Traditional Protocol

[joedoe]

I was wondering what the traditional protocol is surrounding acceptance as a closed-door student. More to the point, how does the student stand when the sifu passes on? Are they free to seek another master? Or are they bound to the one master (in the sense of becoming a closed-door student)?

[IronFist]

If they were bound to him, how would they learn after he passes on?

[joedoe]

Originally posted by IronFist
If they were bound to him, how would they learn after he passes on?

This is all part of my question. I don't know what the proper protocol is, so I don't know if it is actually an issue, or whether common sense applies.

I assume that when a master passes on his disciples are free to become disciples of a different master, but I don't know what the done thing is.

[FuXnDajenariht]

how bout you do what you want to? ;)

[joedoe]

Originally posted by FuXnDajenariht
how bout you do what you want to? ;)

There is a very good reason why I ask and it is not just for me. It affects a group of us, and we want to make sure that we are following the proper protocol. If it weren't important to us to do so, then we would have just done our own thing already.

[MoreMisfortune]

Originally posted by FuXnDajenariht
how bout you do what you want to? ;)

yessss...
that is the power of the darkside
gonna play the *****es, they DESERVE it

[Pork Chop]

joedoe

*paraphrased from a convo with a friend who knows*

when your sifu passes, you're still a student.
but it's common for a person to have many sifus.
just because you baisi doesn't mean you can't learn elsewhere.
many times a student outgrows his sifu and needs to move on.
But you don't do yourself any favors by taking on another obligation- obligation to one sifu's hard enough, imagine 2 or more. hehe
just because your sifu passed, doesn't mean you need to stop learning.
at the same time, when you have a new sifu, doesn't mean you should no longer honor the one that passed.
the only rude thing would be to totally forget your old sifu after going to a new sifu.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by BMore Banga
joedoe

*paraphrased from a convo with a friend who knows*

when your sifu passes, you're still a student.
but it's common for a person to have many sifus.
just because you baisi doesn't mean you can't learn elsewhere.
many times a student outgrows his sifu and needs to move on.
But you don't do yourself any favors by taking on another obligation- obligation to one sifu's hard enough, imagine 2 or more. hehe
just because your sifu passed, doesn't mean you need to stop learning.
at the same time, when you have a new sifu, doesn't mean you should no longer honor the one that passed.
the only rude thing would be to totally forget your old sifu after going to a new sifu.

Thank you for that. I guess my question is whether it is OK to baisi with a new sifu after your sifu passes on. I know you don't have to stop learning after your sifu passes on. In fact I think most sifus would want you to find a new sifu and keep training after they are gone.

There is no danger of forgetting my old sifu. Firstly, he was a most remarkable man. Secondly, he was my new sifu's father.

I would never baisi to more than one living sifu. To me that is wrong.

[Pork Chop]

yah u can baisi, not rude.

[joedoe]

Thanks for clearing that up for me. Appreciate it :)

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by joedoe
Thank you for that. I guess my question is whether it is OK to baisi with a new sifu after your sifu passes on. I know you don't have to stop learning after your sifu passes on. In fact I think most sifus would want you to find a new sifu and keep training after they are gone.

There is no danger of forgetting my old sifu. Firstly, he was a most remarkable man. Secondly, he was my new sifu's father.

I would never baisi to more than one living sifu. To me that is wrong.

if your new sifu is the son of your old sifu, that mean the two of the two of you were originally the same generation. It is not proper by confucian standard for a senior student of the same generation to take in a fellow student as his own student. This would in essence make the son and father the "same generation". so, this is frawn upon. by officially baishi, you are entering into a father and son relationship (master and apprentice, etc). so, if you enter into the same relationship with the son, this is a bit ...

just my 2 cents. since you don't live in a confucian society and we are only talking about learning kung-fu, it is technically not that serious of an issue.

In the old days, a lot of school were taught by the senior students. so, even know many youngers students were taught by the senior students, they were still "brothers". If it is all possible, may be he could teach you guys as the senior students (like an older brother taking over the household when the father passed away).

In buddhist/taoist school, if a senior student take in student "B" (of same generation) as a student (baishi), then student "B" 's relationship with the original teacher is considered to be dissolved. As there is a generational conflict and the new baishi ceremony in essence nullify the previous.

just letting you know how things are done sometime. it is up to you to determine what is the best for your situation.

