Strongfortism and the martial artist

[Andy62]

http://ejmas.com/pt/ptart_brennan_0902.htm

[Chief Fox]

I'm glad the century old workout routine is working for that guy.

Wow.... just wow.

[Samurai Jack]

Yeah, if I started working out with four pound dumbbells exclusively, I'd most likely never get injured. I'd also never experience any real strength building benifits either. Now if endurance is your goal... well that's another story. Anyone here remember "Heavy Hands" exercises?

[Toby]

I couldn't read the article. It hurt too much. I got not much further than "My friend was lifting using a system of heavy weights for low reps. For example, he would press 50% of his body weight five times ..." :(

I skimmed the rest, but even that hurt.

I expect nothing less from you Andy62.

[Samurai Jack]

Well I'm glad I'm not the only one who notices. Andy, why, oh why do you insist on posting such obviously incorrect information? I gather that you're not trying to troll, like most people who purposely post stuff like this, but if you've really been training with these methods for years, you already know it's just hype. Why do you keep posting articles written by charletans and hucksters from the 1890's? Do you think if people start believeing you it'll somehow negate your lack of results? I honestly don't get it.

:confused:

[IronFist]

I got bored after the second word in that article. I scrolled down and saw a pic, tho. Can I have the Cliff's Notes?

[Vash]

Dude was sucking in his gut.

[Toby]

Originally posted by IronFist
Can I have the Cliff's Notes? **** you're lazy.

Heavy lifting:

(i) is dangerous. You'll hurt yourself because concentrating while lifting is hard.
(ii) makes you less flexible.
(iii) is useless for MAs.
(iv) will cause muscular imbalance.
(v) causes loss of endurance.
(vi) is boring.
(vii) won't give you "moving strength" like "Zen Judo, Aikido and Shotokan Karate" will.
(viii) will exacerbate imbalance due to defects or injury.

His advice: use 4lb dumbbells. When you get really good, progress to 5lb. You'll get really strong and be most excellent at MA. You'll solve all 8 of the shortcomings of heavy lifting, and you won't have to lift heavy like his friend, who is so strong he benches 50% of his own bodyweight.

The article is so incorrect it makes me cry.

[Andy62]

I think we have a lot of mind locked people here. Try new things- open your minds. Weights are right for a lot of people,but maybe not for you -see what works. Many martial artist including Renzo Gracie do not recommend weights. Be creative,-be strong, have the courage to leave the crowd-your strength is in your mind.

[Toby]

All 8 of the guy's points are myths perpetuated by people like you.

Heavy lifting:

(i) is dangerous. You'll hurt yourself because concentrating while lifting is hard.
(ii) makes you less flexible.
(iii) is useless for MAs.
(iv) will cause muscular imbalance.
(v) causes loss of endurance.
(vi) is boring.
(vii) won't give you "moving strength" like "Zen Judo, Aikido and Shotokan Karate" will.
(viii) will exacerbate imbalance due to defects or injury.

(i) if you have the attention-span of a goldfish. Driving a car is dangerous if you don't concentrate too.
(ii) if you don't stretch, sure. If you do stretch like you should, no problem. If you don't lift and don't stretch, you'll be inflexible too.
(iii) strength is useless? Right.
(iv) if you only bench. OTOH if you bench, squat, deadlift, Olympic lift, etc you'll end up as balanced as you want. Tailor your routine to how you want to perform/look.
(v) sure. Not doing endurance will cause loss of endurance. Look at Ironfist. But doing strength with endurance on the side won't cause loss of endurance. OTOH doing endurance while not doing strength will cause loss of strength.
(vi) opinion.
(vii) whatever.
(viii) why? use dumbbells or one-handed/legged lifts if you want to focus on one area.

Sooo much crap in that article. As I said earlier, I expect nothing less from you.

As to your Renzo comment, :rolleyes: I addressed that yesterday or the day before didn't I?

[Ford Prefect]

Originally posted by Andy62
Many martial artist including Renzo Gracie do not recommend weights. Be creative,-be strong, have the courage to leave the crowd-your strength is in your mind.

Please stop saying this. I already posted proof that Renzo lifts weights regularly. Having personally trained with him, I've also heard this info first hand.

Being open-minded is one thing. I think you'd find that a lot of us have incorporated or still incorporate a wide variety of methods in our training and see usefullness even in those that we don't use. Listenning to obviously bad information is another thing. What your posting is akin to articles about how the world is really flat.

[Andy62]

That is not true. I am not saying that Renzo Gracie has never lifted weights,but that in not what he says is the most important type of training.

