothing to do with you. Can you, if not fight, but defend yourself with confidence with your own skill?

[PangQuan]

Good points, yet i was not reffering to sparring the events in name were fighting events, ufc you do not "sparr" you fight. And I see your point about using restraint, but at the same time the most effective qualities and techniques of Wushu are illegal to use in those rings. I hide behind no ones names. Those are examples of people who have proven to the world that Wushu is capable of combat, to be used as a reffence point for non believers. And personally I do use my martial arts as a partial guide to "fight" myself, determination, self discapline, mental relaxation, and personal realization are all qualities that I polish with my daily practice of my wushu. Sure I can use my gong fu to defend myself, of course there are those who are far beyond my level but at the same time there are those whos level is far below mine, its a spectrum of many colors and there are many sides that one does not need to believe in for them to be true. Just because you dont believe in gravity does not make it any less real.

[Ray Pina]

I study with Master David Bond Chan.
http://www.chan-internal-martial-arts.com/

He's a very knowledgable and skilled man; very open minded. He welcomes everyone and likes to see everything.

[Pork Chop]

Originally posted by Akhilleus
And if those don't work out for you Sun Tzu (the forum member) can prove you wrong...

j- wouldn't consider u or i big slouches in that regard either. :p

[Akhilleus]

Let's not sell ourselves short E, we are tremendous slouches (Caddyshack)...yeah we are a couple of traditional cats that don't mind sparring as long as it's all fun and games I don't go in much for that challenge crap...BTW just got back from rollin' with Chris...

[Akhilleus]

1) TCMA are brutal, deadly and the combat qualities are created and intended to cause death. NOT for entertainment, thats where modern wushu comes from. It is the only gong fu that is for sport.

2) The mentality behind TCMA is very more on a defence based level. We, traditionally speaking in regards to spiritual beliefs, dont cause violence, we reject it. We give the violent action back to the attacker causing him as much harm as was intended.
.

Ah, so TCMA is more for achieving peace and spiritual harmony, with its techniques that are too deadly and brutal for the ring, whereas Royce Gracies technique, which allowed him to win multiple UFC's w/o seriously hurting anyone, is not nearly as spiritually profound...

Sorry I don't buy the excuse that Kung fu guys don't compete for spiritual/safety/merciful reasons... because plenty of kung fu guys DO compete, then go on to brag about which big tournies they have one...notice they are usually tournaments where there only competition was other kung fu guys...(and yes I am sure there are plenty of exceptions, I am just referring to the kung fu people I know)...oh but I am forgetting, what about Wong Fei Hung? oh and Yip Man and Bruce Lee...what about them?

[Pork Chop]

Did he rub his "cat" all over you again as an excuse to get you in the shower after doing a whole lot of sweaty huggin & rollin around on the ground in his basement? :p :D




I don't mind the "unfriendly" stuff so much- a lot of times it's a heck of a lot more honest.

[Akhilleus]

Did he rub his "cat" all over you again as an excuse to get you in the shower after doing a whole lot of sweaty huggin & rollin around on the ground in his basement?

My allergies were killing me coz I hadn't been there in so long but I took it like a man...it was me chris and this other dude...they owned me...but the cat was the worst...I don't really mind though, cause after I go over there a couple more times it won't bother me...and the huggin was good...

[Akhilleus]

As for the unfriendly stuff...I will only fight for a few things...and ego isn't one of them...

[David Jamieson]

blah blah blah...tell it to my shins, my bruised instep and my aching forearms.

kungfu guys can't fight.:rolleyes:

whatever.

[Wharg0ul]

the problem is that too many shcools focus on how Kung-fu looks, and turn it into an acrobatic display.

But there are schools, such as mine, who give you PLENTY of hands-on opportunities to work on applying your forms and techniques. If someone tells me that kung-fu fighters can't fight, they'd best be ready for a lesson.

True kung-fu isn't a very good ring/tourny sport though. Who wants to watch 1 or three hit fights? :D

[Pork Chop]

ssshhhhhhhhh don't tell.....
http://www.jiayo.com/videos/86_leitai.mov

:D

[MeatTosser]

**** man, nice video footage of 1986 Lei Tai fights. Where'd you get it? Any more footage would be plenty welcome!

[Pork Chop]

I pilfered it shamelessly from the Northern Praying Mantis board on this forum. :D

[Wharg0ul]

yeah, that was a sweet vid. I happened to have a bunch of people in the room when I watched it....made for great entertainment :D

[Akhilleus]

True kung-fu isn't a very good ring/tourny sport though. Who wants to watch 1 or three hit fights?