[FuXnDajenariht]

just seems to me all great kung fu artist used to cross train, and these were creators of styles and family lineage holders. im too tired ta think of any names [insert famous kung fu legend here] [here] [and here]. think about how many cma styles are cross-bred with one another. good instructors know the importance of studying different arts. you know... its always wise to look at alternative solutions no matter what it is. blah blah blah end fortune cookie moment....

after saying all of that. just do what you feel. :D

[omarthefish]

Basically...what Wandering Monk said.

If the new guy is you Shifu's son than baishi makes no sense at all. Not only is it inappropriate it's completely unneccesary. Assuming he's been training longer than you he's already your "da shixiong" and you guys are already "family". I say "assuming" because the Shifu's son could hypothetically even be your junior and should be studying with YOU. Yang Cheng Fu was a famous example of this. After his father passed away he had to go and train under non-family members to get become worthy of the lineage.

Another question was indirectly raised about having multiple Shifu's where it wasn't necessarily as obvious a case as having your Shifu pass on. That really depends somewhat on the degree of formality and traditionalism of the Shifu. Many great masters have had multiple Shifu's but it is extremely bad form to go out and do that on your own. What happens traditionally is that your own Shifu would introduce you to someone else who had something to offer that you needed to learn. It could be because someone (shifu Or student) had to move or because the Shifu in question made an honest decision that you could learn something in particular better from someonw else.

This doesn't apply so much for less formal teacher-student relationships. But if there has been a baishi ceremony then that's different.

[SPJ]

Yes, one may have multiple teachers at different time.

Usually you are with one teacher at a time. So that you have a focus. The teachers may share you but usually training would be in different areas.

If you inherited your teacher's close door discipline, you are obliged to pass on and if you are good, you have to refine and include your own learning and add to the pool.

Your new relationship with new teacher does not change that.

And yes, you may include new learning into old learning.

Cheng Ting Hua included Shuai Jiao into Ba Gua. He is the favorite student of Dong Hai Zhuan. Cheng learned Shuai Jiao first.

Zhang Xiang San is the inheritor of Ding Tzi Cheng Liu He Tang Lang.

Master Liu knew Liu He but he only taught Ba Ji.

etc.

[David Jamieson]

I think a lot of protocol is confused and diminished with presupposition.

Although their are similarities, there are a great many diferences around.

Some teachers refuse the students to study elsewhere, others are open to it, some are formal and the formality is drawn upon from the analects and personal experience, some are rigidly formal, some less so and some not formal at all.

If no codified protocol was left for you to follow, then there is no protocol to follow.

Sometimes, I have seen when a teacher passes, that the students go off in all directions. Some pick up the banner, some don't bother. Sometimes teachers will declare an heir to their style and other times not.

I am sure that will know what to do with yourself. You will either choose to continue without reservation, lead or follow. Ultimately you must take responsibility for yourself and enjoy or accept any consequences good or bad that follow you. Regardless of what you choose to do.

[mickey]

Greetings,

Bai see to your master's son? Ridiculous! As stated before on this thread you are already family. If he is requiring this of you, I can only suspect it is for economic benefit. You are the same generation he is. His obligation is that the present generation, that is you and the other members of your generation, be strong enough (skill, technique, knowledge) to teach the next. By having you guys bai see to him, that obligation is removed. You are in one very weird situation.

In the end, it is totally your call.

By the way, there is no precedent for this kind of conduct.

mickey

[hasayfu]

Just adding to what folks have said.

If you are wondering about your Sifu's son, you should not baisi to him. You are already inside student/family. The son is now head of household and you should support him. Liekwise, he should include you in the family affairs. You don't call your brother your father now.

On the otherhand, a few newly elevated head of households get a little power hungry. In these cases. the other brothers either accept it or start their own household.

For teachers in a different style/family, you are free to do what you want. You still have an obligation to your original family and now the new. Also, if the new teacher does not require a baisi, then you are not obligated to him. While the details differ from person to person, the protocol follows a basic concept.

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
I think a lot of protocol is confused and diminished with presupposition.

Although their are similarities, there are a great many diferences around.

Some teachers refuse the students to study elsewhere, others are open to it, some are formal and the formality is drawn upon from the analects and personal experience, some are rigidly formal, some less so and some not formal at all.

If no codified protocol was left for you to follow, then there is no protocol to follow.

[Serpent]

I agree with what Omar said. However, there is no way that you should baisi to your teacher's son if he is the same generation as you.

[SPJ]

Agreed.

Both you and the son study from the same teacher which is the father.

The son maybe the linage bearer.

Or the senior student may be the bearer. Or whoever the teacher designated.