"Mastering Jujitsu" by Renzo Gracie page 209, "It makes perfect sense, to think of exercise that involves the movement of your own bodyweight [and to a lesser degree, that of your opponenet's] as the most important form of conditioning for the MMA fighter. Thus it is calisthenics[exercises that involve the movement of your own body weight] that has consistantly proven to be the most important form of conditioning for the jujitsu fighter. Always remember : if you gain weight, you have to carry that extra weight as you move during the course of the fight, with the result you will tire more quickly."

[Ford Prefect]

Not what he told me and not what he said in an interview. It was in a book that was most likely written for him based off his dicatations... Big deal. Yeah. We're the oned with the closed minds... lol!

[rubthebuddha]

where in that quote of renzo did he advocate not using weights, as your quotes allege? the quote simply states that doing calisthenics was the best way to do it. i question whether or not the intention of this quote has come across properly, as most people who would read a book by renzo are going to be recreational martial artists. most people who train with renzo are the ones to whom he'd give advice that would make them a notch above the basic, recreational stylists.

and to address his line about weights, i'll offer a question to some other forumites:

Ford: how much weight have you gained when on PTP?
Iron: how much weight have you gained when on PTP?
Toby: how much weight have you gained when on PTP?
Jack: how much weight have you gained when on PTP?

[Abstract]

"..After my morning session of Strongfortism, I feel (and look) much more limber than before. "

huh? how do you LOOK more flexible?

LOOK everybody!! it's REED RICHARDS!!:D :p :rolleyes:



yo--if you wanna do this, then fine--some exersice is better than none

i guess

[Bluejay]

Different strokes for different folks!

[Reggie1]

Originally posted by Andy62
That is not true. I am not saying that Renzo Gracie has never lifted weights,but that in not what he says is the most important type of training.

"Mastering Jujitsu" by Renzo Gracie page 209, "It makes perfect sense, to think of exercise that involves the movement of your own bodyweight [and to a lesser degree, that of your opponenet's] as the most important form of conditioning for the MMA fighter. Thus it is calisthenics[exercises that involve the movement of your own body weight] that has consistantly proven to be the most important form of conditioning for the jujitsu fighter. Always remember : if you gain weight, you have to carry that extra weight as you move during the course of the fight, with the result you will tire more quickly."

Does anybody else notice how this excerpt is talking about the most important form of conditioning?

Conditioning isn't strength. They are two separate things.

Conditioning for fighting is an overall process that gets you in good fighting shape. This involves not just strength but also stamina / endurance.

Pure strength training is just that. Stuff to get you stronger. Renzo could advocate that the best way to CONDITION yourself for fighting is to do bodyweight exercises, but that has nothing to do with Renzo being against weightlifting.

[Ford Prefect]

Good point, Reggie. Like BWE circuits to replicate in fight conditions.

[Andy62]

I guess we are getting into sematics,but to me conditioning means the whole process[strength, endurance, timing,flexibility etc] Stuff flys over the internet and in casual conversations,but when someone publishes a statement in a copyrighted book that is widely distributed he takes ownereship of that statement and it is his responsibility to see it is correct. I think there is some clintonesque type squirming here trying the fit the statemnet into the belief structure.

I agree weights are the preferred method of training for top athletes in most sports,but not for everybody. All I am trying to show is some flexibility. Here is another to MMA competitor that uses bodyweight:

Fedor Emelianenko (Pride Heavyweight Champ) did a 2 hour online interview the other day and he says he doesn't like weights but only uses his own bodyweight and the resistance offered by partners in wrestling practice.

Q: Is it true that you don't use weights in your training (weightlifting)?
A: Yes, that's truth.

Q: Which is the best strength training?
A: With an opponent and with your own body.

[rubthebuddha]

fact of the matter is, these are exceptions to the standard. the vast majority of professional athletes use weights as an integral part their training. using only body weight will get you results, but for maximum results, you have to go beyond body weight. since most want the best results they can get, and they consider the financial obligation and additional focus on safety to be negligible, particularly when held in contrast to the benefits of weights, the wind naturally pushes the cat-tail toward the gym.

[Samurai Jack]

Originally posted by Andy62
I agree weights are the preferred method of training for top athletes in most sports

Then WTF is the point trying to convince everyone to give up traditional weight training and try all of these other lame methods? Ever stop to think that there's a reason weight training is "the preferred method"?

[IronFist]

If you don't lift heavy you're not going to develop strength. That's the only way it works. You can lift 4lb dumbells all day and it won't increase your max in any lift at all.