Me. And I don't think I am the only one. When there is a quick knockout in the competitions that I have seen, usually people cheer.

[Reggie1]

I'd have to say I love the 1 hit fights as well.

Anybody remember how popular Tyson's fights were back in the old days when all of them were about 90 seconds long?

[Wharg0ul]

But you have to admit...it doesn't really appeal to the mass media the way boxing or wresting does.

I also enjoy short, technically correct fights. But those don't fill a sunday afternoon the way typical arm-chair pilots prefer. you can't drink enough beer during the fight, for example :D

[MeatTosser]

Hahaha, exactly.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Wharg0ul
True kung-fu isn't a very good ring/tourny sport though. Who wants to watch 1 or three hit fights? Theoretical non-fighters think they can end a fight in just a few hits. While that does occasionally happen, people who actually fight know that is the exception.

[Wharg0ul]

or people who spar and fight on a regular basis, who have developed good opening technique. Or even a fight where one participant's style/system is so superior that it unbalances the fight to extremes.
Then of course, you can get lucky, or just manage to gain surprise.

[David Jamieson]

human beings are pretty resilient and rarely go down in one or two shots.

I'm sorry to say, but anyone who tells you that a technique will allow you to do that even a majority of the time is delusional about their own ability and the particular technique.

text book almost never translates to reality.

On the other side of the coin, I would say that "reality" fighters for the most part have crappy form, crappy technique and general thrash and flail about like idiots and because they beat on others and get beat on, think they are one up on those who spend more time on the esoteric stuff.

so, both corners have their share of nonsense.

There are very few reality fighters who are any good and those that are generally have tasted from codified systems and are not random at all in their approach to fighting. Or, they are innately talented.

there are also just as few classically trained people who can fight.

truth of the matter is, you can't swim if you don't go in the water and you can't swim long without proper swimming technique.

suck it up.

[Wharg0ul]

I agree, Kung Lek. However, I have occasionally learned or developed techniques that allowed me to take down fellow students, or the rare REAL adversary, down in as little as two moves. Until they start watching for it, that is.

It is not common, it is difficult, and not all techniques will work on every opponant. But it can be done.

Anyway, I need to get off these forums and get to class. Have a good day :)

[MeatTosser]

Very nice post Kung Lek. :)

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
There are very few reality fighters who are any good and those that are generally have tasted from codified systems and are not random at all in their approach to fighting. Or, they are innately talented. Which reality fighters do you consider to be good? Which ones do you think have no skill?

[ShaolinTiger00]

LMAO because I just spent 4 hours getting beat up by the Rua Bros. of Chute Boxe..

[David Jamieson]

Which reality fighters do you consider to be good? Which ones do you think have no skill?

lol, the top list would consist of a lot of guys to list. The bottom list would literally be thousands of people. THere is a lot of people into it afterall.

I really don't have time to cover them all. :p

And there are likely even many more thousands who are not on anyones radar.

anyhoo, who knows if you and I even share a concrete perspective on what reality fighters are. :)

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Kung Lek

anyhoo, who knows if you and I even share a concrete perspective on what reality fighters are. :) A few reality fighters I consider to he highly skilled and effective fighters... Anotnio "Minotaro" Nogiera, Mirco Crop-Cop, Fedor, Vanderlei Silva, Frank Shamrock, BJ Penn, Matt Hughes, Jens Pulver, Yves Edwards, Randy Couture, Pequeno Nogiera.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
There are very few reality fighters who are any good

Originally posted by Kung Lek
lol, the top list would consist of a lot of guys to list. . :) Can you say, "contradictory"?

[Pork Chop]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
LMAO because I just spent 4 hours getting beat up by the Rua Bros. of Chute Boxe..


And they're LUCKY I got snowed in; or else I woulda.... bled all over 'em.... and I'm sure my frost bitten fingers woulda wreaked havoc with their sun drenched brazilian skin.... woulda been murder i tell yah! MURDER!

so how'd that go anyway?