[David Jamieson]

You're going to have to kill the son now. At the gates of the Shaolin Temple in front of the rest of his family.

Then point at yourself with your thumbs and say a bunch of stuff about how everyone must follow you now while anonymous men and weeping women carry away the limp and lifeless body of your defeated foe.

I'm sorry...but that's what must be done...it's teh only way.

:p

[SPJ]

LOL;

All the students and the son study and practice together all the time.

Everybody knows who is better and who is not.

If the son decided to carry his father place, and yes, by all means, as a student and out of respect, LEAVE the school.

:p

[joedoe]

OK, yes it is a different and very complicated situation. I have studied under my late sifu's son since the first day, and only did the bai si because my teacher (the sifu's son) was not taking disciples and had given his permission for me to bai si with his father.

So my current teacher has always been my 'sifu' for practical purposes.

It is not a question of power-hunger, money-making, or politics. There is no requirement to bai si. I guess I am wondering if there is a way to make things 'right' without 'breaking the rules'.

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by joedoe
OK, yes it is a different and very complicated situation. I have studied under my late sifu's son since the first day, and only did the bai si because my teacher (the sifu's son) was not taking disciples and had given his permission for me to bai si with his father.

So my current teacher has always been my 'sifu' for practical purposes.

It is not a question of power-hunger, money-making, or politics. There is no requirement to bai si. I guess I am wondering if there is a way to make things 'right' without 'breaking the rules'.

by traditional protocol, there is no way to resolve your situation that I know of. the only thing you can do is to honor your "instructor" as you would honor your teacher. The only thing that really count at the end is the heart. A good heart often is worth a lot more than protocol.

[David Jamieson]

A good heart often is worth a lot more than protocol.

kind of a weird trade off eh?
;)

[SPJ]

I do not know your particular situation well;

However, if the father and the son are both your teachers;

Then theoretically, the father is your Si Gong or teacher's teacher.

However, if you study mostly with the son, then he is your main teacher.

Bai Si "usually" means you are "officially" committed to it. It is a life time thing. And you are oligated to pass on the learning somehow. So that it does not end with you.

The son is your teacher. The father is still your Si Fu + Si Gong.

You are indoor student or Ru Men Di Tzi. You are the inside student or Men Shen.

And yes, you are to pass on the teachings one way or the other.

To be relieved of this oligation is to find a student and pass on all you know and let him carry on.

Then you may be free of this.

This is only a theory.

I do not know your situation well.

[WanderingMonk]

what is protocol?

chinese protocol are mainly derivative of confucian protocol.

confucius wanted to use "li" (etiquette or protocol) to regulate men's behaviors. these protocols set down the confucian ideal relationship between family, friends, ruler, vassel, etc..

it was believe that when men's characters fail, "li" no longer can regulate people and so they have to fall back on to laws.
social pressure can not insure men to do the right thing, so there must be codified punishment to motivate men to not do the wrong thing.

observance of protocol overtime has been ritualized. one judge another's level of committment/respect/sincerity by the numbers of hoops another is willing to jump through. In some sense, this is an outward display of "heart".

but, this was not its original goal.

men's actions are often a mixture of balancing heart and protocol.

confucian says: In the act of carrying out a faithful son's duty, the importance is in the heart and not in the display. If the importance is in the display, poor families don't have devoted sons (sometimes, they don't have the means to display their "hearts").

however, the behavior toward the opposite sex, the importance is in the act (behaving properly) and not necessarily the heart. If the importance is in the heart, there has never been gentlemen since the dawn of time.

[omarthefish]

I don't remember where I read it but I'm pretty sure it's in those analects somehwere...

There's supposed to like a kind of hierarchy of the best ways to "keep the peace in all the land".

Dao - when dao is lost there is still:
De (virtue) - when de is lost there is still:
Li (ritual and coutesy) - when li is lost there is still:
fa...or was is 'xing' (laws and punsihments) - when you lose that is all anarchy and evilness or somethingerother...

That was a VERY loose paraphrase of how I rememeber it. :D

[SPJ]

Good list.

Heart may also be Qin.

Yi is Just.

Li comes with Yi.

Fa (laws) needs to be with heart (Qin) and Li (reasons).

If there is no just, Li (protocol) is a fake.

If stick with Fa (laws) words by words without considering reasons (Li) and hearts (Qin), Fa is in vain.

In short, outside of Li (reasons) and Fa (laws) are Ren Qin (people's heart or compassion or empathy or if you put yourself in the same condition, what would you do?)