[Andy62]

I totally agree-the only way to get maximum size and strength is by training with weights. At the same time the guy who can lift the most weight isn't always the guy who is best in a fight. It seems to me that for a fighter a desired quality is "wiry strength."
We have all seen it where a guy who isn't that big or the best lifter may in fact be the toughest. It seems that some of the best ways to develop wiry strength are with strands, isometrics, calsithenics and resistance exercises. Kettlebells are also a good way to develop this qualtity. For some people these alternate types of exercise are a good way to supplement weights and for others [although admittedly a minority] they are used as a stand alone system . Andy

[rubthebuddha]

define "wiry strength," because everyone i've heard mention it described it in that vague fashion in which people describe how they want to be "tone."

wiry is typically a body type. like sevenstar's ability to grow simply by looking at something heavy and ironfist's lack of ability to grow at all, a wiry body type is something people are born with. typically, they can't leave it. they have a difficult time putting on mass, yet can still be very strong. how did they get this body type? ask their parents which genes they donated.

no one is saying that such exercises are a bad thing. we're just saying that for the vast majority of strength goals, weights are the best method of achievement. keep in mind that your body doesn't know the difference between different flavors of resistance. it just knows it's being stressed, and it adapts.

[Andy62]

I agree although there ,but there do seem to be some differences. I think strands develop a different muscle quality than weights as they give more of an isokenetic type of resistance. There is no doubt that genetics are king and none of us are going to get beyond our genetic limits.

[Ford Prefect]

I think that about sums it up, folks!

One more time:

http://www.sherdog.com/interviews/renzogracie_01/gracie.htm

Renzo says he lifts weights... When I trained with Renzo, he said he lifts weights. Have you ever spoken with Renzo or regularly trained at a school run by a Blackbelt from Brazil? If you have talked with him, then you'd know you stand on dubious ground at best for insisiting that Renzo is reponsible for everything in an english-language book. If you've ever trained at a Brazilian BB BJJ academy, then you know that BWE circuits and different partner carries are regularly used for conditioning especially in tournament prep classes. You know what that means? It means that people have found *GASP* endurance exercises help devolop endurance better than maximal strength exercises.

Jeepers Crow, Batman! Who would have thunk? Does that mean that lifting weights isn't part of Renzo's routine? Nope. He says otherwise. Does that mean that maximal strength developed lifting weights doesn't help on the mat? Nope. Experienced folks and science says otherwise.

BTW, the strand pulling thing says a lot about your utter disregard for logical thought or scientific evidence.

[abobo]

I totally agree-the only way to get maximum size and strength is by training with weights. At the same time the guy who can lift the most weight isn't always the guy who is best in a fight. It seems to me that for a fighter a desired quality is "wiry strength."
We have all seen it where a guy who isn't that big or the best lifter may in fact be the toughest. It seems that some of the best ways to develop wiry strength are with strands, isometrics, calsithenics and resistance exercises. Kettlebells are also a good way to develop this qualtity. For some people these alternate types of exercise are a good way to supplement weights and for others [although admittedly a minority] they are used as a stand alone system . Andy


Is wiry strength the quality of being strong without being big? Many people get that from weights. That's the idea Pavel used to become so popular.

I don't know where you are going with this - first you say we are "mind locked" by not liking the article, then you give a nod to types of training that aren't in the article.

Anyway, with that guy's woes I could have seen him becoming a clubbell or kettlebell junkie.



Originally posted by Andy62
I agree although there ,but there do seem to be some differences. I think strands develop a different muscle quality than weights as they give more of an isokenetic type of resistance. There is no doubt that genetics are king and none of us are going to get beyond our genetic limits.

What are strands? Is that a band or cable exercise? Isokinetic means the speed of contraction is constant.

Why are you now bowing to genetics?

[Samurai Jack]

Originally posted by abobo
Why are you now bowing...?

Because the guy recognizes that he's been OWNED!

[Andy62]

Well ofcourse genetics deterimine everything. No matter what method of training you use genetics will determine your upper limit.

Hey, I am not going by rumors,heresay and internet information -Gracie says it plainly in the book. He is on record even if it conflicts with somebody's belief structure. That book is widely distributed and read. I came across it on another web site.

I am not against weights,but let's not get cult like about it.

[Samurai Jack]

Originally posted by Andy62
I think there is some clintonesque type squirming here trying the fit the statemnet into the belief structure.

[Andy62]

Certainly nobody can disagree with that

[rubthebuddha]

gracie doesn't say ANYTHING about weights, according to the quote you provided. he says this:


It makes perfect sense, to think of exercise that involves the movement of your own bodyweight [and to a lesser degree, that of your opponenet's] as the most important form of conditioning for the MMA fighter. Thus it is calisthenics[exercises that involve the movement of your own body weight] that has consistantly proven to be the most important form of conditioning for the jujitsu fighter. Always remember : if you gain weight, you have to carry that extra weight as you move during the course of the fight, with the result you will tire more quickly. he's talking about conditioning, and considering how long many matches, be it bjj, muay thai, boxing, whatever, can go, i'll plainly put money on the line that renzo is talking about endurance when he (supposedly) mentions conditioning.

back to my original point -- the quote says NOTHING about weight work. it simply means that additional weight must be carried. lifting weights won't necessarily make you big, as we've pointed out time and again. even pavel, who you have also quoted, is tiny by most weightlifting standards, but he could outlift most lifters who outweigh him by 50 lbs.

let's get out the basics:

1. renzo's quote says nothing about weightlifting
2. renzo's quote mentions "conditioning," which is normally viewed by people as endurance. the expression "conditioning is key" for winning fights means that, if you run out of gas after one round, your screwed.
3. ford has first-person record of renzo's training habits.
4. ford provided a interview from renzo as well, one that simply says this: "Renzo Gracie: I do everyday a lot of boxing and weight lifting."
5. you're stuck on exceptions. even if renzo didn't do weights, he'd be the rare exception, not the standard. professional athletes who don't lift are either called oddities, benchwarmers or marathoners.

[Andy62]

I agree we are talking about exceptions.

I couldn't get that link to the interview Ford provided to open.

[abobo]

Originally posted by Andy62
Well ofcourse genetics deterimine everything. No matter what method of training you use genetics will determine your upper limit.

Hey, I am not going by rumors,heresay and internet information -Gracie says it plainly in the book. He is on record even if it conflicts with somebody's belief structure. That book is widely distributed and read. I came across it on another web site.

I am not against weights,but let's not get cult like about it.


I say, what is your point??? How do genetics support or refute anything said thus far? It looks like you are trying to say that such and such is better than weights, but then say that you aren't against weights.

If you are just throwing this stuff around for discussion to show "flexibility" as you claimed, then why are you clinging to this quote and defending a position that is against weights?

[Andy62]

Because the quote is there. To me it is pretty obvious,but we all have to interpret things through our own eyes. I think exercise and conditioning are not a one size fits all thing. While weights will be right for most people there will be exceptions and that is what makes this stuff interesting. Each individual will have to experiment and see what works for them.

[rubthebuddha]

then what part of your quote even implies renzo doesn't lift? i'm still waiting for you to address this.

your whole argument seems to be based on the notion that renzo says he doesn't lift, which he does not say. he doesn't even mention weights at all -- only extra mass, which can be added by lifting in specific ways, by not being in shape in the first place (and not having what he seems to be addressing with the term "conditioning"). if you're in good "condition, you're lean and don't have unnecessary bulk. being strong from lifting weights is in no way bulky. being big from lifting weights is. strong and big are two exclusive concepts and do not always coincide.

[Andy62]

Yes,but he specifically mentions and recommends calisthenics. Usually articles by guys that lift weights mention that in the article. Size at some point ,whether it is muscular weight or not, becomes a cardivascular disadvanvantage. That is to a large extent what Pavel's concepts are based on. You don't train a soldier like an athlete-soldiers are trained to endure more while athletes are as Pavel says trained in "green house environments." The average size of a a US Army Ranger id 5' 10" and 165 pounds-that is an ideal weight for endurance and mobility. It seems to me that is what Gracie is saying too.
While there are some extreme ectomorphic body types that don't; it has been my experience that most people will gain weight from weight training.

[Samurai Jack]

I think there is some clintonesque type squirming here trying the fit the statemnet into the belief structure. - Andy62

[rubthebuddha]

then what part of your quote even implies renzo doesn't lift? i'm still waiting for you to address this.
Yes,but he specifically mentions and recommends calisthenics. i'm still waiting for you to address it.

middle-school PE teachers recommend calithsenics. everyone who knows a pushup from a hole in the ground would suggest that they're good for people (pushups, not holes). fact of the matter is, you said renzo does not recommend weights, which you have yet to show anything resembling backup for this. no one cares if renzo likes calithsenics. no one really cares if he likes weights. but you claimed he doesn't, as part of your crusade to convince people of the validity of olde-tyme strength exercises and bodyweight work, and you were WRONG. period. next time you try to convince someone of something, make sure your backup evidence is at least 1. correct, and 2. related.

[Andy62]

Man, you are blocking reality. I have never seem such dancing and dodging. If someone can't interpret what he said they are doing serious blocking. That quote is all over the internet and people are interpreting it the same way that I am.

That book is one of the hottest sellers in tha martial arts field. Renzo has made his statement and it is far beyond the internet.

[Vash]

Originally posted by Andy62
Man, you are blocking reality. I have never seem such dancing and dodging. If someone can't interpret what he said they are doing serious blocking. That quote is all over the internet and people are interpreting it the same way that I am.

That book is one of the hottest sellers in tha martial arts field. Renzo has made his statement and it is far beyond the internet.

And yet nothing therein says "Renzo sez waits suxors!!!11!1"

You suck and should be sterilized.

Thus have I spoken, thus shall it be done.

[IronFist]

Look at me contribute to this thread!!!11!!1!1!!!oneone!!1!!!!

[rubthebuddha]

ironfist -- you do realize your post is more logical than anything andy's ever posted on this forum, right?

andy -- if you think you're right, then prove us wrong. be a big boy, converse like adults do and offer evidence that actually supports your argument. otherwise, why don't you go find a different forum. i'm sick of your trolling.

[Andy62]

I am trying to find out the truth for myself. That site that Ford posted is a dead site with no article there- I just tried it again All I am going on is Gracies' quote. I have found another book on Gracies' training and I have just ordered it. The co-author has a backgound in weight training so maybe you are right. The delivery date is estimated to be 10 business days. I will let you know when it comes and what it says.

If he does use weights that quote is sure misleading.

[Vash]

Sweet Baby Jebus

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[rubthebuddha]

no andy, the quote is not misleading. it specifically says that conditioning is most important. the next time you step in the ring and fight competitively, you'll either be thankful you trained very hard, or you'll be ****ed because you ran out of gas and lost the fight due to poor conditioning. conditioning is not calisthenics, yet calisthenics can be a contributor to conditioning.

and no, ford's link is not a dead page. the specific quote is
Stephen Martinez: You look in good shape, even without fighting since Pride 21. How is your training routine?
Renzo Gracie: I do everyday a lot of boxing and weight lifting. Swimming also, it helps me out with the cardio. give it up. we don't care who exercised what in the 1890s. we care what the best lifters of this time do to get their results. if it's the same, that's great. if it's not, try and guess which one people will coose when they want the best results they can get.

[Vash]

Dayum, RTB just brought the correct.

Again.

[Toby]

Originally posted by rubthebuddha
Toby: how much weight have you gained when on PTP?-30lb :p.

[rubthebuddha]

fatass!

[abobo]

Originally posted by Andy62
Because the quote is there. To me it is pretty obvious,but we all have to interpret things through our own eyes. I think exercise and conditioning are not a one size fits all thing. While weights will be right for most people there will be exceptions and that is what makes this stuff interesting. Each individual will have to experiment and see what works for them.

Look, I know this sounds like a flame war, but here is the problem:

1) The Strongfort article is pretty weak
2) The Strongfort course is inferior to more modern methods
3) I don't think anyone said that conditioning is one-size-fits- all. What was said is that there are many facets to conditioning, and Strongfortism isn't very good for the improvement of any of them. However, where strength is concerned, the strongest people in the world lift weights (heavier than 4lbs). Why? Because the load is something you can't always get from all the other exercises you mentioned.
4) It is glaringly obvious to everyone but you that you have misapplied the quote from the book, and it seems silly to keep pretending otherwise. If you agree that weights will be right for most people, then constantly coming back to the quote makes me think that you want a flame war.

[Andy62]

I am really not that passionate abiout it. Exercise and the type you do is an individual choice and not something I see with religious ferver. The Strongfort article was written by a martial artist and on various boards I have seen others who say they have benefited by that type of training. In actuality Strongfort was a natural and lifted heavy weights. Everybody has an axe to grind. I have seen statements by Furey that the Russian wrestlers train with bodyweight only. Truth is that Furey started out pushing weights. Pavel claims they train with kettlebells. I just throw out the ideas and let people choose what they want. If anyone is only using one method of strength training today I think they are limiting themselves as weights, bodyweight, strands,kettlebells,etc all have something to offer to some individuals.

[Andy62]

http://www.sandowplus.co.uk/Competition/Strongfort/advanced/advancedcourse/advcourse.htm.

[Andy62]

http://www.sandowplus.co.uk/Competition/Strongfort/advanced/advancedcourse/advcourse.htm

[Andy62]

I can't get the url to transfer. Go to www.sandow.plus.com and go to the Strongfort section and then to the advanced course.

[IronFist]

Ford's link works fine. Either your browser sucks or you're lyring.

[Andy62]

I just tried it again and I can't make it work. Maybe it is my browser.

[rubthebuddha]

not his browser. i think his security is set so that it blocks out any page that has the correct in it. that might also explain why i'm not getting answers to my questions regarding his magical quote.